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lparigi34
06-05-2007, 12:54
Can you put two Chaos Characters, bearing different marks withing the same unmarked unit?

I wrote Knights instead of Characters in the Poll. It is Characters the right wording.

Parent thread:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82021

blurred
07-05-2007, 08:13
I believe there is already a discussion going on about this subject. Keep your eyes open.

Festus
07-05-2007, 08:35
I believe there is already a discussion going on about this subject. Keep your eyes open.... and I believe that this poll is a follow-up of the selfsame thread you mentioned - which is easy to see with open eyes while reading threads... :p

Festus

sds661
07-05-2007, 13:15
Had to vote "YES" to even up the score.

But should you? NO!

kroq'gar
07-05-2007, 13:22
The answer is yes.

the bonuses for the mark are not transfered to the unit, therefore more than one can join. but why would you... a slaanash hero would run with his unit, a frenzied hero charge out.

undivided heros in unmarked units do not reroll phyc.

chaos is so complicated...

Pqxy
07-05-2007, 13:26
O man after all that I think I voted YES

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 14:10
The answer is blatently no.

Yet there are people who wish to argue for it......mainly beacuse they think that a character joining an unmarked unit loses his mark.

T10
07-05-2007, 16:49
Not so. It's more that the unit does not achieve Marked status and the restriction therefore does not apply.

-T10

Festus
07-05-2007, 17:06
Hi

The answer is blatently no.

As you can see in the parent-thread, the answer is not as blatantly *no* as you want to have it.

Even though I am in your camp (yes, the answer is *no*), there are quite a few clever heads arguing against it, and their point has a merit - somewhere. :)
I will not follow their argumentation, but I will not dismiss it as unfounded either.

Funnily, the discussion jumps over here and gets watered down in this way...

Festus

ZomboCom
07-05-2007, 18:01
Fluffwise: Certainly not.

Rulewise: Probably.

I still voted no, because it shouldn't be possible.

lparigi34
07-05-2007, 19:05
Fluffwise: Certainly not.

Rulewise: Probably.

I still voted no, because it shouldn't be possible.

I agree with you, fluffwise, IMO, definetly not.

Rulewise, totally undecided

My vote: Yes, since as I already said Nth times I don't care, there is little to no upside for my chaos enemies when doing this.

Negativemoney
07-05-2007, 19:56
Yet there are people who wish to argue for it......mainly beacuse they think that a character joining an unmarked unit loses his mark.

That is not it at all. A character who joins a unit does not grant the benifits of his mark to the unit. Nor does the mark transfer to the unit. The unit in the end is still considered to be Unmarked

theunwantedbeing
07-05-2007, 20:38
The marked character in the unmarked unit makes the unit marked.
Cant see why anyone can reason against that.

lparigi34
08-05-2007, 00:04
That is not it at all. A character who joins a unit does not grant the benifits of his mark to the unit. Nor does the mark transfer to the unit. The unit in the end is still considered to be Unmarked

In fact most of the benefits of putting a marked character into an unmarked unit are either nil or negative, except in the case of Nurgle.

TheDarkDaff
08-05-2007, 00:11
That is not it at all. A character who joins a unit does not grant the benifits of his mark to the unit. Nor does the mark transfer to the unit. The unit in the end is still considered to be Unmarked
Seeing as the character is part of the unit if the unit is unmarked then so is the character. I think this falls into the same category as undivided characters with a dedicated general. It may be justifiable with a little rules lawyering but it is definately against the fluff. That said it doesn't really make much of a difference. The only real benifit to be had would be to put a nurgle hero in an unmarked unit to make it immune to fear with either an Undivided, Slaanesh or Tzeetch Character(khorne will just charge out by himself if you aren't careful.

lparigi34
08-05-2007, 00:20
The Nurgle Hero makes the whole unit inmune to fear but only counts as fear causing if the chargers charge the flank where the Nurgle hero is, so the benefit is limited.

xmbk
08-05-2007, 00:42
The marked character in the unmarked unit makes the unit marked.
Cant see why anyone can reason against that.

