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View Full Version : Pheonix Guard worth it?



Toby
05-05-2007, 15:58
Are pheonx guard worth the points for 20 your spending well over 300 points is it realy worth it?
They are only t3 and 5+armour save
anyone got any ideas?

ekxw
05-05-2007, 18:30
no never, they are just useless, until they have a new book, nice miniatures bad rules

sulla
05-05-2007, 23:05
Are pheonx guard worth the points for 20 your spending well over 300 points is it realy worth it?
?

There are a lot of things in the against column for them;

1) They are low toughness, low save infantry which means they will be vulnerable to shooting, magic and cavalry.
2) They are expensive 'elite' infantry meaning buying ranks is usually a bad idea and they only work well in a 'many small units' style which unfortunately means...
3) Because they work best in smaller units, and because they will struggle to win combats on their own, they can't really benefit from causing fear.

In the plus column, they are fear causing and can gain access to many very good magic banners and a couple of very good magic items for the champion. Also, as a general improvement across the board for most infantry, they can now be led by a mounted character (even a stubborn lion guard one) amking them a lot more resilient than when they counly only be led by a wafer thin foot character in the last edition.

IMO, because of all their cons and only limited pro's, they are better used only against specific enemies like fear causers or against low leadership armies with poor shooting (so, not vs skaven). Don't bother with them in an 'all-comers' list.

Dooglebug
05-05-2007, 23:31
I think Sulla summed it up pretty well. They are potentially useful against undead, but then that is one of the few instances when your spearmen shine and with numbers on their side, they probably do a better job. They are unfeasably expensive to properly take advantage of fear and don't really have anything else going for them in other situations.

wildkarrde0
05-05-2007, 23:37
short answer no there are better choices i'e bolt throwers !

sabre4190
05-05-2007, 23:39
Yes phoenix guard are horribly overpriced. Yes they are a rare choice. Yes they do die just as fast as skaven. I really just can't see any pluses for a S4 unit like these guys. When compared to swordmasters (who are special) and white lions (who have S6 and move through terrain), I can see no real reason to take them.

druchii7
05-05-2007, 23:53
they're even worse than black guard.... and black guard is reaaaaally bad...

however... I'm sure they're going to be true killing machines next army book. they'll be cheaper and stronger.

maybe two ranks halberds and fear by 14 points? (not so much compared to eternal guard)

Overt_Spy
06-05-2007, 07:09
2) They are expensive 'elite' infantry meaning buying ranks is usually a bad idea and they only work well in a 'many small units' style which unfortunately means...
3) Because they work best in smaller units, and because they will struggle to win combats on their own, they can't really benefit from causing fear.


Worth noting that they're also a 0-1 choice, so no matter how big the army, only 1 unit of Phoenix Guard can be taken.

But they seriously need a re-write in the new book. I'm hoping for unbreakable, but who knows? :rolleyes:

Dooglebug
06-05-2007, 18:36
On pheonix guard the 0-1 rule is actually a blessing in disguise, added by the games developers out of a sense game balance, to prevent the High Elf army from being underpowered, as it stops anyone doing anything stupid and god forbid, take more than one unit.

Vattendroppe
06-05-2007, 18:52
No, as been said they're really overpriced (as is quite much in the HE book right now). That will hopefully change when the new book comes out.


But they seriously need a re-write in the new book. I'm hoping for unbreakable, but who knows? :rolleyes:

Maybe that's overdoing it, but they could certainly be stubborn :p

theunwantedbeing
06-05-2007, 19:01
1. They arent any weaker than swordsmasters or spearmen.
2. They get a higher leadership so you can have ld9 in an all hero mage army.
3. They cause fear,and are therfore immune to it.
4. If you fail a fear test you cant charge the unit,regardless of your size or their size.
5. Auto-break is a very small use for fear.

Generally speaking though,this doesnt redeem their high cost and rare slot.
Which can always be better spent on bolt throwers and/or great eagles even against undead or tomb king armies.

When they get a new book they'll be a lot bette,perhaps too powerful.

Tutore
06-05-2007, 20:50
They can be useful, but cost too much. Wait for the new rules in november-december before considering buying them.

smileyface
07-05-2007, 11:01
No, they aren't.

