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popisdead
08-05-2007, 22:05
Local manager just got back from CA Games Day after talking to higher-ups, said High Elves get an army-blanket "strike first" rule.

Seems the studio really wants to make elf infantry work.

[edit] also: the new plastic dragon/drake rider is very very nice. And I forgot the White Lion chariot is there and possibly goes in a rare slot.

Freenut
08-05-2007, 22:15
:wtf: Hope so but seems to be a good way to make sure High Elf players will have a hard time getting games with the new list.

skott4991
08-05-2007, 22:22
I heard that sword masters did but not sure about anything else.

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 22:31
I doubt the whole army gets to "strike first".
Just swordsmasters perhaps,although that will make them die from shooting more than they already do.

skott4991
08-05-2007, 22:37
Thunderers and hand gunner sales increase 3 fold. :D

chivalrous
08-05-2007, 22:46
I'm agreeing with the rest of these replies referring to the swordmasters; That was mentioned a few months back on these forums, but it's nice to have some confirmation.

On the subject of the whole army... Well, it makes some sense for the spearmen to use the rule. Who, afterall, wants to run at three ranks worth of spears?, you're bound to loose some of the charging unit to sheer momentum :D

While it doesn't make much sense for the Phoenix guard to use this rule as there is nothing in the background to support it, it's a bonus they sorely need.

I don't see the need for any cavalry to benefit from this rule and frankly they don't need it. Any High Elf general who isn't getting the first charge in with his cavalry deserves to get hit first, excepting, of course, charges made in subsequent rounds while the unit is still in combat.

I wonder if this will carry over to Dark Elves? that could make both Spear elves and Corsairs quite nasty...not to mention Witch Elves *winces*

laughingman
08-05-2007, 22:53
The rule is suppose to be strike in initiative order, I dont like it, a fix that takes away alot to the charge flee reactions.

It also was suppose to be models on foot only.[dice0]

theunwantedbeing
08-05-2007, 23:01
Indeed it would take a lot of the tactical element from the elven army.
Although HE players it seem must be incompetant generals to warrant such a rule.....
I do hope it carries over to dark elves,witch elves striking in initiutive order against charging cavalry...
Reason to deploy them 7 wide then!
Yes I have 22 poisoned attacks and they are all going to be going before you get to hit me.

adreal
09-05-2007, 00:04
While it sounds like a cool idea I don't really like it, just that GW will probably not write it well meaning the the rule will be played wrong causeing for headaches. Also if HE get it, why don't WE, come on dryads stricking first would be a good thing ;)

RedShirt
09-05-2007, 00:11
I was at Games Day and from what Adam Troke was implying (hard to listen to him and Gav at the same time while they are both talking about 2 different things you want to hear) that HE warriors are suppose to be elite fighters who have been training and fighting for centuries yet the army has never lived up to this. He said that the new army will reflect this more. Swordmasters was the example he used since it even states in their fluff that they have spent their lives mastering their weapons & combat skills, but in game terms they've never really been as effective as they should be (as per the fluff)

Dargon
09-05-2007, 00:11
The rule is suppose to be strike in initiative order, I dont like it, a fix that takes away alot to the charge flee reactions.

It also was suppose to be models on foot only.For Elves, striking in initiative order IS striking first:D .

Common sense says there are sure to be conditions/exceptions attached - we can be pretty certain that the rule won't be as simple as "everything in the army always strikes 1st". When it comes to rumours, people always seem to report the highlights, and we never seem to hear about the fine print until the book is out.

It's like judging a story from the headline on the cover of a womens magazine - the headline is technically accurate, but the story inside is completely different from what the headline would lead you to believe.;)

The army-wide "strikes first" ability (whatever the final details may be) has been a persistant rumour for a long while now. I'm inclined to believe it will come to pass.


but in game terms they've never really been as effective as they should be (as per the fluff)lol - if the High Elves were as powerful as the general elven public believe the fluff implies, they'd be too expensive to field an army. There are two other Elven Races who also have centuries of experience, not to mention the Dwarfs who are portrayed as their equal in the fluff.

Just a thought...

Nightsong
09-05-2007, 00:27
lol - if the High Elves were as powerful as the general elven public believe the fluff implies, they'd be too expensive to field an army. There are two other Elven Races who also have centuries of experience, not to mention the Dwarfs who are portrayed as their equal in the fluff.

Just a thought...

Not to mention that Lizardmen practically live forever unless killed in combat and only get stronger and tougher with age.

asmodai_dark86
09-05-2007, 00:42
The strike first rule reflects much of the fluff of them so I wouldnt mind it, but I'd expect to see and appropriate price jack.

Yes you'll be striking first, yes you'll be the fastest army, but if your a prat then you'll get slapped silly. Thats exactly what I want to see now. Beginner armies, but also some armies that are clearly designed for an older level of gamer.

We'll wait and see

druchii7
09-05-2007, 01:32
I find it very overpowered....

two or three unots of swordmasters and you'll probabli win. and it doesn't suit WFB style

therisnosaurus
09-05-2007, 01:41
I can correlate this rumor, I've now heard it from several different sources, however I believe it may have a limiter. The units in a HE army that are currently described as underpowered are

-spearmen
-seaguard
-archers
-phoenix guard
-swordmasters (sometimes)

From what we hear, the 'strikes in initiative order- always' I believe will apply only to combat units on foot (and obviously not to white lions, they having great weapons) so your spearmen, PG, SG and possibly swordmasters will get it, but only them. When you look at it, this isn't particularly overpowering. Even given a substantial boost in fighting power and a cost drop, phoenix guard still won't be ridiculously powerful. They'll certainly be solid, particularly against basic enemy troops, but not overpowered. Spearmen will be nasty, admittedly, but when you look at the fact they're now competing with things like longbeards, eternal guard, ogre bulls, empire swordsmen that cost half their points, they won't be comparatively overpowered. If you charge them in the front with something like clanrats or orcs they will no longer lose most of the time. hit them with cavalry and they will still die. 15 attacks or no, you're still not going to get through many 2+ saves. As for swordmasters, well, you can always just shoot them a few times and win with combat resolution, or hit them with heavy cavalry or magic. This buff doesn't make them any more effective when they're charging or in subsequent rounds of combat, just when they GET charged. Anyone who plays swordmasters knows they're remarkably finniky and easy to flunk your combats with due to their single attack and low armor.

So don't be too worried about this, it won't unbalance the army much as far as I can tell

Unfortunately, these are the key infantry units of the army, making a feasible infantry army very difficult to maintain without

g0ddy
09-05-2007, 01:59
I would go as far as saying White Lions (and sword masters) would be the first to benefit from this rule...

I do not personally have a problem with any of it, perhaps I am biased but we will have to wait and see... I suggest everyone withholds their judgement on it. One cannot simply take it as a blanket rule and apply it in the current context of the game (which makes it seem rather daunting).

I think it gives a certain feel to the army... which should probably be developed (again in its current context it may seem excessive). They are looking to fill a ever widening gap that has appeared, and elf warrior with potentially centuries of experience in the field of battle, living/training/experiencing everything more than any human could ever hope to accomplish in thier own life.... Is it really fair that both "men" follow the same basic "rules" on the battlefield?

~g0ddy

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2007, 02:14
Hmm as a blanket "everything on foot strikes first" rule applied to the HE army as it is...it makes the army really quite dangerous.
Sure spearmen are only st3 but they'll have a tonne of attacks(and HE spearmen can outfight saurus warriors).

Things like white lions and swordsmasters get very scary as they will have a load of high strength,high weaponskill attacks to unload on their foes.
Strike first st5/6 attacks...thats really nasty.

Similarly fighty character's will be very nasty.
Armour of the gods,great weapon.
4 st7 strike first attacks......

At no additional cost the army suddenly gets a whole lot more dangerous,although it does make the infantry much more usable,if a little scary and "slightly" powerful......

If HE get it,for everyone,then DE will most certainly get it as they spend more time fighting than the HE do.
DE assasins should then become unfairly good at killing things.

stashman
09-05-2007, 02:41
Armour of the gods


Will probably don't exist anymore

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2007, 02:48
Come november we'll see what the HE book really ends up like.
Chances are I'll buy it and start a HE army(with Druchii and chaos influences of course).

If its a horribly broken and overpowered mishmash...who cares.
There will be no way to consider it worse than the HE army that already exists,which to me at least seems in no way broken.

g0ddy
09-05-2007, 03:01
It broken in a bad way.... just a different kind of "bad".

~g0ddy

Freenut
09-05-2007, 03:21
While it sounds like a cool idea I don't really like it, just that GW will probably not write it well meaning the the rule will be played wrong causeing for headaches. Also if HE get it, why don't WE, come on dryads stricking first would be a good thing ;)

Well dryads are not elves so...

Well if true this will go a long way toward making HE a powerful army. One of the guys at the local store and I did an experiment. We played a game with empire vs high elves using the current rules while keeping track of each move for each turn. Then played the same game move for move but using an older edition's combat table (not sure which). The combat tables were initiative based. The first game was minor victory for the HE. The second was a slaughter for the HE. There was only half a unit of empire knights left vs. a almost untouched high elf army. Now granted there has been a new edition sence then and that was only one experimant but vs most armies I belive this will make HE more than just competive. I can already hear other players crying fowl (well except for WE and DE players who will yell me next, and skaven and drawfs who will just blow the hell out of it). If true looks like I will be switching back to a mostly infantry army as opposed to an all cav. list.

Eldacar
09-05-2007, 04:13
It's like judging a story from the headline on the cover of a womens magazine - the headline is technically accurate, but the story inside is completely different from what the headline would lead you to believe.
The knowledge you seem to possess in regards to a womens magazine is quite frankly worrying, Dargon. ;)


I would go as far as saying White Lions (and sword masters) would be the first to benefit from this rule...
Look at it this way: if it's an army-wide special rule, then something else will end up being given to the SM and WL to ensure that they're sufficiently 'unique'.

gorenut
09-05-2007, 04:27
Probably an armywide rule that will only be applied to certain units with it labeled. Kind of like "ALIVE!" for undead. It's there, but only ghouls and bat swarms have that label.

Shimmergloom
09-05-2007, 04:43
ugh.

Great to see that empire and o&g are again the only 2 armies who don't get power creeped, while everyone else does again and again.

knightwire
09-05-2007, 04:50
It sounds pretty cool to me.

It could be as easy as wording it something like: Any High Elf on foot, not wielding a great weapon, will always fight combat in initiative order. Even when charged my the enemy, though the enemy does not lose it's charge bonuses.

That would exclude SM and WL units (as I bet they get their own brand of tweak.) and boost the effectiveness of the units currently left wanting. Spearelves may not retain the extra rank rule, you never know. I can't wait to see what it turns out to be.

Harry
09-05-2007, 06:35
The knowledge you seem to possess in regards to a womens magazine is quite frankly worrying, Dargon. ;)


You are assuming that Dargon is a man.
If he IS a woman its not worrying at all.:D

Hellebore
09-05-2007, 07:36
Seems pretty nasty though, especially for low I armies that rely on the charge to overcome their shortfall.

This gives the elves an armywide ability to ignore a core game mechanic, one that every other race is subject to.

It will be interesting to see how it affects other armies, how many will actually bother charging, if they get no incentive to do it...

Hellebore

Gabacho Mk.II
09-05-2007, 07:54
At no additional cost the army suddenly gets a whole lot more dangerous,although it does make the infantry much more usable,if a little scary and "slightly" powerful......


As fitting.

The High Elves are, given fluff, supposed to be 'the' race that continually battles Chaos in all corners of the Warhammer world, regularly maintains the premier army against all comers (lets not even talk about their navy), has scattered forts/citadels all around the known world, and always comes to the aid of the men when and where needed (SoC anyone?).

For all of that, I sure hope that they do indeed recieve some sort of rule that will indeed make the High Elves what they were destined to be: a powerful army that is capable of competing in various conditions with a myriad forms of strategies and fighting abilities.

"Strike First" for foot infantry is THE step in the right direction.

Hellebore
09-05-2007, 08:02
As fitting.

The High Elves are, given fluff, supposed to be 'the' race that continually battles Chaos in all corners of the Warhammer world, regularly maintains the premier army against all comers (lets not even talk about their navy), has scattered forts/citadels all around the known world, and always comes to the aid of the men when and where needed (SoC anyone?).

For all of that, I sure hope that they do indeed recieve some sort of rule that will indeed make the High Elves what they were destined to be: a powerful army that is capable of competing in various conditions with a myriad forms of strategies and fighting abilities.

