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big7samuraifan
02-05-2007, 23:43
Does anyone have any idea what so ever if GW ever plans on a Nippon/Samurai army again? Any rumours? :cries:

Orcboy_Phil
03-05-2007, 00:05
Yep 2010-12 sometime just after Fishermen.

Freenut
03-05-2007, 00:26
Does anyone have any idea what so ever if GW ever plans on a Nippon/Samurai army again? Any rumours? :cries:

If anybody knows no one is telling.

jahorin
03-05-2007, 01:52
I really though that Araby army was supposed to be out before the Fishman... I guess I was wrong :)

On a more serious, nobody heard anything.

Ravenous
03-05-2007, 02:24
Actually this was mentioned in white dwarf about a month ago.

They said it pretty flat out, Oriental armies wont happen because in the warhammer world they DONT exist. So dont expect it anytime soon until you see some legitimate fluff sources. Although the Orges resemble mongolians

Now that doesnt stop you from making a themed empire army.

TheWarSmith
03-05-2007, 03:06
But Araby still does seem to be a good front runner as far as the next(if even) "new" army.

Harry
03-05-2007, 07:16
I agree. I think we will see Araby before we see Cathay and beyond.
However, I wouldn't be suprised if we saw Chaos Dwarfs before Araby.
I also think they have got to resolve what they are going to do with Dogs of War to establish whats going on in Tilia and Estalia before they do Araby. (if they are, in fact, spreading out from the center of the old world).
So if Nippon/Samuri are even considered they are so far off its not even worth talking about it.

Jedi152
03-05-2007, 07:54
I seriously hope they never do it.

Araby would be good, Nippon and Cathay no! Fanboys only want them so they can live out their otaku feudal Japanese fantasies.

Archaon
03-05-2007, 09:22
Which means they would be a very popular army which also means big $$ for GW.

However they are currently neck deep in the normal stuff and surely don't have the ressources to introduce another new army right now. It will be a new decade before they even begin to think about something like that.

Tutore
03-05-2007, 09:47
IIRC there was an "official" rumor around here a couple of months ago regarding Gav saying that a cathay army was not in discussion.

lilljonas
03-05-2007, 10:01
Hell, I'm making a Nippon army and I'm the first to say that a GW-made Nippon army is totally uncalled for. They are way too far from the Old World to be a major player in the WHFB world, and you can do their list easily with Empire. The lists that have no 7th edition lists should be a much higher priority. Then Chaos Dwarfs. Then perhaps Araby. Now we're in like, 2012, and ready for 8th edition. ;) I sincerely hope (and believe) that the designers sees it the same way, and from what I've heard, there's no plans at all to introduce Cathay, Nippon or Ind.

Just use Empire or buy the coming WAB Far East book.

druchii7
03-05-2007, 12:59
It's a bad new. they'll some day in the very far release nippon. and then they'll regret not having released them before...

in fact, high elf rules are a very good idea. they're quite suitable.

at the beginning of this edition I heard that mercenaries would posibly have tilea, araby and cathay specialization... but you shuoldn't take it as a serious rumour

darkprincewilson
03-05-2007, 13:06
Thread to be closed in 3.....2......1......

lilljonas
03-05-2007, 13:18
Thread to be closed in 3.....2......1......

...happy birthday!

DarthSte
03-05-2007, 13:32
With Araby released as a Warmaster range, it only makes sense that they'll up the scale before too long.
Cathay/Nippon would be nice, they did some really nice Ninja models in the '80s (and a Ninja Ogre maneater and Gnoblar recently), so it may happen one day, just don't be surprised if they are no longer humans in the Ninja suits.

emperorpenguin
03-05-2007, 13:42
Araby would be good, Nippon and Cathay no! Fanboys only want them so they can live out their otaku feudal Japanese fantasies.

as well as many Asian people, they're not fanboys.....
I know of many who would collect them

There is a huge market in Asia and I think GW is being very silly (especially in light of yet another profit warning) to ignore such markets

But no, there are no rumours

WarbossKurgan
03-05-2007, 13:58
Since they just announced that they will not be dropping any existing armies or adding any new ones anytime in the forseeable future it's very unlikely they will don any "Eastern-style" armies.

I think we'll be very lucky if they ever release Dogs of War or Chaos Dwarfs to be honest, let alone anything else.



:evilgrin:
Apart from the Fishmen in 2009, obviously.

Daniel36
03-05-2007, 14:04
Nippon too far off from the Old World? Lizardmen don't seem to mind...

Oriental armies not existing in the Warhammer world? The names Cathay and Nippon are most definitly there on the map.
It would be cool if they introduced them, but let them get things straight with all the other armies first, rereleasing all the outdated stuff.

