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Tuch
01-05-2007, 02:03
I know that characters must have either the same mark or be marked undivided in order to join a unit, and that heroes with different marks may never join the same unit. Does the latter also extend to Chaos Undivided? As in can I have two Bray-shamans, one Slaanesh and one Undivided, in the same beast herd?

I though I had read that this was acceptable but now can't seem to find where it was stated, only that the hero must be of the same mark, undivided, or joining a unit without a mark at all.

Atrahasis
01-05-2007, 02:18
A character must have the same mark as a marked unit to join it. Undivided is a mark.

Once a character joins a unit he is part of the unit in all respects, so the second character cannot join the unit as it has a mark.

Nightsong
02-05-2007, 00:35
That doesn't make sense. If a unit such as a beast herd (which can not take a mark of chaos) is joined by a hero with a mark, the unit still does not count as having the mark, so why can't the other hero join the unit?

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 01:54
The character is part of the unit, so the unit has a mark, even if the unit does not gain the mark's benefit.

Nightsong
02-05-2007, 06:35
Where do I find this in the book?

MarcoPollo
02-05-2007, 06:47
The character is part of the unit, so the unit has a mark, even if the unit does not gain the mark's benefit.

I'm not so sure about that. That is not how we play it here, and I don't think there is any evidence to support that.

You can have a mixture of characters in unmarked units. No problem. The unit doesn't gain the mark of the character that joined it.

However, it does have to follow the rules for that character with regards to psychology (sort of). If the character is say slaanesh, then the unit cannot flee due to the character not being able to flee (Immune to Psychology).

Also, recently, it was determined that a nurgle character made the unit immune to fear.

But you could have a wargor of Tzeetch and a slaanesh bray shaman in the same beastherd.

Festus
02-05-2007, 09:21
Hi

Atrahasis is right: The character becomes part of the unit in all respects. This entails that the unit has a Mark (even if only one of their number actually carries it). No character with a different Mark may thus join the unit as long as the first character is part of the unit.

Festus

Nightsong
02-05-2007, 16:11
Ok, I have read the Beast of Chaos army book, and I have as of yet been unable to find any rule that states that the above is true. Can we get a page number?

The only thing that I have found states that a unit that has a mark can only be joined by characters with the same mark (i.e. a unit with the mark of Khorne can only be joined by characters with the mark of khorne. There is nothing in the book that provides rules for units without a mark being joined by characters with a mark.

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 16:39
Ok, I have read the Beast of Chaos army book, and I have as of yet been unable to find any rule that states that the above is true. Can we get a page number?

The only thing that I have found states that a unit that has a mark can only be joined by characters with the same mark (i.e. a unit with the mark of Khorne can only be joined by characters with the mark of khorne. There is nothing in the book that provides rules for units without a mark being joined by characters with a mark.

Once the character joins the unit, he is part of the unit. In order to join the unit, the sercond character is also joining the first character (as he is part of the unit). The second character cannot join the first as they have differing marks.

Reinnon
02-05-2007, 16:48
however, the unit doesn't benefit from the mark in question.

Page 46 of the horde of chaos books states:

"The mark effects all models in the unit and only characters with the same mark can join the unit"

thats the rules for marked units, it fairly simply prevents a nurgle character joining a slannesh unit.

this is the same as the rules as per page 60 of the beasts of chaos unit.

WFB rulebook page 73 states the rules for a character joining units as sharing the following:

movement (inc charges)
Spell effects

marks is not mentioned, i can not find a rules quote that states that the characters mark restrictions confers to the unit.

the unit itself is not marked, the character is, for example the beast herd would not suddenly become a lvl 2 wizard if a tzeentch character joins it.

give us a page reference to support your view, for RaW seems to support the idea that you can mix mark characters in a beast herd.

EDIT: ok, a counter argument to my own argument, only characters of the same mark miught refere not only to the unit but to characters in general, so they might be right

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 17:00
A character with a mark cannot join a character with a different mark. In order to join the unit, the second character must also join the first character, as he is part of the unit. This is not permitted.

Reinnon
02-05-2007, 17:06
but the entry doesn't mention characters joining each other, it only referes to joining "units/ride a chariot".

the only counter point is on page 72 of the BRB:

""in effect, characters count as individual units of one model"

so, you can't join 2 characters of two different mark together a single unit, but i really can't find any rules that prohibits a beast herd holding both.

once again, give a page reference please

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 17:13
A character that joins a unit is part of that unit until he leaves it. pp72 BRB

T10
02-05-2007, 17:20
But the character joining the unit does not mean that the unit suddenly has the Mark: you just have a Marked character in an Unmarked unit.

I agree that joining two characters with different Marks into the same unit creates an awkward situation with regards to intent, but I can't find anything RAW to support this.

-T10

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 17:38
The character is part of the unit, in order to join the unit the second character must also be joining the first.

Reinnon
02-05-2007, 17:40
but the unit doesn't have the mark, just 1 model does.

there is nothing suggesting that a unit coutns as having the mark in terms of character placement just because 1 character has it.

your point is void as the quote you said doesn't mention Marks of Chaos and nothing in the chaos book supports your view as far as i'm aware

metro_gnome
02-05-2007, 18:02
um... the unit has:
a) unmarked gors
b) unmarked ungors
c) marked wargor

so therefore the unit has in it:
a) gors
b) ungors
c) a wargor
d) a mark

no character with a different mark may join this unit...

Reinnon
02-05-2007, 18:07
give me a page number that states that.

the rules state "when a unit has a mark"

the beast herd does not have a mark, there is nothing in either book that says when a character joins an unmarked unit the unit counts as having the mark for other characters.

the character already in it does not matter, it is the unit itself that is the important bit.... yes the character is effectivly part of the unit but the unit itself is still unmarked

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 18:09
the rules state "when a unit has a mark"

the beast herd does not have a mark,

The unit the second chracter is joining is not a beast herd. It is a beast herd and a marked character. The unit has a mark, on the wargor.

Reinnon
02-05-2007, 19:01
but where does it say that?

the unit is a beast herd with no mark, the unit doesn't have a mark.... the wargor has the mark.

no where does it state that the characters mark is taken by the unit in terms of character selection, for example a beast herd with a character with a MoN does not gain immunity from items with a reduce effect on nurgle marked troops, nor does khorne make the unit frenzied for the +1 attack.

your sig suggests that your a follower of RaW, but your using rules that don't exist in RaW.

Yes the charatcer is a part of a unit
Yes the character has a Mark

but where does it state the link that a character mark determines the overall mark of the unit in question?

this is not about how characters interact with units, that is pretty clear in the BRB, this is how marks of chaos interact with units, there is nothing as far as i can see in the mark of chaos rules that supports your views

You have yet to give a page reference that says it does.

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 19:16
but where does it say that?Where it says that characters cannot join units with a different mark.


the unit is a beast herd with no mark, the unit doesn't have a mark.... the wargor has the mark.The unit is a wargor and a beast herd. See the rulebook. The wargor is part of the unit until he leaves it.


no where does it state that the characters mark is taken by the unit in terms of character selection, for example a beast herd with a character with a MoN does not gain immunity from items with a reduce effect on nurgle marked troops, nor does khorne make the unit frenzied for the +1 attack.Irrelevant. Whether the unit gains the benefit of the mark has no bearing on whether the wargor is marked (he is) and whether he is part of a unit the second character is joining (he is).


your sig suggests that your a follower of RaW, but your using rules that don't exist in RaW.No I'm not.


Yes the charatcer is a part of a unit
Yes the character has a Mark How can you reconcile these admissions with the rule that a unit cannot be joined by a character with a different mark?


but where does it state the link that a character mark determines the overall mark of the unit in question?The character is part of the unit. You have agreed this. The character has a mark. Does the unit have a mark?


this is not about how characters interact with units, that is pretty clear in the BRB, this is how marks of chaos interact with units, there is nothing as far as i can see in the mark of chaos rules that supports your viewsThis is about both, and how the rules for characters joining units interact with the rules for marks. A unit with a mark cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. The beast herd and wargor as a unit have a mark and so cannot be joined by a character with a different mark.


You have yet to give a page reference that says it does.There is no rule that says "An unmarked unit can/cannot be joined by more than one character of different marks". There are however rules that tell us sthat characters become part of the unit they join and rules to tell us which units marked characters can join. Together they tell us that 2 differently-marked characters cannot join the same unit.

MarcoPollo
02-05-2007, 20:53
The difference with what Athrasis states and Reinnon states is a simple one.

Athrasis states the wargor creates a unit with a mark IN it. While Reinnon states that the wargor is in the unit with a mark, but does not create a unit with a mark ON it.

To have a mark ON it is different than having a mark IN it. The rule only states that the unit has a mark and we are left to decide whether or not this implies ON it or IN it.

I suppose athrasis is correct in the RAW that says the unit has a mark (IN it). However, I do not think this is the intent. It seems like it would mean ON it; although not specifically stated as such. I would not have a problem with someone using two marked characters in a marauder unit or a beastherd. I would have a problem with someone saying no to this.

Again thanks to GW for providing us with ambigious rules!

Reinnon
02-05-2007, 21:09
Ath, i really don't understand what your getting at.

there is nothing in the rules that states that the unit gains the mark for characters, as Marco put it your arguing that the Mark is in and so is therefor on the unit and therefore unit has a mark.

but RaW disagrees with you, for there is nothing even saying that just because 1 model in the unit has a mark the unit suddenly becomes a unit with that mark.

as i said before, give me a page reference that states that just because i have a wargor with a mark of tzeentch in a beast herd i'm banned from putting a model with a mark of slannesh in it.,

The In and Or description, while valid in a sense isn't for the purposes of this argument, as the Chaos Warhammer Book doesn't make such a distinction.

The Book does not prohibit characters of a different mark joining together, there is no "you can only have one mark in a unit", what there is that a character can't join a unit where all members have a different mark from the character in question.

Quote:

"Each of the five marks bestows its benefits on the unit, character or chariot bearing it. The Mark effects all models in the unit and only characters bearing the same mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot"

where in that sentance does it state the all important:

"Characters joining a unit confers the Mark upon the unit"

It doesn't, the unit remains markless, no other specil rule applies to units unless stated.... why suddenly should Marks?

Nightsong
02-05-2007, 22:09
I have to agree with MarcoPollo and Reinnon. I do see your point, I just think that you are wrong.

sulla
02-05-2007, 22:12
This is about both, and how the rules for characters joining units interact with the rules for marks. A unit with a mark cannot be joined by a character with a different mark. The beast herd and wargor as a unit have a mark and so cannot be joined by a character with a different mark.

This sounds more like wishful thinking than RAW.

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 22:53
The second character is not joining a beast herd. He is joining a unit consisting of a beast herd and a wargor. He cannot join a unit that has a mark, and so he cannot join the wargor part of the unit.

Jonke
02-05-2007, 23:11
Atrahasis never said the character confer his mark on the beastherd. When the first character joins the beastherd he is in all respects a part of that unit wich means the unit now has a mark, even though the majority of the models (the beastherd) of the unit does not. And since the unit has a mark a differentley marked character can't join it.

Peace!

T10
02-05-2007, 23:34
The character is part of the unit, in order to join the unit the second character must also be joining the first.

I beg to differ (please, let me differ?): The topic discussed is only relevant to the restriction on a marked unit. Unmarked units have no particular restriction what-so-ever.

(I assume that you would not suggest that a unit of Marauder joined by a Champion of Khorne counts as having the Mark of Khorne...)

-T10

T10
02-05-2007, 23:38
...wich means the unit now has a mark, even though the majority of the models (the beastherd) of the unit does not...