On the other hand, the models look nice.

If the new HE book does what the last Eldar codex did then now would be a good time to buy second hand phoenix guard, because when the book comes out demand will rocket. It's a bit of a gamble, though.

Alathir
07-05-2007, 12:18
Yeah, they are 99.9% of the time NOT worth it..

ridiculously overpriced for a single strength 4 attack at W5 with toughness 3 and a 5+ save...

They SHOULD be unbreakable... they know the exact moment when they are going to die! if anyone deserves to be unbreakable it's them.

Gwelandor
09-05-2007, 21:06
they are very cool models and background but sadly their rules abilites on the field dont cut it. go with for swordmasters instead or wait for the new book.

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2007, 21:09
The fluff behind the phoenix guard tends not to lend itself well to them being unbreakable,more just a very high leadership unit,ie leadership 10.
The fluff for black guard appears to warrant the unbreakable rule...although they get stuck with mere stubborn........

Either way,they'll be a very different unit when the new HE book appears,very different indeed,and most definitely worth taking.

Overt_Spy
10-05-2007, 01:41
The fluff behind the phoenix guard tends not to lend itself well to them being unbreakable,more just a very high leadership unit,ie leadership 10.


Well, the fluff states that they know when they are going to die, I think if they know they aren't to die in a combat they wouldn't break, why would they? They know they'll survive, and if it was the combat in which they die, they'd strike me as knowing their fate is unavoidable.

Also it talks about how they cant cry out even if their guts are spilling out, somehow I just don't see these grim faced monks turning and fleeing.

I wouldn't mind Phoenix Guard not being unbreakable, but rightnow IMO, their fluff makes it seem like they should have more than just ld.9 to show for it.

Vattendroppe
10-05-2007, 05:13
The fluff behind the phoenix guard tends not to lend itself well to them being unbreakable,more just a very high leadership unit,ie leadership 10.
The fluff for black guard appears to warrant the unbreakable rule...although they get stuck with mere stubborn........

Either way,they'll be a very different unit when the new HE book appears,very different indeed,and most definitely worth taking.

Why is that, that they shouldn't be unbreakable as the fluff is now? They know the exact moment they're going to die, and can do nothing about it. If they survive the battle, they know it and can keep on fighting. If the die in the battle they know it, it's unavoidable, they know it and can keep on fighting.

I do not know the fluff for black guard, but I can hardly imagine a stronger fluff-wise reason to have unbreakable than to know the moment you're going to die and know that you cannot do anything about it.

luckysevens
10-05-2007, 09:08
Knowing exactly when they are going to die shouldn't necessarily make them unbreakable - what if the whole unit knows they are going to die 2 minutes after the first round of combat, cut down from behind as they run? So what? Are they going to not run, thus causing some horrible time paradox thing? No, they're going to go to battle and fight their damndest, even though they already know they are doomed to die - hence them being pretty grim buggers. Or what if they all know that they aren't going to die at all in the battle - so what? Maybe that's because they all run away

Not feeling pain is no reason to be unbreakable either. Generally Unbreakable things are either not alive (Undead), are totally mindless (Spawn), or actively want to die (Slayers). Although Phoenix Guard are mentally tough, and know when they are going to die, there's nothing in their fluff that says they actually want to die.

Obviously these aren't really serious points (well, mainly the time paradox thing :)), but I'd say that Stubborn would be a better rule for them than unbreakable, if they get a rule change at all (just because we want them to, doesn't mean that they will - they could well just get a points reduction)

Besides, how would unbreakable work in game terms? Suddenly, instead of no-one taking Phoenix Guard (because, to reply to the OP, they really aren't worth it), everyone would - Unbreakable is one of the most powerful rules in the game - who'd turn down an unbreakable anvil in a HE mixed-arms army? They'd need some pretty hefty restrictions to make it balanced

Sasha
10-05-2007, 10:10
i dunno, they'd be unbreakable, but would still be toughness 3 with a 5+ save. they'd be shot to pieces instead.

luckysevens
10-05-2007, 10:32
True, or they could be just avoided.

