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sigur
07-05-2007, 22:45
Hey there.

In the past weeks, I kept on reading about the obviously infamous "TSC collapse of 1994". While I know quite a bit of GW's history, I just can't figure out what people refer to by using this term. Maybe I heard of it under another name but I just can't see what "TSC" is supposed to mean.

Bloodknight
07-05-2007, 23:15
Misspelled. They mean TSR (Tactical Studies something (research?)), the guys who originally published D&D. AFAIK they got a lot of stuff in warehouses which they couldnīt sell and went bankrupt, but I could be wrong about it.

Templar Ben
07-05-2007, 23:24
TSR was bought by WotC back before they were owned by Hasbro.

Art Is Resistance
08-05-2007, 07:12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSR%2C_Inc.

All you need to know about hte sorry saga of a once great company.

In essence, TSR were to the 80's what GW are now - the big player in the business.

There were others as well though - we shouldn't forget FASA studios, West End Games and Avalon Hill - FASA now design computer games, WEG are still going, albeit without licenses such as Paranoia, and Avalon Hill are owned by the same people as TSR - Hasbro (through WOTC).

I think the sorriest tale of the big RPG houses is that of Palladium Games - ripped off from within, left nearly bankrupt.

Take a look at this: http://www.palladiumbooks.com/

silence
08-05-2007, 17:34
aye, the story about palladium is a sad one, but this can be said of most of the big publishers of RPG's. In 20 years time ill people like me be remembering the fall of the once seemingly invincible stranglehold of the GW empire, how it withered and decayed and then toppled. I live in Cambridge and can remember TSR pulling out of the area... A sad day in gaming history.

Bloodknight
08-05-2007, 18:34
At least the good FASA stuff like Classic BT, Shadowrun etc went to Fanpro, who in spite of bad marketing are still in the business.

RobC
08-05-2007, 19:30
Any idea what actually happened to Palladium?

Templar Ben
08-05-2007, 19:34
The Sales Manager that looted the company had a plea agreement where he had to pay less than $50K of the $1MM that he stole.

They are around still and they are still ruled by an iron fist.

Funny thing is, it was the origional d20 in that it was one basic system across all game worlds. They were too concerned about keeping total control that they were not able to use it.

RobC
08-05-2007, 19:41
Plea bargains stink.

I'm aware of some of Palladium's output - RIFTS was by all accounts (back in the late 90s when I still gamed) a system so broken that the only way to play it was to buy new supplements with even bigger guns. And Paul Mason (one-time WD contributor, Fighting Fantasy writer and all-round RPG guru) once quipped that Siembieda was truly a renaissance man - he could draw a little, write a little, but was totally out of date.

But enough bitchery - nobody deserves that kind of behaviour.

Brother Asmodeus
09-05-2007, 09:11
Just a quick point....Tom Kirby was in charge at TSR in the UK then he moved to GW....

Brandir
09-05-2007, 12:21
GW and TSR worked extremely closely in the early days; GW published AD&D books in the UK.

Art Is Resistance
09-05-2007, 17:57
Rifts was a great backgorund - but yes, the system was broken more than 1st ed 40k!

GW made a lot of it's early money form selling licenced product - I remember (and still have) buying copies of the GW versions of Paranoia! Call of Cthulhu and runequest, and buying the 2nd Ed AD&D rulebooks as they came out from the Birmingham GW!

Grimshawl
09-05-2007, 18:34
Rifts is a great system, heck I can pull out my very first Rifts core book and run a game or make characters from it and play fully compatable with any and all Rifts books put out in the last two decades, wow sounds broken to me. The whole system doesnt rely on every single character class being exactly equall to every other character because.... your not competing against all the other characters, the GM is telling a story that all the player characters are a part of. Now I wont say that Rifts is the Bestest RPG of all time, I love it but I recognise it does have some short comings, but Palladium has been really good to its fans forever, the books are still reasonably priced, they keep putting out books detailing things the fans want and they dont invalidate your old books you bought off them. I for one hope they recover and keep printing Rifts for my whole life.

Templar Ben
09-05-2007, 18:53
Rifts is a great system, heck I can pull out my very first Rifts core book and run a game or make characters from it and play fully compatable with any and all Rifts books put out in the last two decades, wow sounds broken to me. The whole system doesnt rely on every single character class being exactly equall to every other character because.... your not competing against all the other characters, the GM is telling a story that all the player characters are a part of. Now I wont say that Rifts is the Bestest RPG of all time, I love it but I recognise it does have some short comings, but Palladium has been really good to its fans forever, the books are still reasonably priced, they keep putting out books detailing things the fans want and they dont invalidate your old books you bought off them. I for one hope they recover and keep printing Rifts for my whole life.

