PDA

View Full Version : Rhinos or Chimeras



Cirenivel
05-05-2007, 16:42
So, this little question suddenly popped up in my head one day...

If Space Marines is supposed to be the best equiped army in the empire, then why does they drive around in those ****ty Rhinos and not the good ol' Chimeras? I mean, it's like driving an old, rusty Wolkswagen instead of a new, fancy Porsche. It just don't make sense that the Guard should have better equipment than the mighty astartes.

Does anybody know any reasons for this?

Cirenivel

P.S I doesn't mean it like "space marines are to bad, time to steal something from another army"... It just doesn't seem logical

Firstandonly14
05-05-2007, 16:50
Well for starters, rhino's have better side armor. So basically, do you want the fancy porsche made outa fiber glass that hits a speed bump and explodes in a nice fire ball, or do you want the volvo that gets you there safetly? :p

Generally speaking I like my chimera's better *protects them from SM players*

Ko Improbable
05-05-2007, 17:00
Two different vehicles, two different roles.

A Rhino's purpose is to deliver Space Marines right to the enemy. It's primary source of protection is roaring forward at full tilt so that it's exposed to incoming fire for less time.

A Chimera's purpose is to get Guardsmen to the battlefield, but not necessarily right on top of the enemy. It then switches to being a source of fire support. Since it's supposed to stick around and both throw and take some firepower, it's a little better armoured in the front.

IMO, the Razorback should have a little better armour on the front so that it can provide a similar service to the Marines as the Chimera does to the Guard.

Blandman
05-05-2007, 17:14
Imperial Guard armour is better than Space Marine armour. But of course I'd say that, because I'm biased.

Quin 242
05-05-2007, 17:16
As stated, Rhinos are delivery only vehicles. A rhino's purpose is to get Marines into rapidfire and assault ranges :)
Chimeras are designed to provide cover fire as they deliver fragile troops.

stickerboy
05-05-2007, 18:11
Another factor to consider: Space Marine chapters are mostly self-reliant when it comes to weapons, ammunition and vehicle production and repair. It would be much more efficient for the Techmarines to concentrate their knowledge base and spare parts inventory on Rhinos and Rhino-based armored vehicles than to branch out and include Chimeras to maintain.

Onisuzume
05-05-2007, 18:22
Afaik; the techmarines don't know how to produce anything other than rhino, land raider, chassises. (and ofcourse bikes and land speeders, but those ain't tanks)

It's also one of the reason why almost all SM tanks use the same base chassis.

etham
05-05-2007, 18:36
Afaik; the techmarines don't know how to produce anything other than rhino, land raider, chassises. (and ofcourse bikes and land speeders, but those ain't tanks)

It's also one of the reason why almost all SM tanks use the same base chassis.


Yeah, it doesn't have anything to do with GW not wanting to come up with another tank for them. ;)

Onisuzume
05-05-2007, 19:01
They've got enough variants though.
And the rumours section has something about FW thinking of making a rhino-skimmer-thingy.

Lion El Jason
05-05-2007, 19:14
Its a philosophy thing: Rhinos are there to get marines into position because marines win because of the marines...

Chimeras are fighting vehicles, the guard need all that stuff because they aren't marines! They dont get there and unleash the genetically engineered super warriors... they use hull mounted lasguns and poke weapons out of the top hatch.

ancient_conflict
05-05-2007, 19:42
two differant forces two very different roles

SM - elite hit and run. hit hard, fast and pricisely.

Guard - quantity over quality and they are not close combat orientated so there vehicals need a bit of heavier support to transport them.

SM - very bulky meant to be 8' tall you dont want a transport the size of a heavy tank as it just screams i am a target shoot me.

Guard - ickle in comparison so they have more room for ammo and support systems and extra weaponry

SM - if you have one chassie then you can get a load of vehicals dilivered and then the techies modify them to suit the roles required i.e. anti-tank, anti infantry, mobile support and transport (Pred. An., Pred Dest., Razor, rhino respectivly)

Guard - the russ hull is too high sided to be a viable transport and keep the troops safe plus the armour would be a waste.

also i dont think the Inquisition would be happy with a chapter getting there hands on them as it would put additional risk in the chapter

Slaaneshi Slave
05-05-2007, 19:55
Rhinos are also much more reliable, hence the rules for imobalisation.

superknijn
05-05-2007, 20:31
Plus, since Marines themselves are more resistant to destruction, they don't really need to have heavily armoured transport vehicles; they tendto survive anyway. And, if they really need a heavy transport (not just one with extra guns on it, like the Razorback), they can use the best heavy transport there is : the Land Raider.