Please reconsider this: the implications are rather unbalancing. An Orc in a Goblin unit should not mean that the unit counts as a unit of Orcs...

-T10

Atrahasis
02-05-2007, 23:41
I beg to differ (please, let me differ?): The topic discussed is only relevant to the restriction on a marked unit. Unmarked units have no particular restriction what-so-ever.

(I assume that you would not suggest that a unit of Marauder joined by a Champion of Khorne counts as having the Mark of Khorne...)

-T10No, but you're still missing my point. The second character is not joining a beast herd, at least not exclusively.

T10
02-05-2007, 23:57
No, but you're still missing my point. The second character is not joining a beast herd, at least not exclusively.

What, are you claiming that if a character joins a unit containing a character he is both a) joining the unit and b) joining the character? One of these are actually illegal, so by that line of thought joining two characters into a single unit is actually not allowed at all.

-T10

Atrahasis
03-05-2007, 00:10
No, I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying that when a character joins a unit he is joining the unit and not just some parts of it.

In other words he is joining a unit consisting of a beast herd and a character. The unit has a mark. The beast herd hasn't but the unit has.

NakedFisherman
03-05-2007, 01:12
There's nothing I can see that supports any of what Atrahasis is saying.

Atrahasis
03-05-2007, 01:29
There's nothing I can see that supports any of what Atrahasis is saying.

You can't see where it says a character that joins a unit is part of the unit until he leaves it?

sds661
03-05-2007, 01:52
I have brown eyes.
I am part of my family.
Therefore my family has brown eyes?

Well, yes, if I mean by that that there exists a member of my family who has brown eyes.

But, no, not if I mean that all members of my family have brown eyes.

So does the unit have a mark or not? You can go either way, but I think the more natural way to read it is no, THEY don't (but ONE of them does). Having said that, I do think that mixing characters of different marks in the same unit is against the intent.

On another tack, I thought the intent of UNDIVIDED was that it was kind of neutral with respect to the chaos gods, and so could be mixed with other marks. It appears that by the letter of the law that this is not the case?

Atrahasis
03-05-2007, 02:05
I have brown eyes.
I am part of my family.
Therefore my family has brown eyes?

Well, yes, if I mean by that that there exists a member of my family who has brown eyes.

But, no, not if I mean that all members of my family have brown eyes.If there was a special offer that was only available to families (units) that do not have any brown eyes (marks) then you wouldn't be able to collect.


So does the unit have a mark or not? You can go either way, but I think the more natural way to read it is no, THEY don't (but ONE of them does). Having said that, I do think that mixing characters of different marks in the same unit is against the intent.The rule doesn't ask whether every model in a unit has a mark, but whether the unit has a mark. The unit (and by that I don't mean the beast herd) clearly has.


On another tack, I thought the intent of UNDIVIDED was that it was kind of neutral with respect to the chaos gods, and so could be mixed with other marks. It appears that by the letter of the law that this is not the case?Undivided is a mark in and of itself, different from teh other 4, and has the same consequences as far as characters joining units are concerned. It does allow more flexibility if the general is Undivided. So you're right in one context but not another :)

MarcoPollo
03-05-2007, 04:27
Again it comes down to In vs On. So what about a second unit of bestigors. The first is allowed to have a mark. The second unit cannot have a mark. If I put a character in the 2nd unit then my army will have 2 marked bestigor units which I cannot have.

So what you are saying then, Athrasis, is that by your conjecture (about the beastherd), the second bestigor unit cannot contain any characters!?!

This rule will not just affect beastherds, but marauders, marauder horsemen, and unmarked units of bestigors.

Again, mixing characters in unmarked units is fine as long as the psychology of the unit reflects the specific restrictions/bonus (fear) that the character has (but not the entire mark).

MarcoPollo
03-05-2007, 04:54
Also, does this mean that a unit of bretonian men at arms can only have one type VOW. I mean by your reasoning, you could not have a men at arms unit with a grail vow knight and a Questing Vow knight.

The men at arms unit would HAVE the questing vow, and the grail Vow all rolled up into one unit. And, IIRC, a unit with one vow, will not allow characters with a lesser vow to join them.

I don't see how you can place all these restrictions on the game by the supposition that a unit with a mark IN it has the same effect as a unit with a mark ON it.



... Sorry for the double post. They came at different times with different trains of thought.

Atrahasis
03-05-2007, 06:52
Again it comes down to In vs On. So what about a second unit of bestigors. The first is allowed to have a mark. The second unit cannot have a mark. If I put a character in the 2nd unit then my army will have 2 marked bestigor units which I cannot have.No you won't. You aren't comprehending what I am saying to you. You will not have two marked Bestigor units. You will have a marked bestigor unit and a unit consisting of unmarked bestigor and a character with a mark.


Also, does this mean that a unit of bretonian men at arms can only have one type VOW. I mean by your reasoning, you could not have a men at arms unit with a grail vow knight and a Questing Vow knight.

The men at arms unit would HAVE the questing vow, and the grail Vow all rolled up into one unit. And, IIRC, a unit with one vow, will not allow characters with a lesser vow to join them.

I don't see how you can place all these restrictions on the game by the supposition that a unit with a mark IN it has the same effect as a unit with a mark ON it.IN vs ON is a red herring. A character joining a unit must be joining all parts of the unit and not just those you want it to. A marked character (or one with a vow) is part of any unit he joins until he leaves. Any subsequent characters must join the unit and not just the rank and file which make up most of the unit.

T10
03-05-2007, 08:44
In other words he is joining a unit consisting of a beast herd and a character. The unit has a mark. The beast herd hasn't but the unit has.

That the unit contains a model with a Mark does not mean that the unit is Marked. It remains an Unmarked unit as long as there are any rank-and-file models left.

The restriction on joining units is with regards to Marked units, not units "that contain one or more Marked models".

Does a unit of Marauders containing a Champion of Khorne have the Mark of Khorne?

-T10

Atrahasis
03-05-2007, 08:47
Does a unit of Marauders containing a Champion of Khorne have the Mark of Khorne?The unit has, the Marauders have not.

WLBjork
03-05-2007, 09:36
metro_gnome has the right of it in post 17.

TheDarkDaff
03-05-2007, 10:09
Just to add a little bit of confusion to the debate GW uses the term unit to mean basically any form of entity that operates on it's own(be it a character, a regiment a monster or a character in a regiment). What it boils down to can be expressed with the simple chart below

Marked Character = a "Unit" with a mark

Unmarked Regiment = a "Unit" without a mark

Marked Character + Unmarked Regiment = a "Unit" with a mark(even if only a single part has a mark)

To put it another way you have a regiment with no armour that is joined by a character wearing armour to form a unit. Does this unit have armour. The answer is yes but it doesn't all have armour. So the same logic applies to the "unit" with a mark.

T10
03-05-2007, 10:36
The unit has, the Marauders have not.

So the unit has the Mark of Khorne even if the rank-and-file models do not. Interesting, since with regiments the Mark provides benefits to the unit and not the individual models. Lets play around a bit with the various marks here.

Mark of Chaos Undivided: The unit gets to re-roll failed psychology tests. Great! I always wondered how MCU worked in unmarked units. Now I know!

Mark of Khorne: The unit is frenzied and generates an additional Dispel die. The frenzy part is interesting. The unit has to charge enemy the enemy: it is not sufficient to "release" the frenzied character: the whole unit has to charge if possible. Also the unit becomes immune to psychology since its frenzied. Most units are unaffected when an ItP character joins their ranks, but I guess those Marks are pretty special, huh?

Mark of Slaanesh: Again with the ItP.

Mark of Tzeentch: The unit generate an additional Power die.

Mark of Nurgle: The unit causes Fear. Normally a Fear-causing model in a non-Fear-causing unit only triggers Fear tests if the Fear-causing model will become engaged in close combat. However, since this is a Fear-causing unit (admittedly consisting of largely non-Fear-causing models) it triggers the Fear tests in the same way as a unit of Skeletons or Ogres. The individual models don't all cause fear, just the character, so it doesn't have all that much "Fear Unit Strength" to kick around with.

This is all ridiculous. You don't get a Marked unit just by dumping a character into it. I ask again:

Does a unit of Marauders containing a Champion of Khorne have the Mark of Khorne?

If it does not then the restriction on characters joining it does not apply.

-T10

Reinnon
03-05-2007, 11:05
Precisely my point T10.

once again ath, give us a page reference that states that Marks work in this way.

We all know how characters become parts of units, but its not how Marks work.

i'm willing to admit i'm wrong, but i really can't find any reference in the rules that supports your view, except for your "the character is a part of the unit" that you keep repeating.

this may be the case (it is the case), but the unit is still unmarked as the base unit is unmarked.

Atrahasis
03-05-2007, 11:17
So the unit has the Mark of Khorne even if the rank-and-file models do not. Interesting, since with regiments the Mark provides benefits to the unit and not the individual models.Only where the regiment bears the mark.


Does a unit of Marauders containing a Champion of Khorne have the Mark of Khorne?It is not a unit of Marauders. It is a unit consisting of marauders and a Champion of Khorne.

T10
03-05-2007, 12:11
Only where the regiment bears the mark.



And only where the regiment bears the mark does the restriction apply.

-T10

Atrahasis
03-05-2007, 12:47
And only where the regiment bears the mark does the restriction apply.I don't see how you can argue that a character somehow ceases to exist when it joins a unit.

when the second character joins the unit, he is joining a unit that has a mark different from his own, which is against the rules for marks.

Aelyn
03-05-2007, 13:11
So the unit has the Mark of Khorne even if the rank-and-file models do not. Interesting, since with regiments the Mark provides benefits to the unit and not the individual models. Lets play around a bit with the various marks here.

Mark of Chaos Undivided: The unit gets to re-roll failed psychology tests. Great! I always wondered how MCU worked in unmarked units. Now I know!

Mark of Khorne: The unit is frenzied and generates an additional Dispel die. The frenzy part is interesting. The unit has to charge enemy the enemy: it is not sufficient to "release" the frenzied character: the whole unit has to charge if possible. Also the unit becomes immune to psychology since its frenzied. Most units are unaffected when an ItP character joins their ranks, but I guess those Marks are pretty special, huh?

Mark of Slaanesh: Again with the ItP.

Mark of Tzeentch: The unit generate an additional Power die.

Mark of Nurgle: The unit causes Fear. Normally a Fear-causing model in a non-Fear-causing unit only triggers Fear tests if the Fear-causing model will become engaged in close combat. However, since this is a Fear-causing unit (admittedly consisting of largely non-Fear-causing models) it triggers the Fear tests in the same way as a unit of Skeletons or Ogres. The individual models don't all cause fear, just the character, so it doesn't have all that much "Fear Unit Strength" to kick around with.

This is all ridiculous. You don't get a Marked unit just by dumping a character into it. I ask again:

Does a unit of Marauders containing a Champion of Khorne have the Mark of Khorne?

If it does not then the restriction on characters joining it does not apply.

-T10Uh, T10, most of the rules you quoted there were the rules for a Mark given to a unit. That is, if you buy a regiment and give it the mark of Khorne, it generates +1 Dispel dice and has Frenzy.

The Mark of Khorne on a Khorne Champion gives the character Frenzy and generates an additional dispel dice. What you have is a unit of unfrenzied marauders without a mark and a frenzied Lord inside the unit, which is easily understood in the rules.

You don't get a marked regiment by putting a character with a mark in it. You do get a unit which has a Mark, though.