C-Coen
03-05-2007, 14:33
Maybe it would be nice, maybe not..
I would quite like it.
Then we would be able to have a real big campaign, no..?
More armies is good I think. More difference.. more parts for conversions..
And yeah, they mentioned it before. Skaven Clan Eshin went there, Ogre ninja, Lizardmen in the East.. isn't the Helstorm Rocket Battery not partially from there too? Blackpowder+rocket stuff (fireworks)?

Gorbad Ironclaw
03-05-2007, 14:41
as well as many Asian people, they're not fanboys.....
I know of many who would collect them

There is a huge market in Asia and I think GW is being very silly (especially in light of yet another profit warning) to ignore such markets

But no, there are no rumours


Is it just me that think's it's a mistake and an oversimplification to automatically assume that you need an 'easter' army to appeal to the Asia market? Or even that it would appeal to them. How many of us plays armies that is anything similar to where we come from?

Neither Dark Elves, Ogres of VC reminds me much of Denmark at all...

Zerstoren
03-05-2007, 15:36
Is it just me that think's it's a mistake and an oversimplification to automatically assume that you need an 'easter' army to appeal to the Asia market? Or even that it would appeal to them. How many of us plays armies that is anything similar to where we come from?

Neither Dark Elves, Ogres of VC reminds me much of Denmark at all...

VC doesn't remind you of Denmark? I was under the impression there's something rotten in that state...

lilljonas
03-05-2007, 15:50
VC doesn't remind you of Denmark? I was under the impression there's something rotten in that state...

I've just got one word:

Riget.

baphomael
03-05-2007, 16:10
Actually this was mentioned in white dwarf about a month ago.

They said it pretty flat out, Oriental armies wont happen because in the warhammer world they DONT exist. So dont expect it anytime soon until you see some legitimate fluff sources. Although the Orges resemble mongolians

Now that doesnt stop you from making a themed empire army.

Yes they do. There is of course Araby...and fluffwise there are the nations of Ind, Cathay and Nippon. It would be a bit silly to think these grand nations dont have their own armies. However, you are right that for the time being chances are we will never see them in the game because, quite simply, Ind, Cathay and Nippon are too far away from the Old World. Fluffwise it takes a madman to try the perilous crossing along the silk road to trade with Cathay. It would be far too costly and rather pointless for an old world army to make that journey.

C-Coen
03-05-2007, 16:25
Well, most armies went across the ocean into dangerous jungles for some gold.
Why shouldn't they go another dangerous route for finding other riches?

big7samuraifan
03-05-2007, 16:30
I think I'll go with my Viking army idea after all....

lilljonas
03-05-2007, 16:33
I think I'll go with my Viking army idea after all....

Yes! Viking Marauders, Nipponese Empire, Araby DoW... join the dark side of warseeing quasi-historicals! Moahahaha! :)*

big7samuraifan
03-05-2007, 16:39
I'd use Hordes of Chaos Book (but also an Empire version of the list & a Middenhiemer version, to get 3 lists for from 1 army!).

Run as chaos undevided (yes?). All snow based... 130 to 170 models...2250 army...everything has full command and upgrades...

Lord - Acharon's horse as Odin's and add 4 more legs to horse (his famous horse had 8 legs) use the grand master of the white wolf model as Odin (has patch over eye), give him a spear (his famous spear) add 2 raven model bits & 2 wolves too (to same base or have seperate?)...Can those 2 ravens &/or wolves be used in some way for him? Like body guards or something?

Hero - Sigmar model on foot, the one with 2 hammers, use as "Thor" and remove lower held hammer and replace with a giants severed head in his grasped hand....Thor hates giants! Glowing effect to his hammer Mjolnir....I could also mount this model in a chariot (pulled by 2 goats) too, if that'd work well in tha game...

Hero - Middenhiemer shaman model on foot (one in blister) to be a Runecaster

Hero - Middenhiemer shaman model on foot (one in blister) to be a Runecaster

Maruaders on foot as Vikings (2 or 3 units of 20)

Maruaders on horse as mounted Vikings (1 or 2 units of 10)

Knights of the white wolves as mounted chaos knights (like to do 13 and convert to look like the 13 warriors from movie the 13th warrior...1 model will be araby model maybe...)

Teutogen guard as chaos knights on foot (adding big viking looking guy from black library, Ulli) (a unit of 10 of 15)

3 Middenhiemers from Mordheim line & the upcoming flagellents to be based on Spawn sized bases (on top of dead butchered bodies) to be Chaos Spawn/Viking berserkers (several of these)

10-15 wolves, to be used as blood hounds (?).

A giant, primed blue, dry brushed lighter blue, and again dry brushed white to be a Frost Giant!

5-10 Females on winged horses (dark elves?), as Valkyries! But how would or could these be used in a chaos army? Is there an entry they'd fit in?

lilljonas
03-05-2007, 16:43
I think we're waaay off topic now. Viking army ideas should be posted as a new thread IMHO.

