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Essia
08-04-2005, 04:51
I wonder how the Imperial Guards deploy their troopers once they made it to a planet they are going to fight in. It seems unlikely to bring the troops barge planet-side as the energy to take off/land would be extremely high. At the same time to deploy using smaller transport ships would also take forever considering how much resource needed to be moved.

Avenging Dentist
08-04-2005, 05:35
The Imperial Guard uses drop ships. It's not terrifically fast, though the sheer number of drop ships deployed makes it easy enough to get troops on the ground in a reasonable amount of time. Still, the Guard isn't designed for rapid maneuvers, but brute force. If you want rapid deployment, you'd go with the Space Marines, or failing that, a few Stormtroopers covertly deployed via Valkyrie.

Delicious Soy
08-04-2005, 05:42
Assault landers and bulk shuttles are the primary methods used. Assault landers are smaller, faster and are probably armed. Bulk landers are probably glorified flying bricks with a crap load of seats. When Ig arrive on a planet, especially one lacking fleet defense, they don't have to necessarily deploy straight into combat. Look at the Earth now. THere are many places where someone could deploy without needed immediate combat.

Marsekay
08-04-2005, 05:58
I think they had some scratch built bulk landers at GW HQ in a little diorama of cadians deplyiong from one during the EOT campaign, and yes it was a big flying brick with 2 huge doors at the front with everyone swarming out.

Essia
08-04-2005, 06:10
Cool! that's for clearing that up :)

Marsekay
08-04-2005, 06:25
I am trying to remember how big they were, all i really remember is a kid of triangular section at the front that opened up like 2 giant doors with a ramp that folded down, i cant really remember how bigmaybe the front was a foot high, and approx 8 inches wide? god knows how long the things were, i dont know if they were cropped for the diorama or not i dont remember, no doubt someone will come along and say my sizes were half as big as they actually were soon though.
EDIT: Btw the doors were hinged ala huge normal doors/gates, not like a landraiders assault ramp.

Rich
08-04-2005, 11:22
Think along the lines of the landing craft from Starship Troopers - that's always how I imagined the Guard deploying. I am sure that there are far larger landing craft at their disposal, but they would be for use strictly behind the lines. It's also worth remembering that escorts can supposedly land on a planet's surface according to BFG, so it may be that transport ships could set down dirt-side if necessary (I would imagine they would more often use their lighters though, for safety).

Sojourner
08-04-2005, 11:30
It varies hugely. For a beachhead, fast assault landers bring down droptroops and heavy weapons to create a perimeter. Depending on the size of the invasion, bigger shuttles, drop pods and even the heavy transports themselves will land at the dropzone. Large armoured formations are deployed by the starship carrying them simply landing at the LZ and rolling off like a ferry. In Deliverance, a landing zone is compromised and several bulk transports are destroyed on the ground.

To give an idea of scale, you'd be able to walk around inside a bulk transport model in 28mm. A destroyer to scale would be 23 metres long.

the_yuk
08-04-2005, 12:47
n more civiliased planet the elite troops would move to secure the massive orbital landing pads etc, to allow more troops and a greater turn around time.

milmot
08-04-2005, 12:50
I would think that each regiment's bulk transports would vary from planet to planet.

But i would imagine they would firstly deploy elite troops (maybe stormtroopers) from small, quick and fast drop ships/shuttles/pods to capture and secure a space port.

Then the big, slow and vulnerable bulk transports would ferry troops to the star port.

I'm guessing these bulk transports would be massive and would not be able to land just anywhere.

the_yuk
08-04-2005, 12:54
Yes they would most likely need a space port to land, as th e sheer power required to lift something that large into orbit would be impossible, considering the small escort ships of the imperial navy are so big they are buil in space. I mean its the imperial guard, not the orks so they just dont dump a lander on the ground and hope for the best, not careing for the retrievel of the vessel, ala. ork roks.

Delicious Soy
08-04-2005, 12:59
For establishing a erpimeter landing may not even be necessary, Valkyries modified to drop from orbit or marauders deployed from the fleet could simply drop them without the need for a vulnerable landing shuttle.

Sojourner
08-04-2005, 13:10
Well, this is just one person's interpretation, but some literature does have bulk transports landing in fields, so no, they don't necessarily need starports to touch down, though they might need the facilities to take off again.

Laspistol
08-04-2005, 13:11
You can see an IG bulk transport in the lastest codex. It can't remember what page it is, sorry. It's quite huge, though.

I'de imagine that Storm Troopers and various other kinds of drop troopers are the first waves, sent in for recon and holding ground. The operation would be supported by Navy fighters depolying from Dictator cruisers and the like.

I think having a starport to land at is going to help the logistical effort imensly, but many planets only have one or two of these, so while they are priority targets for sure they probably arn't the be all and end all of the assault.