Gekistan
05-05-2007, 20:59
Another point on the delivery function of the rhino versus the shooter thing with the chimera...

You want to get out of a chimera? ok fine, only one exit, in the back. Wanna get out of the rhino? pick a door, any of three. I think those extra hatch options shouldn't be underestimated. It seem futile but a friend of mine once developped this tactic of swamping a vehicle's exit. Now I like mine better with more exits.

OH and of course, since its space marines who usually shoot out of a rhino there is that big hatch on top that allows you to fire any kind of weapon out of it, even on the move:P

Btw, I play black templars so rhino's aren't that usefull to me. My other army in the making is radical deamonhunters and if I do get to it one day I will probably use a 50-50 mix of rhino's and chimera's for the ist's exactly because of the difference between the two. Inquisition gets best of both worlds I guess...

ChaosTicket
05-05-2007, 21:42
The Astartes vehicles ae based on motion rather than firepower. Most astartes vehicles can move and/or fire, like predators, and Land Raiders. Imperial Guard likely have to stay back and fire, effectively making them immobile to use their main gun with any accuracy.

The Rhino is quite bad for a transport, but on that same note it's also quite mobile. With extra armor, it's quite likely to reach the enemy.

Rhinos are the 2nd cheapest transport in the game, and at the same time the 2nd worst, beating the Ork Truckk. The more they make transports for other races, the worse it appears. Devilfish, Wave Serpents, Chimeras, all are much better in movement, shooting, etc. But at the same time they each cost 100+points, making them harder to use.

But think about this. When you have 100 points of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Guardsmen, that each are weak in several aspects you want a good transport to protect/attack with them. Space Marines, that are top notch in all respects cost more like 200points, so a weaker/cheaper transport would be better.

Just remember that while other races have gunwagons for mobile transport, Space Marines use their transports solely for faster transport to different battlefields. In Battle they use their drop pods.

Sparda
05-05-2007, 21:56
And remember that the Rhino is a lot easier to repair then a Chimera, so that may br a reason that the Rhino is used by the Space marines, as they may be fighting hundreds of miles away from a techmarine while guard may only be about a mile from one, at he most.

ChaosTicket
06-05-2007, 06:02
Well since Techmarines accompany the different Companies, that's kinda pointless.

Really Marine tanks are made worse so people won't call foul for the super soldiers having decent tanks.

Chimeras are better than Rhinos, Basilisks are better than Whirlwinds, Leman Russ are better than Predators. It's why i never get marine vehicles.

bdo
06-05-2007, 06:37
*cough* better tanks.. i guess you already know that.. but it´s not that good to pack all in one category, as for example the anti tank power of a pred annihilator with lascan side sponsons is sure hard to come by with a russ...

and the reasons why SM dont have chimeras were already mentioned :D

ChaosTicket
06-05-2007, 06:48
Yeah, but a Predator annihilator can't handle the range, heavy infantry, infantry, or armor that a Leman Russ can.

Chimeras have gunports not lasguns. Space marines can use their bolters from them.

Vaktathi
06-05-2007, 07:50
Yeah, but a Predator annihilator can't handle the range, heavy infantry, infantry, or armor that a Leman Russ can.

Chimeras have gunports not lasguns. Space marines can use their bolters from them.

no, Chimera's have built in Lasguns, no firing ports. You can fire a weapon from the top hatch but it then counts as open topped, this is the only way Marines inside a Chimera (don't know how you'd manage that though...) could fire bolters, and only one model can fire a weapon out the top hatch.

EDIT: Also, Wartrukks, while not great vehicles, are great at getting boyz to where they need to be rather quickly and being open topped they can assault out of it, even if it makes the vehicles more fragile.

Onisuzume
06-05-2007, 10:10
Chimeras have gunports not lasguns. Space marines can use their bolters from them.
I think you're confused with the Repressor.
SOB can fire their bolters from the gunports there. (and by raw, only bolters so no flamers, meltaguns, combi-bolters, etc.)