Dread Lime
03-05-2007, 17:28
DOW list would be best for representing a Nipponese army.
Pikemen make a decent stand in for ashigaru, and samurai could be represented by other DoW units.

Cathay would probably work best as Empire, though I'm not sure on that.

Hrogoff the Destructor
03-05-2007, 17:32
I like Japanese culture and all that, but... there seems to be no real place for them in the Warhammer world. It would just be wierd to see all these Eurpoean style fantasy armies, then one random Japanese fantasy army. It would feel way too out of place.

Slann mage Tokes
03-05-2007, 19:20
Nippon too far off from the Old World? Lizardmen don't seem to mind...

Exactly. I think the distance argument is pathetic. Lizardmen, and Dark elves raid the rest of the world just fine.

On a side note are there any man made barges or settlements on the high seas?

druchii7
03-05-2007, 20:35
I think a fantasy-like oriental army with true asian inspiration would be very suitable.

modifying the world map once again would help. one of the main problems is the continuous improvisation with WFB.

Rider-Of-Kurnous
03-05-2007, 20:56
I think they ought to release a few heroes for the other places (e.g. araby, cathay) but then make you use already made armies (e.g. brettonia, empire) as these armies (e.g. brettonia=cathay, empire=araby)

emperorpenguin
03-05-2007, 21:15
Is it just me that think's it's a mistake and an oversimplification to automatically assume that you need an 'easter' army to appeal to the Asia market? Or even that it would appeal to them. How many of us plays armies that is anything similar to where we come from?

Neither Dark Elves, Ogres of VC reminds me much of Denmark at all...


You missed the part where I said I knew many who would

When I worked for GW in two of the most touristy cities in the UK a constant complaint from Asian visitors (the ones who spoke English anyway!) was the lack of eastern armies

and I do play armies based on where I am from....

spikedog
04-05-2007, 02:20
You missed the part where I said I knew many who would

When I worked for GW in two of the most touristy cities in the UK a constant complaint from Asian visitors (the ones who spoke English anyway!) was the lack of eastern armies

and I do play armies based on where I am from....

This is purely a factual comment and not my particular opinions but I live in Japan, I have worked for GW here, know ALL of the GW store and management staff here by name (It is a small territory, we only have 3 stores) and speaking from what I know of them they would not be all that interested in a Japanese themed army.

It is for the same reason almost no one here plays Tau. They are inspired by Japanese Mecha anime and Japanese people have seen the film, read the book and played the game long before GW appeared on the scene. They are looking for new and original stuff, stuff that they haven't seen before. That is why Fantasy outsells 40K here by a factor of about 3:1. They have lots of futuristic looking wargames already but a fantasy mainly Europeon based one was new and fresh for them. So they are looking for things not already covered by their own wargames, and there is already a lot of fedual Japanese wargames out there, trust me.

So although many in the UK may like an Oriental themed army I don't think it would do very well over here for the above reasons.

I think GW should never do an Oriental themed army. I like that area being wrapped in mystery so it should be left for players to convert armies on what they think it should look like such as lillJonas and the one that was featured in this issue of the watchman. As soon as you make a book or models about an area it is no longer open for creative mystery, it becomes fact. (More or less, I know you could still convert stuff to your particular theme etc)

night2501
04-05-2007, 02:46
just do an ogre kingdom army based on it and you are done...
or convert an empire army, actually empire can make quite a good katay or nipon army

Angelwing
04-05-2007, 04:31
Gw did produce a selection of Nippon army models in the 80's. Quite a few ninja's, some martial artists and a rocket launcher carriage from memory..

Overt_Spy
04-05-2007, 05:04
VC doesn't remind you of Denmark? I was under the impression there's something rotten in that state...

Haha, Hamlet reference, awesome.

On Topic, I doubt there'd be a Nippon army anytime soon. However there are a plethora of historic minis that can be used to model Nippon.

I don't really think that a Nippon army would be that popular though. I think that Nippon, Araby, Cathay and Ind just won't appeal to people simply because they're too identifiable with their real world inspirations. Just my opinion, but if I was playing a Fantasy war game, i'd be much more interested by Chaos then Araby.

ZeroTwentythree
04-05-2007, 13:46
I like Japanese culture and all that, but... there seems to be no real place for them in the Warhammer world. It would just be wierd to see all these Eurpoean style fantasy armies, then one random Japanese fantasy army. It would feel way too out of place.


Because ancient Egypt circa 2000 BCE Tomb Kings, 15th century Aztec Lizards, 16th century German Empire (with a mix of Vikings from 1000 years earlier), monster-movie vampires, and Tolkein elves are so much more related?

I think it's a matter of perspective. We're used to seeing the other armies, so the they already feel more like they "belong" in what is still, honestly, a rather diverse collection.