T10
03-05-2007, 13:44
I don't see how you can argue that a character somehow ceases to exist when it joins a unit.


The character's presence is irrelevant unless his presence bestowes the Mark upon the unit: The restriction only applies to Marked units.

-T10

T10
03-05-2007, 13:46
Uh, T10, most of the rules you quoted there were the rules for a Mark given to a unit. That is, if you buy a regiment and give it the mark of Khorne, it generates +1 Dispel dice and has Frenzy.


Duh, Aelyn:



This is all ridiculous. You don't get a Marked unit just by dumping a character into it. I ask again:

Does a unit of Marauders containing a Champion of Khorne have the Mark of Khorne?

If it does not then the restriction on characters joining it does not apply.


-T10

enyoss
03-05-2007, 13:57
I'm with Atrahasis here. For a marked character to join the unit, the said character must de facto join any other marked characters accompanying the unit, which is forbidden in the rules.

Furthermore, I think the intent of the rule is quite clear; that models with differing marks should never be able to join together to form units.

Cheers,

enyoss

EDIT: Sorry to to Atrahasis for sullying the logical rules solution with a 'common sense' rider ;).

sds661
03-05-2007, 14:01
p46, Hordes of Chaos, "The Mark affects all models in the unit and only characters bearing the same Mark can join the unit..."

Surely this makes it clear that the Mark being referred to in the first instance is the Mark ON the unit (since it affects all models) and not the Mark IN the unit.

WLBjork
03-05-2007, 14:19
However, the rulebook states that
In this case, he becomes part of that unit until he decides to leave it.

In other words, the Unit has the Mark.

It's not the Regiment that has the Mark, but the Unit as a whole has the Mark, which therefore prevents a Character with any other Mark from joining the Unit.

T10
03-05-2007, 14:23
"The Mark affects all models in the unit and only characters bearing the same Mark can join the unit..."

The operative term is unit and not regiment. Regiments, chariots and monsters are all units.

-T10

Pqxy
03-05-2007, 15:48
Page 46.

"The mark affects all modles in the unit and only characters bearing the same mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot"

So the answer to your question is no.

If your unit has no mark then none of your characters with a mark may join.

If your unit has a mark then only a character with the same mark may join.

As far as i can see all chaos lord/heros come with the mark of chaos undivided, so if your unit cant have a mark, like marauders for example then you can never join that unit with a chaos hero ever.

MarcoPollo
03-05-2007, 16:01
IN vs ON is a red herring.

Calling this a red herring is a red herring.

It is precisely the core of the issue. GW does not make this clear, and so we are having this debate.

Of course the unit HAS a mark (IN it) if a wargor is in it. But, in this case, the unit does not have a mark ON it to prevent the unit from holding another wargor of a different mark.

NakedFisherman
04-05-2007, 00:19
You can't see where it says a character that joins a unit is part of the unit until he leaves it?

What does that have to do with Marks of Chaos?

The character is part of the unit...the unit doesn't get some of the character's special rules.

Tuch
04-05-2007, 00:35
Pqxy,

What you are saying is incorrect. Units that have no mark such as Marauders and Beatherds can be joined by a character regardless of their mark. This was a big debate within the Chaos Tactics threaded and was resolved through one of the posters presenting official errata on the topic.

I though this topic would be cut and dry and am surprised that there or so many with opposing views. For now I have stopped running the mix of Slaanesh and Undivided shamans and opted for them both to be Slaanesh, as I have no question as to it's rule legality.

Tuch

lparigi34
04-05-2007, 00:40
Again, actually, the unit is just in the middle and it is almost irrelevant to the issue.

Two characters, being each a unit per se, with different marks cannot go together. Never ever. Period.

The fact is that you are trying to use an unmarked unit that can allow a marked character to join it as a "blending medium" to violate the rule above. Nothing in the rules seems to indicate you can do that.

Pqxy
04-05-2007, 03:24
Pqxy,

What you are saying is incorrect. Units that have no mark such as Marauders and Beatherds can be joined by a character regardless of their mark. This was a big debate within the Chaos Tactics threaded and was resolved through one of the posters presenting official errata on the topic.

I though this topic would be cut and dry and am surprised that there or so many with opposing views. For now I have stopped running the mix of Slaanesh and Undivided shamans and opted for them both to be Slaanesh, as I have no question as to it's rule legality.

Tuch

Any chance of a link to this thred mate?
I will go and have a look around, looked on the GW website and there is nothing in the errata there.

Tuch
04-05-2007, 05:06
Here ya go

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=934&page=7

It's near the bottom though the entire debate covers a few previous pages as well.

Tuch

NakedFisherman
04-05-2007, 05:51
Again, actually, the unit is just in the middle and it is almost irrelevant to the issue.

Two characters, being each a unit per se, with different marks cannot go together. Never ever. Period.

The fact is that you are trying to use an unmarked unit that can allow a marked character to join it as a "blending medium" to violate the rule above. Nothing in the rules seems to indicate you can do that.

Two characters can't form a unit anyway.

There's nothing in the rules that prevents two differently-marked characters from joining an unmarked unit.

intellectawe
04-05-2007, 07:33
OMG...

I can't believe people still quote that garbage Direwolf faq like its cannon. You should print out the faq, then burn it.

From what I see in this thread, there is nothing forbidding two characters with different marks joining a unit. I haven't seen a page number given stating that you cannot do this. Just wishful thinking. But I am always of an open mind!

I don't see how a unit that is joined by a character with the mark of khorne, all of a sudden gains the mark. Does that mean the unit now provides its own +1 dispel dice? Of course not. So the unit doesn't have the mark, the character does, otherwise, you could join characters to units to gain extra dispel dice with the mark of khorne.

And since it doesn't work this way, then unit doesn't gain the mark, hence, it is still markless per se. So what is stopping me from joining a second character to the still markless unit?

Pqxy
04-05-2007, 08:20
Here ya go

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=934&page=7

It's near the bottom though the entire debate covers a few previous pages as well.

Tuch

Ok I dont see any errata links there.

I dont know about what they are saying it all goes agains what the book says.

Only characters, wariors, knights and chariots have the mark of chaos undivided and only those units may ever(beasts might be different) have a different mark.
You must have the smae mark to join.
I dont see the prob.
Please someone send a link to offical errata if there is any

TheDarkDaff
04-05-2007, 09:56
OMG...

I can't believe people still quote that garbage Direwolf faq like its cannon. You should print out the faq, then burn it.

From what I see in this thread, there is nothing forbidding two characters with different marks joining a unit. I haven't seen a page number given stating that you cannot do this. Just wishful thinking. But I am always of an open mind!

I don't see how a unit that is joined by a character with the mark of khorne, all of a sudden gains the mark. Does that mean the unit now provides its own +1 dispel dice? Of course not. So the unit doesn't have the mark, the character does, otherwise, you could join characters to units to gain extra dispel dice with the mark of khorne.

The problem you are having is that you are assuming "unit" and "regiment" are the same thing and they aren't. A unit is just a single entity on the board some examples of units are:

a) a regiment of Marauders
b) an Exalted Champion
c) a regiment of Marauders with an Exalted Champion
d) a Chaos Spawn

All the above are single units. 2 of the above units(not regiments) have a mark



And since it doesn't work this way, then unit doesn't gain the mark, hence, it is still markless per se. So what is stopping me from joining a second character to the still markless unit?


Read what we are saying. The "unit"(Marauders+Charater) have a mark because of the character, and while the unit has a mark the Regiment(the marauders) ,that are only part of the unit and not the unit itself, do not.

T10
04-05-2007, 10:17
You can't accept one without the other: If the unit has the Mark then the restriction applies, but then the nonsensical benefits that come with having a unit with a Mark will also apply:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1523575&postcount=44

-T10

Festus
04-05-2007, 10:33
Hi

You still don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between a Marked unit and a unit which has a Mark. A unit may have a Mark and still not gain any of the associated benefits. Heck, Daemonic Units have a Mark without any benefits whatsoever...

BTW: Atrahasis is still right: A soon as a Marked Character joins any unit, this unit has a Mark. It may not benefit from it (although in some cases it does - MoNurgle as an example), but it has a Makr regardless.

Festus

T10
04-05-2007, 10:56
You still don't seem to be able to grasp the difference between a Marked unit and a unit which has a Mark.


Oh, but I do.

It is entirely acceptable that a unit that contains a Mark is not considered to be Marked. Such a unit does not benefit from the Mark it contains as the Mark only applies to the character.

But. The. Restriction. On. Marked. Characters. Joining. The. Unit. Only. Applies. If. The. Unit. Is. Marked.

Read the relevant section in either Chaos army list and prove me right.

-T10

Festus
04-05-2007, 11:13
Hi

Read the relevant section in either Chaos army list and prove me right.Then I will have to rely on you to quote the relevant passage, as I only have the German HoC book, and you will not accept this as proof, I daresay...

Festus

sds661
04-05-2007, 11:20
Thread 53 is the quote you need. Nobody on the other side of the debate seems to be quoting much from the rules which is as relevant.

It is clear the Mark refered to is the mark ON the unit. Not withstanding this, I believe mixing marks is against the INTENT of the rule, but the actual wording indicates we are comparing the marks ON the characters to the mark ON the unit, and we are not comparing the marks on two different characters.

Sanjuro
04-05-2007, 11:37
Characters, units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights, and Chaos Chariots are assumed to have the Mark of Chaos Undivided (see opposite page). They can replace the Mark of CHaos Undivided with the Mark of a specific Chaos God at the additional cost shown opposite. Each of the five Marks bestows its benefits on the character, unit or chariot bearing it. The Mark affects all models in the unit and only characters bearing the same Mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot.

Make of that what you will, that is the wording of the rules. They are the same in the BoC book as well, but refer to the marked units in that particular army list instead. This particular rules discussion seems a bit too much hinged on semantics to be a 100% kosher, I think.

T10
04-05-2007, 12:47
What rules-discussion that does not study the meaning (i.e. semantics) of the rules is worth having? :)

In this case the question asked is simple: "Can I put two characters with different Marks into the same Unmarked unit?"

Correct answer: "According to the rules, yes. But you really shouldn't because it doesn't fit the background very well."

Wrong answer: "No, and here are some rules that say you can't. They don't actually apply, so don't look too closely at them."

-T10

DeathlessDraich
04-05-2007, 12:50
Back on form T10.:D
I heartily agree.

TheDarkDaff
04-05-2007, 14:57
Lets throw in another curve ball. A charater is a unit by itself. If it has joined with an unmarked unit and a second character wishs to join this unit he is not only joining the Unmarked Regiment Unit but also the Marked charater unit at the same time.

Anyway now i reread the rules it seem that this is a GW stuff up. They use the genral term "unit" when they are refering specifically to a "regiment"(in the last sentance of the rule).

lparigi34
04-05-2007, 15:10
The solution is that you can put both characters with different marks within the same regiment, just make sure they are in opposite corners!!!:p

T10
04-05-2007, 15:55
Lets throw in another curve ball. A charater is a unit by itself. If it has joined with an unmarked unit and a second character wishs to join this unit he is not only joining the Unmarked Regiment Unit but also the Marked charater unit at the same time.


Looks like the same curve-ball that has been missing the mark these last pages. The rules actually disallow joining two characters to form a unit so you need "filler" of another unit (e.g. a bunch of marauders) to have the two characters work together at all.

As for the term "regiment" being used in the rules, it actually shows that the designers were aware of the fact that of the units that can receive a Mark, characters can only join regiments and chariots. And chariots can only be "joined" by a single character.