Is this UnwantedHammer? Because in Warhammer a Tzeentch character joining an unmarked unit certainly doesn't add a casting die to your pool.

potemkin
08-05-2007, 00:58
Answer is Yes.

The only units the rules (RAW) mention are Warriors of Chaos, Chaos Knights and Bestigor. (I still don't see how anyone can read the rule any other way)

IMO the intent is, that the rule should apply to all Marked units, but not unmarked (with or without characters in it)

MarcoPollo
08-05-2007, 02:59
The answer is yes. Having a mark in a unit is not the same as having a mark on a unit or a unit being marked. I feel that the intent is for units with marks already on it not unmarked units.

lokigod
08-05-2007, 05:49
Hate to ask this but what the hell!!!!! Does the nurgle char. benifit of fear also travel over to the unit and the undivied char. or does he have to take a fear test by himself. Have fun with that:D . Say the unidvided chars in front rank and nurgle guy is also on oppsite edge.

kroq'gar
08-05-2007, 09:02
The simple answer is this. Look at the Lizardman list. A unit given a sacred spawning may only be joined by a hero with the same spawning. Yet any number of heros with different marks may join an unblessed saurus unit.

Your looking at the mark, not at the rule, ie - mark of slannash is you are now immune to phyc. An immune hero in an unimmune unit will auto break just like them, panic etc.

Similarly a frenzied hero does not make his unit frenzied.

Is it so hard to see an unmarked hero being manipulated by a tzeench sorcerer?

and lokigod my understanding of that rule is that the majority of the unit must cause fear to force a test.

lparigi34
08-05-2007, 12:13
...and lokigod my understanding of that rule is that the majority of the unit must cause fear to force a test.

Nop, If when the charge is declared you will be charging the fear causing character then you have to test.

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 12:56
Kroq'gar there are no unmarked hero's in chaos,everyone has a mark.
That and you only need to face a fear causer to be forced to take a fear test,even if there are a million in your unit,and there is only 1 man that causes fear...you still have to take a fear test.

A sacred spawning specifically mentions character's being allowed to join units that have no spawnings,the chaos books mention nothing of the sort.

As for your example....
Sure immunity to psychology doesnt transfer from the hero to the unit
Stupidity affects the whole unit,even if only one model is stupid.
Stubborn affects the whole unit.
The immunity to fear/terror affects the whole unit.
Leadership is passed across to the unit as well.

Seems there are plenty of things that affect an entire unit when a cahracter joins them,even though the unit never had access to these rules beforehand and didnt pay to have them.

xmbk
08-05-2007, 13:24
A sacred spawning specifically mentions character's being allowed to join units that have no spawnings,the chaos books mention nothing of the sort.


Yet again: This is irrelevant. The BRB allows chars to join units. Why would the army book need to repeat this? Unless the army book specifically overrides the BRB, you play as normal. Since neither Chaos book has anything to say about chars joining unmarked units, this is a non-issue.

There's nothing to see here people. Move along. Stop trying to show you can cram more angels on the head of a pin than the next guy. Find a new windmill, this one's not worthy of your time.

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 13:47
The chaos book says that the mark affects all models in the unit.
The chaos book also states it bestows its benefits on the unit/character bearing it.

So...a character joining the unit becomes part of it.
The character has a mark so the whole unit is affected by having the mark,but only those members bearing the mark gain its benefits.
As the character and unit become 1 unit when the character joins the unit.

So you cant have 2 differently marked champions join the same unmarked unit.

Dralafi
08-05-2007, 14:02
To expand on what unwanted just said above. Page 46, first paragraph, in Hordes of Chaos says fairly clearly (IMO) that only those that pay for the mark actually gains the benefit of the mark.

Also, the very last sentance of same paragraph says that only Characters wearing the same mark may join the unit/ride in the chariot.

Most importantly, on page 55, 4 parapgrah under The Chaos General, states that only one mark plus undivided may be present in the army.

Answer is pretty simple to me, No, you can't have different marks on characters in the same unit.

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 14:22
The bit about the general doesnt really have any bearing on the rule.As you are clearly able to have 2 marks within the same army.
Remember that undivided is a mark in its own right.
ie. Tzeentch + undivided.