Gw did produce a selection of Nippon army models in the 80's. Quite a few ninja's, some martial artists and a rocket launcher carriage from memory..


In 3rd edition, at least, Nippon was available as a mercenary or allied army lists (along with Lizardmen, Fimir, Zoats, Pygmies, and others) and they had a decent range of figures including the rocket launcher you mentioned and a temple dog. I know there were figures earlier than that, but I don't know about army lists.




I don't really think that a Nippon army would be that popular though. I think that Nippon, Araby, Cathay and Ind just won't appeal to people simply because they're too identifiable with their real world inspirations. Just my opinion, but if I was playing a Fantasy war game, i'd be much more interested by Chaos then Araby.


Empire and Bretonnia aren't real-world identifiable? Or Lizards and TK being fantasy armies strongly based on a historic theme?

Welf VIII.
04-05-2007, 15:06
big7samuraifan, if you plan to play a samurai army, why not try Warhammer Ancient Battles? To incude them into WFB use the rules for High Elves as already recommended here. For miniatures try these.

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/sam/SAM%2032.jpg
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/sam/SAM%2033.jpg
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/sam/SAM%2026.jpg
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/sam/SAM%2017.jpg
http://www.perry-miniatures.com/images/sam/SAM%2019.jpg

They were made by the Perry brothers in a somehow smaller in scale, but they are really great. I have a norman army from their range and I'm were satisfied with them.

The old GW samurai miniatures (sculpted by the Perry brothers, too) are still available from foundry miniatures.

Best wishes!

lilljonas
04-05-2007, 15:20
*shamelessly plugging my own Perry samurai army. Hey, Spikedog started it! ;)*

Just click the link in my signature, and you can both see comparisons between PM and GW, a selection of painted models that will hopefully continue to grow, my ideas on how to use them in WHFB (the HE list can go suck an old lemon or something, Empire all the way!), and also a few ideas for fitting terrain! Yay! And yes, WAB has an expansion that shold be released any day now with two different samurai armies, a ikko-ikki army and a korean too, if I'm not mistaken.

And the new Perry line is both ridiculously bigger (they have over 60 different blisters) and better done than the old foundry one. It's definitely the go-to place for a samurai army, if you're not on a tight budget.

ashc
04-05-2007, 15:28
I completely agree with liljonas on everything he stated above.

*runs off planning his Armies of Arcana Samurai force*

Trouble is, sometimes people really need to open their eyes up to the wargaming world beyond the confines of GW to really appreciate other ideas and model ranges.

Ash

mistformsquirrel
04-05-2007, 15:43
I seriously hope they never do it.

Araby would be good, Nippon and Cathay no! Fanboys only want them so they can live out their otaku feudal Japanese fantasies.

This particular comment bugs me.

Could I just ask uhh - Isn't that what /everything/ is when it comes to this kind of hobby?

I mean you could easily argue people only play Dwarves because they love the idea of being a dwarf. Or dark elf. Or high elf. Or wood elf. Or orc. Etc...

I'm not saying they need to introduce a whole new army list (I sincerely doubt they ever will) - but I certainly don't see anything /wrong/ with it; especially along the lines you're talking here. Everything after all is people living out one of a billion fantasies they have; that's... kinda the point.

baphomael
04-05-2007, 15:58
One thing - how would you make an eastern style army actually *fit* in the warhammer world without merely being 'historical army dumped in a fantasy world'. How would you go about making that concept have a uniquely 'warhammer' feel to it?

ashc
04-05-2007, 16:07
How would you go about making that concept have a uniquely 'warhammer' feel to it?

Monsters, magic, arcana, craziness, jazz, and interactions with the other races are good places to start.

Ash

ZeroTwentythree
04-05-2007, 16:08
The old GW samurai miniatures (sculpted by the Perry brothers, too) are still available from foundry miniatures.



If I understand correctly, that range is no longer available from Foundry.

I think at least some of the GW samurai were sculpted by Aly Morrison.

http://www.solegends.com/citboxes/dl1orientalheroes.htm


You can also count me among those recommending the Perry samurai figures!

Mazdug
04-05-2007, 17:02
I would like, rather then a whole new army, to see some dogs of war from the far east, and maybe some conversion sprues for existing armies. I could easily picture a sprue for each armies core choices that included some weapon and helmet variants, maybe some different logos to place on shields, a couple of bodies. You could run a summer campaign set in the far east where the armies of the old world got involved in some war between cathay and nippon, and while their maybe an odd new magic item was picked up, or a new dogs of war unit was recruited.

On a side note, I plan on doing an orcs of nippon unit, just for the hell of it, and because I think it would be a fun project. I'll post pictures once I am further along in my progress, right now I am just doing design sketches.

Welf VIII.
04-05-2007, 17:25
lilljonas: Great work, really like that!