As for the ork trukks beeing worse than rhinos; I can agree with this, except when it comes to the armaments. (big shootas and rokkit launchers beat storm bolters)

ehlijen
06-05-2007, 11:38
Marines aren't meant to operate in any battle zone for extended periods of time. They move in, hit hard and pack up to move to the next target. For this, lighter and less bulky vehicles are preferrably. In 2nd ed, the Rhino range of vehicles was also collectively faster than any guard vehicle.

The IG guard on the other hand, is often called upon to conduct long term sieges, campaigns and defenses. They use slower and bigger transport vessels,so they can afford to employ heavier vehilces, and often require them for their missions.

Sekhmet
06-05-2007, 11:59
no, Chimera's have built in Lasguns, no firing ports. You can fire a weapon from the top hatch but it then counts as open topped, this is the only way Marines inside a Chimera (don't know how you'd manage that though...) could fire bolters, and only one model can fire a weapon out the top hatch.


Armored company chimeras are not dedicated transports, so you could take an allied grey knight squad and stick them in there.

Sir_Turalyon
06-05-2007, 12:13
If Space Marines is supposed to be the best equiped army in the empire,


Wrong assumption. Space Marines are shock troops of the Imperium; their equipment is restricted to suit that role.

Besides, rhino is hi-tech vechicle, with computers, power armour interfaces and whatever else. Chimera is muchg more primitive and lecc comfortable.

Vaktathi
06-05-2007, 12:18
Armored company chimeras are not dedicated transports, so you could take an allied grey knight squad and stick them in there.

I didn't think you could take allies with an Armored Company, but that notwithstanding I don't see why you would do that, although if its possible I guess you could if you really wanted to.

ChaosTicket
06-05-2007, 17:24
I don't think you can do that. Grey Knights can't use Marine Land Raiders, so why would they be able to use Chimeras?

tau4ever
06-05-2007, 18:20
As mentioned before, space marines use rhinos because they are easyer to repair. If you are on an enemy world, do you want to be stuck with a transport that doesn't move?

ChaosTicket
06-05-2007, 23:10
All common imperial vehicles are made from everything including wood, plastic, and metal. A famous Howling griffons Land Raider was made out of hardwood but Kicked butt, nonetheless.

The only advantage rhinos have over Chimeras is that they have 1higher armor on the side and can repair immobilisation(by the driver) on a 6.

Bloodknight
06-05-2007, 23:23
That and they´re half the cost, the DA Rhino even less. More like 1/3.

logosloki
07-05-2007, 00:37
Rhinos are a cheap spam transport to get your squads to the front lines. Chimeras are a way of fitting more shooty goodness into a guard army.

though chimeras can have two people shoot out of the top and they wouldn't count as open topped if marines fired out of them. there is a rule covering that pg64 in the rulebook.

alex03
07-05-2007, 02:29
Its not represented in current 4th edition, but I believe the rhino is faster than the chimera. In final liberation the chimera moved 16 and the rhino 20, for a comperison. I don't remember the speeds of the vehicals from 2nd edtion, but I believe each vehical had a different speed then, as well. So yeah, the space marines want a vehical that can get them to where they want to go faster.

As a side note, Im suprised the space marines don't just use ork trucks. It does everything a rhino can do but better. It is a fast vehical, and open toped so the marines could assault from it when it moves 12. It may be a little more prone to taking damage, but then rhino's arn't known for being resiliant (on the tabletop) either. Just slap a smoke launcher on it and your good to go. Time to loot FROM the orks!

ChaosTicket
07-05-2007, 02:37
Will rhinos ever be a decent transport?

alex03
07-05-2007, 02:50
Maybe the rhino shoud get a "fleet of track" rule, where it gets an extra d6 inches of movement evey time it moves at full speed?

Gutlord Grom
07-05-2007, 04:19
I wouldn't mind Chimeras in Marine armies, but Rhinos will work...for now.

Maybe a slight weapon change, would sort it out.

mistahsmoovelegs
07-05-2007, 04:35
can blood angels still use the super-charged engines rules for their rhinos?

but on topic: i preferred rhinos when i played space marines because they had three access points instead of one for the chimera. Rhinos are cheaper as well, right?