"Strike First" for foot infantry is THE step in the right direction.

I think you'll find that the Lizardmen are 'the' ones that fight chaos - it is not part of the Old Ones' design, and thus must be eradicated. The elves don't always come to the aid of men, rather Teclis' obstinance and rhetoric beat them into submission. During the Great War, they only sent 3 wizards, hardly coming when needed.

If an always strike first rule is put in place for High elves, then that means it should also be in place for Dark Elves and Wood Elves - they are all physiologically identical.


Hellebore

Gabacho Mk.II
09-05-2007, 08:09
I think you'll find that the Lizardmen are 'the' ones that fight chaos - it is not part of the Old Ones' design, and thus must be eradicated. The elves don't always come to the aid of men, rather Teclis' obstinance and rhetoric beat them into submission. During the Great War, they only sent 3 wizards, hardly coming when needed.



You are right, they did only send 3 wizards... 3 very powerful wizards. But dont forget, the HE's were also fighting against a massive Chaos incursion of their own, so that must be factored in as well, no?





If an always strike first rule is put in place for High elves, then that means it should also be in place for Dark Elves and Wood Elves - they are all physiologically identical.



The Dark Elves and Wood Elvees are indeed very similar if not identical physiologically. However, this doesnt necessarily transfer to their fighting styles and/or abilities.

No matter the differences, given the fluff, High Elves should always be many levels above the fighting skill (on a one-to-one basis) of other Elves. In my belief, and what I would easily believe and argue is that HE's are quite possibly the greatest fighters in the Warhammer world, bar none. Thusly, I would love to see a rule that would add more color to their fighting traits.

Hellebore
09-05-2007, 08:19
I agree that professional HE units, like Swordmasters et al should be much better than everyone else, but their Core units are Militia, trained yes, but not 'professional'.

I think that WS and BS 4 and I 5 on a militiaman is over and above professional soldiery of the other races.

Dwarfs are BS3, and WS4. If the entire elven nation strikes first on the charge, I would really like to know how the Dwarfs managed to push them out of the Old World during the War of Vengeance.

Elves and dwarfs are supposed to be roughly equivalent in prowess - this isn't Tolkien where elves are just superior in every way (Tolkien had a bit of a hard on for elves). Swordmasters are of course supadoopa, that is their thing.

But the rest of the elven army isn't.

Hellebore

Ludaman
09-05-2007, 08:35
Personally i dont think this rule will be as game changing as everyone thinks... really with movement 5 if you play it right your elves usually charge people's infantry anyway, and against cavalry charges it might get ya one or 2 kills, but if the charge was gonna break ya (i.e. chaos knights, grail knights, sauraus cavarly) it's still probably going to break ya. If it was a toss up this will give the favor to the elves and im sure in the points they will pay for it. If everyone looks at empire and orcs they are very balanced armies. Im sure high elves will be the same.

On a side note i think they should have just given them a Phalanx rule "All spearelves receive the additional +1 to armour save for hand weapon and shield even though armed with spears " I think everyone who saw the 300 knows how well that phalanx worked

Asq_Dak
09-05-2007, 08:40
Perhaps this rule will be much like the hand weapon and shield rule, and only take effect if the unit is charged from the front (i.e. prepared for the charge)? I don't think that would cause too many issues.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-05-2007, 08:43
I'm not very keen on it. While I can see how it would obviously benefit an army like the one I planned to make, I don't like a blanket strike first rule.

The mechanism of charging and striking first is one of the building blocks of the game. If suddenly charging gives you nothing, you might as well stay in a defensive formation instead of trying to be aggressive, as if you charge, or they charge makes no difference.

Makes heroes a lot more scary too, as they will be real trouble to overcome in infantry units.


Edit: Assuming thats how it works, and it doesn't gets changed etc.

Sherlocko
09-05-2007, 09:09
Maybe it would work if it only worked to the front, or something along those lines..but I agree that it seem a bit weird to just have at is as an army special rule and not a unit special rule.

stashman
09-05-2007, 10:42
I would really like to know how the Dwarfs managed to push them out of the Old World during the War of Vengeance.

Hellebore



T4 Armoursave 3+

Hellebore
09-05-2007, 10:58
T4 Armoursave 3+

The 3+ armour save came down to the fact that dwarfen troops all wear heavy armour as standard, it's nothing to do with Dwarfen skill or ability. There is nothing stopping elven troops starting with heavy armour - in fact many people in this thread have advocated this for spearmen.

T4 is all well and good, but being killed before you can strike is quite major. If dwarfs couldn't get any advantage charging their elven enemies in the War of the Beard, then they would never have done it.

If there is no advantage to charging your foe, why would you? Why not just sit behind your shields and let your ranged weapons destroy them while they came to you.

The dwarfs never had black powder during the war of Vengeance, so it's not like the cannon was their secret weapon.

M5 WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A1 Ld8
M3 WS4 BS3 S3 T4 W1 I2 A1 Ld9

Those are some pretty disparate stats to begin with, add in always strike first and you've just encouraged dwarfs to go further gunline...


Hellebore

ekxw
09-05-2007, 11:01
just easy the elves have streght 3 ant thoguthnes 3, and light armor save so are useless, i dont think they will put them that rule but i will see correct to put the strike first rule against calvary units, on the spearmen.

if not they are useless, and near every unit in the new books are usefull.

Hellebore
09-05-2007, 11:09
So Empire spearmen are useful, because they are M4 WS3 BS3 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld7 - that's pathetic compared to an elf and you're saying the ELF is useless :wtf:

Sounds like wishlisting to me - the elves certainly have the most vocal crowd when it comes to modifications, all designed to make elves gods on the table.

At the moment elven spearmen are too expensive, but they put the price of dar elf spearmen down, to only 2 points more than a human with a spear - and look at the stat differences. I'd pay 2 points for that.

Elves do need boosting don't get me wrong, but a special rule that normally only appears on magic weapons and breaks core games mechanics is NOT what they need.

Hellebore

Brushmonkey
09-05-2007, 11:22
Every army has rules that break core mechanics. Get over it.

I also heard that ALL ELves are going to S9 and T8 as standard. Because I heard it on the internet it makes it true too.

Seriously, the amount of whining that goes on about things that aren't even in print yet is frankly sickening.

I know you are all geniuses and could write much better rules than everyone else, but give it a rest

Hellebore
09-05-2007, 11:29
Every army has rules that break core mechanics. Get over it.

I also heard that ALL ELves are going to S9 and T8 as standard. Because I heard it on the internet it makes it true too.

Seriously, the amount of whining that goes on about things that aren't even in print yet is frankly sickening.

I know you are all geniuses and could write much better rules than everyone else, but give it a rest

ER, ok. Thank's for the useful imput.

And yes, I am a genius and could write better rules (I write better rules all the time).:angel:
(not that it takes a genius to write better rules, false premises do not become you).

I am merely pointing out that such a rule is a fairly major departure from the game - it isn't breaking any old core mechanic, it is breaking one that is central to the method close combat is played.

I think the dwarfen ability to march even when within 8" of enemy units is one of the only truly core mechanic breakers out there, and it isn't particularly impressive ( a skink can't march when within 8" of enemy units, but that's ok, because they have M6, which is the march rate of a dwarf anyway).

The undead rule could be construed as mechanic breaking...

Anyway, I disagree that it is a good option (at least as an army wide special rule, single units yes, but not the whole army - effectively giving every character a 25pt magic item for free).

But what do I know, I'm just a genius that can write better rules.

Hellebore

Dargon
09-05-2007, 11:30
The knowledge you seem to possess in regards to a womens magazine is quite frankly worrying, Dargon.
You are assuming that Dargon is a man.
If he IS a woman its not worrying at all.
I think I'll exercise that American 5th ammendment thingy - "I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may incriminate me.":angel:

(I really had that one coming. I might as well have painted a bullseye on my forehead:p )

Just a thought...

Brushmonkey
09-05-2007, 11:38
ER, ok. Thank's for the useful imput.

And yes, I am a genius and could write better rules (I write better rules all the time).:angel:
(not that it takes a genius to write better rules, false premises do not become you).

I am merely pointing out that such a rule is a fairly major departure from the game - it isn't breaking any old core mechanic, it is breaking one that is central to the method close combat is played.

I think the dwarfen ability to march even when within 8" of enemy units is one of the only truly core mechanic breakers out there, and it isn't particularly impressive ( a skink can't march when within 8" of enemy units, but that's ok, because they have M6, which is the march rate of a dwarf anyway).

The undead rule could be construed as mechanic breaking...

Anyway, I disagree that it is a good option (at least as an army wide special rule, single units yes, but not the whole army - effectively giving every character a 25pt magic item for free).

But what do I know, I'm just a genius that can write better rules.

Hellebore

All armies have rules that break the core mechanics, a lot of them in major ways.

I'm just a little more willing to let the GW team get their job done before judging their work.

Dooglebug
09-05-2007, 12:40
I'm not going to comment on the rumour one way or another other than to say it's 'interesting' but I'm undecided. I would like to jump to the defence of High Elves though who seem to be coming under attack from certain quarters. I think its unecessary to argue about the contributions they have made to fighting chaos (esp. the isle of the dead) and helping men (council, schools of magic and military assistance)

With regards elven skill. I always think they should have more finnesse than a dwarf or a lizard man. In my view elves are about finnesse but go down easy. Saurus are big brutes who rely on instinct and ferocity but are a little slow and don't really have it in them to develop their skills much (those that do become the oldbloods). Dwarfs well they do what they can with what they've got (you've got to love 'em. They have time like elves to develop their skills but at 4ft its hard to be elegant and run rings around someone who wieghs half as much as you, doesn't have a beer belly to contend with and a beard down to their (oversized) feet to trip up on (I loved that old warhammer quest rule lol).

Bare stat comparisons between elves and dwarfs may seem to favour the elf with better Movement (when cavalry is on the field all infantry move at effectivley comparable rates, but it allows them to get an extra charge or two off), Ballistic Skill (only used for bows by archers and handguns get +1 to hit anyway), and Initiative (a minor bonus) but I think the dwarfs better toughness and leadership has a greater impact, ecspecially combined with their heavy armour for a 3+ save. Even with 3 ranks fighting and striking first (which they do most of the time against dwarfs anyway) the combat is liable to be a draw and with dwarfs higher leadership they are likely to hang around longer. And the dwarf is a couple of points cheaper. When the elves charge though they only fight with two ranks and dwarfs actually hold the advantage.

Intrepid Adventurer
09-05-2007, 12:54
^^ What he said.

Also, I'd like to point out that yes, perhaps the Elf players are wishing for their soldiers to be 'gods', but that it's not entire unfair for them to do so. Compared to the fluff the HE are wimps and fanboys often start overcompensating when their object of worship is not getting what is due to them, even if only in a small amount.

My biggest beef with the army as it is right now is lack of character. I like this 'strike first' rule, it gives the HE army something no one else has, ESPECIALLY the other Elf races. HE should get their own special rules, and the WE already do and have a characterful army.

Brushmonkey
09-05-2007, 13:14
I'm not going to comment on the rumour one way or another other than to say it's 'interesting' but I'm undecided.

I'm for the 'interesting' camp too. Its really too early to make a decision.

I'm really looking forward to the High Elf book. They were my first army 20 odd years ago and it was a shame to see the hash that GW made of the 6th Ed book. Hopefully, as has been said by others, they will gain some character of their own rather than "men with better stats and none of the cool stuff".

I hope they do something with the background too. The Tyrion & Teclis story has been printed word for word for three editions now....:eyebrows:
Perhaps they can do something other than fight Dark Elves.

Given that GW have made fine books for both WHFB and 40K in their new editions, i am quite hopeful for the future!:)

Eldacar
09-05-2007, 13:14
I think I'll exercise that American 5th ammendment thingy - "I refuse to answer on the grounds that it may incriminate me.":angel:
Even though last I checked, you don't live in America? :D

Arhalien
09-05-2007, 13:46
ugh.

Great to see that empire and o&g are again the only 2 armies who don't get power creeped, while everyone else does again and again.

In all fairness O+G and Empire had balanced books while High Elves are pretty weak atm.

That said, i'm not too sure about this; if it's just from the front and for some units only then it's ok, but still.... meh.

MadNinjaSkilz
09-05-2007, 14:47
Rather than just giving the HE a rule that allows them to strike first - or in initiative order - why not make a GENERAL RULE that everyone strikes in initiative order, even when charging?