ZeroTwentythree: Oh, you're right. Sorry, I don't visit their site very often anymore. But foundry are changing their offers every two weeks. I doubt, that they withdrew them for ever. You're right about the fact, these were sculpted by Aly Morrison, well the Perry brothers sculpted Foundry's Vikings, Normans, Medieval and Renaissance figures, all from GW 80s ranges, so I just thought, they did those as well.

My old foundry catalogue lists five blisters, all consisting of six miniatures:

SAM1: Samurai Lords
SAM2: Samurai
SAM3: Ashigaru Attacking
SAM4: Ashigaru
SAM5: Samurai Heroes

http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/SAM/1/index.asp

For monsters check (A)D&D's oriental adventures! Another source of inspiration are Ral Partha's old historical miniatures. Their samurai range was mixed up with mythological monsters:

Tengu (bird men)
Oni Demons
Kappa (river imp)
Shikome (maenads)
Dai-Bakemono (looks like an ogre)
Dia-Oni (giant demon)
Tatsu (dragon)
Mukade (centipede) own this miniature, its very long!

For araby, try Perry Miniatures!

ashc
04-05-2007, 17:28
Have you got any images of the Tatsu?

Im looking for an oriental dragon miniature.

Ash

ZeroTwentythree
04-05-2007, 17:32
I would like, rather then a whole new army, to see some dogs of war from the far east


I like that idea, either DoW or RoR. It gives the developers and players a chance to do something a little different and it would require less investment by GW than releasing a whole army, especially if they did metal rather than plastic. (I think it would be hard coming up with a universal plastic basis for conversion kits, but who knows...)

Since they've pushed the "borders" of the game further east with the ogres, and as others have already pointed out, the lizards are halfway across the world as well, I think the rare appearance of a far eastern regiment or two wouldn't be hard to justify.



On a side note, I plan on doing an orcs of nippon unit, just for the hell of it, and because I think it would be a fun project. I'll post pictures once I am further along in my progress, right now I am just doing design sketches.

Sounds interesting, I can't wait to see it.

ashc
04-05-2007, 17:34
There are so many one-off ideas gw could do with DOW in fantasy and i would love to see similar in 40k.

Ash

emperorpenguin
04-05-2007, 17:40
One thing - how would you make an eastern style army actually *fit* in the warhammer world without merely being 'historical army dumped in a fantasy world'. How would you go about making that concept have a uniquely 'warhammer' feel to it?

add in elements from the mythology of those areas

Some of the fluff suggests Cathay has stone statue warriors, monkey men and is ruled by Dragons!

as for those saying "can't be done" or "GW won't do another army", with all due respect many of you said that before Ogre Kingdoms were released.....

Hrogoff the Destructor
04-05-2007, 17:59
Haha! A terracotta army? That would be sweet!

If they could get a few oriental armies out there, than they wouldn't few so out of place if you saw them on actual tables.

I wonder if Gamesworkshop would ever consider making Nippon models, but have them follow the rules for one of the current army books? I know the chances are almost impossible, but I would think it's a good idea. It could help them appeal to other markets without having to make new army books. Naturally, the models would have to be assigned to teams and unit slots. Couldn't have everyone go around saying "Oh, what's that count as?"

Welf VIII.
04-05-2007, 18:21
Have you got any images of the Tatsu?

Im looking for an oriental dragon miniature.

Ash

I only have a tiny picture in a Ral Partha catalogue from 1994 and no scanne4r available, sorry. Wiki offrers some pictures http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_dragon and I think this old grenadier miniature (it's very big) now sold by mirliton might fit http://www.mirliton.it/images/catalog/DR017.jpg

gorenut
04-05-2007, 19:22
I don't see Nippon army being done anytime soon. I think they'd be better off saved as some DoW unit. GW could really expand in that area and really make a lot of sales since most armies can use DoW.

The army done by lilljonas is quite nice. That is pretty much your only alternative at the moment, making conversions and then using an existing army list.

I personally think that GW shouldn't have made their Fantasy realm too geologically similar to our's. I think thats where a lot of people make too many real life comparisons and don't think Nippon fits in Warhammer.

lilljonas
04-05-2007, 21:43
Yes, I think that one issue is that both China and Japan have, during long periods of their history, been isolationists. There are also periods of the opposite, but these images sticks quite easily to people's minds when they translate it into WH. On the other hand, HE and WE and to some extent Dwarfs too are quite isolationist factions, and it doesn't stop them from battling people on tabletops all over the world. Making coherent background for all the battles between Dwarfs and Lizardmen, Vampire Counts and Chaos Dwarfs and Empire and Tomb Kings can stretch the imagination just as far, but we still make it work. That's the key issue: we want it to work, so we make it work.