That said,aside from that,glad somebody else can see what I am saying.

DeathlessDraich
08-05-2007, 14:40
Didn't vote because of the question.
Iparigi: Is the question meant to be "2 Chaos characters ... joining" and not 2knights?

cold0
08-05-2007, 14:59
As player of Chaos Mortal I really like to use two different marched characters on the same unmarked unit, but, trying to been objective, the answer is NO.

lparigi34
08-05-2007, 15:05
Didn't vote because of the question.
Iparigi: Is the question meant to be "2 Chaos characters ... joining" and not 2knights?

DD, yes it is as you say, I posted the errata in the first poll thread message.

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 15:05
Why do you put 2 differently marked character's in the same unit,and what sort of setup do you have with them both?
Out of curiosity as I see little reason to stick 2 mortal characters into the same unit.......

lparigi34
08-05-2007, 15:19
Why do you put 2 differently marked character's in the same unit,and what sort of setup do you have with them both?
Out of curiosity as I see little reason to stick 2 mortal characters into the same unit.......

The only reason I see is to protect them form enemy artillery fire in the case of an emergency... But fluffwise, the character already in the unit will be more than happy to see his religious opponent shot to pieces by the opposing army.

xmbk
08-05-2007, 15:46
The chaos book says that the mark affects all models in the unit.

The section you are referencing (p46) describes marked units. There's nothing in the Chaos book that talks about marked chars joining units and bestowing their mark. It's mildly confusing, but to be honest, you really have to try to twist the words in order to support your argument.

potemkin
08-05-2007, 19:34
I had given up in making my point, but thought that I would give it one last try :)

IMO any disscusion of rules should always start with RAW, it is pointless to discuss intent before you know what the rule say and the impact it has on the game.

Intent can only be each persons own opinion on how the rule should apply to the game, and should never be used as a rule (RAW) argument.

So.. First the rule.

HoC page 46 (BoC is a copy/paste of this)
Characters, units of Chaos Warriors and Chaos
Knights, and Chaos Chariots are assumed to have the
Mark of Chaos Undivided (see opposite page). They
can replace the Mark of Chaos Undivided with the
Mark of a specific Chaos God at the additional cost
shown opposite. Each of the five Marks bestows its
benefits on the character, unit or chariot bearing it.
The Mark affects all models in the unit and only
characters bearing the same Mark can join the
unit/ride in the chariot.

This is all ONE paragraph.

The only units mentioned are Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights.

The rule never say it apply to ANY other Marked or Unmarked units.


So.. what are the effect on Characters joining units (other than Chaos Warriors and Chaos Knights):

Other Marked units (Deamons and Minotaurs): Any Character with any Mark can join
Unmarked unit: Any Character with any Mark can join
Unmarked unit with a Marked Character: Any Character with any Mark can join


This is CLEARLY not how it should be played, but it is what the rule says.

So..IMO we have to look at the intent of the rule.


The intent was that the rule should apply to all Marked units (Deamons and units that is upgraded with a Mark)

Other Marked units: Only a Character with the same Mark can join
Unmarked unit: Any Character with any Mark can join
Unmarked unit with a Marked Character: Any Character with any Mark can join



The intent was that the rule should apply to all units.

Other Marked units: Only a Character with the same Mark can join
For Unmarked there are two possilities:

The intent of the last sentence was that it does not apply to Unmarked units

Unmarked unit: Any Character with any Mark can join
Unmarked unit with a Marked Character: Here are the problem, does a Unmarked unit with a Marked Character count as Marked. IMO there are no rule that say they do.



The intent of the last sentence was that it should be read as Unmarked is not the same mark as one of the five Marks.

Unmarked unit: Any Character with any Mark CANNOT join
Unmarked unit with a Marked Character: N/A





IMO the intent was that the rule should apply to all Marked units (Deamons and units that is upgraded with a Mark). My reason for that, is that the rule mention specific units in the rule, and think that they (GW) just forgot that other units have/can get Marks.

If the intent was that the last two sentences should apply to all units, they (GW) would have made those sentences a separate paragraph, and changed the use of “the” to “a”.