ChaosTicket
07-05-2007, 05:58
well since the Blood angels codex no longer works, you'll just have to use the basic Space Marines list. Overcharged engines were never good to begin with. They cost you 15points and gave a small movement boost, but could immobilise your rhino or razorback.

If all went well with Black rage and all you could move 24" per turn but you're just as likely to not move at all.

Rhinos are cheaper, but easily taken down before/during transportation. Considering that almost all transports have armor 12 and maybe 12 on side makes them better.

Let's see Ork truck cost 35points minimum for 12" average move, open topped for easy delivery and a rokkit launcha.

Devilfish is 80points minimum for average 12" movement with 2 gun drones and a burst cannon, and can cause tank shock with 12 armor on front and side and skimmer.

Wave Serpent costs 100 minimum for average 12" movement with twin linked shuriken cannon and twin linked shuriken catapult, 12 armor on sides and front, and energy field to protect against frontal AT weapons.

the Rhino has no good armaments, no good speed, no good armor, and no good upgrades available. It's Offically THE WORST TRANSPORT in the Game, with little potential, little damage, and little survivability.

mistahsmoovelegs
07-05-2007, 06:45
the Rhino has no good armaments, no good speed, no good armor, and no good upgrades available. It's Offically THE WORST TRANSPORT in the Game, with little potential, little damage, and little survivability.

Duly noted ChaosTicket, but the Rhino IS crewed by space marines. you can bet your boots that what the rhino lacks is made up by the sheer power of the rest of the army.

Hellllllllooooo! space marines?

fattdex
07-05-2007, 09:02
I believe that i read ion the blood angel rumors about the forthcoming white dwarf printed codex, that supercharged engines are back.

ChaosTicket
07-05-2007, 09:17
haha so Rhinos(and Razorbacks)are still pointless for Space Marines.

I guess they always will be useless, unless they just make them better. It' annoying that ever other race has better vehicles than Space Marines, but Marines have the best regular units..

mistahsmoovelegs
07-05-2007, 09:22
haha so Rhinos(and Razorbacks)are still pointless for Space Marines.

I guess they always will be useless, unless they just make them better. It' annoying that ever other race has better vehicles than Space Marines, but Marines have the best regular units..

everybody needs a weakness i suppose. i mean, space marines are monst likely to survive a wrecked vehicle, so who cares if theyre a tad rickety? so they dont have guns? space marines can be tweaked with doctrines to fire a ton of shots when they disembark. the rhino is near and dear to players because they have been around forever. and theyre only 50 pts.

ChaosTicket
07-05-2007, 09:24
If I gave Imperial Guard a 3+ save for 2 points they would survive Chimera crashes just as well as Marines, but they would be cheaper and less likely to crash.

mistahsmoovelegs
07-05-2007, 09:28
If I gave Imperial Guard a 3+ save for 2 points they would survive Chimera crashes just as well as Marines, but they would be cheaper and less likely to crash.

how is a chimera less likely to crash? and the last time i checked a chimera was 70 pts naked. you can give gaurd all the armor you want, but at the end of the day, theyre still gaurd. so whats your point?

you cant judge a particular unit or army choice without considering the entire army. Because of this simple fact, comparing rhinos and chimeras is like comparing apples and oranges. they're totally different. sure, chimeras look better on paper, but when you factor in a lower BS and less skilled troops with poor leadership, things start to balance out.

Ronin_eX
07-05-2007, 10:12
Hmm, I love them now that they are reduced in price. The thing about them is that you need to use them much as an APC (or even an IFV) is used in modern combat. You don't roll straight up to the enemy in it, once you are engaged being trapped in a tin can is always a liability.

Instead move it up on the first turn and then hop the marines out of it and get them behind it, then pop smoke so that any fire concetrated on it will not result in an explosion and in the next turn continue to use it as mobile cover for the marines while they make the rest of their (rather short now) trip to the objective where the can pile into cover and hold it like a good stalwart defender of the imperium. Sure it only gives you one turn of 12" movement but that is usually worth it since it puts most squads within spitting range of the objective. For the cost of a little more than two marines this is worth it as you now have:

1) A good piece of cover that can save more expensive models from death (I used mine to block LOS on a Deathwing squad while they flanked a ruined building to strike at the broadsides inside).
2) A quick way of getting a tactical squad on top of an objective quicker than if they had slogged it while giving them protection on the first (or even second) turn.