My own home-brewn solution is to look to history, and gain inspiration from it: the chinese treasure fleet (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sultan/explorers.html). Translate these big-ass ships that IRL went from Korea to Africa into the world of WHFB, and I suddenly have an excuse for my Nipponese to go all out and travel the world at the command of the Cathayan emperor. There, now I have made it work for me: an excuse for a relatively big force to pop up pretty much anywhere, and just like in IRL deal with diplomacy, trade or outright warfare depending on whom they meet. It's not a background that explains frequent contact between the East and any other place, but it's enough for me and my army.

It's fantasy. If you have some imagination, you can make it work.

ZeroTwentythree
04-05-2007, 22:18
Well, maybe part of the problem is expecting GW to justify why each and every army has to be able to fight each and every other army in the fluff. They already have to stretch our imaginations with some combos.

And honestly I don't even care. It's a fantasy game. I'm happy to play WE vs. TK or Lizards vs. Chaos Dwarves or whatever other strange combination may come up, regardless of whatever they've written stories about in the various books/campaigns/WD.

Pokpoko
04-05-2007, 23:33
there will be no nippon army. period. they'r all being eaten by the 'Nids as we speak. Cathayans are sitting under a great heap of warpstone that the Eshin skaven were hoarding for centuries,and so there are no humans left on that side of the Great Bastion, only disfigured mutants and demon-worshipping beastmen.

why? not because i have anything against the citizens of both real world counterpatrs,but because i serioulsy doubt that the Devs would manage to write it without falling into the trap of ****ty anime/otaku references and stereotypes. plus, Asiatic(or rther Japanese and Chinese) theme is booriing. dead boring, after a decade or so of hype.

Brother Siccarius
05-05-2007, 06:04
Actually this was mentioned in white dwarf about a month ago.

They said it pretty flat out, Oriental armies wont happen because in the warhammer world they DONT exist. So dont expect it anytime soon until you see some legitimate fluff sources. Although the Orges resemble mongolians

Now that doesnt stop you from making a themed empire army.

Considering that they're in the Warhammer Rulebook (oriental themed areas, not the army rules), I'd say they forgot something that they just put out if they said that they don't exist.

Cathay, page 202....sounds pretty much exactly like feudal Chine, but changed to fit the Warhammer setting.

Not to mention that the Skaven army itself has many commonalities with oriental armies.

the vicar
05-05-2007, 08:59
I think that people are looking at this the wrong way. If we, as a community, demand that GW release a crapload of miniatures as a proper line, it'll never get done. I mean, GW releases a new army what? Every five years or seven years or at some other insane rate like that? What GW should do, in my opinion, is release standalone sourcebooks/armylists, like they do with Warhammer Ancient Battles.

Look at it this way: it costs what, $100k to develop a new plastic sprue mold? And that's just one? The cost to get a new line going are prohibitive, to say the least. But that's not the case with a sourcebook. It'd only cost a couple of grand to develop, the first time. And then publish errata for the new editions of WFB, done. They'd recoup their losses in no time at all. And all the creative types out there could model/convert to their heart's content. And then maybe, maybe, at some point they'd take the chance on releasing a few models for a line, probably metal which doesn't cost as much in development as plastic, and go from there.

This all or nothing business model that GW has currently is for the birds.

gorenut
05-05-2007, 10:56
why? not because i have anything against the citizens of both real world counterpatrs,but because i serioulsy doubt that the Devs would manage to write it without falling into the trap of ****ty anime/otaku references and stereotypes. plus, Asiatic(or rther Japanese and Chinese) theme is booriing. dead boring, after a decade or so of hype.


Luckily that stated above is not factual and are solely based on your own opinions.

It's not like Norse mythology or some crazy brave knights have never been glorified. I still don't get bored of them and Warhammer is sprawling with both.

Pokpoko
05-05-2007, 16:47
why, yeah, they'v been glorified, but not to that level. half the fanbois are certain that "samurai were like,totally jedi, dude", and are absolutely certain that a katana would be able to cut through an Abrams, and a samurai would totally pwn any stupid knight. there is one army that glorifies knights. it's bretonia. you really want another one like that, but with "ZOMG teh c00l katanas!"?

gorenut
05-05-2007, 19:16
and like I said.. vikings with berserker strength, taking copious amounts of punishment and drinking off their wounds.

Hey, I like all of it. I'm not going to try to justify one being worse simply due to fan boys.