WLBjork
08-05-2007, 21:16
But again you are forgetting to add the pertinent rule from the BRB:

A character that joins a unit is part of that unit. (To be exact, after joining a unit
In this case, he becomes part of the unit until he decides to leave it.

Beast Herd + Wargor with Mark of Nurgle = Unit with a Mark!

potemkin
08-05-2007, 21:45
But again you are forgetting to add the pertinent rule from the BRB:

A character that joins a unit is part of that unit. (To be exact, after joining a unit

Beast Herd + Wargor with Mark of Nurgle = Unit with a Mark!

Well.. yes and no.

Unit with a Mark != Marked Unit

I know that the character becomes part of the unit, but there are no explanation on how this work for marks.

What GW has made clear, is that the Unmarked unit doesn't gain the Mark or effects of the Mark, and only the normal rules apply to the effects of the Marked Character.

Sanjuro
08-05-2007, 21:49
As player of Chaos Mortal I really like to use two different marched characters on the same unmarked unit, but, trying to been objective, the answer is NO.

You do? Really? Please, tell me about this, because I was having trouble imagining when it would be practical to put 2 characters with different marks in a single unmarked unit, unless it was a 'last resort' kind of thing, hiding your characters from cannonfire or suchlike.

Atrahasis
08-05-2007, 21:56
You do? Really? Please, tell me about this, because I was having trouble imagining when it would be practical to put 2 characters with different marks in a single unmarked unit, unless it was a 'last resort' kind of thing, hiding your characters from cannonfire or suchlike.

Well, it might be a point-saving exercise (General with Mark of Khorne, BSB with Undivided) or it might be bodyguard (Sorceror in unit with Bodyguard character with different mark).

Not gamebreaking examples, and of limited utility, but certainly its better to be able to do it in a pinch than not.

Sanjuro
08-05-2007, 22:27
Not gamebreaking examples, and of limited utility, but certainly its better to be able to do it in a pinch than not.

Oh absolutely, but it sounded like it was a major part of his battleplan. As you say, I can see someone doing it in a pinch (actually, I think I have done so at least once in the past myself), but I can't really see someone doing it regularly.

MarcoPollo
09-05-2007, 05:39
Well how about a wargor of Tzeetch and two shaman of Slaanesh. In a superherd with lots of powerdice from tzeetch marked units, you could potentially have the ability to protect you shaman well and still be able to cast nasty slaanesh spells with all those extra powerdice.

I know that alot of people will cringe at the cheese factor here, but for powergamers, this could be a strategy.

Or how about 4 characters of different marks in a big hound unit or marauder horsemen unit. It becomes an "eggs in one basket approach", but something that could be a game breaking approach against certain armies.

But otherwise, I only see this strategy as either a point saving excercise or a bodyguard issue as the main aspects.

lparigi34
09-05-2007, 10:59
Well how about a wargor of Tzeetch and two shaman of Slaanesh. In a superherd with lots of powerdice from tzeetch marked units, you could potentially have the ability to protect you shaman well and still be able to cast nasty slaanesh spells with all those extra powerdice.

I know that alot of people will cringe at the cheese factor here, but for powergamers, this could be a strategy.


Powergamers can do this totally covered by the rules umbrella if the general is Undivided.


Or how about 4 characters of different marks in a big hound unit or marauder horsemen unit. It becomes an "eggs in one basket approach", but something that could be a game breaking approach against certain armies.

But otherwise, I only see this strategy as either a point saving excercise or a bodyguard issue as the main aspects.

It might be possible, even with all 4 chraracters bearing the same mark. I'd like to see it against any decent general.

WLBjork
09-05-2007, 14:13
Well.. yes and no.

Unit with a Mark != Marked Unit

I know that the character becomes part of the unit, but there are no explanation on how this work for marks.

What GW has made clear, is that the Unmarked unit doesn't gain the Mark or effects of the Mark, and only the normal rules apply to the effects of the Marked Character.

Why are you refering to a marked unit?

The rules don't.

The pertinent sentence is
The Mark affects all models in the unit, and only characters with the same Mark can join the unit.