The rhino may be a liability with marines in it, but it is a godsend when they're behind it. ;)

Bunnahabhain
07-05-2007, 10:32
Second that. They're cover, that can tank shock people, and if the dark angles codex is any guide, costs next to nothing. Anybody else mind risking a 35pt, non-scoring unit to shift the enemy squad off the objective?

My Guardsmen chimeras cost 85pts as realistic minimum (with 2 weapons, and no options) They're just too expensive, and useful to throw about the battlefield like you can with an empty rhino.

Havock
07-05-2007, 12:06
Yes, my chimeras tend to be expensive too.
(autocannon, HB, heavy stubber, EA, smokes and Searchlight), but I use them more as light tanks that can transport troops than tansports that coincidentally have some shootyness :p

Chaos and Evil
07-05-2007, 15:10
A Rhino is less armoured because it needs to be airdropped via Thunderhawk, thus it needs to be lighter and airmobile.

Flame Boy
07-05-2007, 20:36
A Rhino is less armoured because it needs to be airdropped via Thunderhawk, thus it needs to be lighter and airmobile.

I was just about to propose something similar. Imperial Guard use massive dropships that unload tank companies onto a planet's surface. Space Marines deploy by dropship, Thunderhawk Transports (infantry and vehicle transport variants) as well as the Marine Dropship that carries (I think) 6 rhino-chassis vehicles into combat zones, hopefully not under fire, but that's not always possible. You do not want marines in massive heavy IFV's in large numbers. Probably another reason why logistically marines do not field large numbers of Land Raiders anymore. They don't use the huge dropships they could have used in the Great Crusades, so Land Raiders are probably harder to deploy en masse.

Saying that, the dedicated Thunderhawk vehicle transport can carry Land Raiders, but I would imagine it would be a lot harder to avoid incoming fire and land safely with such a massive cargo. I can see advantages to a lightweight, reliable crate for a transport rather than a sturdier IFV.

Cirenivel
07-05-2007, 20:45
A Rhino is less armoured because it needs to be airdropped via Thunderhawk, thus it needs to be lighter and airmobile.

But it hasn't lighter armour, it just has weaker front armour, while the side armour is heavier...

Cirenivel

Wolflord Havoc
07-05-2007, 20:57
As already mentioned the Rhino is designed to be deployed from Space via Thunder Hawk Transporters and other craft.

The Imperial Guard on the other hand would be using much larger bulk landers.

The Marine Vehicles can be redeployed very easily from battle site to battle site but once on the ground the Chimeras and Leman Russ would have to fight in place with no chance of strategic redeployment.

Bloodknight
07-05-2007, 21:13
Yep. The Rhino has in effect more armour than the Chimera: 43 points against 42 points.

Cirenivel
07-05-2007, 21:34
Yep. The Rhino has in effect more armour than the Chimera: 43 points against 42 points.

Isn't it 42 42?

Cirenivel

Templar Ben
07-05-2007, 22:00
No Front Side Side Back
Chimera is +1 Front
Rhino is +1 Side
Side is doubled therefore 1 point more.

mistahsmoovelegs
07-05-2007, 22:03
in my experience, rhinos lasted alot longer than chimeras in the games that ive played. also, dont the rhinos have that special rule where they can repair themselves? maybe i was playing a filthy cheater.

Gammarah
07-05-2007, 22:32
Yep, repair on a six instead of shooting.

mistahsmoovelegs
07-05-2007, 22:34
Yep, repair on a six instead of shooting.

man thats awesome! the rhino is like the little APC that could!

ChaosTicket
08-05-2007, 04:24
Could get destroyed in one hit while carrying a squad you mean. Transports are supposed to be faster, better armed, and tougher than units of soldiers. Fast can do this, armor 12+ can do this, several heavy weapons can do this. The rhino is not fast, it's not tough, it's not well armed.

Yeah it's cheap, but 35 points for something that is easier to destroy than what it carries, and sometimes kills or even immobilises the unit it carries isn't good.

Tougher/faster transports are better. Paying 100 points for a Wave Serpent is fine when it's the fastest and toughest dedicated transport there is. It can even have anti tank weapons. Can a Rhino do that? Just ONE hunter missle.