Then weapons/charging could add bonuses (bonusi) to the initiative characterist. For example charging = a +5 bonus, great weapons -6, halberds +3 or something of like. Makes the stat useful, and armies that have payed for it all these years (elves) benifit from it.

Of course they would need to re-write the rules (again). I think this really would help.

TheWarSmith
09-05-2007, 14:54
It'd make sense for the strike first rule to apply to a number of units.

I've always thought it was stupid that charging dwarves would attack before elven spearmen defending.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-05-2007, 15:25
Rather than just giving the HE a rule that allows them to strike first - or in initiative order - why not make a GENERAL RULE that everyone strikes in initiative order, even when charging?

Then weapons/charging could add bonuses (bonusi) to the initiative characterist. For example charging = a +5 bonus, great weapons -6, halberds +3 or something of like. Makes the stat useful, and armies that have payed for it all these years (elves) benifit from it.

Of course they would need to re-write the rules (again). I think this really would help.


Because then you radically alters the mechanism of charging and close combat in general. At the least, you need to come up with another good bonus for charging, because if you don't get something fairly substantial for doing it, the game is going to be a lot more defensive. And it needs to be something good enough to make low int troops want to go after others too. If my unit X is going to get smacked around by your unit Y no matter if I charge or not, I'll most often option not to charge, and just position me for defence. Gives you less time to hit me, and makes my position better. So there needs to be an advantage to going out there and engage.

And of course then there is the whole logistic/balance/customer situation with completly rewriting every single army book and a very important part of the main rules.

shutupSHUTUP!!!
09-05-2007, 15:50
I agree with the finesse arguement, but sadly it's the logic that screwed them last edition. They paid for the stats that didn't count.

I think the striking first idea could work. You could balance swordmasters by making bolt throwers special instead of rare (and you'll want those rare slots to take advantage of less sucky lions and phoenix guard). Competition for special slots would balance the HE army I think.

TheWarSmith
09-05-2007, 16:18
Rather than just giving the HE a rule that allows them to strike first - or in initiative order - why not make a GENERAL RULE that everyone strikes in initiative order, even when charging?

Then weapons/charging could add bonuses (bonusi) to the initiative characterist. For example charging = a +5 bonus, great weapons -6, halberds +3 or something of like. Makes the stat useful, and armies that have payed for it all these years (elves) benifit from it.

Of course they would need to re-write the rules (again). I think this really would help.

Because saurus cav would suck HARD. There needs to be an advantage to charging, and I think that 40k's +1 attack, but strike at initiative is actually a good

MadNinjaSkilz
09-05-2007, 16:26
Ok, what I posted before were just examples, but I'll take it further...

Bonus to Int Stat
Charging +5
Cav with Lance + 2 (on charge)
Cav with Spear + 1 (on charge)
Inf with Halb + 1
Inf with Spear + 2

Great Weapon -4

Therefore, Saruri Cav on the charge would still get a +6 to their Int making it a total of 7, which would still allow to strike before most opponents.

Goblins on foot (I3) charging with spears would then become I10 again allowing them to strike before most troups - so getting the charge is still highly valuable.

Charging a unit in the flank or rear would allow you to strike first.

I do not see how this causes that big of change to the game.

TheWarSmith
09-05-2007, 16:32
I think your examples are a bit too high. I like the ideas of the spears/lances having initiative bonuses, as their length would be able land a hit before a swordsman could realistically hit.

I would notch down the basic charge bonus to +2 or 3. Then regular saurus on the charge would be I3 or 4, so they'd go same time or better against a lot of enemies. Obviously tie goes to the charger

mattqc
09-05-2007, 16:34
If dwarfs couldn't get any advantage charging their elven enemies in the War of the Beard, then they would never have done it.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and hazard that an M3 army with no cavalry and (at the time) no gyrocopters was not going to get the charge too often against an army loaded with M5 infantry, M8-9 cavalry, and fliers to begin with... ;)

Freenut
09-05-2007, 16:42
Ok, what I posted before were just examples, but I'll take it further...

Bonus to Int Stat
Charging +5
Cav with Lance + 2 (on charge)
Cav with Spear + 1 (on charge)
Inf with Halb + 1
Inf with Spear + 2

Great Weapon -4

Therefore, Saruri Cav on the charge would still get a +6 to their Int making it a total of 7, which would still allow to strike before most opponents.

Goblins on foot (I3) charging with spears would then become I10 again allowing them to strike before most troups - so getting the charge is still highly valuable.

Charging a unit in the flank or rear would allow you to strike first.

I do not see how this causes that big of change to the game.


Already done in a previous edition (3rd?). Not sure what the modifers were with each weapon but that is how it use to work. Not sure why they moved away from this.

Von Wibble
09-05-2007, 17:08
I'm not too sure that strikes first is really a broken rule at all. That said I agree with Arhelian's "meh"

Spearmen get 15 attacks - vs anything decent (i.e. equal points) you are looking at 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2-3 kills.

Then they get some of yours so the combat is fairly level. Meanwhile Swordmasters are special (competing with reavers, shadow warriors, dragon princes, chariots) and easily felled by missile fire, and Phoenix Gurad are an even more extreme example of this.

Otoh I don't like the fact that this is a rule that allows you to play sloppily. I play HE with a fair amount of infantry and the way I tend to win is through juducious fleeing and very caregful movement. 1 mistake is costly and imo this is apt for the character of the army - every lifeis valuable so don't throw it away. With strike first, against weak infantry I can now effectively have my High Elves run up to the enemy yelling something along the lines of "come on then", possibly lifting their tunics as the Scots used to. Next thing they'll be intimidating the enemy by having the first rank behead themselves!

Not an image I ever consider (or want to consider) High Elves having.

To me the problem is on image - spears are supposed to be militia, yet are priced in line with elite troops.

Either they should be changed in background to be well trained professional soldiery, in which case some rules to justify a cost of 10-11 pts are needed.

Or they should simply be cut to 9pts with citizen levy and left at that.

Arhalien
09-05-2007, 17:39
My problem with spearelves (which I've elaborated before... Oh God this is already going wrong!) is that they're supposed to be defensive troops; the anvil to the hammer of the cavalry. How does fight in three ranks support that? They can get more attacks,and surely that makes them more offensive than defensive!

I shall now go and behead myself for joining in with the wishlisting

Ender Shadowkin
09-05-2007, 17:44
Dwarfs are BS3, and WS4. If the entire elven nation strikes first on the charge, I would really like to know how the Dwarfs managed to push them out of the Old World during the War of Vengeance.



Well that's a pretty silly comparison. Getting charged by dwarves is embarising period. There will be no difference in Dwarf vs Elf matchup. If anything it will make elves much less likely to flee as a charge reaction (there is no honor in being a dead elf ;) ) and get into combat situations that they really shouldn't be in.

As someone who plays HE a lot. You learn that your heroes and units will go down in any sort of protracted fight. So you have to overwhelm and beat your opponent in the first round period. Getting charged is still going to be bad news as you are not setting the terms with your fragile troops and you will only have one unit invlovled for a couple combats, I like to run giant units of Spearmen (4x8)(when I use spear elves that is) and I don't know how many times I have rolled heaps of dice and gotten 1 or no wounds with my S3 attacks, particularly vs anything that is T4. That big block of spearmen can eassily get tied up and whittle to nothing by 4 saurus warriors (HE plus sheild).

And remember they are going to be playtesting this list for freekin ever. Rumors started before christmas . . . and the recent army have all been fair and ballanced, this one they are even taking more time with. You never really know how it will all play out until you plays some games with THE ENTIRE BOOK look at the top of the tournament stats at the end of 2008. Somehow I doubt it will be all HE.

I'm excited about seaguard, stand and shoot then strike first, that may make them a solid unit again. Spear elves get a little boost, still probably an average core choice compared to Saurus, dwarf warrirors, eternal guard, and many others. Sword masters may get really scary, so I'm worried there. Perhaps they will go up in points. I would hate to see every one shift to all Swordmasters in their specials.

And I'm a little worried that this will reduce some tactical flexibility as you will mostly just move up your infantry, but is that any different than armies with actual anvil untis? I would still rather take a charge with 20 dwarf warriors than 20 spear elves any day of the week, higher T better save, better ld, better combat charectors. So I think this looks like an exciting boost to HE infantry. Makes me wonder what the DE are going to get as an army wide rule, you know it will be different (and evil moo hoo ha ha)

Ender Shadowkin
09-05-2007, 17:46
I shall now go and behead myself for joining in with the wishlisting

Hmm now there is a wishlist. . . :evilgrin:

And Wishlisting! WISHLISTING! Why did no one contact me? :wtf:

Ender Shadowkin
09-05-2007, 17:53
Rather than just giving the HE a rule that allows them to strike first - or in initiative order - why not make a GENERAL RULE that everyone strikes in initiative order, even when charging?

.

That is exactly the way the rules worked in the 3rd. They changed it to make manuvering and charging more important, and it was good. Unfortunatly this was pretty hard on the elves.

At first they overcompensated with many many special rules but those were dialed way back in the 6th (rightly so). This strike first rule (for infantry?) seams to be a good compramise to bring the high elves back in line to their history and original ballance relative to their state line. The other elf lists are compensated in other ways. WE with forest spirits, and DW with Monsters and Psychology. But I expect the DE to get a little more too as their book rolls around.

Arhalien
09-05-2007, 17:59
Erm, Triple post ftw? ;) :p

Ender Shadowkin
09-05-2007, 18:02
Erm, Triple post ftw? ;) :p


But I have so many more to get in before I catch up to your post count :eyebrows: I'm doing the best I can ;)

Actuall I just cant stop myslef from replying to posts as I read them before I get to the end of the thread

Arhalien
09-05-2007, 18:03
Actuall I just cant stop myslef from replying to posts as I read them before I get to the end of the thread

It's called the multiquote function :p

Firestorm Falcon
09-05-2007, 18:24
I can't resist (sorry Arhalien I really am).

WARNING: This post contains a wishlist.

1. spear elves should count as being armed with pikes, except they can still use shields.
2. Elf Elites get ithmir armour (4+ save)
3. Swordmasters get S5 and killing blow with 2 attacks each.
4. White lions are scouts and skirmishers (with great weapons!)
5. Archers get ithmir arrows (don't ask) -2 to saves.
6. We get a magic weapon that doesn't suck ass through a straw.
7. The provincial honours make one unit of that type a core choice.
8. Bring back eltherion in his grim Griffin riding lvl1 mage form.

Fhoen
09-05-2007, 19:03
I can't resist (sorry Arhalien I really am).

WARNING: This post contains a wishlist.

1. spear elves should count as being armed with pikes, except they can still use shields.
2. Elf Elites get ithmir armour (4+ save)
3. Swordmasters get S5 and killing blow with 2 attacks each.
4. White lions are scouts and skirmishers (with great weapons!)
5. Archers get ithmir arrows (don't ask) -2 to saves.
6. We get a magic weapon that doesn't suck ass through a straw.
7. The provincial honours make one unit of that type a core choice.
8. Bring back eltherion in his grim Griffin riding lvl1 mage form.

like it ... could be overpowered tho :o

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2007, 19:29
HE spearmen "suck" because
1.They cost about 30% more than DE spearmen.
2.Silverhelms are core

Its not down to them not being any good,they can outfight saurus warriors(not something that can be said for most armies core troops)
They just cost too much for people to want to take them instead of silverhelms(or silverhelms cost too little that spearmen are never a worthwhile conisderation).

MadNinjaSkilz
09-05-2007, 19:30
Ok - I realize that it was done in third ed. but that does not mean you cannot bring it back - it makes sense and works.

The only problem is it makes the game a little more complex, which the GW has stated it doesn't like - as kids 9-13 have problems with difficult rules (not my opinion, I teach grade 6 and think children at these ages can hand very complex tasks).

Darkspear
09-05-2007, 19:32
Well that's a pretty silly comparison. Getting charged by dwarves is embarising period. There will be no difference in Dwarf vs Elf matchup. If anything it will make elves much less likely to flee as a charge reaction (there is no honor in being a dead elf ;) ) and get into combat situations that they really shouldn't be in.