If bulk transports are as large as we think they probably make their own LZs from their weight and the fury of their cushioning thrusters (if that is what they use). Since they are so large, and weapons in BFG are very potent, they likely can't be easily hurt by anything not on the macro scale, so are safe enough to land once somewhere has been secured.

I could see the Imperials quickly landing the stuff needed to make a starport soon after an LZ is secure, a la DoW's machine cult building.

Yay! Conjecture !

Sojourner
08-04-2005, 13:38
They'd definitely need firm, dry ground to land on otherwise they'll get some severe liquefaction and slumping. Also, odds are they can't use shields on a planet's surface so anything tank-sized and up might well be dangerous.

Laspistol
08-04-2005, 18:00
Okay, I can agree to needing the right kind of ground to support the ship. That makes good sense.

As to the actualy physical vulnerability of your average Imperial space craft we don't really know. Now, I theorize from what little information I have that they would not be harmed by anything below the mega-range. Macro-range weapons seem to be what is standard for ship-to-ship engagements in BFG so it's reasonable to conclude that a simple battlecannon or lascannon dosen't do a great deal unless it is at very close range.

As to sheilds I'de think it possible to have them on in atmosphere if they're void sheilds. If Titans, super-heavys, and important instilations can have their void-sheilds up I can't see why a ship couldn't.

I'de agree that for egress of troops the sheilds would have to come down, but any LZ that these things are going to is likely as secure as possible anyway. Thunderbolts, Lightning Strikes probably escort them in, and I can't see them not having area defence armament of some kind.

Now Gellar feilds they probably don't turn on unless their going into the warp, and they won't be doing that in a gravity well anyway.

mostholycerebus
08-04-2005, 18:11
After the marines establish a good sized beachhead, they start shipping down guardsmen in those brick things.

worldshatterer
08-04-2005, 18:42
I severely doubt that marines fight to secure beachheads for guard on a regualr basis. thats a role best suited to droptroop and stormtrooper regiments as these are vastly more expendable than the emperors chosen .

Nazguire
09-04-2005, 02:31
I severely doubt that marines fight to secure beachheads for guard on a regualr basis. thats a role best suited to droptroop and stormtrooper regiments as these are vastly more expendable than the emperors chosen .

Agreed, that is what the Stormtrooper Squads that are trained in the thousands. After all lose a regiment of them, several hundred more to call upon before they begin to worry. Lose a Company of Space Marines and you've just lost 100 years of growth, history and abililties.

I picture Drop Troop Regiments mainly to break up a major enemy formation, secure enemy HQ command centres etc, not forming beach heads, they aren't really designed for the holding and fortifying that is necessary to hold a large area of ground without sufficient external support.

Rich
09-04-2005, 10:42
I would think that each regiment's bulk transports would vary from planet to planet.

I would have thought that all bulk transports would be under the control of the navy and not the guard, therefore meaning standardised designs.

I agree with the principle of first wave being deployed via grav chute, valkyrie etc. to secure a beachhead before the big trnsports go down - although for smaller actions (one or two regiments) they may well just have armoured drop ships which can be protected en-route by navy fighters and then rely on their bul and amour to protect them for the short time that their troops are deploying. Imperial designs are quite rugged, and I doub that troops would make combat drops very often - that is more the Space Marine's forte.

Also, don't forget orbital bombardment - supporting warships could effectively keep the enemy's heads down with suppression salvoes until the forces are ready to engage in any case.

Laspistol
09-04-2005, 19:58
I'de imagine that any Naval bombardment is strategic rather than tactical. It's unweildy, inacuarate, and not easy to do by any stretch. I wouldn't rely on it for the type of close support an assault landing would need, and is certainl;y wouldn't be brought down near disembarking troops. It is too easy to hit friendlies that way.

The primary source of drop support is going to be from Navy transatmospheric squadrons. Marauder bobmbers would likely do the tactical support fire drop troops would need. Lightning Strikes would fly a cab rank to support the first waves with close air support while Thunderbolts and Lightnings go for air supremacy and engaging targets of opportunity.

Space Marines are rare and they arn't going to follow every Imperial effort just waiting to make planetfall. The job is up to the Drop Troops, there the only ones who can drop in with enough equipment to hold something until releived. Marines don't often stay once the job is done. If the Astartes is still around after they've destroyed their target something is wrong.

the_yuk
10-04-2005, 10:51
True the air support makes good sense, the thing i would liket o know is once those huge bulk transports land ont he ground how they take off again. In my opinion the resourse needed to construct one would not warrent leaveing it on the ground and abbandoning it.