Vaktathi
08-05-2007, 04:50
Could get destroyed in one hit while carrying a squad you mean. Transports are supposed to be faster, better armed, and tougher than units of soldiers. Fast can do this, armor 12+ can do this, several heavy weapons can do this. The rhino is not fast, it's not tough, it's not well armed.

Yeah it's cheap, but 35 points for something that is easier to destroy than what it carries, and sometimes kills or even immobilises the unit it carries isn't good.

Tougher/faster transports are better. Paying 100 points for a Wave Serpent is fine when it's the fastest and toughest dedicated transport there is. It can even have anti tank weapons. Can a Rhino do that? Just ONE hunter missle.

Nobody is saying that a Rhino is on par with a wave serpent. They are saying that it is an APC not an IFV, its purpose is to get Marines into the fight faster than they would on foot without having to worry about the majority of infantry fire, not provide protection from heavy weapons and/or fire support. Marines have great infantry and purpose built tanks, their tanks do one thing generally such as Tank Hunting (predator annihilator) or faster insertion (Rhino), they generally dont have as much protection as others vehicles (land raider notwithstanding) and/or abilties because the are meant to supplement the infantry, whereas in the case of the Guard or Eldar their tanks are much more vital.

mistahsmoovelegs
08-05-2007, 05:41
Could get destroyed in one hit while carrying a squad you mean. Transports are supposed to be faster, better armed, and tougher than units of soldiers. Fast can do this, armor 12+ can do this, several heavy weapons can do this. The rhino is not fast, it's not tough, it's not well armed.

Yeah it's cheap, but 35 points for something that is easier to destroy than what it carries, and sometimes kills or even immobilises the unit it carries isn't good.

Tougher/faster transports are better. Paying 100 points for a Wave Serpent is fine when it's the fastest and toughest dedicated transport there is. It can even have anti tank weapons. Can a Rhino do that? Just ONE hunter missle.

dude, they're space marines.

ChaosTicket
08-05-2007, 06:44
dude, they're space marines.

Switch Imperial Guard chimeras and space marines rhinos. Having 10 Guardsmen units with 35-50point transports is fine when you take mechanised company.

It's not worth taking rhinos. Moving 6" average is not good. First thing is to dump the transports' squad off to protect it's rear while it unloads shot after shot near cover.

Space marines have the greatest maximum in their units, but weakest in vehicles. ISN"T HIGH COST AN ACCEPTABLE DRAWBACK?

I find no point in using Marine vehicles at all.

Vaktathi
08-05-2007, 07:46
Switch Imperial Guard chimeras and space marines rhinos. Having 10 Guardsmen units with 35-50point transports is fine when you take mechanised company.

It's not worth taking rhinos. Moving 6" average is not good. First thing is to dump the transports' squad off to protect it's rear while it unloads shot after shot near cover.

Space marines have the greatest maximum in their units, but weakest in vehicles. ISN"T HIGH COST AN ACCEPTABLE DRAWBACK?

I find no point in using Marine vehicles at all.

why would you only use a rhino to move 6"? its not like you really need to be firing with it, why not be using its full movement allotment of 12" every turn?

Also, while you may not like Rhino's, many other marine vehicles such as Predators, Land Speeders and Dreadnoughts are awesome and I have yet to see a marine army without at least one of those, usually two.

^DrAgOn^
08-05-2007, 09:27
To be fair marines DO have landraiders which are vastly superior transports, although they cost accordingly too...

azimaith
08-05-2007, 12:17
Rhinos are meant to dump their troops out and then get the hell to somewhere less obtrusive and ping away with their storm bolter.

Chimeras are an IFV, a squad that has a chimera is going to stay with it the rest of the game most likely. The rhino on the other hand is supposed to go out and do other things.

Your basically paying some 30 points for a one turn use 12" move and a storm bolter.

But don't let that fool you, because a 12" move can win you the game by getting you that much closer to the objective.

Once marines are entrenched its damned near impossible to get them the hell out.

People are too concerned with how little the rhino can kill compared to how many points it can deliver to an objective.

Just by there very design the intent is obvious. Rhinos have spaced out armor on different fronts. This means they are meant for low volume fire from any direction (so you can dump marines out) and then to avoid getting shot if at all possible.