As someone who plays HE a lot. You learn that your heroes and units will go down in any sort of protracted fight. So you have to overwhelm and beat your opponent in the first round period. Getting charged is still going to be bad news as you are not setting the terms with your fragile troops and you will only have one unit invlovled for a couple combats, I like to run giant units of Spearmen (4x8)(when I use spear elves that is) and I don't know how many times I have rolled heaps of dice and gotten 1 or no wounds with my S3 attacks, particularly vs anything that is T4. That big block of spearmen can eassily get tied up and whittle to nothing by 4 saurus warriors (HE plus sheild).

And remember they are going to be playtesting this list for freekin ever. Rumors started before christmas . . . and the recent army have all been fair and ballanced, this one they are even taking more time with. You never really know how it will all play out until you plays some games with THE ENTIRE BOOK look at the top of the tournament stats at the end of 2008. Somehow I doubt it will be all HE.

I'm excited about seaguard, stand and shoot then strike first, that may make them a solid unit again. Spear elves get a little boost, still probably an average core choice compared to Saurus, dwarf warrirors, eternal guard, and many others. Sword masters may get really scary, so I'm worried there. Perhaps they will go up in points. I would hate to see every one shift to all Swordmasters in their specials.

And I'm a little worried that this will reduce some tactical flexibility as you will mostly just move up your infantry, but is that any different than armies with actual anvil untis? I would still rather take a charge with 20 dwarf warriors than 20 spear elves any day of the week, higher T better save, better ld, better combat charectors. So I think this looks like an exciting boost to HE infantry. Makes me wonder what the DE are going to get as an army wide rule, you know it will be different (and evil moo hoo ha ha)

I do not know why people claim high elf spearmen sux and die to knights. I do remember seeing my cold one knights losing combats when i charge Asur spearmen.

Ok let's be fair and use a scientific method. Let's assume 5 silver helms (with full command) charge 20 spearelves.

No of wounds by silver helms = 6 x 0.5 x 5/6 + 5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 2/3 = 20/6 = 3.333 (let's assume 4 spearmen died)

No of wounds by spears = 12 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 1/6 = 0.5 wounds (let's round this off to 0)

Spear Elves still win. You can try this with other knight units and the result is the same. the only exceptions are chaos chosen and brets(who should win anyway)

Ender Shadowkin
09-05-2007, 19:45
Ok - I realize that it was done in third ed. but that does not mean you cannot bring it back - it makes sense and works.

.

Ok but Two points. A. they changed it for a reason and kept if for 4 more version of the rules. B. Somehting like that would need to be a new version of the rules 8th edition and that is 6 years out, as well as requiing re play ballancing of every army. So its not a bad idea, just unrealistic to test and implement when there are so many other more worth while projects. So a spot fix in an army book for the exact problem seams to be more appropriate to me.


I do not know why people claim high elf spearmen sux and die to knights. I do remember seeing my cold one knights losing combats when i charge Asur spearmen.

Ok let's be fair and use a scientific method. Let's assume 5 silver helms (with full command) charge 20 spearelves.

No of wounds by silver helms = 6 x 0.5 x 5/6 + 5 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 2/3 = 20/6 = 3.333 (let's assume 4 spearmen died)

No of wounds by spears = 12 x 0.5 x 0.5 x 1/6 = 0.5 wounds (let's round this off to 0)

Spear Elves still win. You can try this with other knight units and the result is the same. the only exceptions are chaos chosen and brets(who should win anyway)

I hate getting drawn into this debate again , but the point cost of your spearleves is near double that of the siver helms, your not comparing apples to oranges. And your example proved that the spears don't do anything, they would have been better using HW+shield for the added armor save. Thus, a minimum sized cavalry unit charging into any fully ranked up infantry is not the best idea, no surprise there. That includes charging into a goblin unit at a fraction of the cost of the High Elf spearmen. Really you just showed how overpriced spear elves are.


PS fine a multiquote, are you happy now Arhalien ;)

theunwantedbeing
09-05-2007, 19:49
In a battle you very rarely get combats where both sides have exactly equal amounts of points spent on the unit.

What he proved was that HE spearmen can quite easily survive a charge from most knights,and seeing as HE spearmen are the cheapest foot troop available to a HE army thats really quite useful.

Brinnyunlimited
09-05-2007, 20:36
If this IS a rule, it's a very weak move on GWs part. "People complain Elves are underpowered, just stick an 'always strike first' rule on all their infantry, that'll shut 'em up."
I'd much rather see something more interesting added to High Elves. Losing the advantage of getting the charge on your opponent completely shakes up the way WFB is played and it would make palying Elven armies incredibly boring. If there's no point in getting the charge on a unit of Elves, you may as well just sit back and shoot at them.

Lordi
09-05-2007, 20:37
Any news on which models will get new one's? The only one I know for sure is the plastic Lord ( sprue allready posted on the site )

I guess:

* new spearmen
* new archers
* plastic Swordmasters
* new White Lions
* plastic dragon
* plastic Dragon Princeses

What do you think?

Arhalien
09-05-2007, 21:22
I;m not even going to bother trying to derail this wishlisting. It's just getting tiresome.

ps. Paulus, pm me if you wish to discuss 'tactics' for this thread, I may reconsider the above opinion ;) ;) *nudge nudge, wink wink* ;)

Harry
09-05-2007, 21:22
Spearmen get 15 attacks - vs anything decent (i.e. equal points) you are looking at 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2-3 kills.

Surely you rank up 8 wide.
Giving you 21 attacks against any 5 wide unit on 20mm bases and 24 attacks on a 5 wide unit on 25 mm bases.

Now you are looking at 12 hits 6 wounds 3-4 kills.

Not much left of that enemy front rank to hit back!:D



@Arhalien. I refer you to my suggestion on the other High Elf wish list thread for a plan.

knightwire
09-05-2007, 21:48
I;m not even going to bother trying to derail this wishlisting. It's just getting tiresome.


Arhalien, I love you buddy, but it's actually you chaps complaining about the wish-listers that's wasting more time and space in this thread than the actual wish-listers themselves. Most of the posts are discussing the 'Strikes First' implications. ;)



In a battle you very rarely get combats where both sides have exactly equal amounts of points spent on the unit.

What he proved was that HE spearmen can quite easily survive a charge from most knights,and seeing as HE spearmen are the cheapest foot troop available to a HE army thats really quite useful.

I guess I'm playing the wrong people. When my spearmen get charged by knights, it's generally more along the lines of 12 Black Knights or 12 Boar Boars or 15-20 Goblin Wolf Riders... all with full command. What regular infantry block can't stop a basic frontal charge by five silverhelms? :D

We of course will have to look at the whole package of changes, but I still think this sounds interesting.

Arhalien
09-05-2007, 21:54
Arhalien, I love you buddy, but it's actually you chaps complaining about the wish-listers that's wasting more time and space in this thread than the actual wish-listers themselves. Most of the posts are discussing the 'Strikes First' implications. ;)


It's taken you that long to work it out? :eek: :p

Nightsong
10-05-2007, 00:24
Is this the wish list thread? I hope I am in the right place.

So...I would like to have a fear causing chariot pulled by white lions wielding great axes that also strike first. And while I am at it, I would also like to know if anyone has confirmed the rumor about the Arhalien special character?

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2007, 00:31
haha.....yeah that seems very fair
Do you want it to have toughness 10 and a 1+ armour save and a 2+ ward save and do 10D st10 impact hits as well?
And have 50" movement rate?

....wishlists are silly,HE players just ask for silly things.....

Baindread
10-05-2007, 00:36
My wishlist for HE:
Make them brutally overpowered, so much in fact that it will severly shake the very foundations of the game. So much it will not be redone for at least 20 years. Then make DE slightly less overpowered. What is HE without constant bickering from their distant cousins? And while they are at it, make them even better when facing Chaos. Kinda like Teclis versus Belakor.

PS. I don't play HE, DE or Chaos.

g0ddy
10-05-2007, 00:42
.....If an always strike first rule is put in place for High elves, then that means it should also be in place for Dark Elves and Wood Elves - they are all physiologically identical.......


Perhaps, however what the designers have in store for Dark elves is yet to be seen... In terms of Woodelves, they instead have an extensive list of shooting based special rules do they not?


I think well find extensive special rules for all the elf races (eventually) with Highelves being somewhat more generic while the other two are more specialized?


~g0ddy

Nightsong
10-05-2007, 01:05
haha.....yeah that seems very fair
Do you want it to have toughness 10 and a 1+ armour save and a 2+ ward save and do 10D st10 impact hits as well?
And have 50" movement rate?

....wishlists are silly,HE players just ask for silly things.....

Toughness 10 is good, but the 1+ armour save is a little weak. I like the idea of 10d6 st10 impact hits, but that would be OTT, I think that 6d6 st10 impact hits would be better balanced but still fit with the fluff....

Hellebore
10-05-2007, 01:31
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and hazard that an M3 army with no cavalry and (at the time) no gyrocopters was not going to get the charge too often against an army loaded with M5 infantry, M8-9 cavalry, and fliers to begin with... ;)

Lol. :D

However, in that particular War, the Elves were on the defensive, and the Dwarfs on the offensive.

The Dwarfs pushed the elves back all the way to Marienburg (Tor Alessi?). The dwarfs fought a dynamic war, very unlike them. It wasn't them protecting their holds from attack, it was them actually invading another land, and winning.

Gorbad's post exemplified what I'm talking about - low I armies know the only way to get around the handicap of low I is to get the charge, giving them at least 1 round of combat before the higher I goes first.

If you are fighting an entire army that goes before you, even if you charge WHY would you? It effectively discourages dwarfs and orcs et al from bothering charging - making them static (and especially the dwarfs an imobile gunline).

It also makes the I value of elves useless except when striking against someone who carries a magic item that allows them to strike first...

In fact, this special rule effectively negates the Master Rune of Swiftness - because even a dwarf lord has a lower I value than an ordinary elf...

Hellebore

Dargon
10-05-2007, 02:04
Also, I'd like to point out that yes, perhaps the Elf players are wishing for their soldiers to be 'gods', but that it's not entire unfair for them to do so. Compared to the fluff the HE are wimps and fanboys often start overcompensating when their object of worship is not getting what is due to them, even if only in a small amount.This pretty much can be said of almost every race - they all get talked up to godlike proportions in their background (I even remember a small entertaining piece that described a Goblin Hero defeating a High Elf Hero;) ).


My biggest beef with the army as it is right now is lack of character. I like this 'strike first' rule, it gives the HE army something no one else has, ESPECIALLY the other Elf races. HE should get their own special rules, and the WE already do and have a characterful army.For my part, I fully agree with this... and I place the blame squarely on the background. Other races have very clear strengths and weaknesses described in their background, however, the magnificently vast High Elf background (detailed in the 4th & 5th Edition books) portrays the Asur as everything to everyone. The High Elves are poorly defined and you are free to interpret them almost any way you please.

About the only flaws that exists in the background of the Asur is their Arrogance (hardly a flaw and tempered by both Finubar and Teclis seemingly lacking this trait), and thier tendancy to put politics ahead of better judgement (detailed in the original story of Eltharion) - we all know how favoured Intrigue at Court is:p .

The Asur are long overdue for an army-wide rule that helps to define their own unique identity and playing style. Personally, I think it's a major step in the right direction, and a good indication that GW might be finally thinking about how the High Elves are suppose to play as an Army, rather than just balancing out a random selection of completely unique units.

Will this rule destroy the High Elves and the game mechanics - it's way too early to tell. Almost every post so far has been making some pretty huge assumptions about the effects this rule will have. We don't yet know what conditions will be placed on the rule, and we don't yet know what current High Elf abilities will be kept or lost to combine with this rule. Put simply, we don't yet have nearly enough information to even think about speculating on what this rumoured rule will do to the High Elves and the Game.

Given that GW have (apparently) will apparently have been playtesting the book for almost an entire year by the time the book goes to the publishers, and the fanatical responses they have recieved ever since the the last High Elf book was released, I have faith that GW are going to take their time and do the High Elves right this time.

Now for my wishlist...:D

Just a thought...

Shimmergloom
10-05-2007, 03:12
Seems pretty nasty though, especially for low I armies that rely on the charge to overcome their shortfall.

This gives the elves an armywide ability to ignore a core game mechanic, one that every other race is subject to.

It will be interesting to see how it affects other armies, how many will actually bother charging, if they get no incentive to do it...

Hellebore

And it completely nullifies the greenskin special rule Waaagh! which is suppose to let them get the charge against faster enemies once and a while.

There's no reason to try it against high elves when it can only hurt you instead of help you.

This rule if true and armywide is even worse than cold-blooded and the blessing.