LuciusAR
06-05-2007, 22:39
Has anyone actually ever seen/read any real evidence that the occupants of Cathay/Nippon in any way shape or form resemble the armies of ancient China/Japan? Or is it all fanboy speculation based on the Fact that the map of the warhammer world is loosely based on the real world and that Cathay/Nippon are words for Japan/China? I don't think GW have ever released any real indication what of the occupants and cultures of the eastern realms resemble so why are there so many assumptions that they would resemble the armies of ancient Asia? I'd actually love it if GW totally ignored that and came up with an original human realm that isn't based on an historical setting!

lilljonas
06-05-2007, 22:56
LuciusAR:

Yes, the lack of miniatures and rules for Cathay and Nippon pretty much started in the 4th ed. The Nipponese minis from 3rd ed were ninjas and samurais. The Cathayans that are mentioned in fluff have Chinese names. The other factions coming from the east (Ogre Kingdoms, Hobgoblins) have asian looks. If I'm not incorrect, there's references to Cathayan Junks in the fluff where they are travelling at sea. There's plenty of small fragments of evidence, all pointing towards a stereotypical Oriental Fantasy setting. GW would have to make a complete 180 to make it something else. If you haven't read evidence of this, it just means that you haven't read that many army books, old rulebooks/WFRPG books, White Dwarfs or Citadel Journals.

ashc
06-05-2007, 23:09
just to back up liljonas point, look at the current races of the game and their stereotyped 'homelands'

teutonic germanic empire, french bretonnians, egyptian tomb kings, south american lizardmen, italian tileans, estalian spaniards, the scandinavian chaos northmen, the arabian erm, arabyans, and the mongol ogres... if the eastern armies are not historically eastern-inspired i would be shocked.

Ash

Warnhammer
06-05-2007, 23:13
Noone seems to mention that in the BRB there on pg 202 there is a listing for an Army of Cathay, and a Dragon army as well as the everpresent Chaos Dwarves. I believe they are at least thinking of these for the newest entry for a book in the Warhammer world???

Cycorax
06-05-2007, 23:22
I'm surprised they haven't put Araby in already to be honest, i mean they are very close to the rest of the current factions and alot closer than say the Dark Elves or the Lizardmen.

Has Araby played any part in the shaping of the old world? What i mean is have they ever had anything to do directly with any of the other factions? Apart from the crusades.

lilljonas
06-05-2007, 23:32
Has Araby played any part in the shaping of the old world? What i mean is have they ever had anything to do directly with any of the other factions? Apart from the crusades.

Well, it's pretty much the crusades (linking them to Empire and Bretonnia) and the obvious problems following being neighbours with Tomb Kings, as far as I know. But there's O&G in the region, and southlands Beastmen are mentioned I guess, and a bunch of other factions (DE, HE, LM) can turn up pretty much everywhere, so they sure are easier to fit into WHFB than both Cathay and Nippon.

MaxTheGaijin
07-05-2007, 00:18
why, yeah, they'v been glorified, but not to that level. half the fanbois are certain that "samurai were like,totally jedi, dude", and are absolutely certain that a katana would be able to cut through an Abrams, and a samurai would totally pwn any stupid knight. there is one army that glorifies knights. it's bretonia. you really want another one like that, but with "ZOMG teh c00l katanas!"?

Where do these ppl get their fact's that a Samuria would defeat a knight?

That my friend is Haga.

Samuria never fought anyone else except themselves and never got a chance to find out and test themselves against anyone else in the world.

Europeans, The Chinese, Africa and The Middle East all took many hundreds of years fighting and warring with ppl who all fought different and established new ways of fighting.

If anything...A Samuria would get owned by any of those 4. Not to mention their armour was made out of Bamboo and their swords were sharp but not full tang..you know what happens to a Sword when it hits metal and is not full tang? Take a wild guess.

John Clemens who heads up Arma (A major group that studies European sword fighting/ Like the Knights fought) went to a Eastern Sword fighting contest..And wanted to enter. Everyone said no....Except one judge who was a major fan or Western Fencing and said yes...John Clemens entered with Western Sword fighting and beat everyone...Totally dominating over Kenjutsu..The problem with Kenjutsu is that there is not enough Guards and it only focuses on moving forward...Every other type of sword fighting revolves around getting around your opponent.

The bottom line is I study Western Sword and even some of their strikes start to look like Kenjutsu. Why?

There are only so many ways you can swing a sword at someone to kill them.

But as for experiance...Knights and western fighters saw a hell of alot more burtal wars and battles then the Samurai ever did but on that note...It comes down to experiance..And who is faster and can avoid making the first mistake. Knights could move in Chainmail just as easy as a samurai could move around in bamboo armour..Western Swords were not heavy..on average a Long sword or hand and a half weighted around 2 and a half or 3 pounds.

Sword fighting is not like the movies..There is no mass clanging of weapons and a bunch of swinging around..Its actually boring to watch..It's two guys staring at each other hoping the other guy makes the first mistake.

One guy swings the other hopefully dodges and cuts..Thats it...No more no less.


Sorry if I spelled some stuff or alot of stuff wrong guys..My finger on my right hand is broken and the spell check is not working on my comp

MaxTheGaijin
07-05-2007, 00:26
Bleh and Edit is not working on my comp either!!!!

While Samurai are pimp..They are not the pimpest!