Chimeras have very high front armor comparatively and low side and rear armor, thus they are meant to be static defensive positions with optimal armor facing the enemy and the flanks protected by infantry men.

Rhinos are not there to deliver uber assaulty death to your enemy. Thats not their job. Its to transport you a short distance a critical turn earlier than you would have to get well entrenched before the enemy.

The rhinos hardly a bad transport, its just a crappy assault boat, because thats not what its made for. An ork trukk is an assault boat, its only goal is to deliver orks into a close combat so they can start beating enemies up for the opponent can react. If you want to do that go get an assault or bike squad.

As for people who call the ork trukk a crappy transport. You are *mad*. Its an amazing transport. For 2 points it can repair immobilized results *at the start of the ork turn before movement* to get moving, its fast, its open topped, and its cheap.

Stop trying to make the rhino an assault boat, its not.

ChaosTicket
08-05-2007, 13:52
who ever said the Truck was crappy? It's only 35 points, it's fast, and open topped so is perfect for orks. Too bad the only unit that can use it are Truck Boyz and Nobz, and nobz are likely the worst unit in the game by costs-effectiveness.

azimaith
08-05-2007, 13:54
Nobs aren't the worst unit in the game by cost effectiveness either. Throw em in a squad of boyz with a power klaw and slugga and you have 5 attacks on the charge with at strength 8 with two wounds! The only thing there really lacking in is good leadership.

Sakura
08-05-2007, 19:22
It's just game balance.

Corrupt
08-05-2007, 20:52
Il trade you my Stormtroopers Chimera for enough parts and training to give 2 Storm Troopers assault cannons

mistahsmoovelegs
08-05-2007, 21:01
Il trade you my Stormtroopers Chimera for enough parts and training to give 2 Storm Troopers assault cannons

oh, ice burn!
again, I'll reiterate my last point: They're space marines!

ChaosTicket
08-05-2007, 22:00
Best units in game: Space marine

Worst Transport in Game: Space Marine

Worst Infantry in game(not including grot slaves)Guardian Defenders

Best transport in game: Wave Serpent

mistahsmoovelegs
08-05-2007, 22:03
Worst Infantry in game(not including grot slaves)Guardian Defenders



what are you smoking? how could you possibly come to this conclusion?

ChaosTicket
08-05-2007, 22:21
The fact that they have average stats, above average cost, and shoot 12" less than other units. Sure they have can move and shoot, but so can every other unit without heavy weapons.

Guardian Defenders have one advantage over other units. They can move and shoot with a heavy weapon.

mistahsmoovelegs
08-05-2007, 22:26
The fact that they have average stats, above average cost, and shoot 12" less than other units. Sure they have can move and shoot, but so can every other unit without heavy weapons.

Guardian Defenders have one advantage over other units. They can move and shoot with a heavy weapon.

under the new rules they can ride in a transport with their heavy weapon too.

the shuriken catapult rules, they can fleet, be joined by an awesome character, the list goes on.

Somebody help me out here, please!

ChaosTicket
08-05-2007, 22:31
can't fleet and shoot, any unit can be joined by characters, and any unit can have their heavy weapons in transports.

Space Marines got hosed in the transport lotto and the Eldar scored top.

mistahsmoovelegs
08-05-2007, 22:50
can't fleet and shoot, any unit can be joined by characters, and any unit can have their heavy weapons in transports.

Space Marines got hosed in the transport lotto and the Eldar scored top.

well you cant always get what you want. but to say that gaurdians are the WORST infantry in the game, you're out of your mind.

ChaosTicket
08-05-2007, 23:33
well since other infantry units like shoota boyz and Guardsmen can fire twice before guardian Defenders can gives them a big advantage.

What I should have said is that Guardian defenders are the worst Defensive unit, but they are decent on offense with mobile heavy weapons, fleet of foot, a warlock.

mistahsmoovelegs
09-05-2007, 02:04
yeah, but you wouldnt give your gaurdians a wave serpent, thats reserved for a dedicated combat squad, like howling banshees. the same goes for the Imperial gaurd. Its not like your rushing off to get into close combat with your infantry platoon?

ChaosTicket
09-05-2007, 02:18
what, firing 80 lasguns, simultaneously with 10 plasma guns in carapace armor is pretty damaging.