-T10

Festus
04-05-2007, 16:00
Thread 53 is the quote you need.
Unfortunately, it is not.

To be precise, I am looking for the exact wording of the first paragraph of p.46, and all other relevant quotes, concerning Marks and characters joining units - including Daemonic units and models...

...this would be very helpful indeed.

Festus

intellectawe
04-05-2007, 16:05
The problem you are having is that you are assuming "unit" and "regiment" are the same thing and they aren't. A unit is just a single entity on the board some examples of units are:

a) a regiment of Marauders
b) an Exalted Champion
c) a regiment of Marauders with an Exalted Champion
d) a Chaos Spawn

All the above are single units. 2 of the above units(not regiments) have a mark




Read what we are saying. The "unit"(Marauders+Charater) have a mark because of the character, and while the unit has a mark the Regiment(the marauders) ,that are only part of the unit and not the unit itself, do not.

It is you who aren't reading what I am saying, or maybe you don't understand. A unit joined by a character does not in any way PASS the mark of the character onto the unit. The second character is joining the REGIMENT unit, not the character unit, and so forth, the second character is not breaking any rules associated with marks.

Everyone keeps saying "the character passes its mark onto the parent unit" in some form or another, but after how many pages of this discussion, not one person has given a page number and/or rule which states this. No one.

Festus
04-05-2007, 16:16
Hi

Nobody says something about passing on the Mark to the unit - at least noone worth his salt...

...what a few of us say is, that the unit - with the character having joined - bears a Mark, albeit only one one Member, but there is a Mark within the unit nonetheless.

The joined character is part of the unit in all respects, (p. 72 BRB if you are still looking for a rules quote), so the unit has at least one member bearing a Mark, and is thus not eligible to let a character with a different mark join it, as this would mix two Marks within one unit.

Festus

Reinnon
04-05-2007, 16:58
but page 46 of the chaos book doesn't say you can only have one mark in a unit.

it states that if the whole unit has the mark then characters with a different mark can not join it.

it doesn't say "if a unit has a mark", it states that if the mark effects all the models in the unit then a character with a different mark can't join.

a beast herd does not have a mark, therefore the unit can not all be affected by the mark, therefore the restriction doesn't apply.

T10
04-05-2007, 17:26
I dare quote the relevant passage from the Hordes of Chaos book.


Each of the five Marks bestows its benefits on the character, unit or chariot bearing it. The Mark affects all models in the [Marked] unit and only characters bearing the same Mark can join the [Marked]" unit/ride the [Marked] chariot.

Notice how I put [Marked] there to emphasise the point that when a unit or chariot is mentioned, it is still within the context of Marked units/chariots.

Notice how the rules also tell us that the Mark affects all models in the unit, but that this is still in the context of a Marked unit.


Are we agreed that Unmarked units (by virtue of omission) do not factor into this?

Are we agreed that only Marked units carry the restriction?

Are we agreed that for a normall unit to count as having a Mark it must have been assigned one at the unit level? i.e. the only way for a Chariot to gain the Mark of Slaanesh is if you pay the points for it.



The joined character is part of the unit in all respects, (p. 72 BRB if you are still looking for a rules quote), so the unit has at least one member bearing a Mark, and is thus not eligible to let a character with a different mark join it, as this would mix two Marks within one unit.

"The joined character becomes a part of the unit in all respects."

Why do you assume this means the character conveys his special rules upon the unit and not the other way around? If anything, a Champion of Khorne should discount his Mark since he is a part of a unit of Marauders "in all respects"...

"... thus not eligible..."

You are falsely assuming that a single individual model added to the unit can change its (the unit's) nature.

-T10

Asrai Wraith
04-05-2007, 17:39
Can I add to the above:
"is part of the unit in all respects" does not mean "is identical to the unit it joins in all respects".

The statement simply states the character is "part of the unit".
To intepret this as 'passing on its Mark' , which is not explicitly stated in the rules in the first place, would also cause a character with a particular psychology to pass on that psychology to the unit - Not true for some psychology [possibly all but that doesn't alter the main point].

Atrahasis
04-05-2007, 18:25
The second character is joining the unit and not just the beast herd/marauders.

T10
04-05-2007, 18:28
But the unit still is not Marked and neither gains the benefits of such nor restricts other Marked characters from joining.

-T10

lparigi34
04-05-2007, 20:01
But the unit still is not Marked and neither gains the benefits of such nor restricts other Marked characters from joining.

-T10

Partially true.

Units charging an unmarked unit with a Nurgle marked hero in it will have to test fear is some of the cases.

An unmarked unit with a Slaanesh marked hero will make the hero to loose it inmune to psicology status

Unmarked units with a Khorne marked hero in it will always hav to pursue the enemy.

Unmarked units with a Tzeentch marked hero in it will make no difference at all for the hero or the unit.

So, one combination is possitve, one is negative for the unit, other is negative for the character and one is neutral.

Now I see no point into not letting two marked characters join the same unit, except for the Nurgle case, the point is moot.

Sanjuro
04-05-2007, 22:16
What rules-discussion that does not study the meaning (i.e. semantics) of the rules is worth having? :)

-T10

Well, I'll give you that, but this discussion is a bit too much on the philosophical side, even more than is usual over here on the Rules Forum.

Oh, and Festus: regarding your request, I quoted the relevant section in a post on the last page.

Festus
04-05-2007, 22:20
Hi

"The joined character becomes a part of the unit in all respects."

Why do you assume this means the character conveys his special rules upon the unit and not the other way around? If anything, a Champion of Khorne should discount his Mark since he is a part of a unit of Marauders "in all respects"...

You should know me better - and I am slightly disappointed: I do not assume anything...

I never ever talked about any special rules connected with the Mark. I talk about the simple fact of having the Mark. Nothing more, nothing less.



"... thus not eligible..."

You are falsely assuming that a single individual model added to the unit can change its (the unit's) nature.
I still will not assume anything, not even falsely. But you state falsely that a single model added to a unit may not change its nature - ie. its rules. Note how a Character with the MoNurgle for example does just that...

Festus

Festus
04-05-2007, 22:26
Make of that what you will, that is the wording of the rules. They are the same in the BoC book as well, but refer to the marked units in that particular army list instead. This particular rules discussion seems a bit too much hinged on semantics to be a 100% kosher, I think.
Thank you for the quote. The point I am trying to make is:


Characters, units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights, and Chaos Chariots are assumed to have the Mark of Chaos Undivided (see opposite page). ... Each of the five Marks bestows its benefits on the character, unit or chariot bearing it.
The Problem is not here, it is in the following sentence:


The Mark affects all models in the unit and only characters bearing the same Mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot.

The Mark affects all models in the unit - it does not necessarily bestow its benefits to all members of the unit (as in the case of Daemons for example). One model in the unit has a Mark, all models in the unit are affected by it. This does not mean that they all gain the benefit (but they may - even if only partially with the MoNurgle), but that there are effects of the Mark affecting all of the unit. The ability to be joined is one of those effects IMNSHO.

Festus

xmbk
04-05-2007, 22:53
T10's post #82 is spot on. Even a character with the MoN does not change the fact that he is in an unmarked unit. A unit must be either Marked or Unmarked. The characters that have joined it do not change that simple fact.

Vishok
04-05-2007, 22:54
We're talking about a hero character? He isn't bought at army selection right? So you're saying that if any hero with the mark of say, Nurgle, joins a unit with no mark, the unit then effectively gains the mark?

But can't this really only happen at the earliest during deployment? I'm not sure I understand.

If the unit itself is not marked, couldn't you join a character with the mark of Nurgle, one with the Mark of Slaanesh, and one with the Mark of Chaos Undivided during the game?

Or are you saying that since one of these marks joins the unmarked unit, no other marked character can join the unit?

WLBjork
05-05-2007, 09:47
um... the unit has:
a) unmarked gors
b) unmarked ungors
c) marked wargor

so therefore the unit has in it:
a) gors
b) ungors
c) a wargor
d) a mark

no character with a different mark may join this unit...

I've quoted this because this is what the rules say happens.

T10 (et. al.), you are completely ignoring this rule
In this case, he becomes a part of that unit until he decides to leave it.

Festus
05-05-2007, 10:40
Hi

T10's post #82 is spot on. Even a character with the MoN does not change the fact that he is in an unmarked unit. A unit must be either Marked or Unmarked. The characters that have joined it do not change that simple fact.
And this is based on what exactly? - apart from your humble and unfounded opinion - :rolleyes:

Festus

T10
05-05-2007, 10:53
The Problem is not here, it is in the following sentence:


The last sentence still deals with "units" in the context of Marked units, not units in general. A Mark is something the unit starts out with, not something it can achieve during th ecourse of the game by dumping a character into it.

-T10

Festus
05-05-2007, 11:02
A Mark is something the unit starts out with, not something it can achieve during th ecourse of the game by dumping a character into it.
This is written without any proof at all. You think so, but I think that you think wrongly.

A Mark is something, a unit (this meaning chariots/characters/regiments) has. True.

But certain units can be joined during the course of the game to form larger units - this unit (game term for character AND regiment in our case) certainly has a Mark in its midst, doesn't it?

Festus

T10
05-05-2007, 11:24
This is written without any proof at all. You think so, but I think that you think wrongly.


Here:

"Character, units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights, and Chaos Chariots are assumed to have the Mark of Chaos Undivided (se opposite page [this lists the effects of the Mark on said units]). They can replace the Mark of Chaos Undivided with the Mark of a specific Chaos God at the additional cost shown opposite. (...)"

There is also a section on the Marks of Daemons and Spawn under "The Chaos General" heading on p.55, but that also just says they start with the Mark.

I've not found any rules on how Unmarked units become Marked when a Marked charater joins them (reason: there aren't any). That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

-T10

Reinnon
05-05-2007, 11:28
T10 (et. al.), you are completely ignoring this rule

but your ignoring the hordes of chaos book, which doesn' say that a character transfers his mark, it deals with single mark units where you have bought the mark for it from the army list.

please, ath has been quoting that rule since page 1, heck even i quoted it

DeathlessDraich
05-05-2007, 13:47
I'm quite certain of the correct interpretation but I'll join in the discussion in case I'm proven to be wrong.


I've quoted this because this is what the rules say happens.
Originally Posted by BRB page 72
In this case, he becomes a part of that unit until he decides to leave it.
T10 (et. al.), you are completely ignoring this rule

"part of the unit" = a model in the unit
"Part of the unit in all respects" does not mean shares all characteristics with the unit - I'm sure everyone will agree with that
"Part of the unit in all respects" does not mean shares some of his characteristics with the unit

If the Mark is passed on why shouldn't any other special ability, psychology or characteristic not be passed on?

A rule must be applied consistently. See below**


The last sentence still deals with "units" in the context of Marked units, not units in general. A Mark is something the unit starts out with, not something it can achieve during th ecourse of the game by dumping a character into it.

-T10

Just playing devil's advocate here. The Chaos Marks rules do not mention passing on abilities or Marks. The others are referring to other rules which might enable something to be passed on from character to unit he joins, because of the phrase "in all respects". Taken in context That rule relates only to being "part of the unit".



But certain units can be joined during the course of the game to form larger units - this unit (game term for character AND regiment in our case) certainly has a Mark in its midst, doesn't it?

Festus

Yes, the unit has a Mark in its midst. See below**



There is also a section on the Marks of Daemons and Spawn under "The Chaos General" heading on p.55, but that also just says they start with the Mark.

I've not found any rules on how Unmarked units become Marked when a Marked charater joins them (reason: there aren't any). That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
-T10

I wonder how many times you will be repeating this.