Thus Beast Herd + Wargor with Mark of Nurgle = Unit with Mark of Nurgle, and a Shaman with Mark of Undivided cannot now join the unit.

T10
09-05-2007, 14:19
Why are you refering to a marked unit?

The rules don't.

The pertinent sentence is [blablabla]


The pertinent context is with regards to Marked units. Isolating the sentence and reading it as the complete rule is, well, a kind of lie.

-T10

potemkin
09-05-2007, 16:25
Why are you refering to a marked unit?

The rules don't.

The pertinent sentence is

The Mark affects all models in the unit, and only characters with the same Mark can join the unit.

Thus Beast Herd + Wargor with Mark of Nurgle = Unit with Mark of Nurgle, and a Shaman with Mark of Undivided cannot now join the unit.

But a Mark on a character does not affect all models in a unit (GW has made that clear), so the unit is still a Unmarked unit with a Marked character in it. What that mean only GW knows.

enyoss
09-05-2007, 16:53
The simple answer is this. Look at the Lizardman list. A unit given a sacred spawning may only be joined by a hero with the same spawning. Yet any number of heros with different marks may join an unblessed saurus unit.


That may be a simple answer, but it is only the simple answer for Lizardmen :). As far as I know, Lizardmen of different spawnings don't pathologically hate each other, which is the case with followers of different Chaos Gods.

I voted 'No'. I think it's a knife-edge ruleswise (but only through sloppy wording... I really think that once a character joins a unit it definitely counts as carrying the character's mark), but I think the intent is clear, which brings a considerable weight down on the 'No' side.

Cheers,

enyoss

deadkez
09-05-2007, 17:36
It was earlier ask how this would be beneficial:

Last night I played against a Morghur-led beastman army that had a Raiders-style Great Weapon-equipped Bestigor unit (which may have had Mark of Tzeentch, some unit in his army must have); in this unit was a Tzeentch Hero BSB with a '+1A on charge' banner and an Undivided Shaman with Staff of Darkov (sp?).

So let me sum this up:
a unit of 20 WS4 S6 with 2A each, effective 20" charge range with 360 LOS and still gets +2 rank bonus, +2 Standard Bonus and has two heroes in it. Oh, and it can't be flanked (without support) and gets a -1 to hit at a range, and spear chukkas are ineffective (and busy with chaos spawn, this is a Morghur army).

It ripped through 4 units (a unit of savage orcs took 16 Wounds).

I wondered at the time about the legality of it, but let it go so I could get on with the game... And low & behold I find this active discussion the very next day.

Atrahasis
09-05-2007, 17:40
It was earlier ask how this would be beneficial:

Last night I played against a Morghur-led beastman army that had a Raiders-style Great Weapon-equipped Bestigor unit (which may have had Mark of Tzeentch, some unit in his army must have);If the unit had the mark of tzeentch then it is certainly illegal.

gjnoronh
09-05-2007, 19:16
But as we know from the beast rules - beast herds by definition can't have any mark.



But again you are forgetting to add the pertinent rule from the BRB:

A character that joins a unit is part of that unit. (To be exact, after joining a unit
Quote In this case, he becomes part of the unit until he decides to leave it.
Beast Herd + Wargor with Mark of Nurgle = Unit with a Mark!


Hmm by this reasoning if I have a wizard in a unit any model can cast spells.
necromancer + skelletons = 20 level one casters SWEET!
Or how about

Wargor with MoK in beast herd - the entire HERD now has MoK so gives +1 dispell dice and has frenzy. GREAT!

Or how about - character with a runefang in a unit of knights - the entire unit now makes autowounding armor save ignoring attacks. PERFECT!

I agree the character is part of the unit - if the character had MR and a spell was cast at the unit you could use the MR. What I don't understand is why you would think the unit benefits from the characters mark without paying points for it? Because you certainly can't have the unit "having the marK" and suffering from the negatives without talking about theri access to the benefits.

Come on over to herdstone sometime - lots and lots and lots of lists with mixed marks in single herds.

deadkez you recognize if your opponent had MoT on the lord character then they could just as easily have taken the staff of darkoth on the general (counts as a great weapon) AND the BSB with MoT (yellow fire ward save spell. . . ) I'm not sure how not mixinig marks would have helped you much

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2007, 19:47
Thats not combining marks for any actual benefit over doing it with only one mark.