With Chimera APC IFVs it's even more damaging.

Wave Serpents are cheaper and better transports than falcons, even if they can have only one gun, but it's twin-linked.

4 Dire Avenger units, and 2 Fire Dragons units mounted in Wave Serpents are highly mobile, highly offensive, and highly effective against MEQs, Infantry, and Tanks. Add some Fire Prisms, an Autarch, and either warp spiders or swooping hawks and you have an awesome army.

If I mount up space marines they actually become more vulnerable and less damaging if they have rhinos. It's not hard to destroy rhinos when they are transporting units, and while being transported space marines can't shoot. WHEN it does happen, you likely just got your marine unit hurt by something like a simple autocannon that wouldn't hurt them if they weren't in a deathtrap.

mistahsmoovelegs
09-05-2007, 02:21
i cant stress enough the point that i already made. they're space marines. they can take anything on. anything.

ChaosTicket
09-05-2007, 02:29
if they fail their armor save they still suffer major damage from a destroyed rhino.

Shouldn't a rhino have a powerful front, like reinforced armor?

mistahsmoovelegs
09-05-2007, 02:32
if they fail their armor save they still suffer major damage from a destroyed rhino.

Shouldn't a rhino have a powerful front, like reinforced armor?

well marines should be able to trade in their bolters for two weapons, spit acid like in inquisitor, and dance atop the head of a pin.
But then people will **** and moan and buy their on space marine army.

ChaosTicket
09-05-2007, 02:37
I mean they should switch the armor values of the Chimera and rhino. If my rhinos could even GET NEAR the enemy yeah they'd be fine, but when i have 8 smoking wrecks by turn 2, well it sucks donkey *****.

mistahsmoovelegs
09-05-2007, 02:43
I mean they should switch the armor values of the Chimera and rhino. If my rhinos could even GET NEAR the enemy yeah they'd be fine, but when i have 8 smoking wrecks by turn 2, well it sucks donkey *****.

play with more terrain. or play your rhinos better.

ChaosTicket
09-05-2007, 03:06
haha, yeah like they just allow that in tournaments

mistahsmoovelegs
09-05-2007, 03:14
in my experience, games with more terrain are way better.
on planets as densly populated as the ones described in the fluff, there probably wouldnt be alot of open fields to get shot to death in.

Codsticker
09-05-2007, 05:24
Two different vehicles, two different roles.

A Rhino's purpose is to deliver Space Marines right to the enemy. It's primary source of protection is roaring forward at full tilt so that it's exposed to incoming fire for less time.

A Chimera's purpose is to get Guardsmen to the battlefield, but not necessarily right on top of the enemy. It then switches to being a source of fire support. Since it's supposed to stick around and both throw and take some firepower, it's a little better armoured in the front.

IMO, the Razorback should have a little better armour on the front so that it can provide a similar service to the Marines as the Chimera does to the Guard.

Bingo!


Another point on the delivery function of the rhino versus the shooter thing with the chimera...

You want to get out of a chimera? ok fine, only one exit, in the back. Wanna get out of the rhino? pick a door, any of three. I think those extra hatch options shouldn't be underestimated. It seem futile but a friend of mine once developped this tactic of swamping a vehicle's exit. Now I like mine better with more exits.

Absolutely; that is one of the main reasons why my Inquisitional Stormtroopers get Rhinos instead of Chimeras. The other two would be cost and better side armour.

Corrupt
09-05-2007, 10:29
I mean they should switch the armor values of the Chimera and rhino. If my rhinos could even GET NEAR the enemy yeah they'd be fine, but when i have 8 smoking wrecks by turn 2, well it sucks donkey *****.

Rush 12 Pop Smoke. Glances only.
All you' ever need really. The Rhino is basically a bus. It stops bolter rounds and gets marines from A to be with the minimum of fuss. One it drops them off use if it for tank shocking and providing cover.
The Chimera on the other hand is an IFV. It's job is to cover the squad and provide a reasonalbe level of firepower. Maybe take some hits. But only from the direction of the enemy. Its almost a predator that infantry can pile into the back of! Not the bus the rhino is meant to be
Why would a vehicle meant for stand up long range infantry support and firefights have average all round armour.
Why would something fast and nippey quite likely to expose its sides as it ferries marines forward at top speed place all its armour on the front?