One last important comment:

**The rule which the dissenters have used:

"While a character is with a unit of troops he is considered to be part of that unit in all respects"

This is followed by an important statement:

"This means that if a unit flees, he must flee along at the same speed, if the unit pursues ...etc"

Apologies for underlining but that statement qualifies exactly how that rule should and must be used - only in the circumstances mentioned and not in relation to Marks of Chaos.

WLBjork
05-05-2007, 15:28
The HoC book is perfectly clear:
The Mark affects all models in the unit and only characters bearing the same Mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot.

So is the rule book:
In this case, he becomes a part of that unit until he decides to leave it.

But people are not combining the rules correctly and I cannot understand why.

Let's take an unmarked beastherd as an example (like metro_gnome did).

Unit contains:
1 Regiment of Unmarked Gors and Ungors.

There is no problem at this point with any character joining the unit (depending of course, on the interpretation of the HoC rule quoted ;))

Now let's add a Wargor with a Mark (it makes no difference which one, the principle is the same):

Unit contains:
1 Regiment of Gors and Ungors
1 Wargor with Mark.

Now the Unit has a Mark. Now only a character with the same Mark can join the Unit. Why?

Because the Character is a part of the Unit. They are not two seperate entities, they are one entity - the Unit.

@DD: I'm not using that rule (because I can't find it at the moment, and I'm about to go to work :p)

Reinnon
05-05-2007, 15:44
it seems we are reading the HoC differently.

1) i read it that if the Mark affects everyone in the unit (i.e. the unit has been bought a mark) then the restriction applies.

2) while your reading it that as soon as a mark is in the unit then the mark affects all the member of the unit in as far as the restrictions.

i'm sorry, but i still have to disagree, when i read it i see it as option 1) as by the 2) you could argue that the unit gains the whole benefit of the mark if a character joins it.

As i've said before, this is not a discussion on how characters influence units, its a discussion on how Marks influence units, the character section of the BRB doesn't really apply.

PS: the character is not the same as the unit he joins, i.e you can still target him seperatly in close combat and spells like Green Fire does not effect him.

theunwantedbeing
05-05-2007, 17:44
Page 72 of the big rulebook.
The character becomes part of the unit when he joins it.

Page 46 hoardes of chaos book
Page 60 beasts of chaos book
Only character's with the same mark can join the unit

Once a marked character is in an unmarked unit the unit is considered to be marked,even though all the members of the unit dont follow the specific rules for being marked.

So a tzeentch cahracter joining a unit of marauders makes the marauders tzeentch marauders.So no other character than tzentch character's can join the unit.

But the unit doesnt generate dice or become a wizard due to the tzeentch champion joining it.

The same goes for any other marked character joining an unmarked unit.

Reinnon
05-05-2007, 18:27
thank you for that, most helpful to be reminded of the rules.

again, re read the HoC book, it states that only when the mark affects all models in the unit does the restriction apply, it does not say that you can only have 1 mark in a unit, it merely prohibits a nurgle character from joining a unit of tzeentch warriors

"A character or unit may only be given a single mark" is the precise wording of the rules.

once again.... can someone please give a definate passage thats states that Marks of chaos work like this?

theunwantedbeing
05-05-2007, 18:37
Seems your missing the point a bit.
A character joining the unit becomes part of that unit.
And if the character has a mark(which he will) then that unit is considered to have the mark as well.
Although the unit doesnt benefit from any of the rules associated with it.
ie. it doesnt cause fear if joined by a nurgle character.

However,going back to page 46,only character's with the same mark as a unit can join that unit.

As soon as a marked character joins a unit that unit is considered to have that mark,so cannot be joined by a character with a different mark.

Reinnon
05-05-2007, 20:21
your missing my point, in that marks do not work like that.

bah, seems like this argument is forever going around in a circle

theunwantedbeing
05-05-2007, 20:58
Why dont they work like that though?
Beacause thats what the wording indicates in the book.

Unless you can find somewhere that says a character joining a unit loses his mark then you cant have 2 characters of different marks in the same unit.

sulla
05-05-2007, 21:57
As soon as a marked character joins a unit that unit is considered to have that mark,so cannot be joined by a character with a different mark.

Most likely if that was actually a rule you would convince us of your opinion much more easily.

Reinnon
05-05-2007, 22:03
its not about if a character loses his mark, no one is arguing that.

we're arguing that the character mark does not mean that the unit is marked, as the restriction only applies if the whole unit has the mark.

as sulla put it, no where states that what your saying is actually a rule, as nothing else is effected by it

theunwantedbeing
05-05-2007, 22:10
The mark restriction doesnt say antyhing about a unit needing a whole mark though......

A character joining a unit becomes part of that unit.
Which includes his mark,so the unit is considered to have that mark.

Which prevents other marks from being part of that unit.

Krankenstein
05-05-2007, 22:52
Here is a related issue that might shed some confusion on the whole mark thing:

Bretonnian Vows are like marks in that both units and characters can have them. Unlike marks, Vows have a hierarchy where the higher Vows reject lower Vows, but lower Vows welcome higher Vows.

Bretonnia book p.43 “Knights with the Grail Vow … cannot be joined by characters that have the Knight’s Vow or the Questing Vow.”

and

“Knights with the Questing Vow … cannot be joined by characters with the Knight’s Vow.”

So, a Questing Knight regiment (maybe with a Questing Knight character) can be joined by a Grail Knight character. Now imagine that you have a Questing Knight regiment with a Grail Knight in it. Does this mean that a (second) Questing Knight character cannot join the unit, because it is now kind of “graily” and not good enough for Questing Knights (except those already in it)? Or does the “cannot be joined” rule only apply to regiments, who have a rigid mentality, whilst Bretonnian characters are more mellow and informal?

Pqxy
06-05-2007, 04:12
Ok here I got for the third time.
Only talking about HOC here I dont have a beast book so Im no sure about them.

1. All chaos characters have a mark.

2. All and only chaos warriors, knights and chariots have a mark.

3. All daemons are considered to have the mark of there god.

4. No other units have or can ever have a mark.

5. "The mark affects all models in the unit and only characters bearing the same mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot"

The subject there is the unit. To join characters MUST have the same mark as the UNIT and therefor each other.

Furthmore a chaos character can never join a unit that does not have a mark like Marauders.

NakedFisherman
06-05-2007, 04:39
I'm still wondering how a character that becomes part of a unit al of a sudden changes the entire way the unit works.

There's no rule or even precedent for that.

Festus
06-05-2007, 09:26
Furthmore a chaos character can never join a unit that does not have a mark like Marauders.
Utter rubbish and nonsense.

A Marked character can freely join an Unmarked unit of the same type (Mortal-Mortal for example).

The point of the discussion is just that: A Marked character having joined an unmarked unit...

Festus

Pqxy
06-05-2007, 10:13
Utter rubbish and nonsense.

A Marked character can freely join an Unmarked unit of the same type (Mortal-Mortal for example).

The point of the discussion is just that: A Marked character having joined an unmarked unit...

Festus

Please quote the rule thanks or show the errata.

My HOC book clearly says that they can't as my quote shows.

Reinnon
06-05-2007, 10:59
mainly because the HoC book (once again) doesn't say that at all.

Once again: i refere to page 46 of the HoC book.

"Only Characters bearing the same mark can join the unit/ride the chariot"

this is the sentance that is causing the confusion, as there are two camps:

1) that this only comes into effect when the whole unit has a mark, i.e. you have a unit of Khorne Warriors

or

2) This comes into effect as soon as a mark is present in a unit.

however, your view seems to be another exterme, that only marked units can hold characters.

The HoC book states that characters can only join units with the same mark that they bare. This does not mean that units with no mark can suddenly no longer hold characters as that is a stupid leap in logic.

The Unit does not have a mark, therfore that sentance means nothing for that unit, except when you come across the idea of mixed marks and then it gets complicated as this 100+ post thread has demostrated.

you're using questionable logic, as the unit does not have a mark, how on earth can it be counted as having a mark for the purposes of character selection?

its like saying:

"This Goat can only mingle with goats of the same breed. However we lack a folk of the said breed, so lets put it in the middle of the field all alone and not with the chickens"

the chickens arn't goats, so the restriction of "only the same breed of goats in one field" logically can not apply to them.

Also, all one has to do is look at the color section of the BoC book to see that the designers definatly intended for beast characters to join beat herds.

Page 18-19 of the BoC book under the "Beatsman Herd" and "Raiders" rules makes reference to characters within the units and how they act.

all BoC characters have a mark, therefore you are wrong

TheDarkDaff
06-05-2007, 13:33
Just to borrow(i really mean steal) your goat and chickens analogue. Lets say we have this big horn goat that is only allowed in the field with other big horn goats. The chickens are fine to have in the field but can you put in a small horn goat in the same field.

The way i see it you are not allowed to have a Marked character join a unit with a different mark. If you have an Exaulted Champ of Khorne in a regiment of marauders can an Exalted Champ of Slaanesh join this unit. Can he choose to join just the Marauder Regiment part of the unit or is he also joining with the Exalted Champ of Khorne(i chose the marks to highlight the point). The second character is in essence joining 2 units(the Marauder regiment and the Khorne Champ) in one fell swoop.

Reinnon
06-05-2007, 13:43
the problem is, that this issue is all about what the word "affects" means in the sentance.

while the chicken and goats analogue is a rather simple analogue to describe this difficult problem.

for example: does the book mean if the field is all big horn goats, or if the flock contains big horn goats?

in other words: is the state of the group of animals originally important, or the state of the animals with the addition of big horn goats?

or: do chickens count as big horns when one is present, or still as chicken?

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2007, 13:47
Page 72 of the main rulebook anyone?
A character joining a unit becomes part of the unit he is with.

Therefore the unit has a mark,although only one model in the unit has the special benefits of having the mark.

This prevents character's with other marks from joining the unit.

lparigi34
06-05-2007, 13:47
I am going to say it again...

a) There is little to none upside into putting two marked characters withign the same unmarked unit (read my post #86), so, even when I do not agree with doing it, I'd let it happen.

b) One marked character cannot join a unit with a different mark. Another character with a different mark is still a unit. When a character joins an already character joined regiment he is joining two units at the same time and they all form a new unit. One of the units the characer is joining is already carrying a different mark of his own, so he can not join it.

Reinnon
06-05-2007, 13:48
unwantedbeing, please read the thread... your repeating what has been said before, and we have already put counter argument that me, T10 and others have said.

we know about page 72.

damn it i'm repeating myself

Pqxy
06-05-2007, 13:51
Do the unit and the character have the same mark?

No, then they cant join.

Yes, then they can join.

Not sure about your goats and chickens I can't see them in the rules at all.

All chaos characters have a mark you cant change that only the mark they have.
For them to join a unit it(the unit) must have the SAME mark. As per your quote.
It does not say the unit must not have a different mark, it says the SAME

lparigi34
06-05-2007, 13:58
Lets Poll this!!!

Sanjuro
06-05-2007, 14:30
Do the unit and the character have the same mark?

No, then they cant join.

Yes, then they can join.

Not sure about your goats and chickens I can't see them in the rules at all.

All chaos characters have a mark you cant change that only the mark they have.
For them to join a unit it(the unit) must have the SAME mark. As per your quote.
It does not say the unit must not have a different mark, it says the SAME


So you would enforce the opinion that a Wargor cannot join a Beastherd?

potemkin
06-05-2007, 16:42
Characters, units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights, and Chaos Chariots are assumed to have the mark of Chaos Undivided (see opposite page). They can replace the Mark of Chaos Undivided with the Mark of a specific Chaos God at the additional cost shown opposite. Each of the five Marks bestows its benefits on the character, unit or chariot bearing it. The Mark affects all models in the unit and only characters bearings the same Mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot.
As I read this, this rule only apply to Characters, units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights, and Chaos Chariots. So it doesn't matter if a eg. Marauder unit is joined by a Marked Character.