Personally, I think something along the lines of a 5+ ward save would be more appropriate - maybe Asuryan is watching over them, or maybe they've caught little glimpses of the future or something. Would make them a bit less unique (too much like the Eternal Guard?)

Anyhoo, this is all wayyyy off topic :)

Bottom line is, they aren't worth it now, but they might (fingers crossed) be come christmas

Vattendroppe
10-05-2007, 11:44
Knowing exactly when they are going to die shouldn't necessarily make them unbreakable - what if the whole unit knows they are going to die 2 minutes after the first round of combat, cut down from behind as they run? So what? Are they going to not run, thus causing some horrible time paradox thing? No, they're going to go to battle and fight their damndest, even though they already know they are doomed to die - hence them being pretty grim buggers. Or what if they all know that they aren't going to die at all in the battle - so what? Maybe that's because they all run away

Not feeling pain is no reason to be unbreakable either. Generally Unbreakable things are either not alive (Undead), are totally mindless (Spawn), or actively want to die (Slayers). Although Phoenix Guard are mentally tough, and know when they are going to die, there's nothing in their fluff that says they actually want to die.

Obviously these aren't really serious points (well, mainly the time paradox thing :)), but I'd say that Stubborn would be a better rule for them than unbreakable, if they get a rule change at all (just because we want them to, doesn't mean that they will - they could well just get a points reduction)

Besides, how would unbreakable work in game terms? Suddenly, instead of no-one taking Phoenix Guard (because, to reply to the OP, they really aren't worth it), everyone would - Unbreakable is one of the most powerful rules in the game - who'd turn down an unbreakable anvil in a HE mixed-arms army? They'd need some pretty hefty restrictions to make it balanced

They believe in faith, no matter WHAT they do, they WILL die like they know they will. Hence there's no point in doing else than to fight for their... Umm... Life? Errh... You get the point anyways. They know how they'll die no matter what they do, I.E they can do whatever they like. There's no one that would like to run from a battle if it didn't change anything, since that wouldn't be very honourable. But in the whole the faith-know-when-to-die-thing is pretty strange and can be discussed in an eternity or two. IMO it's one of the very best reasons to make a unit unbreakable fluffwise.

Gamewise it's a whole other think, but if the dwarfs can have unbreakable HE should be able to have it to and still have it balanced.

luckysevens
10-05-2007, 12:18
They believe in faith, no matter WHAT they do, they WILL die like they know they will. .

But you're assuming that they know that they'll die, say, of old age, three thousand (or whatever) years in the future, and so know that they will survive the battle and so will not break. My point is that simply knowing when you will die doesn't necessarily make you insanely brave. I don't have my HE book with me, maybe I should check it before arguing further...


Gamewise it's a whole other think, but if the dwarfs can have unbreakable HE should be able to have it to and still have it balanced.

I didn't say it would be impossible to have Unbreakable troops in the HE army, but some serious restrictions would have to be in place to make it balanced. If you look at other Unbreakables, you'll see what I mean:

- Undead, not marching away from general, pretty awful stats in general, crumbling if general dies etc
- Slayers, only joined by other slayer characters, no armour whatsoever, very slow, 0-1 choice IIRC and so on

So my point was I don't think a simple 'Make PG Unbreakable' would be a good fix for them, a whole lot more would be needed to keep them sensible.

But back to the fluff, I definitely wouldn't say PG have one of the best reasons to be Unbreakable. Fleeing is the game equivalent of people/elves/'things' trying to save themselves from dying - therefore if you're already dead, or you have no real understanding of what death is, or you actually want to die, you should never flee. Makes sense

Anyway, it's all a bit irrelevant what I/we think. The book's most likely been finished by now, we'll just have to wait to Novemeber (supposedly...)

Vattendroppe
10-05-2007, 12:27
But you're assuming that they know that they'll die, say, of old age, three thousand (or whatever) years in the future, and so know that they will survive the battle and so will not break. My point is that simply knowing when you will die doesn't necessarily make you insanely brave. I don't have my HE book with me, maybe I should check it before arguing further...