Sai-Lauren
11-04-2005, 09:59
It varies hugely.
The words 40k fluff was built on. ;)

Well, going with the Tanith for a minute (ok, but everyone else seems to start with magically creating several regiments on a planet), they've been engaged in storm assaults (Corbec's story in GhostMaker), organised landings which came under fire (Sabbat Martyr), re-deploying from landing fields to reinforce an existing conflict (Necropolis and Straight Silver), and uncontested landings (First and Only), so my view would be that the normal guard regiments use what ever their commanders decide they should use, depending on the mission profile, defences and troops involved - so on one planet they could use assault shuttles with navy fighters providing CAS, next time they could be dropped in as support troops in the dropshop of a titan legion, then shuttled down in heavy lifters to a secure staging point for re-deployment to a protracted campaign, then dropped by unpowered glider to secure strategic positions (ala D-Day and Operation Market Garden).

Specialised drop equipment (Valkyries, grav-chutes and maybe even guard drop pods) would be Stormtroopers only, so they can drop in, clear an area and hold it long enough for normal troops to land and relieve them before they're overwhelmed, exhausted and out of ammo - if the local commander has marine support available, they may also be sent in with the stormtroopers (possibly even before, so the STs reinforce them).

Sojourner
11-04-2005, 10:03
I wouldn't have thought so regarding marines. If it were me, I'd save them for the tough nuts the stormtroopers can't crack. Use your first wave to locate the strongpoints and follow up with marines to finish them off.

Sai-Lauren
11-04-2005, 10:42
But if the marines are down, all they need is their transport (either dropped rhinos, or t'hawks) and they can go off and attack strategic locations (such as defence installations, airfields, command and control bunkers, fuel and ammo stores and so on) whilst you're reinforcing your beach head - either buying you more time by distracting troops on their way to attack the LZ, or allowing assets to land more easily.

Would probably depend on the theatre commander, the chapter in question and other things besides though ;)

Typheron
11-04-2005, 11:01
in the back of one of the "graphic novels" or comics as they actually are there are details on the landing craft of the IG and i think a bit about how they go about getting stuff down. Although it was specific to the world they were attacking at the time. Look in the back of Ovious Tactics, theres a pile of stuff in there.

They also deployed orbital platforms as staging posts for the ground forces before they launched and as fire platforms for wiping out a whole city in the later stages.

I think its probably highly likely that the fleet simply flattens a small area with its big guns so that the landers have something firm to land on while also being free of anything living.

Morgan Keyes
16-04-2005, 22:25
Agreed, that is what the Stormtrooper Squads that are trained in the thousands. After all lose a regiment of them, several hundred more to call upon before they begin to worry. Lose a Company of Space Marines and you've just lost 100 years of growth, history and abililties.

I picture Drop Troop Regiments mainly to break up a major enemy formation, secure enemy HQ command centres etc, not forming beach heads, they aren't really designed for the holding and fortifying that is necessary to hold a large area of ground without sufficient external support.

I think you may have the two reversed. Stormtroopers would be the ones for Direct Action missions whereas the Drop Troop regiments like the Elysians are used for Forced Entry and when you have a target necessitating large amounts of quick-entry troops, particularly on "Take & Hold Until Relieved". Much the difference between say, 75th Infantry Regiment (Ranger) and the 82nd Airborne Division. Least with what has been shown so far for drop regiments and from my own experiences of 16 years with paratroopers and USASOC.

Stormtroops come with alot of firepower per squad, but lack more at the higher levels then even the lightly equipped drop troops. With those, they can expect "heavier" support from higher levels from drop-equipped Sentinals, specialist squads (mortar, AT, pioneer/combat engineer, etc).

milmot
17-04-2005, 06:18
I think its probably highly likely that the fleet simply flattens a small area with its big guns so that the landers have something firm to land on while also being free of anything living.

I disagree with this. If you orbital bombard a specific area, i would imagine it would be covered in smouldering crators, and therefore impossible for the large bulk transports to land on.

Sai-Lauren
19-04-2005, 09:15
Agree, you might also want what you've just turned into smouldering rubble that's glowing a rather unpleasant and worrying colour.

After all, if you can stamp something flat from orbit, why bother with ground troops?

Drop troops are the 40k version of paratroops/airborne infantry - sent in in large numbers to take objectives, but lacking armour and heavy firepower, so they do need to be reinforced quickly. They'll grab you an LZ, but they may not be able to hold it if you don't get the assault shuttles and air support down from orbit fast enough.

Stormtroopers are more like Royal Marines or commandos, they can go in en masse, deployed from whatever they're shoved into, but they're much better suited to missions on smaller objectives - fuel and ammo dumps, command bunkers and so on.

The special forces - SAS/SBS, Seals, Spetznaz and so on aren't really suited for normal 40k gaming (RT would have been great for them, but 40k's gone more to stand up gunfights than narrative wargaming over 2nd and 3rd editions), but IMO at least, would be the next step up from Stormtroopers.

Marines are a totally different orgranisation before anyone suggests them, and guard need their own SFs ;)