Vilicate
10-05-2007, 03:16
And it completely nullifies the greenskin special rule Waaagh! which is suppose to let them get the charge against faster enemies once and a while.

There's no reason to try it against high elves when it can only hurt you instead of help you.

This rule if true and armywide is even worse than cold-blooded and the blessing.

They still get the benefits of choppas. With decent WS, and T, the greenskins should survive with some attacks back on the elves, especially if they're black orcs or big 'uns.

Shimmergloom
10-05-2007, 03:56
Not all greenskins have choppas and T4. And orcs have WS3 and goblins WS2 that's average and below avg. Elves will always hit them on 3's as it is.

Black orcs and big'uns are all but useless and will be shot apart by reapers and magic before they get anywhere anyway.


I'm not too sure that strikes first is really a broken rule at all. That said I agree with Arhelian's "meh"

Spearmen get 15 attacks - vs anything decent (i.e. equal points) you are looking at 8 hits, 4 wounds, 2-3 kills.

Then they get some of yours so the combat is fairly level.

Again, why would anyone even charge spearelves now? This is so stupid.

I charge with my orc block. 20, full command, shields for the orcs, same for the elves, but they have their compulsory spears.

He gets 16 attacks w/champ. 10 hits, 3 wounds unsaved, 1.5 saved. 1.5 wounds done to the orcs, before the orcs can even strike back.

I don't charge with my orcs and let them charge me. They have 11 attacks

7 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound. The orcs are better off not charging!

Tell me that's not stupid and I'll call you an elf.

Caligula
10-05-2007, 04:09
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the army-wide strikes first thing. More likely, it applies to certain units, or units with a certain special designation in their unit entry.

I'm certainly not going to flip out and go on about this, however. If it by some horrible twist of fate turns out to be entirely true, then okay, word up. If in the more likely event this is just a bit of misinterpreted/lost in translation scrap of info, good enough. Rumours are rumours, and I take them as such. I don't believe this one is true in its' entireity, but that's as passionate as I'll get on the subject.

In any event, it's food for thought and I'm thankful for any scraps thrown to me.

Xyon
10-05-2007, 05:09
Well, you're all forgetting the point of charging, multiple charges! sure you cant always get a combined charge into the flank and front (or rear even). I doubt this rule is going to be a blanket army wide rule, and even if I was facing off against a unit with such a rule, I'd still rather charge them if I can also get a flank in it aswell.

Oh, and in that example of 20 spearmen charged by 5 silverhelms, it would be a tie not the spearmen winning, dont forget the silverhelms banner bonus (you said full command), but with 1 more kill or 1 less kill on either end it would push it to a loss or a win, but it does no good to compair these things. And I wont hear any complaining from empire players about not having special rules when they have attachments that can flank charge units that hit their parent unit in the same turn, breaking game mechanics-wha?

Either way, each army has its own thing, I dont think this "stikes in intiative order" rule will be overpowering, HE need a boost, everyone in my gaming group agrees about that, with all their playtesting, I'm sure GW will make it balanced.

Caligula
10-05-2007, 05:33
Xyon, your sensible and detached response has just made me a happy young man. I agree 100% with your outlook on this matter, so thanks for the sober reaction. I find there is altogether too much outrage and fury on the forums sometimes...and yeah, I'm occasionally guilty of that myself.

Seriously though, just as Xyon said, I'm not even close to being worried that the High Elves will be somehow overpowered in their upcoming incarnation, especially not at this point on the timeline. I'm fairly confident that they'll be given an adequate "boost", recieve the changes they need, and be a well-designed and great army.

Am I blindly confident in the GW designer's abilities? Not at all! However, I've personally been liking what's been coming out for the last while, and have no reason to expect the High Elves to be of lesser quality.

Gabacho Mk.II
10-05-2007, 05:38
Maybe it would work if it only worked to the front, or something along those lines...


That is exactly what how the rule will read... but I digress...


[charging HE units on the side or rear will not afford H Elves the ability to strike first, due to their 'training'...]

Gabacho Mk.II
10-05-2007, 05:42
I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the army-wide strikes first thing. More likely, it applies to certain units, or units with a certain special designation in their unit entry.




When it was originally pre-tested, it was done so withOUT any points values assigned for the HElven units. Now, I dont know exactly what the final points cost will be for Elves such as Spearmen and such, but since there was little info creeping out of the minute info/rumors concerning the 'first-strike' rule, I would assume that there are balancing factors and issues that have yet to be addressed by the designers, pre-release]

Harry
10-05-2007, 06:35
if the High Elves were as powerful as the general elven public believe the fluff implies, they'd be too expensive to field an army.

And maybe this is how they could balance things out a bit. Make them very powerful but very expensive.
So you got small, elite armies.


The strike first rule reflects much of the fluff of them so I wouldnt mind it, but I'd expect to see and appropriate price jack.

Yes you'll be striking first, yes you'll be the fastest army, but if your a prat then you'll get slapped silly. Thats exactly what I want to see now. Beginner armies, but also some armies that are clearly designed for an older level of gamer.

We'll wait and see

Asmodi is wise.


Hmm as a blanket "everything on foot strikes first" rule applied to the HE army as it is...it makes the army really quite dangerous.
Sure spearmen are only st3 but they'll have a tonne of attacks(and HE spearmen can outfight saurus warriors).

Things like white lions and swordsmasters get very scary as they will have a load of high strength,high weaponskill attacks to unload on their foes.
Strike first st5/6 attacks...thats really nasty.

Similarly fighty character's will be very nasty.
Armour of the gods,great weapon.
4 st7 strike first attacks......

At no additional cost the army suddenly gets a whole lot more dangerous,although it does make the infantry much more usable,if a little scary and "slightly" powerful......

If HE get it,for everyone,then DE will most certainly get it as they spend more time fighting than the HE do.
DE assasins should then become unfairly good at killing things.

At no additional cost the army would be very dangerous.
But what if they were to jack up the prices, as others suggest, so that you could only afford 10 swordmasters?
They start to look a lot more fragile now. Vunerable to missile fire. Vunerable to out numbering. Yes they will take out your front rank completely but you might still win the combat with rank bonus and flank attacks.
If they were expensive enough they would be outnumbered by all armies. in some cases several units to one.
As they should be.


If an always strike first rule is put in place for High elves, then that means it should also be in place for Dark Elves and Wood Elves - they are all physiologically identical.
Hellebore

But not psycologically identical. Speed in combat, striking first is not just about physical speed. It is about skill. Displacement, (avoiding getting hit) Attack au fer, (Engaging the opponents blade), feint, riposte, (Counter attack) Etc. These skills can be taught to the disiplined mind through regular training.


I agree that professional HE units, like Swordmasters et al should be much better than everyone else, but their Core units are Militia, trained yes, but not 'professional'.

I think that WS and BS 4 and I 5 on a militiaman is over and above professional soldiery of the other races.
Hellebore

Empire militia is a rag tag bunch of fellows dragged out of there local ale house by the shout of "Who wants to go put the wind up some orcs" silent pause "Theres a shilling for any man that does... and free pickings for all" huge cheer.

The High Elf Militia on the other hand are diverted from there normal tasks, sewing and crochet that sort of thing, and are trained on a regular basis by profesional soldiers until , over time, they have the skills of professionals. So that they are ready, when called upon.

Lets say it takes 5 years (Full time) to train a hunan soldier to 'professional' level. At a month a year training for a High Elf he is still trained in 50 years or so. He is in his prime!


The mechanism of charging and striking first is one of the building blocks of the game. If suddenly charging gives you nothing, you might as well stay in a defensive formation instead of trying to be aggressive, as if you charge, or they charge makes no difference.

Except if you stay in defensive formation awaiting the charge you will get shot to buggery by High Elf archery. You have no choice except to engage them or they will just rain arrows on you until you are no more.



If this IS a rule, it's a very weak move on GWs part. "People complain Elves are underpowered, just stick an 'always strike first' rule on all their infantry, that'll shut 'em up."
I'd much rather see something more interesting added to High Elves. Losing the advantage of getting the charge on your opponent completely shakes up the way WFB is played and it would make palying Elven armies incredibly boring. If there's no point in getting the charge on a unit of Elves, you may as well just sit back and shoot at them.

For instance? (Your suggestions for an army rule?)
Thats your plan. Sit back and shoot it out with the best missile troops with the longest range in the Warhammer world.


My wishlist for HE:
Make them brutally overpowered, so much in fact that it will severly shake the very foundations of the game. So much it will not be redone for at least 20 years.

Of all the wishlists I think yours is closest to what we will get.


The Asur are long overdue for an army-wide rule that helps to define their own unique identity and playing style. Personally, I think it's a major step in the right direction, and a good indication that GW might be finally thinking about how the High Elves are suppose to play as an Army, rather than just balancing out a random selection of completely unique units.

Will this rule destroy the High Elves and the game mechanics - it's way too early to tell. Almost every post so far has been making some pretty huge assumptions about the effects this rule will have. We don't yet know what conditions will be placed on the rule, and we don't yet know what current High Elf abilities will be kept or lost to combine with this rule. Put simply, we don't yet have nearly enough information to even think about speculating on what this rumoured rule will do to the High Elves and the Game.

Given that GW have (apparently) will apparently have been playtesting the book for almost an entire year by the time the book goes to the publishers, and the fanatical responses they have recieved ever since the the last High Elf book was released, I have faith that GW are going to take their time and do the High Elves right this time.


Dargon is also wise.


The orcs are better off not charging!

Tell me that's not stupid and I'll call you an elf.

No you right. Its not stupid. Orcs are far better off standing there and getting shot to buggery by High elf archery. Yes I know...I'm an Elf.


Well, you're all forgetting the point of charging, multiple charges! sure you cant always get a combined charge into the flank and front (or rear even). I doubt this rule is going to be a blanket army wide rule, and even if I was facing off against a unit with such a rule, I'd still rather charge them if I can also get a flank in it aswell.


There you go.
There is always a flank (or rear even) somewhere.


As someone who plays HE a lot. You learn that your heroes and units will go down in any sort of protracted fight. So you have to overwhelm and beat your opponent in the first round period. Getting charged is still going to be bad news as you are not setting the terms with your fragile troops and you will only have one unit invlovled for a couple combats, I like to run giant units of Spearmen (4x8)(when I use spear elves that is) and I don't know how many times I have rolled heaps of dice and gotten 1 or no wounds with my S3 attacks, particularly vs anything that is T4. That big block of spearmen can eassily get tied up and whittle to nothing by 4 saurus warriors (HE plus sheild).

And remember they are going to be playtesting this list for freekin ever. Rumors started before christmas . . . and the recent army have all been fair and ballanced, this one they are even taking more time with. You never really know how it will all play out until you plays some games with THE ENTIRE BOOK look at the top of the tournament stats at the end of 2008. Somehow I doubt it will be all HE.


Here speaks the voice of experience.

You (like Dargon) are also correct when you say they have been playtesting for 'freekin ever'. Even now they are currently trying to pick the the most outrageous, beardy, messed up lists they can think of to see if they can bend the list to breaking point.

Hellebore
10-05-2007, 06:53
At no additional cost the army would be very dangerous.
But what if they were to jack up the prices, as others suggest, so that you could only afford 10 swordmasters?
They start to look a lot more fragile now. Vunerable to missile fire. Vunerable to out numbering. Yes they will take out your front rank completely but you might still win the combat with rank bonus and flank attacks.
If they were expensive enough they would be outnumbered by all armies. in some cases several units to one.
As they should be.


I think there does come a point though when it gets a little ridiculous (not that it necessarily will in this army book). Basically the points cost is there as another balancing factor - but unless the background makes something rare then in 'reality' the points cost is artificial. In this instance elves are simply superior, and the price for this in a balanced game is expensive models. In the background though, although the elves certainly aren't breeding like rabbits, they certainly aren't dying out. Thus in a battle they would just have blatantly superior troops.

The dwarfs too aren't on the verge of extinction, but their population can't be much bigger than the elves themselves. Again I just come back to the War of Vengeance - when both were at the height of their power. If elven troops are just THAT much more superior, how did the dwarfs ever stand a chance without outnumbering them by quite a margin (something that isn't supported by the background).



But not psycologically identical. Speed in combat, striking first is not just about physical speed. It is about skill. Displacement, (avoiding getting hit)Attack au fer, (Engaging the opponents blade), feint, riposte, (Counter attack) Etc. These skills can be taught to the disiplined mind through regular training.