I didn't say it would be impossible to have Unbreakable troops in the HE army, but some serious restrictions would have to be in place to make it balanced. If you look at other Unbreakables, you'll see what I mean:

- Undead, not marching away from general, pretty awful stats in general, crumbling if general dies etc
- Slayers, only joined by other slayer characters, no armour whatsoever, very slow, 0-1 choice IIRC and so on

So my point was I don't think a simple 'Make PG Unbreakable' would be a good fix for them, a whole lot more would be needed to keep them sensible.

But back to the fluff, I definitely wouldn't say PG have one of the best reasons to be Unbreakable. Fleeing is the game equivalent of people/elves/'things' trying to save themselves from dying - therefore if you're already dead, or you have no real understanding of what death is, or you actually want to die, you should never flee. Makes sense

Anyway, it's all a bit irrelevant what I/we think. The book's most likely been finished by now, we'll just have to wait to Novemeber (supposedly...)

As I said, the faith-thing could be discussed for ever. I'll stay to my opinion, motivated by the same answers I gave before, and end this discussion here. *puts up stopsign*

And I didn't say that just making the PG unbreakable would be a good fix, just that it would make sense to have them unbreakable in the next edition of the book. You don't agree that it would make sense to make them unbreakable, so there's no reason for you to think they should be either.

static grass
10-05-2007, 12:27
I think stubborn would be better for the PG. Stubborn and cause fear. Unbreakable implies insane courage, general insanity or a lack of neural activity. Knowing that you are going to die does not make one brave.

In terms of game mechanics it stops them from near autobreaking due to fear and lets them take all morale tests on a 9(?)...

Caligula
10-05-2007, 12:40
It's probably redundant to say so now, but everything I've seen of them and know of them leads me to conclude that no, they aren't worth it. Not at all, almost not ever. They're simply too expensive and too uneffective to be of much real use.

I hesitate to label any unit from any army as completely useless, and since I'm not a High Elf player at the moment, nor have I been, I'll stop short of saying as much.

I mean, if any unit ever fit the shoe sized "completely useless", it might be them, but I'm sure somewhere out there, in some dark corner of the globe, someone is using them effectively and happily.

Alright, forget it...we all know that's not happening, and in the Phoenix Guard's current state, could NOT happen. They're rather useless. There, I said it. Ughhh...stating something as a definite always disturbs me, but there you have it.

I'm definately looking forward to seeing what they do with Phoenix Guard in the new High Elves army list, and I get the feeling people might actually get to finally use those beautful models they have when that time comes.

Kah-thurak
11-05-2007, 13:20
Let's just assume PG were unbreakable and had a 5+ Wardsave. Would they really be worth their points then? I very much doubt it. They would still be rather easy to kill and too expensive to field large numbers of them...

For an unbreakable unit to work it has to be either cheap or hard to kill Phoenix Guard are neither, even with a 5+ Wardsave.

Elven Lord
12-05-2007, 09:01
Unbreakable is one of the most powerful rules in the game - who'd turn down an unbreakable anvil in a HE mixed-arms army? They'd need some pretty hefty restrictions to make it balanced

I agree, Unbreakable would be to good:

Sales of PG would go through the roof - [maybe what Workshop want]

Stuburn would be much fairer

sun tzu
13-05-2007, 08:47
We have 2 high elf armies at our club, 1 guy has a 20 strong unit which he uses quite often but seems to spend the whole game cursing the unit for it's lack of ability:confused:

I don't think the sword masters are any better IMHO

NightLord
14-05-2007, 05:58
We have 2 high elf armies at our club, 1 guy has a 20 strong unit which he uses quite often but seems to spend the whole game cursing the unit for it's lack of ability:confused:

I don't think the sword masters are any better IMHO

Sword masters are 10x better... They are cheaper, stike in I order, have S 5 WS 5...

Blood_Dragon
14-05-2007, 11:28
I've used a large block, usually 25 to 30 in a few large games, and they've always turned out to be game-winners for me. They would be good against a not very shooty Bretonnian army (ie. most bretonnian armies) where you can outnumber their Knights fairly easily, provided you charge and not vice versa. But I'm definitely not convinced that they are worth it at all. They're just challenging (and fun) to use when you've got 400 points to throw away :)

eleveninches
16-05-2007, 15:00
cool models, but really useless. take white lions instead. Use white lions to sneak up through the woods and avoid missile fire, then charge into the enemy line