People call it broken simply because they players are not balanced. The whole bit about Mega damage keeps some players being very powerful and some worthless without a suit. It is hard to run a system like that without keeping everyone in combat.

I am glad you like the system though. Good luck with that.

grickherder
10-05-2007, 00:38
My problem with Palladium's system is that they encourage decision making and game behavior that is the exact opposite of what I'd want to accomplish in an RPG. I'd probably list it as one of the worst systems ever.

I'm a big fan of the indie rpgs that have been developed. Their mechanics actually encourage story right at the game play level, rather than trying to make a simulation with stats for everything and a combat system that takes hours and hours.

And hours. Rifts combat takes forever once you have a party of 6.

Grimshawl
10-05-2007, 15:00
Each to their own I guess, I consider Rifts to be on the same level as D&D as far as character interaction and roldeplaying go, both systems have alot of simularities.
It sounds like you guys might be more of White Wolf style RPGrs perhaps, nothing wrong with that either, I like the old world of darkness set up alot.
as far as bad systems go, the old FASA systems were terible if you take them out and compare them to modern RPG systems, Doctor Who springs to my mind as being particularly bad.

Templar Ben
10-05-2007, 15:34
Actually I wasn't too big of a fan of WW. I loved D&D though. I didn't see Rifts having the same level of Roleplaying but that could simply be due to the groups with which I played.

FASA did a good job with Battletech/Mechwarrior in my opinion. I also like the Star Trek game they had back in the late 80s. You could go from the RPG to the wargame and back seemlessly.

Bookwrak
10-05-2007, 15:38
Rifts would be so much better if Palladium would stop pretending the system was perfect, and after seventeen years did something to straighten out the mess of a rulebook.

And yes, am I still bitter about the loss of Tolkeen.

As for TSR, you can really lay blame at the feet of Lorraine Williams, who didn't 'get' gaming, and whose mismanagement drove the company further and further into the ground. IIRC, she fled the country under indictment for embezzlement and fraud.

Grimshawl
10-05-2007, 15:58
Well Palladium did release a new version of the core rulebook that is laid out alot better and does make some minor adjustments to the rules, just not enough to invalidate any of the older books, for which I am very gratefull, personally.
I am not really super happy about all the hows and whys of Tolkeens loss myself but, at least in Rifts the story line continues forward instead of being eternally stuck.

Templar Ben
10-05-2007, 16:02
Here here Grimshawl. So many say that if they went forward 10 years in GW's universe that all the gamers would hear that X is no longer the leader of this Craftworld and the new one is named Y and people will quit playing. Shadowrun advanced the storyline. Battletech advanced the storyline. Forgotten Realms advanced the storyline. Dragonlance advanced the storyline. It works.

the1stpip
10-05-2007, 16:25
Personally, I feel WW is the best system, but if you want broken systems, try something like Buffy. One player gets to be the chosen one (how do you decide who>), and the rest of the group play the scooby gang...

Bookwrak
11-05-2007, 19:55
Personally, I feel WW is the best system, but if you want broken systems, try something like Buffy. One player gets to be the chosen one (how do you decide who>), and the rest of the group play the scooby gang...

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
If you don't like the game, you could give an actual reason, instead of y'know just making crap up.

silence
11-05-2007, 21:59
Well, back on the original yopic, i hope this thread has answered your question.

On the new topic, I always liked Recon for fast action (vietnam wareesq), and i have always liked rifts. But with any game it runs on the strength of the DM, i've played D&D when all you do is roll die after die after die, and at the other end i have played it to the point when the story has become so central that at times the rules have taken second place to the action, and have memories of great characters that my group still talk about many years later, all thanks to the DM.

I also liked the old WoD setup, though I always thought that the Werewolves should have just eaten the Vampires long ago. (though I am hardly unbiased in this opinion so take it with a grain of salt if it upsets ya ;) )

Archaon
11-05-2007, 22:15
At least the good FASA stuff like Classic BT, Shadowrun etc went to Fanpro, who in spite of bad marketing are still in the business.

Actually Fanpro is pulling out of the RPG market and will most likely continue as a novel publisher if they can avoid bankruptcy at all.

They already sold "The Black Eye" (their most lucrative fantasy roleplaying game) to another publisher and Shadowrun is soon to be sold too.