The only benefit I see with a beast unit with more than one marked character in is when one of those character's has the mark of nurgle(for fear immunity) as you cant get fear causing beast character's on foot without spells.And Either a tzeentch cahracter to gain a ward save through yellow fire,or a khornate character to gain magic resistance.

otherwise you can get any benefit through using only one mark.

metro_gnome
09-05-2007, 21:50
the major problem is that everyone is making the assumption that marks only bring benefits to the bearer...
thats why the major argument from the "yes" camp is "well the unit doesn't benefit from the mark"...
that is entirely correct... the unit does not benefit from the mark it all...
it is restricted by the mark... in the same way as the character is restricted by the mark...

if a character with M3 joins a unit with M4 the unit is restricted by the characters limitations...
so too does the unmarked unit inherit the marked character's limitations...

Atrahasis
09-05-2007, 23:12
The rules for characters joining units apply only when the unit is Marked. The unit is Marked if and only if the points have been paid to give that unit a mark (or it has the Mark of Undivided).

That's the rules. I don't like it from a fluff point of view but I think I know what the reaction would be if I of all people started using fluff as an argument in the rules forum ;)

TheDarkDaff
10-05-2007, 07:08
The rules for characters joining units apply only when the unit is Marked. The unit is Marked if and only if the points have been paid to give that unit a mark (or it has the Mark of Undivided).

That's the rules. I don't like it from a fluff point of view but I think I know what the reaction would be if I of all people started using fluff as an argument in the rules forum ;)

And so we ask the simple question of what is a unit. From the BRB we can devise that anything in the list below is a unit:
- Character
- Regiment
- Monster
- Artillery Piece with crew
- Monster with Handlers
- Chariot
- A character in a regiment (all 1 unit)
- A character on a Chariot (again this is 1 unit)

Either side you come down on you are making assumptions. If you say yes different marked characters can join an unmarked unit then you are assuming that they mean "regiment" in the final line of the rule when it says "unit". If you say no you are assuming that when the Chaos book says "unit" they mean "unit" in all its possible permutations.

I do agree with you on one big point though that Fluff(while it is completely against the idea of Champions of different gods being in the same regiment) should not be used in a rules debate. Neither should the fact that it is an almost useless thing to do.

Atrahasis
10-05-2007, 07:57
Either side you come down on you are making assumptions. If you say yes different marked characters can join an unmarked unit then you are assuming that they mean "regiment" in the final line of the rule when it says "unit". If you say no you are assuming that when the Chaos book says "unit" they mean "unit" in all its possible permutations.The paragraph covering the rules for characters and makred units certainly means regiment. It distinguishes between character, chariot, and unit.

kroq'gar
10-05-2007, 08:44
The point about marks effecting the whole unit are if the mark is purchased FOR the unit, not for the character.

a unit without a mark cannot purchase a mark, therefore cannot benefit from one.

they can join the same unit. Personally i wouldnt do this as the benefits are seriously dubious and the potential points sink would make me shudder, but it can be done.

This really only means that it can be done with marauders or hounds, as the others have a natural mark.

Remember beasts may only join beasts, mortals mortals, deamons, deamons (deamons all have a natural mark anyways so are irrelevant).

Nowhere does it say that a character with a mark confers its abilities onto a unit. This is such a large point it would be explicitely referenced or refered to in an errata.

potemkin
10-05-2007, 13:36
...
Remember beasts may only join beasts, mortals mortals, deamons, deamons (deamons all have a natural mark anyways so are irrelevant).
...

Mortals can join all the units in BoC except Beast Units (Beast and Bestigor Herds, Tuskgor Chariots, and Warhounds of Chaos) BoC page 49 and 50.

TheDarkDaff
11-05-2007, 03:32
That brings up another interesting point. Can a Mortal Character and a Beasts or Daemonic character join the same regiment that isn't defined as either Mortal, Daemon or Beast(like Chaos Ogres).