On a warhammer fantasy note..Make what ever army you feel like.

lilljonas
07-05-2007, 00:41
Samuria never fought anyone else except themselves and never got a chance to find out and test themselves against anyone else in the world.


Not true. They fought Mongols and Koreans. They lost tactically to mongolians but won strategically, and won tactically against Koreans but lost strategically. But I agree with the gist of it: Japanese medieval warfare was always an internal affair, and evolved that way.


If anything...A Samuria would get owned by any of those 4. Not to mention their armour was made out of Bamboo and their swords were sharp but not full tang..you know what happens to a Sword when it hits metal and is not full tang? Take a wild guess.


Yes, a big problem for the Japanese forces vs both Mongols and Koreans were the fact that their leather armours broke the "super-duper best swords ev4r!", the katana. Leather armour.


The problem with Kenjutsu is that there is not enough Guards and it only focuses on moving forward...Every other type of sword fighting revolves around getting around your opponent.


What? You mean that in fencing, where they have a 1.5-2 meter wide area to move on, getting around your opponent is the main goal? Never noticed that. Kenjutsu and Kendo is made to emulate a heavily armoured person on a battlefield where your only choice is to go forward or get tangled up in the chaos on a battlefield. A single killing blow and then following up on the next opponent is the aim. Everything that doesn't kill (too weak or badly angled to penetrate armour) is disregarded. Being prepared to move on to the next opponent is everything. It evolved from the armour and weapons available, and works for the armour and weapons available. Mix a person practicing with a zweihander according to old medieval instruction books and a guy with a modern style fencer with a foil and you get hosed up results too. Just saying.

But I agree on the "Knights were not clumsy brutes who walked forward like Windmills with 10kg swords" and the "samurai were not jumping around with superpowers and swords that cut through rocks".

EDIT: sorry for being lured OT again. This is material for Random Musing, not Fantasy General Discussion. I'll stop posting history/sport rants here.

MaxTheGaijin
07-05-2007, 01:03
I was refering to fencing as in Sword fighting as it is refered all over the word by the term. Not Sport Fencing for the Olympics. That is not for getting around your enemy while Saber and Mein Gauch (Spelling) is for getting around your enemy and Rapier (Not Olympics) also focuses on locking up your enemy and getting around him to cut him in the kidneys ( lol ) And they fought the mongols? I thought a Storm killed them all before they landed..and your right..About the topic..You want to carry it on over PM or somewhere else?

lilljonas
07-05-2007, 02:20
Check your PMs.:)

gorenut
07-05-2007, 02:29
AT the end of the day.. this is fantasy and we play it for the glorified versions of ancient warriors. Thats what makes it fun. Yes, fanboys make things ridiculous at times, but the anti-fanboys also kill all of the fun. No one forces you to play as a certain army, so I don't see where all the negative viewpoints are coming from. Bottom line is, more diversity, the better.

lilljonas
07-05-2007, 03:03
Yes, and after all any theme and army in WHFB and 40K can be ridiculed in pretty much the same way, as long as you want to. They are all stereotypes in their own ways, and can be bullied based on that just like real people. And just like with real people, bullying is not that cool at all.

big7samuraifan
07-05-2007, 04:25
Boy, what did I get started? :confused:

LuciusAR
07-05-2007, 10:31
LuciusAR:

Yes, the lack of miniatures and rules for Cathay and Nippon pretty much started in the 4th ed. The Nipponese minis from 3rd ed were ninjas and samurais. The Cathayans that are mentioned in fluff have Chinese names. The other factions coming from the east (Ogre Kingdoms, Hobgoblins) have asian looks. If I'm not incorrect, there's references to Cathayan Junks in the fluff where they are travelling at sea. There's plenty of small fragments of evidence, all pointing towards a stereotypical Oriental Fantasy setting. GW would have to make a complete 180 to make it something else. If you haven't read evidence of this, it just means that you haven't read that many army books, old rulebooks/WFRPG books, White Dwarfs or Citadel Journals.

Thanks for that, will try and do some research into some of the older rulebooks!

lilljonas
07-05-2007, 12:12
The Stuff of Legends page is a good place to start looking at the miniatures, for example the Oriental Heroes pack http://www.solegends.com/citjour86a/cj86ap28ohsamurai-02.htm by Aly Morrison.

Sanjuro
07-05-2007, 12:52
Well, it's pretty much the crusades

As a side note, it's a bit strange, them calling them crusades - you know, what with them not having the sign of the cross as a holy symbol and all. :)

lilljonas
07-05-2007, 12:58
As a side note, it's a bit strange, them calling them crusades - you know, what with them not having the sign of the cross as a holy symbol and all. :)

So what, we shall call them grailsades? Or perhaps the Araby Cup? Yeah, that could work. :)

Welf VIII.
07-05-2007, 14:08
You might call it a "cup run" then.:D