In addition (I think) the term "unit" refer to "units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights", and NOT the game term "unit" from the main rulebook

Pqxy
06-05-2007, 23:52
So you would enforce the opinion that a Wargor cannot join a Beastherd?

I have had a look at the beasts book and yes I guess so.

All said and done I know it sounds weird but thats what the rules say, I think

Its not worth fighting over though now is it, so I guess we can all just agree to disagree.

Shant post on this topic again. ;)

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2007, 23:58
Wha?
madness...the beasts of chaos book simply refers to units with a mark being only joinable by character's with the same mark.

Which fits the bill that an unmarked unit with a character in it,cannot be joined by a character with a different mark to the one already in it...

Seeing as the character is part of the unit therefore the unit has a mark,albeit doesnt benefit from the specific rules that go with it.....

I dont see why I bother voicing my opinion with the rules to back it up.....

potemkin
07-05-2007, 00:38
"Characters, Tuskgor Chariots and up to one unit of Bestigor are assumed to have the Chaos Undivided" (first sentence of the rule in BoC page 60).

The rest of the rule still only apply to those units.

So a Character with a Mark can join any other unit type regardless of Marks.

Atrahasis
07-05-2007, 01:21
"Characters, Tuskgor Chariots and up to one unit of Bestigor are assumed to have the Chaos Undivided" (first sentence of the rule in BoC page 60).

The rest of the rule still only apply to those units.

So a Character with a Mark can join any other unit type regardless of Marks.

Close, but not quite - units of minotaurs can also be marked, and if they are then they can be joined only by characters with the same mark.

TheDarkDaff
07-05-2007, 01:30
"Characters, Tuskgor Chariots and up to one unit of Bestigor are assumed to have the Chaos Undivided" (first sentence of the rule in BoC page 60).

The rest of the rule still only apply to those units.

So a Character with a Mark can join any other unit type regardless of Marks.

And when a Marked Character joins a unit consisting of another Marked Character and an unmarked regiment he is joining another marked unit(ie the other Character) as well as an unmarked unit(the regiment). The second character joins both component units of the whole unit.

potemkin
07-05-2007, 01:55
And when a Marked Character joins a unit consisting of another Marked Character and an unmarked regiment he is joining another marked unit(ie the other Character) as well as an unmarked unit(the regiment). The second character joins both component units of the whole unit.

A Character only counts as a unit while on his own, when he joins a unit he becomes part of that unit (and is no longer a unit himself).

So eg. a Swordman unit joined by a Character is still only a Swordman unit, not a Swordman unit and Character unit, and any new Character that joins it still only join a Swordman unit (and not the character).

Atrahasis
07-05-2007, 02:05
He is part of the unit, therefore the unit cannot be a swordsman unit, it is a unit consisting of swordsmen and characters.

BattleofLund
07-05-2007, 02:36
I can't add anything new in the rulebook quote department, but then again this thread doesn't seem to need new stuff. It just keeps chewing the cud.

Beginning to see how you folks rack up your massive post counts. :)

Apologies for what I am about to do: getting fluffy/silly, which is how we usually work these things out in our dungeon.

Why won't a Khornate Champion join a Slaanesh Knight unit? Because either he or the knights, or both, would end up dead. Fighting each other, not contributing to the General's battle plan (=ending up dead fighting the enemy).

However, if two Champions of different Powers join a mob of lesser mortals, then they don't have to rub shoulders. Might even foster a healthy competition between 'em, trying to impress the public, outdoing each other etc.

As for the one who shant post on this topic again, and whose name (pqxy) is responsible for my sprained tongue, the trouble seems to be with distinguishing between 'THE' and 'A'. 'The' unit as in 'the [marked] unit', may only be joined by a character bearing the same mark. This is not synonymous with 'A unit may only be joined by a character if they both have the same mark'.

:eek:
OHMYCHAOSGODS now I'm quoting too
I'm so sorry
I go away now

potemkin
07-05-2007, 02:49
He is part of the unit, therefore the unit cannot be a swordsman unit, it is a unit consisting of swordsmen and characters.

Rulebook page 72.
JOINING AND LEAVING UNITS
Characters normally move and fight on their own.
In effect, a character counts as an individual unit
comprising of only one model. However, during the
course of a battle, a character is allowed to join a
friendly unit of troops infantry, cavalry unit of
chariots or a war machine's crew, but never a
monster, single chariot, unit of flyers or another
character! In this case, he becomes part of that unit
until he decides to leave it.


That clearly says a Character becomes part of the unit.

If a unit with a character in it counted as a "unit and character" other charcters would not be able to join, because characters cannot join characters.

Ninsaneja
07-05-2007, 04:47
Part of the problem with this is the difference in opinion between "having a mark" and "buying a mark." Units that have bought a mark will have the benefits. However, units that have a mark will still count as having a mark within the unit whether they bought the mark or not. The part which describes the effects of marks and refers to the entire unit refers to units that bought a mark, not to units that contain a mark added after the game started.

Let me ask you this. There is a wargor with a mark of chaos undivided within a beastherd. Are you willing to tell me that the unit contains no marks? If so, then you can go ahead and join him with another different mark.

This would also apply to such things as vows and sacred spawnings if they shared the same wordings (not sure as I only have one of the three relevant books.)

sulla
07-05-2007, 06:23
Let me ask you this. There is a wargor with a mark of chaos undivided within a beastherd. Are you willing to tell me that the unit contains no marks? If so, then you can go ahead and join him with another different mark.

This would also apply to such things as vows and sacred spawnings if they shared the same wordings (not sure as I only have one of the three relevant books.)

I'll say it once again; if this was the rule written in the chaos rulebooks, I would play it that way but this is not the rule in either chaos rulebook. The rule forbids characters joining a unit marked differently to himself. It does not forbid him joining an unmarked unit with a character with a different mark within it. An unmarked unit never becomes a marked unit, no matter how many marked characters are within it. There is simply no rule to support this.

MarcoPollo
07-05-2007, 06:39
I'll say it once again; if this was the rule written in the chaos rulebooks, I would play it that way but this is not the rule in either chaos rulebook. The rule forbids characters joining a unit marked differently to himself. It does not forbid him joining an unmarked unit with a character with a different mark within it. An unmarked unit never becomes a marked unit, no matter how many marked characters are within it. There is simply no rule to support this.

Fully agreed.

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 12:11
Character joins a unit.
The unit now has a mark as part of it.

So no other mark can be part of that unit.Because the UNIT NOW HAS A MARK......
*sigh*

If not then where does the chaos champions mark go?
Because it cannot exist if he is classed as being unmarked.
So he must lose the rules for being marked of that particular god.

potemkin
07-05-2007, 13:11
Character joins a unit.
The unit now has a mark as part of it.

So no other mark can be part of that unit.Because the UNIT NOW HAS A MARK......
*sigh*

If not then where does the chaos champions mark go?
Because it cannot exist if he is classed as being unmarked.
So he must lose the rules for being marked of that particular god.

The rule about Characters joining units still only apply to:
BoC: "Characters, Tuskgor Chariots and up to one unit of Bestigor are assumed to have the Chaos Undivided."
HoC: "Characters, units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights, and Chaos Chariots are assumed to have the mark of Chaos Undivided (see opposite page)."
First sentence of the paragraph in the armybooks.

"The Mark affects all models in the unit and only characters bearings the same Mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot."
Last Sentence of the paragraph in the armybooks.

The "the unit" is a reference to the first sentence, so it is only "up to one unit of Bestigor" and "units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights" Characters need to have the same mark as.

The rule NEVER indicate that it apply to all units in the armybooks.

So it is not important if, eg. a Beastherd with a Character in it, counts as having a mark when a second Character joins.

Reinnon
07-05-2007, 13:15
a very good point, i never saw that passage in the book

Atrahasis
07-05-2007, 13:22
I must confess I have been arguing as devil's advocate since about halfway down page 1.

However, I still maintain that potemkin's argument that the rule applies only to the specified unit types is false, for the simple reason that Minotaurs can take a mark and characters with a different mark would be able to join them by his reasoning.

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 13:25
If the argument is true then what about daemons?
Seems that they arent inlcuded in the rules for character's joining marked units.

So say....a bloodthirster should then be able to join a unit of daemonettes if the rule about joining units only applies to those specifically mentioned in the haordes of chaos and beasts of chaos text.

One of the reasons I belive that differeing marks do not band together in the same unit,even if there is only one of the opposing mark within the unit.

Reinnon
07-05-2007, 13:26
except thats not possible due to the wording of page 60, which prohibits characters from doing that.

Whats important is that the beast herd does not have a mark to begin with.

i won't quote it as i think the page has been quoted over a million times in this thread

hmmm, i've just noticed that you can only give minotaurs a mark that is the same as the general, never seen that before

Atrahasis
07-05-2007, 13:33
except thats not possible due to the wording of page 60, which prohibits characters from doing that.Potemkin just said it doesn't. Make your mind up.

Reinnon
07-05-2007, 13:42
no, what pot has said is that units referes to a set unit, not a character and unit.

the restriction on marks still applies, and as a minotaur is an marked unit and not an unmarked unit.

it would be just as idiotic to assume a minotaur unit isn't marked when it clearly is marked.

oh, and demons are covered on page 51 of the BoC book

Atrahasis
07-05-2007, 13:49
no, what pot has said is that units referes to a set unit, not a character and unit.

the restriction on marks still applies, and as a minotaur is an marked unit and not an unmarked unit.

it would be just as idiotic to assume a minotaur unit isn't marked when it clearly is marked.

oh, and demons are covered on page 51 of the BoC book

You might want to reread potemkin's post and see what you are agreeing with.

He is saying that the restrictions on joining units only applies to the stated units (chaos warriors, knights, chariots, and up to one unit of bestigor).

potemkin
07-05-2007, 13:53
I know that Minotaurs and Deamons are a problem.

The rule in HoC and BoC is a very badly written one, as I think the intent of the rule was the cover all Marked units (but not unmarked ones).

But I stand by what I have written... from a RAW point of view

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 15:16
A character joining an unmarked unit with a marked charcter in isnt joining just the unmarked unit,he is joining the character within that unit as well.
So if he has a different mark he cannot join it.

It doesnt matter if the unit didnt have a mark to begin with,the unit NOW has a mark within it.
Which prevents other marks from joining the unit.

potemkin
07-05-2007, 15:18
A character joining an unmarked unit with a marked charcter in isnt joining just the unmarked unit,he is joining the character within that unit as well.
So if he has a different mark he cannot join it.

this is just WRONG... a Character cannot join another Character.

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 15:50
That wasnt what I said at all.

Negativemoney
07-05-2007, 16:21
It doesnt matter if the unit didnt have a mark to begin with,the unit NOW has a mark within it.

This is a true statement as the unit now has a mark within its ranks but the unit itself does not have the mark.

One thing to note when dealing with multiple characters in units is that once the unit is destroyed the characters are no longer considered to be part of the same unit as there is a rule in characters stating that 2 characters can not form a unit with each other.



Which prevents other marks from joining the unit.

There is nothing in the rules to support the statement. Marks do not carry over to the unit. This has been stated several times and no one has disagreed with that fact. Since the unit does not have the mark characters can freely join the unit regarless of their marks.