Also if someone could show me where you buy a chaos mark for a unit. I can see where you buy them for Characters, Chariots and regiments but no unit entry. my point here is that while i believe Atrahasis is right in that was what they were trying to say but that it really isn't what they said.

lparigi34
11-05-2007, 03:52
That brings up another interesting point. Can a Mortal Character and a Beasts or Daemonic character join the same regiment that isn't defined as either Mortal, Daemon or Beast(like Chaos Ogres).


Covered by the rules as the Daemonic Characters or units cannot mix with non-daemonic ones (the BoC book differentiates using the word non-daemonic so it is everything else that is not daemonic)

Then the only possibility may arise for the special or rare units in the BoC armybook. I do not see why a Mortal or Beast Chaos Character could not join a Chaos Trolls unit, either one is allowed to do this.

So the question is simmilar as for the marks, can they do this at the same time? And if, in addition they carry different marks, then what?

And remember that Warhounds are both, beast and mortal at the same time... So can they be joined by either character.

TheDarkDaff
11-05-2007, 03:59
It is bery similar but i disagree on one point about the warhounds. They would be either Beasts or Mortal depending on which slot they take up and who the General is. You either buy them as Mortal or Beasts befor the battle. If they counted as both at the same time they would always take up a special slot regardless of the general.

lparigi34
11-05-2007, 04:04
It is bery similar but i disagree on one point about the warhounds. They would be either Beasts or Mortal depending on which slot they take up and who the General is. You either buy them as Mortal or Beasts befor the battle. If they counted as both at the same time they would always take up a special slot regardless of the general.

LOL... pretty confusing rules, aren't they?... I agree, they always count as core except for Daemonic armies.

kroq'gar
12-05-2007, 08:25
chaos ogres, dragon ogres etc are not beasts. They are in the beats book, but as special and rare, just like they are for any other chaos army.

The beasts units are markes beasts.

L192837465
15-05-2007, 15:49
ok, you guys are all wrong. the rule states:

"no charecter of a different mark may join a warrior, knight, or ride in a chariot of a different mark"


warriors, knights, and chariots are the only units in a hoards army that are allowed to change the mark. when you purchase them, they have the MARK of chaos undivided. you cannot mix any characters or mark types in one unit. ever. the only exception to this is with marauders, because they cannot have marks, and therefor bestow no benifit to the character and vice'-verse'.

EX: a tzeench character may not join khorn warrior unit under any circumstance ever.

or: an undivided charecter may not join a unit of slaanesh.

Goq Gar
15-05-2007, 16:01
Isn't it like saurus with sacred spawnings? Only characters with the same spawnings as the units they want to join can join units.

Festus
15-05-2007, 16:16
Hi

ok, you guys are all wrong. the rule states:

"no charecter of a different mark may join a warrior, knight, or ride in a chariot of a different mark"


warriors, knights, and chariots are the only units in a hoards army that are allowed to change the mark. when you purchase them, they have the MARK of chaos undivided. you cannot mix any characters or mark types in one unit. ever. the only exception to this is with marauders, because they cannot have marks, and therefor bestow no benifit to the character and vice'-verse'.

EX: a tzeench character may not join khorn warrior unit under any circumstance ever.

or: an undivided charecter may not join a unit of slaanesh.
Wow!

You have proven to have neither the slightest grasp of the English language and grammar nor of the point the thread is about.

Impressive.

Welcome to Warseer... :D

Festus

theunwantedbeing
15-05-2007, 17:07
The point of this(fairly pointless by now) thread is to argue whether the mark of a character makes an unmarked unit count as marked once that character has joined to become part of the unit.

Thats the debate.
Some say yes the unit does count as marked.

Others say the unit counts as unmarked as they dont get any benefits of the mark.

It isnt clarified either way in any of the rules so we have this debate.
Which is intself pointless....

Although if we go off the poll then the answer at the moment is no,you cant have 2 differently marked characters in an unmarked unit.

There is almost no point in putting to seperately marked character's in the same unit anyway...hence the pointlessness of the debate.