This is a good point, but I've always gotten the vibe that of all the elven nations, the Dark Elves were the fastest in terms of psychology (always on edge).



Empire militia is a rag tag bunch of fellows dragged out of there local ale house by the shout of "Who wants to go put the wind up some orcs then" silent pause "Theres a shilling for any man that does and free pickings for all" huge cheer.

The High Elf Militia on the other hand are diverted from there normal tasks, sewing and crochet that sort of thing and are trained on a regular basis by profesional soldiers until , over time they have the skills of professionals. So that they are ready, when called upon.

Lets say it takes 5 years (Full time) to train a hunan soldier to 'professional' level. at a montha year training training for a High Elf he is still trained in 50 years. He is in his prime!


Oh I'm not contesting the level of training that an elf gets, rather that the stats a spearman has now is more than adequate to represent the training they do get. If untrained militia are WS and BS3, then trained militia at 4 is no stretch. Basically I think that the stats speak enough about their prowess without adding all sorts of extra rules on top.



Except if you stay in defensive formation awaiting the charge you will get shot to buggery by High elf archery. You have no choice except to engage them or they will just rain arrows on you until you are no more.


In this instance I'm pretty sure a dwarfen gunline could easily outshoot the elves, and as moving dwarfs toward the elves only puts them in close range, because charging gives no benefit, they would just hide behind their high T and shields.

Of course this comes back to how the dwarfs dealt with the elves when they didn't have black powder...

Hellebore

Talis
10-05-2007, 07:02
*blinks*

Am I the only Elf in the room thanking my lucky Lileath that Hellebore isn't designing the next HE book?

Gabacho Mk.II
10-05-2007, 07:10
Oh my my.

People, please have some heart in what GW is doing with the HE new armylist.



As stated above in a number of other posts/threads: charging against T3 S3 troops who hit *first* doesnt equate to a "total loss of game mechanics" concerning WFB. Please dont be so short-sighted.

This rule has been put under pressure and tested for quite a whiles now (I cant tell you how long, since there have been so many playtesters assigned to the project), and the reflective points cost for the army as a whole havent been cast in stone yet. Now, I dont know exactly when the HE book will be out, but rest assured that the HE armybook will NOT make the HE army an invincible foe,... that title still belongs to Skaven.:D

Harry
10-05-2007, 07:35
I think there does come a point though when it gets a little ridiculous (not that it necessarily will in this army book). Basically the points cost is there as another balancing factor - but unless the background makes something rare then in 'reality' the points cost is artificial. In this instance elves are simply superior, and the price for this in a balanced game is expensive models. In the background though, although the elves certainly aren't breeding like rabbits, they certainly aren't dying out. Thus in a battle they would just have blatantly superior troops.

The dwarfs too aren't on the verge of extinction, but their population can't be much bigger than the elves themselves. Again I just come back to the War of Vengeance - when both were at the height of their power. If elven troops are just THAT much more superior, how did the dwarfs ever stand a chance without outnumbering them by quite a margin (something that isn't supported by the background).



This is a good point, but I've always gotten the vibe that of all the elven nations, the Dark Elves were the fastest in terms of psychology (always on edge).



Oh I'm not contesting the level of training that an elf gets, rather that the stats a spearman has now is more than adequate to represent the training they do get. If untrained militia are WS and BS3, then trained militia at 4 is no stretch. Basically I think that the stats speak enough about their prowess without adding all sorts of extra rules on top.



In this instance I'm pretty sure a dwarfen gunline could easily outshoot the elves, and as moving dwarfs toward the elves only puts them in close range, because charging gives no benefit, they would just hide behind their high T and shields.

Of course this comes back to how the dwarfs dealt with the elves when they didn't have black powder...

Hellebore

They are not breeding swordmasters and Dragon princes like rabbits certainly. Just how many of Pheonix Guards are there to protect one little flame? There number of actual White Lions sets a natural limit on the number White Lions as there simply are not enough cloaks to go around.

If numbers were equal I can only assume the Dwarves got the upper hand by sheer bloody mindedness as they should have been out shot and out fought. In battle superior bloody mindedness often wins the day. If everything else is equal the ones that want it the most tend to come out on top. How does the underdog ever win at sport. How did the Aussies ever win the ashes?

A straight fight between High Elf and Dark Elf should be too close to call.
However this is a game. A game in which the games developers are trying to create distinctive and characterful armies. I suspect the games developers will be trying to focus more on what the essence of an army is all about. I remember Gav saying something about Orcs being more brutal and Goblins more 'tricksy'. So..High Elves better trained more controled. Dark Elves more...dark? More evil? More angry? More manevolent?

Militia stats are fine but the empire milita get two attacks. If we leave it at that it does not seem fair either.
Does it not make sence that the Elven militia would strike first with there huge long pointy spears before the Empire milita man could fight his way past his impailed collegues to get his two attacks in.
If I was an empire militia man I would think twice before charging a unit of ranked up Elven spearmen. Doesn't that 'feel' right to you.
On the other hand attacking them from the rear once engaged by "them as is getting paid more than a poxy shilling" I am up for. Might even make it back to the ale house to spend it!

The Dwarven and Empire gunline will remain a challenge. You have to get close enough to use your handguns and some of your artillery. If the High Elves bring enough archers??? Concentrate there archery on the longest ranged weapons first???...not sure who wins that shoot out.
Thunderers are 14 points each right? Elven archers are 10 points???
"He who throws the most dice wins" A Dwarf cannon is 90 points. Can 9 High Elf archers take out a cannon crew before it gets them?

Xyon
10-05-2007, 07:49
12 points for the archers, but yeah harry has some good points, however war machines have a nasty habit of eating shots for the crew.

Isha
10-05-2007, 07:54
O my elven goddess ... if what is Harry writing is the step GW has taken in designin the HE list i might as well start crying for joy and stop looking with a sad eye at the third edition army list :)
I love it!!!!!!!! It's just so plainly heroic :) And doomed :) And elvish!!!! Standing alone against the hordes of lesser races .... Pass me the tissue please.

Hellebore
10-05-2007, 08:05
*blinks*

Am I the only Elf in the room thanking my lucky Lileath that Hellebore isn't designing the next HE book?

If I designed the army books I would do it to fit the background completely, and ignore points values completely.

The background to me, does not give any credence to such a pervasive ability of the elves, and thus I would not put it in.

Harry is right when he says it's all about game, I just wish that balance didn't require over abstraction. But that's just me.

I wouldn't take handguns against the elves, sorry Harry I shouldn't have used the term gunline. A crossbow is just as good, and cheaper. And has the same range as a longbow (unless they changed that too).

I'm disappointed with the rule not for any perception of beardiness, but because it seems like pure rules abstraction in order to 'balance' an army, rather than something that fits the 'reality' of the army.

However I think this rule is going to affect the T3 armies more than the T4 ones - empire and bretonnia are going to be taking more casualties from charging than they will from being charged.

I'm in no way claiming the designers have broken the army, or it will be cheese or the sky is made of cheese, I'm sure it will be very balanced (their capacity for this has increased markedly over the last few codicies).

It just 'feels' artificial, rather than in character.

Hellebore

silverstu
10-05-2007, 09:05
The dwarfs too aren't on the verge of extinction, but their population can't be much bigger than the elves themselves. Again I just come back to the War of Vengeance - when both were at the height of their power. If elven troops are just THAT much more superior, how did the dwarfs ever stand a chance without outnumbering them by quite a margin (something that isn't supported by the background).




Of course this comes back to how the dwarfs dealt with the elves when they didn't have black powder...

Hellebore

The dwarfs dealt with/will deal with elves by being more resilient than those willowy wand wavers. I'm not that worried about not getting to strike first- I don't rely on my dwarfs getting a first hit- i rely on them being able to take it on the chin and then grind thier oppponents into the dirt- as Harry says- sheer bloody mindedness. So this means that a fight betwen a dwarfs and high elves would be pretty close- speed trying to edge-out toughess- sounds about right to me. As far as the rumours thus far suggest there will not be a lot of heavy armour in the HE infantry- so they have to get their hits in or their t3 will be found wanting.
Sounds like HE will have an edge to so make the most of and their oppenents wll be challenged to egt past it. Sounds like a fun competitive game to me...:D [the best games are always closely fought don't you think?].
Sounds like HE have found their form-excellent. Interesting to see how the est of the list will shape this idea.
Oh and hellebore mate don't worrry too much about beardiness- this rule gives the HE serious edge but there are ways round it- alot of t3 armies can out number high elves. it mkes HE more of a challenge to fight against- as they should be.

Harry
10-05-2007, 09:18
O my elven goddess ... if what is Harry writing is the step GW has taken in designin the HE list i might as well start crying for joy and stop looking with a sad eye at the third edition army list :)
I love it!!!!!!!! It's just so plainly heroic :) And doomed :) And elvish!!!! Standing alone against the hordes of lesser races .... Pass me the tissue please.

Everyone understands I was just thinking out loud.

Just responding to the comments made in this thread. Trying to imagine how I might reslove the issues raised if I were a games developer.

My comments were not based on what may or may not actually be in the book.
(Which of course is still not finished so could all still change).

static grass
10-05-2007, 09:30
The Dwarfs pushed the elves back all the way to Marienburg (Tor Alessi?). The dwarfs fought a dynamic war, very unlike them. It wasn't them protecting their holds from attack, it was them actually invading another land, and winning.


I find this a common misconception of dwarfs. Dwarfs are extremely tough, which is extremely important for marching they can probably out march anyone. Sure they have movement 3 and elves 5 so we know who will be winning all the sprint races. The movement of armies is a very different statistic from how quick you can walk. Dwarfs are also pretty keen on marching out and facing the enemy, the SoC for example. Obviously dwarfs know when to shut the gates and say "go away" and do so but that is rather the exception than the norm.

I think it is slightly premature to discuss how balanced the HE book is based on one rumour. We don't even know if it is true and even if it is true we don't know how it will work and it will be costed. The only thing we do know is that Harry said archers are 10 points :) Cheeky bugger.

My guess is that the HE will get a boost to all the units that need it. The book itself will be balanced against the recent army books and that HE players will be spoiled for choice in terms of effectiveness and theme. Basically it will be like the Eldar Codex.

Harry
10-05-2007, 09:37
The only thing we do know is that Harry said archers are 10 points :) Cheeky bugger.

The book itself will be balanced against the recent army books and that HE players will be spoiled for choice in terms of effectiveness and theme.

That was a guess. I couldn't remember the points. I didn't have the book in front of me. I have not played High Elves since the last book. My encylopedic memory let me down. Don't read too much into this. It was a mistake on my part not a stealth snippet.

The second part I think is bang on.

static grass
10-05-2007, 10:33
Just teasing you.

Brinnyunlimited
10-05-2007, 11:00
For instance? (Your suggestions for an army rule?)

That isn't for me to say. This isn't a wishlisting thread.



Thats your plan. Sit back and shoot it out with the best missile troops with the longest range in the Warhammer world.

Well unless Archers are getting a huge overhaul of their current rules, High Elves are nowhere near the 'best missile troops' in the game. Wood Elves, Dark Elves, Empire, Dwarves, Skaven could all easily outshoot High Elves and Archers are so over-priced that you can't field them in a large enough quantity to significantly worry horde or T4 armies. Still, we'll see what the new book brings.

Dimitrios
10-05-2007, 11:56
I think with the always shoot in two ranks situation we could see bigger units of archers comming out of high elves. This would make them unique for sure and be able to concentrate lot of fire power in one area of the battlefield. Would also mean that they could hold up in combat a little more as they could reform prior to being charged, getting ranks, and still do a 10 shot stand and shoot reaction WOHOOO.

As far as HE being the best shooters, they aren't mean to be. That place is reserved for WE. HE are the magic users and tacticians of the elf world. With UBERLY cheap magic items and arguabley one of the best lores that first niche is easy to fill.

The second though is where they lacked. With only the mounted units and flying units being of any value. So hopefully we will see HE become more like dwarfes in the sence that even their core units rival the special units of other races in armour and special rules.

enyoss
10-05-2007, 12:28
But what if they were to jack up the prices, as others suggest, so that you could only afford 10 swordmasters?


I'd be screwed, because I've got 60 odd kicking around :).

Seriously though, I'm now really interested to see what they do with the list. I'll withhold all judgement until the book arrives... GW wouldn't listen to my comments anyway, and even if they did it's too late in the day :).

Cheers for the rumours to all those who've contributed.

enyoss

theunwantedbeing
10-05-2007, 13:13
Just thought of the most perfect rule for HE armies.