Ninsaneja
07-05-2007, 16:22
this is just WRONG... a Character cannot join another Character.

Are you saying that a character can't join a unit that has another character in it at all? The character has become part of the unit. He is no longer an independent character while in the unit and does not follow the rules for being an independent character. He is a part of the unit in all respects. In fact, he is now leading the unit, as they will use his leadership unless for some reason it's lower than theirs (can only think of one or two examples where this happens, wizard + elite unit for example or skinks in a saurus unit).

In terms of RAW, as the character is now part of the unit the unit now contains a mark and thus can't be joined by a different mark. Unless the character loses his mark for joining the unit, the unit has a mark (which does not affect most of the unit because they didn't BUY the mark, which is what gives the effects.)

In terms of FLUFF, a character should not be joining a unit with a differently marked character as they will beat the stuffing out of each other.

T10
07-05-2007, 17:47
In terms of RAW, as the character is now part of the unit the unit now contains a mark and thus can't be joined by a different mark.

In terms of RAW, as the character is now a part of an unmarked unit, he does not restrict other Marked characters from joining, regardless of those characters' Mark.

An easy mistake-a to make-a.

-T10

Festus
07-05-2007, 18:30
Hi

In terms of RAW, as the character is now a part of an unmarked unit, he does not restrict other Marked characters from joining, regardless of those characters' Mark.
This happens to be your mantra recently. This does not make it any more right or wrong.

You've told your point of view several limes already - and that is what it is: A point of view.

Obviously, the rules allow for at least two interpretations of the proper procedure, and none is RAW - both need some basic assumptions.

If you do not believe me (in both instances) re-read the thread if you like to. :D

Festus

T10
07-05-2007, 20:22
The controversy hinges on the unfortunate misconception that "the character being part of the unit" has any relevance to whether "differently marked characters can join the unmarked unit". That's pretty much the discussion summed up, right there.

It clearly does not, but it seems people take comfort in clinging to that kind of a straw to justify enforcing the fluff: it's a hell of a lot more comfortable to tell people a loophole does not exists than it is relying on people not to abuse it.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
07-05-2007, 20:23
And on that note this thread should draw to a close.

Any other contributions will merely be repetitions of interpretations repeated too many times.

Festus
07-05-2007, 21:03
Any other contributions will merely be repetitions of interpretations repeated too many times.
As I said :)

It is nice to see that we can still agree sometimes, DDraich ;)

FEstus

Sanjuro
07-05-2007, 21:40
However, a new question has cropped up during this thread.

Can marked characters, or can they not, join unmarked units?

A previous poster implied that, according to RAW, they may indeed not.

I.e. no Wargors in Beastherds, etc.

Atrahasis
07-05-2007, 21:50
Its not in question at all - the rules for marks apply to marked units only.

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 21:57
Well I guess using RAW does sortof mean you cant put characters in unmarked units.

Mainly due to the paragraph
"the mark affects all models in the unit and only character's bearing the same mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot"

Although it does say "only character's bearing the same mark may join the unit"
Which implies that only character's of a single mark may join a unit.
Unit being a marked or unmarked one.

Not that it really matters if you presume the first thing to be true.

xmbk
07-05-2007, 22:10
This is written without any proof at all. You think so, but I think that you think wrongly.

A Mark is something, a unit (this meaning chariots/characters/regiments) has. True.

But certain units can be joined during the course of the game to form larger units - this unit (game term for character AND regiment in our case) certainly has a Mark in its midst, doesn't it?

Festus

He needs no proof. The rules make no allowance for changing a unit's Mark during gameplay. You're being argumentative, because you know as well as anyone that rules say what you can do, not what you can't.

The German version may be poorly worded, but the English version is quite clear that it references a unit's Mark (p46). All this talk about there being a Mark in the unit is unfounded silliness.

Atrahasis
07-05-2007, 22:45
Well I guess using RAW does sortof mean you cant put characters in unmarked units.

Mainly due to the paragraph
"the mark affects all models in the unit and only character's bearing the same mark can join the unit/ride in the chariot"That rule only applies if the unit has a mark. Unmarked units don't (unsurprisingly).

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 22:50
A marked character within a unit means the unit has a mark.

potemkin
07-05-2007, 22:56
A character joining an unmarked unit with a marked charcter in isnt joining just the unmarked unit,he is joining the character within that unit as well.
So if he has a different mark he cannot join it.

It doesnt matter if the unit didnt have a mark to begin with,the unit NOW has a mark within it.
Which prevents other marks from joining the unit.


this is just WRONG... a Character cannot join another Character.


That wasnt what I said at all.

It might not have been what you wanted to say... but it was what you wrote

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 23:18
Okay....
You wrote "a Character can join another Character"
Sure there is the word not in it,but thats doesnt back up what I typed so I am choosing to ignore it.

Im still standing with my initial view that you cant have 2 character's of different marks within the same unit.

potemkin
07-05-2007, 23:26
HoC page 46 (again)
Characters, units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos
Knights, and Chaos Chariots are assumed to have the
Mark of Chaos Undivided (see opposite page). They
can replace the Mark of Chaos Undivided with the
Mark of a specific Chaos God at the additional cost
shown opposite. Each of the five Marks bestows its
benefits on the character, unit or chariot bearing it.
The Mark affects all models in the unit and only
characters bearing the same Mark can join the
unit/ride in the chariot.


This is all one paragraph, and the ONLY units mentioned in that are Characters, Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights, and Chaos Chariots.

Now.. this is clearly not the intent (I think) since Deamons also are Marked (and in BoC Minotaurs can be).

But IMO anyone who claim that the rule says anything else, is arguing intent and not RAW.

IMO the intent was that the rule should apply to all Marked units.

Nightsong
07-05-2007, 23:27
So, if we have two unmarked llama's in a pen, then 3 unmarked goats in a field, can a marked chicken join the goats or should it join the llamas? Fluff wise, i would have to say that the chicken should be unable to join the goats because they are in a field and chickens should never run lose because then you can't find thier eggs. However since in this case, the chicken in not there to lay eggs so it doesn't really matter.

Now if the chicken joins the llamas, they would be in a pen and therefore would fit with fluff a little better, but as we know, llamas spit and chickens don't, so that brings up a whole other issue that I just don't feel that we should get into on this thread.

So in conclusion, it doesn't matter where the marked chicken ends up, since it has no effect on the game what so ever. So if you are playing against me you may place your chick where ever you like, as long as it is joining a unit that can not have a mark of its own or a unit that has the same mark.

BattleofLund
08-05-2007, 00:07
Bad Nightsong, now I've gotten hungry again. Wonder if they have llama meat down at Saluhallen?

Mmm, llama and eggs...

xmbk
08-05-2007, 00:12
A marked character within a unit means the unit has a mark.

There is nothing in the rules to support this statement. More importantly, it has no relevance to the wording on page 46. An unmarked unit remains so no matter what models join it. The fact that there is a marked character in the unit changes nothing, insofar as page 46 is concerned.

Did I miss something? Shouldn't there be a tea party in this Jabberwocky thread?

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 00:22
There may well be nothing to support a marked unit making an unmarked unit count as marked,but there is less rules support for an unmarked unit staying unmarked when joined by a character.

ie.
A unit joined by a fear causer is now immune to fear just like the fear causer.

Nightsong
08-05-2007, 00:31
There may well be nothing to support a marked unit making an unmarked unit count as marked,but there is less rules support for an unmarked unit staying unmarked when joined by a character.

ie.
A unit joined by a fear causer is now immune to fear just like the fear causer.

Thats has more to do with the rules for fear than for Marks of Chaos, after all a llama causes fear regardless of the other animals around it...mostly because they bite.

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 00:58
Okay....well shame there are no character that are unable to join units immune to fear.As then I'de have a direct comparison.
Ah well..nevermind.

A marked character within an unmarked unit means the unit has a mark,albeit not all of it,and not all of it benefits/suffers from the specific rules associated with that mark.

Which is why I say treat it like a marked unit,rather than an unmarked one,as thats going against the character being part of the unit when he has joined it.
As his mark appears to lose its effect and count as "unmarked" despite still allowing him to benefit/suffer from the rules assosiated with having his "mark" which he seems not to have anymore by being part of the unmarked unit.

llama chicken goat

sulla
08-05-2007, 06:52
There may well be nothing to support a marked unit making an unmarked unit count as marked,but there is less rules support for an unmarked unit staying unmarked when joined by a character.

ie.
A unit joined by a fear causer is now immune to fear just like the fear causer.

And yet an immune to psychology character that joins a unit that is not immune to psychology loses his immunity. Whether a psychological effect transfers to the unit or not has no relevence to the argument whatsoever or else you could argue that an unmarked unit joined by a marked character may gain some of the mark but equally the character may lose the mark.

T10
08-05-2007, 07:49
A marked character within a unit means the unit has a mark.

But does not mean that the unit *is Marked*. If it did it would mean that all models in the unit benefit from the Mark.

-T10

Krankenstein
08-05-2007, 15:57
Still no takers on the bretonnian Vows?

Can a Questing Knight character join a Questing Knight unit with a Grail Knight in it?

Seems like the same question to me.

MarcoPollo
08-05-2007, 16:15
Still no takers on the bretonnian Vows?

Can a Questing Knight character join a Questing Knight unit with a Grail Knight in it?

Seems like the same question to me.

Or what about a questing knight and a grail knight in a peasent unit. All of a sudden you have 3 vows together in a unit; grail, questing and peasent. With the restrictions on a unit accepting a knight of lesser Vow, you would think that the unit could not include both knights.

Maybe it has something to do with the order that the two knights joined the unit.

I think this is a valid sub-argument and a thread could be devoted to this as well.

lparigi34
08-05-2007, 16:15
Simmilar, but not quite the same. The brettonian issue is regarding seniority, so Grail Knights would never accept and inferior Questing Knight to lead them.

In the case you ask for, there is no problem at all, as the Grail Knight superior will be seen as leading the Questing Knights, even its characters.

The Chaos case is more of a religious nature, basically the Chaos Gods do not like each other much, as they all would like to be the supreme god above all the others, su "fluffwise" that's why marked characters cannot join units with different marks.

As for differently marked characters within unmarked units is very unlikely that this two characters will be haapy at all sharing the leadiership of the unit, so probably it does not happen.

MarcoPollo
08-05-2007, 17:59
Simmilar, but not quite the same. The brettonian issue is regarding seniority, so Grail Knights would never accept and inferior Questing Knight to lead them.

In the case you ask for, there is no problem at all, as the Grail Knight superior will be seen as leading the Questing Knights, even its characters.

The Chaos case is more of a religious nature, basically the Chaos Gods do not like each other much, as they all would like to be the supreme god above all the others, su "fluffwise" that's why marked characters cannot join units with different marks.

As for differently marked characters within unmarked units is very unlikely that this two characters will be haapy at all sharing the leadiership of the unit, so probably it does not happen.

Interesting point here.

I wonder if it would suit the fluff if two bray shaman of different marks were to join a beastherd with the beastherd champion. The beastherd champion has a higher leadership than both bray shaman. So the bray shaman would be lead by the champion of the unit which is unmarked. They wouldn't be sharing any leadership of the unit.

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 18:19
It's not so much sharing leadership.
It's more fighting "with" their hatred brethren.

Hence why you cant have a tzeentch champion in a nurgle unit for example.
The tzeentch champion refuses to join the unit,and even if he is wanting to join the unit(for wahtever unfathomable reason) the nurgle unit will refuse to accept him as being part of the unit.