L192837465
15-05-2007, 17:44
see, you're misquoting me. re-read my post and it still remains valid. (sorry about some of the grammar mistakes... i'm tired and only on my first cup of coffee)

you CANNOT have a CHARACTER with a mark join a UNIT WITH A MARK OF A DIFFERENT TYPE.

the MARK of chaos undivided counts as a mark for this purpose, hense why warriors, knights, and chariots get the mark when you purchase them.

if you have a character with the mark of tzeench, he cannot join any warrior unit, knight unit, or chariot that is not devoted entirely to tzeench. including undivided.

marauders, MH, and beast herds do NOT come with a mark and you cannot mark them in any way form or fashion, therefor, you CAN place a character in the unit (or multiple characters with different marks) in the unit.

however you stated does the effect of the character bestow upon the unit:

lets think about that one logically, shall we?
i have a block of 25 warriors of undivided. since some of you belive if you put a character marked something else in the unit the dude gives his mark to the unit. i have 4 characters in the unit: khorne, nurgle, tzeench, and slaanesh. according to you, the unit now: causes fear, is immune to psychology, is frenzied, and generates an additional power dice and dispel dice.

thats stupid. no, you cannot mix marks in a unit, and the marks are not given to the unit by a character bearing a mark.

FYI: in a hoards army, i can play up to 4 beast herds, or anything from the beasts book as specials. and vice versa. they made the books to translate, but a beast character cannot join a mortal unit vise versa or a moral join a deamonic unit (unless given the appropriate item)

hope that clears some of this up

Festus
15-05-2007, 18:16
Apart from that noone even has a problem with Marked units joined by Characters.

The thread is about Marked Characters in Unmarked units, mate :rolleyes:

Festus

L192837465
15-05-2007, 18:22
"marauders, MH, and beast herds do NOT come with a mark and you cannot mark them in any way form or fashion, therefor, you CAN place a character in the unit (or multiple characters with different marks) in the unit."

thats a quote from my last post. i'm assuming you're stating marauders, marauder horsemen, beast herds, furies, and anything else with no marks or no ability to take a mark, then any character can join, and multiple marks may be present in the unit. but the marks are NOT bestowed on the unit and the character retains his marks particular abilities.

EX: khorn lord in a unit of beastmen. if the beastmen dont charge something, but might be in range, the lord measures range and if possibly, charges the unit, leaving the beastmen behind as per the characters leaving units rule.


personally, i dont see why this is here, the rules are pretty much spelled out for you in each army book

lparigi34
15-05-2007, 19:50
personally, i dont see why this is here, the rules are pretty much spelled out for you in each army book

Hi.

It is a link to a parent thread in the first post of this poll. Please read it. It is not as straightforward as it seems, and if you voted you can see how close the poll is.

The important thing is that valid arguments has been stated defending either side due to the rules not explicitly addresing the issue. :(

Festus
16-05-2007, 10:56
Hi

It is not as straightforward as it seems, and if you voted you can see how close the poll is.
I'd hardly call a 20% difference a close poll, there are Presidents out there who hold their office with much less of a difference. ;)

If anything, the poll shows that people view the issue at hand - for whatever reasons - with a distinct bias towards *not* mixing Marks within units...

Festus

lparigi34
16-05-2007, 12:32
I'd hardly call a 20% difference a close poll, there are Presidents out there who hold their office with much less of a difference. ;)

You Fiend :D... I insist this is close. A difference about a rule should be 100%, as it should be with any law. Presidential elections are about beliefs and prefereces, this is not.

metro_gnome
16-05-2007, 14:28
then why have a poll at all?

MarcoPollo
17-05-2007, 04:42
I think the result is still close. Plus the rules are not totally clear. So we must wait for a FAQ or erratta or the new army book.

And I hope that they change the rules regarding raiders at the same time.

xmbk
18-05-2007, 15:03
Is this still going on? It's over. Go home. ;)

I'll take the rulebook over a random poll anyday. I can see where there may be confusion, but this doesn't need a FAQ. It's been unequivocally shown that 2 marked chars can go in an unmarked unit. It may be fluff-stupid 90% of the time, but that doesn't prevent someone from doing it.


L192837465: Consider reading before stating an opinion.