No change in the armylist whatsoever.
But...when a HE unit reaches 25% of their original number they become unbreakable and gain a 2+ re-rollable ward save.

Think about it.
HE in any fight simply die horribly and offer less resistance to the enemy than oh I dunno....light rain.
Then when they are just about to get wiped off the face of the planet they go super saiyan and crush their opponents with ease.

similar thing happeend with teclis fighting be'lakor.
His 300 swordsmasters got butchered,so did his army and right at the last second he went all super saiyan and atom bombed the deamons.

It fits the fluff perfectly!
Plus its totally balanced as you'll get 50% of the point of the HE before they get to use the rule.

^_^

Dargon
10-05-2007, 15:13
And maybe this is how they could balance things out a bit. Make them very powerful but very expensive.
So you got small, elite armies.I sincerely hope not:( .

This is perhaps my own personal greatest fear for the High Elves - that GW will give in to this popular mentality of them being a small elite army of supersoldiers. Let the Asrai have the "small, elite army" bit. When it comes to the Asur, I want to be able to field an army.;)

The Asur don't have to be supermen and cost the earth to be "elite". Each Dwarf is suppose to be every bit as "elite" as any Asur. If the average Dwarf can be purchased for 8-10pts and still be "elite", then surely GW can find a way to do the same for the basic troops of the Asur:eyebrows: ? The current costs are already very prohibitive for affording full Asur units of any decent size (at least for infantry), the last thing I want to see is the costs of any of these troops increase any further to accomodate new abilities.

Hopefully this won't be an issue when the book eventually makes it's appearance.

Just a thought...

Caligula
10-05-2007, 15:44
I'm with you, Dargon. No, the High Elves aren't a numerous race, and their numbers are surely dwindling...they're one of the dying races, what would you expect to the contrary? However, despite their low numbers, the High Elves are most certainly still able to muster an army, an ARMY to go to war with. They aren't typically as numerous as, say, an Empire army I don't believe, but...yeah, when fielding High Elves, I want to be able to field an army, not a 40K rabble of superheroes.

Here's hoping, and I'm pretty confident those of us who appreciate the High Elf army don't have anything to worry about in this regard.

Drakemaster
10-05-2007, 16:26
Seeing as the esteemed Harry seems to be monitoring this thread fairly closely, I thought I'd get in a cheeky request related to a previous rumour he posted that didn't make it into the Watchman rumour article... the return of an old unit from one of the previous versions of the HE list. Any further information on this? Is this out of date now? Or are you unwilling/unable to give further details ;)

gorenut
10-05-2007, 17:18
Hah.. I guess this wouldn't really be a HE RUMOR thread without it turning into a wishlist/debate.

Darkspear
10-05-2007, 17:35
I guess I'm playing the wrong people. When my spearmen get charged by knights, it's generally more along the lines of 12 Black Knights or 12 Boar Boars or 15-20 Goblin Wolf Riders... all with full command. What regular infantry block can't stop a basic frontal charge by five silverhelms? :D

We of course will have to look at the whole package of changes, but I still think this sounds interesting.

This is strange. Because units of 10 - 12 cavalry generally do not perform as you pay so much more points just to get an extra rank. I would rather split the unit into two. The only cavalry that benefits from massive units are fear causing dudes. Anyway this is a question of gaming tactics already.

Harry
10-05-2007, 17:39
Seeing as the esteemed Harry seems to be monitoring this thread fairly closely, I thought I'd get in a cheeky request related to a previous rumour he posted that didn't make it into the Watchman rumour article... the return of an old unit from one of the previous versions of the HE list. Any further information on this? Is this out of date now? Or are you unwilling/unable to give further details ;)

That was never my rumour. That was one from Hastings.
I had no idea what he was talking about at the time.
I maintained it was his impish sence of humour.
He maintained that it was what he had heard.
You will have to ask him what he was talking about.

Darkspear
10-05-2007, 17:59
The way Harry defends the new rule seems to imply (to me) that these "strike first" thing is true to a large extent. While I do not like the rule I hope that at least the rule only applies to

1) frontage combats
2) THe following units - Spearmen, Swordmasters, PHonenix guards. I do not want to see archers strike first!!!

Ender Shadowkin
10-05-2007, 18:08
That was never my rumour. That was one from Hastings.
I had no idea what he was talking about at the time.
I maintained it was his impish sence of humour.
He maintained that it was what he had heard.
You will have to ask him what he was talking about.

Well ironically I think I was the very fist person to misquote Harry on this one, and he has since been misquoted numerous times. I bet you keep the text ready to cut and paste into the inevitable resurfacing.

So sorry Harry, I feel bad about it, well sort of bad, I also feel mildly amused :angel:



I'd be screwed, because I've got 60 odd kicking around :).

Seriously though, I'm now really interested to see what they do with the list.

Hey enyoss is back!, Good to hear from you :)


Well, I'm starting to get excited again too, but I'm sure it will cycle back and forth a few more times (the fall Ahhhh) . I am stating to picture blocks of spear elves fielded as frequently as dryads in a WE army. HE players leading with an infantry block as an anvil to setup flank charges. Imagine the horror of a HE player being able to choose to play a basic tactical warhammer game like everyone else, geez that is so unfair ;)

Personally I think all troops with spears should strike first when charged, but I'm happy to see the trend start with HE.

erion
10-05-2007, 18:09
I was thinking sort of the same, darkspear.

I can't really see them allowing all three ranks of spearmen (assuming they retain the 'fight in 3 ranks when charged' rule) to strike first.

I'll add a disclaimer that I have absolutely no knowledge of the rule, but I think it should only apply to charges from the front and it should only allow the first rank (in cases like the spearmen) to strike first.

That said, I wouldn't expect the rule to be 'All High elf models strike first', but more like 'All High Elf models in the front rank of a unit strike in initiative order when charged from the front.'

This would allow for super-duper high-initiative models to still be worth the points you pay for them to hit first, and allow tactically flexible armies that can get charges from the flank and rear to still be worst their salt.

Arhalien
10-05-2007, 18:27
Right, time for me to move with the times a bit. I got so fed up with nothing turning up in the old threads that I've become cynical about it and keep going on about wishlisting. However, now that we're in a position in which we are likely to get rumours it seems that my opinion should change, and that I should join in.

So, serious Arhalien from now on! :eek:

My opinion on this matter is changing. For spearelves I think it would be great as it makes their fight in three ranks ability seem far more defensive. As it currently stands I don't see how it reflects their role as a solid defensive block; the anvil to the hammer of the cavalry and elite units. This is generally achieved throughheavy armour, but as High Elves don't seem to be likely to be getting this then I think the I order thing would work; it allows the spearelves to bring all their attacks to bear, probably getting at least 1 more kill, giving them an extra pt to CR while at the same time blunting the enemy's attacks, better allowing them to hold and set up the flank charge for the silver-helms.
It would also be pretty fearsome on LSG, especially if they get the shoot in 2ranks rule that is rumoured for the archers; 7x3, 14 stand and shoot shots followed by 21 attacks in I order? Yes please :D
I also understand it on swordmasters; they are supposed to be good after all.

However, for White Lions? For Phoenix Guard? For cavalry? For archers! :confused: No thanks, that doesn't work for me.

Shimmergloom
10-05-2007, 19:58
If sea guard get to stand and shoot with 14 shots then hit you 21 times before you can ever strike back, then there's going to be no one who wants to play vs high elves, other than skaven players.

Harry
10-05-2007, 20:06
The way Harry defends the new rule seems to imply (to me) that these "strike first" thing is true to a large extent.


The 'strike first'/'strike in initiative order' was one of the only decent rumours (other than Lion chariots) to come out of the first High Elf thread.

I have since played a number of games based on it as the rule to try and establish its impact on the list.

(Yes this is hugely sad and a bit pointless, no pun intended, not knowing the other changes and the points of units! but as they are not going to make me a playtester what choice have I got. Although maybe they should consider it. If they made me sign a NDA I would have to stop writting rumours!)

However, as others have said it is not quite as game breaking as you might think. Although, as has also been suggested, it does change your army selection and the playing style a bit.

I have just got comfortable with it is all. It seems to make sence to me that the most skilled 'swordsman' (Spearmen, etc) in a fight would strike first.

Tarian
10-05-2007, 20:07
Ah yes, since LSG are probably still using S3 bows with S3 spears. The horror! Seriously, S3 does 1) Little against high T armies 2) Even less against high AS armies, and 3) Nothing against things like Brettonian Grail Knights who have a higher T, Great AS and a ward save. If you're lucky, you might pick off one before the unit gets overrun.

Shimmergloom
10-05-2007, 20:14
Oh! Well thankfullly everyone else is T4 with tons of armor and there's no T3 lightly armored troops out there!

Shimmergloom
10-05-2007, 20:25
So 14 shots at 20 black orcs charging. Let's say during a WAAAGH! cause this little rule makes the waaagh! useless, so we're adding insult to injury.

7 hits, 2 wound. 4+ armor save vs shooting if you gave them shields. 1 dead black orc, rank lost. 21 attacks hitting first. 10.5 hits. 3 wounds. 5+ save, save 1. 2 dead black orcs.

3 strike back with 2 choppas, desperately trying to do something. 3 hits, 2.61wounds.

CR is 6 for the black orcs. 6 for the elves.

That is game changing. You can't say it's not a big impact on the game, cause every scenerio will have elves winning combats and drawing combats, that they should get stomped in, cause they sat back and were charged instead of being aggressive.

You want your gunlines and combat both at no cost.

Ender Shadowkin
10-05-2007, 21:55
So 14 shots at 20 black orcs charging. Let's say during a WAAAGH! cause this little rule makes the waaagh! useless, so we're adding insult to injury.

7 hits, 2 wound. 4+ armor save vs shooting if you gave them shields. 1 dead black orc, rank lost. 21 attacks hitting first. 10.5 hits. 3 wounds. 5+ save, save 1. 2 dead black orcs.

3 strike back with 2 choppas, desperately trying to do something. 3 hits, 2.61wounds.

CR is 6 for the black orcs. 6 for the elves.

That is game changing. You can't say it's not a big impact on the game, cause every scenerio will have elves winning combats and drawing combats, that they should get stomped in, cause they sat back and were charged instead of being aggressive.

You want your gunlines and combat both at no cost.

few points, the Waagh will frequently get you close before you charge, negating a stand and shoot reaction. If so rank bonus would be intact (but should be anyway see below).

Stand and shoot kills do not help you with combat rez, nor do they keep models in the front rank from fighting back (so you would still get 4)

You negelected champions, this plus the extra guy above which would push the black orc kill closer to 4.

Kitted out sea Guard currently cost 16 points a pop, if your even attempting to make a fair comparison, Black Orcs will definetly have outnumber, even with an unlikely moderate sea guard point drop. Plus, they should have enough extra models to make sure the one odd kill from a stand and shoot reaction would not bust a rank.

This makes the black orcs winning typically by around 4. Sea guard likely break test on 4 . Game altering? Not even consider how much nastier (and cheaper) orc heros are than HE in combat. If I was Waaghed by black orcs I would still flee witht the Sea guard and counter charge with Chariots, Cav, and Swordmasters (at least 2 of those at once or why bother ;) ) . No difference in my game.

Sea Guard would be good flank protectors, and would own light cav and such. But don;t units that cost that much already own light cav, while not being nearly as vulnerable to missile fire? Every seen one unit of Salmanders torch up 10-20 elves a turn? Fall like harvested wheat to Dark riders with X-bows or skinks? I have (too many times) and yes I'm still very very bitter about it ;)

static grass
10-05-2007, 21:59
Okay a friend of mine once told me that "GW want the HE to fight like they do in LotR movie". I didn't really think much of it at the time other than "okay cool I suppose". Whaaat he was getting at I see is that the HE get charged by the orcs at the start of the movie and yet the HE still strike first. One obvious cravat being that only the first rank do so with their handweapons.

I am pretty sure this will be a charge reaction that you have to choose to use rather than "stand and shoot" followed by "slap about". So for most units it's "slapping about" and shooty units will probably still shoot first.

it going to be no worse than being charged by a chariot and unit at the same time.

Kah-thurak
10-05-2007, 22:02
I doubt that Seaguard would become a worthwhile unit with this rule... they would still be overpriced. Normal Spearelves would become more interesting, espeacially if it also applies to characters deployed in the Unit. Phoenixguard would still be nonsense, if not changed otherwise, and Swordmasters would still suffer from the same problems they have now. Getting the charge isn't the issue if you have Eagles.