This "should" extend to any 2 character's wanting to be in the same unmarked unit,although the rules arent overly clear on it.

It's really down to whether you think a champion "leading" an unmarked unit will allow a differently marked champion to "lead" with him.

Im sure the unmakred unit doesnt really care on the matter,but the champion within the unit does,and will assert his authority about it.

Fluffwise that is,there's no fluffy reason to have characters of differing marks all fighting in the same unit(other than they are in the same unit with archaon of course).

xmbk
08-05-2007, 18:38
The only problem with the fluff argument is that Undivided counts as a mark. If an Undivided general wants his Slaanesh concubine by his side, who are we to say no? ;)

Most marks don't mix. But some do. If someone wants to abuse the rules in an unfluffy way, I'm sure he'll eventually hear it from his opponents.

Krankenstein
08-05-2007, 18:47
Simmilar, but not quite the same. The brettonian issue is regarding seniority, so Grail Knights would never accept and inferior Questing Knight to lead them.

In the case you ask for, there is no problem at all, as the Grail Knight superior will be seen as leading the Questing Knights, even its characters.



That's fluff reasoning; this is the rules forum.

If a Grail Knight character turns a Questing Unit “Graily” a Questing Knight character cannot join (join, not lead) the regiment. If a Grail Knight does not turn the Questing Knights “Graily”, then why should a Nurgle character turn a regiment “Nurgly”?

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 19:01
Brettonian vows and marks are not the same thing.
There is a heirarchy to it all that doesnt exist with chaos marks.
1.Grail vow
2.Questing Vow
3.Knights Vow

You can only be part of a specific unit if your vow is equal to or greater than the vow of the unit.

As opposed to Chaos marks where the heirarchy is this:
1.Marked
2.Unmarked
3.Different marks to your own

Having ANY mark prohibits you from joining any marked unit that is diferent to your own,Full Stop.

So marks arent like Bretonnian vows,and thet definitely dont work in the same way.

lparigi34
08-05-2007, 20:47
The only problem with the fluff argument is that Undivided counts as a mark. If an Undivided general wants his Slaanesh concubine by his side, who are we to say no? ;)

Most marks don't mix. But some do. If someone wants to abuse the rules in an unfluffy way, I'm sure he'll eventually hear it from his opponents.

Well, the catch here is that the important thing is that you have 4 gods and each have its worshippers, but you have 5 marks when you count Undivided, that worships all gods at the same time.

So I agree, marks don't mix except when there is a blending religious reason, like an Undivided general or Archaon, representing united armies in their effort to spread the chaos powers, still, two individual models with different marks should never go together in a battle unles one of them is marked Undivided (this is "fluffwise" ruling, not RAW at all, so please save your flames, just my oppinion on how it should be played due to the hole in the current rules, and not how it actually is or will be ruled)

I like the concubine idea! ;)


That's fluff reasoning; this is the rules forum.

If a Grail Knight character turns a Questing Unit “Graily” a Questing Knight character cannot join (join, not lead) the regiment. If a Grail Knight does not turn the Questing Knights “Graily”, then why should a Nurgle character turn a regiment “Nurgly”?

A Grail character does not turn the Questing Knights unit "Graily" :wtf: you made this up, he just lead them, and actually is quite the opposite as a Grail Knight inmune to psicology will lose it when he joins the Questing Knights that only ingnore panic caused by units or models with the Peasant's Duty. It is a Hierarchy thing, nothing else.

If you any information that says the contrary, please quote, as I have both thr BRB and the Bretonnia Rulebook and cannot find it.

Sorry to say, but in WHFB rules are very supported by the fluff and in the particular case above, whether you like "fluffwise" or not, it is.

As for the Chaos fluff, I stated it because rules in WHFB have a fluff background and that is one of the beauties of the game. I did not say what the rule is or anything as IMO it can go either way as is of little consequence to the game.

In the chaos rules there is no Hierarchy among the four gods, they just despice each other, but not as much as the do other races...

Krankenstein
08-05-2007, 21:57
So marks arent like Bretonnian vows,and thet definitely dont work in the same way.

A Questing Knight character cannot join Grail Knights. Don't dodge the question: Can a Questing Knight join a unit of Questing Knights with a Grail Knight character in it?



A Grail character does not turn the Questing Knights unit "Graily" :wtf: you made this up, he just lead them, and actually is quite the opposite as a Grail Knight inmune to psicology will lose it when he joins the Questing Knights that only ingnore panic caused by units or models with the Peasant's Duty. It is a Hierarchy thing, nothing else.

If you any information that says the contrary, please quote, as I have both thr BRB and the Bretonnia Rulebook and cannot find it.

Sorry to say, but in WHFB rules are very supported by the fluff and in the particular case above, whether you like "fluffwise" or not, it is.


You have not understood a word I have written. Which I suppose works well for you, as it keeps you from facing the actual issue. Can a Questing Knight join a unit of Questing Knights with a Grail Knight character in it?

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 22:28
No he cannot.
Although the 2 can join the same unit if the questing knight joins the unit first.

Sanjuro
08-05-2007, 22:45
No he cannot.
Although the 2 can join the same unit if the questing knight joins the unit first.

You have got to be kidding... :D

lparigi34
08-05-2007, 23:06
You have not understood a word I have written. Which I suppose works well for you, as it keeps you from facing the actual issue. Can a Questing Knight join a unit of Questing Knights with a Grail Knight character in it?

Well.. then let me state this clear enough, the answer is Yes.

Why? already explained twice.

The order in which the characters join the unit is of no consequence. The Questing Knight (QK) unit does not become "Graily" because of the presence of the Grail Knight (GK), the QN can join the unit and thus become subordinated to the GK. The GK already accepted this when he joined the unit of lesser knights.

If a knightly character wants to join a regiment of higher kinghtly status the thing is different. A bunch of upitty knigths simply do not allow lesser beings to hang arount with them.

Krankenstein
08-05-2007, 23:30
The order in which the characters join the unit is of no consequence. The Questing Knight (QK) unit does not become "Graily" because of the presence of the Grail Knight (GK), the QN can join the unit and thus become subordinated to the GK. The GK already accepted this when he joined the unit of lesser knights.


Looks like a bunch of fluff reasoning you just made up. “Subordinated”? The Questing Knight character might be the general!

The rule is “Knights with the Grail Vow … cannot be joined by characters who have the Knight’s Vow or the Questing Vow.” Full stop. Paragraph ends.

If a Grail Knight character in a Questing Knight unit accepts Questing Knight characters, then it is not because of any special rule on the subject. There aren’t any. It because that’s how Warhammer treats these issues.

lparigi34
09-05-2007, 00:49
Looks like a bunch of fluff reasoning you just made up. “Subordinated”? The Questing Knight character might be the general!

The rule is “Knights with the Grail Vow … cannot be joined by characters who have the Knight’s Vow or the Questing Vow.” Full stop. Paragraph ends.

If a Grail Knight character in a Questing Knight unit accepts Questing Knight characters, then it is not because of any special rule on the subject. There aren’t any. It because that’s how Warhammer treats these issues.

So it seems we are on the same side? or what? you just stated the rule, and the Questing Knight character can be the Lady's favorite, her husband, the general or whatever he might become, he still is not a Grail Knight and cannoy join a GK regiment (no fluff explanations anymore and, up to here, we seem to agree).

But then you are veering off here :evilgrin:, you were questioning if a Questing Knight may join a Questing Knights regiment already joined by a Grail Knight.

Final answer to the above is Yes, you quoted the rule yourself and nothing mention it, Questing units do not become "Graily", that's a made up, so RAW if you still want to question this give a good ruling explanation (no fluff here either, happy?)

Now the fluff :rolleyes:


"The social order of Bretonnia is determined by a series of creeds and tenets laid down hundreds of years ago..." and "As such, no Grail Knight would willingly be led by a mere Questing Knight, or, Lady forbid, a Knight of the Realm. Exceptions are rare, and in other matters a knight will generally bow to one of a more senior order."


So Knights bow to someone of a more senior order... Is not this subordination? So if you had read the rulebook you'd have realized this was not my reasoning and sure not made up. :p

Krankenstein
09-05-2007, 11:10
lparigi34: It is clear you do not understand what I’m writing. It is also clear that you a very smug about this state of affairs. Far be it from me to stand in the way of another person’s happiness, so that’s that.


For everyone else, I’ll just repeat my point: baring special rules, “character repulsion” should work the same for all armies in Warhammer. If you feel silly applying a principle to bretonnians, then you should reconsider whether to apply the same principle to Chaos. If you are ready to apply the same principles of “character repulsion” to both Chaos and Bretonnia, then your view at least is consistent.

lparigi34
09-05-2007, 11:46
lparigi34: It is clear you do not understand what I’m writing. It is also clear that you a very smug about this state of affairs. Far be it from me to stand in the way of another person’s happiness, so that’s that.

Since in my non-native english I have no Idea what Smug is, then lets skip this part. I never took it personnally. I apologize for whatever tone I used that caused this. :angel:

lparigi34
09-05-2007, 11:51
lFor everyone else, I’ll just repeat my point: baring special rules, “character repulsion” should work the same for all armies in Warhammer. If you feel silly applying a principle to bretonnians, then you should reconsider whether to apply the same principle to Chaos. If you are ready to apply the same principles of “character repulsion” to both Chaos and Bretonnia, then your view at least is consistent.

Sorry to answer this, since is for every one else but not to me :mad:.

I disagree, if we think in this terms of uniformity we all will end up playing the same armies, lets say we all play empire...

The nature of the things that causes the "character repulsion" for the Chaos is quite different for that of the Bretonnians, as well as the nature of a daemon differs of that of a human, and therefore follow different rules.

ForHire
21-09-2007, 05:11
Nice.

I like the way you guys interpret this rule. This way I can create combinations of characters in the unit that make things completely against the backstory and fluff of the game.

Woot!

In my next really big game, I'm going to take a unit of unmarked Minotaurs. In the unit are going to be 2 Doombulls of Khorne, cause they'll be nice and attacky. Give all the Minotaurs 2 hand weapons...more attackyness. And then...since I CAN...I'm going to take an Aspiring Champion of Slaanesh! I'll put him on a steed so he can keep up with the Minotaurs when he joins the unit. Make him the battlestandard bearer...because all my Khorne units will just love that...and give him the Rapturous Standard.

Oooh, as I hit submit I had an even BETTER idea! I'll take 2 Khorne Doombulls, and my Aspiring Battlestandard bearer....and I'll join an unmarked Bestigor unit...why?...because now I can give that unit the Vitriolic Totem! Sweet! Now my front rank has 16 attacks, all hitting on 3s, pretty much going first, oh, and all the attacks are poisoned!

Thanks!

I usually try to interpret the rules with the history and thought behind the game in mind. I'm really glad there are people out there who don't and can teach me just how to make up broken combos like that one.

This game just became SO much more fun. Now I can spend my time trying to break it even more.

It's a good thing tournaments have comp scores, next time I see this my opponents getting the lowest possible composition and sportsmanship scores I can think of.

metro_gnome
21-09-2007, 14:44
unfortunatley the mortal character may not join the beast unit...

T10
21-09-2007, 17:02
Thanks!

I usually try to interpret the rules with the history and thought behind the game in mind. I'm really glad there are people out there who don't and can teach me just how to make up broken combos like that one.

This game just became SO much more fun. Now I can spend my time trying to break it even more.

It's a good thing tournaments have comp scores, next time I see this my opponents getting the lowest possible composition and sportsmanship scores I can think of.

Don't hold back. Let it all out, that's a good boy. Let it all out.

-T10