Other game franchises have withered long ago.. Classic Battletech died a long and slow death and other games like Armalion (a tabletop based on the Black Eye rpg) never really took off.

Rumors and accusations are rampant as to why but some can be easily spotted.. bad book quality (misprints, extreme amount of spelling and grammar mistakes), extremely slow release schedules (Shadowrun 4 is out almost 2 years and only the magic supplement book has been released) etc..

It remains to be seen if they survive this year as a company.. it doesn't look too good.

Casarez
11-05-2007, 22:41
Actually Fanpro is pulling out of the RPG market and will most likely continue as a novel publisher if they can avoid bankruptcy at all.

They already sold "The Black Eye" (their most lucrative fantasy roleplaying game) to another publisher and Shadowrun is soon to be sold too.

Other game franchises have withered long ago.. Classic Battletech died a long and slow death and other games like Armalion (a tabletop based on the Black Eye rpg) never really took off.

Not quite completely true. The licenses for Classic Battletech and Shadowrun are going to be transferred to InMediaRes (The people currently running Battlecorps). They are in talks now with Wizkids about it since Wizkids owns the gaming rights to CBT and SR.

Now Fanpro is giving these up willingly so they will not longer be involved. Not sure what it means for them but the games will survive.

Bloodknight
11-05-2007, 22:52
@Archaon: itīs Dark Eye for the English speaking people (DSA, isnīt it? they changed it to Dark because the name sounds silly otherwise) I thought that went from Schmidt Spiele to Fanpro. Whoīs getting it now?

CBT just got a new edition, I wouldnīt say itīs dead. I have not bought the new one however as I own most of 2nd and 3rd edition.
Armalion had mostly really ugly sculpts. Itīs onlyredeeming factor was that it was sort of cheap for a TT - a friend of mine collected it and it made me think that Werner Klocke was overrated ^^.

Yeah. The German edition of the SR4 rulebook is a mess, almost no page references are correct as they just kept the numbers while translating from English but the German stuff is longer and so the pages donīt match. the game however is a lot more playable than the 3 versions before. I played them all, I liked 1st and 2nd edition, didnīt like 3rd edition and really like 4th edition.

Crazy Harborc
12-05-2007, 00:30
Once upon a time, long ago, there was a new idea, a new game. You needed only a few minies/models....Heck, none at all really. The game was ALL in ONE book. Dungeons and Dragons.....some unknown company was publishing it.

We took a chance....we ordered 8 copies. Within ohhh, 10 days we had our second shipment. TSR and it's D & D book(S) were a good part of our sales. Loads of players were doing it as well as wargaming.

I don't know the whole story about the fall of TSR....Internal strife, bad product choices, bad financial moves....Maybe the owners, operators just burned out too.

Over the last 30 plus years, many companies have come and gone.

IMHO, GW is on top...for now......Just as Minifigs, Ral Partha, Grenadier, TSR and several more were, were once upon a time.;)

Archaon
12-05-2007, 10:26
@Archaon: itīs Dark Eye for the English speaking people (DSA, isnīt it? they changed it to Dark because the name sounds silly otherwise) I thought that went from Schmidt Spiele to Fanpro. Whoīs getting it now?



It's a company called Ulisses Games or something like that.. never heard of them.

fwacho
12-05-2007, 10:28
I remember playing classic battletech around age 14 (some 14 years ago) It always annoyed me that clan tonnage and innershpere tonnage weren't a fair way to rate mechs for even game. That's what appealed to em in 40k. It was based on tryign to put to even but differerent enemies against each other.

I even toock a spin at Mechwarrior when 4thedtion was being released becasue I couldn't find opponentes for 40k. spent about 1000 dollar that year (it was a good year for me financially) i also sold four of my 40k armies to to pay for the hobby. Wish I had those eldar and necrons back.

simonr1978
12-05-2007, 10:36
It always annoyed me that clan tonnage and innershpere tonnage weren't a fair way to rate mechs for even game.

That's why they had the Battle Value system. Using straight tonnages of equal value would be the 40K equivilent of saying "You have 30 models and I'll have 30 models" regardless of the fact that one player had Marines and the other Guard (For example).

Bloodknight
12-05-2007, 14:34
Thatīs why the Clans had Rules of Honour (only single combat, not two mechs on one, no close combat, etc.) and the IS normally used, depending on the level of Honour, up to double the tonnage if you didnīt use the CV or BV system.
Just using tonnage as balancing factor never worked. For example a Banshee is infinitely worse than a Warhammer, although itīs 25 tons heavier.