To make HE-Inf competitive in a tournament environment there would have to be more changes than that...

Vilicate
10-05-2007, 22:07
So 14 shots at 20 black orcs charging. Let's say during a WAAAGH! cause this little rule makes the waaagh! useless, so we're adding insult to injury.

7 hits, 2 wound. 4+ armor save vs shooting if you gave them shields. 1 dead black orc, rank lost. 21 attacks hitting first. 10.5 hits. 3 wounds. 5+ save, save 1. 2 dead black orcs.

3 strike back with 2 choppas, desperately trying to do something. 3 hits, 2.61wounds.

CR is 6 for the black orcs. 6 for the elves.

That is game changing. You can't say it's not a big impact on the game, cause every scenerio will have elves winning combats and drawing combats, that they should get stomped in, cause they sat back and were charged instead of being aggressive.

You want your gunlines and combat both at no cost.

Two things shimmergloom -

As Ender already pointed out, you're not adding in the kills from the champion, who almost kills 2 himself (due to WS5). Or are they a waste of points?

Also, why the hell are you running 5 wide with Black Orcs? They get a lot of really good melee attacks, so why would to waste so many of them in ranks?

Those are my beefs with your example.

EvC
10-05-2007, 22:15
Wouldn't it be amazing if the Always Strikes First rule applied only to Swords (Including Greatswords)...

Dargon
10-05-2007, 23:37
Hah.. I guess this wouldn't really be a HE RUMOR thread without it turning into a wishlist/debate.Barely two days old and already 7 pages - with only a single High Elf rumour as the topic.

Seems to be coming along nicely.:D

Just a thought...

Ninsaneja
10-05-2007, 23:50
While I don't see HE always striking first or in initiative order to be totally game-breaking, it will certainly change the game a little. It'd certainly see more ranged attacks against HE, black powder, crossbows, and especially mortars.

Again, the Dark Elves had better receive a nasty special rule in case this is true, coz it makes their current hatred rule almost totally useless! OPf course, striking in I order is ok for DE against HE because they have the same initiative.

exsulis
10-05-2007, 23:56
Um, hatred is kinda big. Rerolls are always nice when your whole army has it.

Harry
11-05-2007, 00:07
Barely two days old and already 7 pages - with only a single High Elf rumour as the topic.

Seems to be coming along nicely.:D

Just a thought...

LOL. Are there more High Elf players or are they just more insane?

Or is this going to happen with each race as they are up next?

Heretic Burner
11-05-2007, 00:15
Well if it is true there is absolutely no point whatsoever playing HE with O&G, they will outclass the greenskins in every phase of the game! An absolutely horrible rule if true as Shimmergloom's example proves quite easily.

Even if the numbers worked out and it didn't prove so overwhelming in combat, it doesn't take the fact it trivializes one of the most important aspects of the game. Charging is supposed to be a massive bonus, its why we play with intricate baits, flee reactions, flanking maneuvers, etc. Are GW really trying to reduce the game to the complexity of a coin flip?

Talis
11-05-2007, 00:34
The One True progression of High Elf rumor threads:


I. Someone comes along and excitedly posts something a friend has told them about a book which hasn't been finished yet.


II. Some excited young High Elves begin to celebrate, a monument to the god "Trokean" is proposed, the new elven god of No Longer Hating Core Game Mechanics. The Elves begin to send prayers to their new God.


III. Soon a "fluff" council is called by the High Elf elders, wherein there is much scratching of chins and shaking of heads, and then the formal beating of Arhalien.


IV. Emissaries from other lands arrive and are outraged by the lavish new carpeting in the shrine of Trokean. They attempt to discredit the new god with the use of extremely shady math ("orcish math?") They have a foreign conception of "the rules" which seems to evade the illuminations of Elven logic.


V. When diplomacy fails they push the smaller, skinnier (t3) Elves around a bit and tease them about their rediculous obsession with "special rules" "armour saves" and "decent core units." The much more skillful and quick witted Elves would fight back, but oddly the emissaries all seem to have a lot of special rules...


VI. Finally someone posts some silly utter nonsense, and the thread fades away into the annals of Elven history. (Which at present can only be bought in the abridged version, unless you make a trip to the Bay-of-E.)



Not that I want this thread to fade away. More grapes for Trokean!

Dargon
11-05-2007, 00:51
LOL. Are there more High Elf players or are they just more insane?

Or is this going to happen with each race as they are up next?In my experience, it seems to be a uniquely High Elf/Eldar thing, and not limited to Rumours:D .

Players of Asur and Eldar armies seem to be insanely passionate people with alot of strong (and often contrasting) views about their army. Any Asur/Eldar thread seems to invariably expand at an exponential rate - no matter what the topic:D . Any Dwarf thread in contrast is usually lucky to breach 3 pages;) .

It likely won't be quite as bad with the Vampire Counts... however you can't have a Dark Elf topic without comparisons to their mirror counterpart the Asur, so we can probably expect Druchii rumour threads to skyrocket as both Druchii and Asur players clash in a heavy debate about who gets the better deal.

It's more fun than the stockmarket:D !

Just a thought...

Eldroth
11-05-2007, 04:23
Talis, you've drawn me out of my armchair ambivalence towards posting in these wishlist threads... if only to congratulate you on a fine post.

I sniggered, I chortled, I smirked. Very good. :p

Gabacho Mk.II
11-05-2007, 04:34
That said, I wouldn't expect the rule to be 'All High elf models strike first', but more like 'All High Elf models in the front rank of a unit strike in initiative order when charged from the front.'



That is exactly how I read the proposed rule.




And, it did apply to all High Elf infantry units (foot only), which, in my opinion, applies to archers, Phoenix Guard, Swordmasters etc.,... unless GW attaches a line indicating otherwise.

People, again, this HE trait was only in the testing stage last I heard about it, but I strongly suspect that it will indeed be added to the armylist when the book finally comes out.


[*edit - The points costs for the models are probably the highest guarded secret in GW right now. Dont ask why, as you are bound to walk around in circles without being able to take a bathroom break.]

Olith
11-05-2007, 05:06
In my experience, it seems to be a uniquely High Elf/Eldar thing, and not limited to Rumours:D .

Players of Asur and Eldar armies seem to be insanely passionate people with alot of strong (and often contrasting) views about their army. Any Asur/Eldar thread seems to invariably expand at an exponential rate - no matter what the topic:D . Any Dwarf thread in contrast is usually lucky to breach 3 pages;) .

I'm not sure about the Eldar as I don't read their threads, but with the High Elves alot of it comes from the fact GW haven't really defined (high) elves like other races are. Alot of gamers have different views based on all sorts of fantasy literature and other media that portray elves in all kinds of light, and often GW's elven background allows these varied views of high elves to be supported, yet they never have been in the rules. Add in some things that made a number of choices pointless and others staple meaning people's collections and the fluff didn't match the list this time around, and things like I@C, with a popular army that appeals to a wide range of gamer (good guys, who are better than humans "at everything", who doesn't want that?) and this is the fallout.

I imagine the Eldar suffered from something similar, a great ancient powerful race that fight with combined arms, but the rules system and army list don't support the background. Which is something else I didn't touch on, as in warhammer there is less benefit to being a agile, dexterous, well trained soldier than to other aspects like strength and toughness Hence the whole strike first thing.

shabbadoo
11-05-2007, 08:43
Sounds like the designers have seen that one scene from The Fellowship of the Ring too many times. You know, the one with the line of elven warriors swinging their swords just before the hordes of Mordor hit their lines.

silverstu
11-05-2007, 09:04
Sounds like the designers have seen that one scene from The Fellowship of the Ring too many times. You know, the one with the line of elven warriors swinging their swords just before the hordes of Mordor hit their lines.

Interestingly this was how Harry said he would like to see the high elves work..a coincidence? Or perhaps did Harry "bump" into adam troke at bugmans, perhaps buy him a drink... slip something into said drink and then sit him in front of looped Lotr footage for an hour whispering"this is how we want the high elves to fight..you know you want to.."?
are there strange, dark forces at work here??
Has Harry been getting tips from Derren Brown...?
And did he ever win the pie bet with Hastings..?
:p

Giladis
11-05-2007, 09:09
Salutations fellow gamers

I can tell you all on good authority that the list at its current stage is very balanced with a hick-up here and there. What players should look forward to is the varaity of equal army lists the book will produce. Infantry units have been exceptionaly well balanced to their mounted counterparts and internaly.

If you want to go all infantry you will no longer be shooting yourself into the foot. The list as it is allows something that last didn't have. You can mould your force from a Semi-herohammer small elite based strike force if you spend to much stuff on shiny stuff or it can play as a semi horde force. A very balanced infantry force based on core with a little rare and special support can reach a solid 100 models mark for a 2K list.

Cavalry has been tiered and now each unit performs a duty more suited to their social rank. What gladens my heart most is that all cavalry, all infantry, gunline, all out attack, balanced are all viable combinations and have roughly equaly success rate. Special rules have been more streamlined to work with the background description of the units and to represent that fiel on the tabletop.

I am certain that at first there will be an uproar of broken as it has been with almost every new book (2 steam tanks anyone?) but as games will be played people will see that it is one of the more balanced creations produced by the design team.


Yours sincerely


Admiral Giladis of the Elthin Arvan admirality expeditionary force

Kah-thurak
11-05-2007, 09:18
Salutations fellow gamers

I can tell you all on good authority that the list at its current stage is very balanced with a hick-up here and there. What players should look forward to is the varaity of equal army lists the book will produce. Infantry units have been exceptionaly well balanced to their mounted counterparts and internaly.

If you want to go all infantry you will no longer be shooting yourself into the foot. The list as it is allows something that last didn't have. You can mould your force from a Semi-herohammer small elite based strike force if you spend to much stuff on shiny stuff or it can play as a semi horde force. A very balanced infantry force based on core with a little rare and special support can reach a solid 100 models mark for a 2K list.

Cavalry has been tiered and now each unit performs a duty more suited to their social rank. What gladens my heart most is that all cavalry, all infantry, gunline, all out attack, balanced are all viable combinations and have roughly equaly success rate. Special rules have been more streamlined to work with the background description of the units and to represent that fiel on the tabletop.

I am certain that at first there will be an uproar of broken as it has been with almost every new book (2 steam tanks anyone?) but as games will be played people will see that it is one of the more balanced creations produced by the design team.


Yours sincerely


Admiral Giladis of the Elthin Arvan admirality expeditionary force

That is a very interesting post, Giladis, thank you for it. What I would find interesting is, whether you would judge an "All cavalary" Army based on the new book stronger, weaker or just as strong as one based on the current book.

Talis
11-05-2007, 09:27
*Starts gathering spolia from the last Temple of Trokean*

All hail the Redeemer!



Sounds like the book is shaping up to be a work of art. Thanks for the report, Admiral.

Harry
11-05-2007, 09:31
Salutations fellow gamers

I can tell you all on good authority that the list at its current stage is very balanced with a hick-up here and there. What players should look forward to is the varaity of equal army lists the book will produce. Infantry units have been exceptionaly well balanced to their mounted counterparts and internaly.

If you want to go all infantry you will no longer be shooting yourself into the foot. The list as it is allows something that last didn't have. You can mould your force from a Semi-herohammer small elite based strike force if you spend to much stuff on shiny stuff or it can play as a semi horde force. A very balanced infantry force based on core with a little rare and special support can reach a solid 100 models mark for a 2K list.

Cavalry has been tiered and now each unit performs a duty more suited to their social rank. What gladens my heart most is that all cavalry, all infantry, gunline, all out attack, balanced are all viable combinations and have roughly equaly success rate. Special rules have been more streamlined to work with the background description of the units and to represent that fiel on the tabletop.

I am certain that at first there will be an uproar of broken as it has been with almost every new book (2 steam tanks anyone?) but as games will be played people will see that it is one of the more balanced creations produced by the design team.


Yours sincerely


Admiral Giladis of the Elthin Arvan admirality expeditionary force

Many Thanks Giladis.

Sounds like everything we could have wished for.

Given , as has been said on one of these threads, the different opinions folks have about what the High elves should be, it sound slike they have, somehow, managed to achieve a list which can be all things to all people.

Persosonally I am most excited about what you have said about the core.

I love the idea of being able field 50+ spearmen and 50+ archers.

"Cavalry has beeh tiered and now each unit performs a duty more suited to their social rank" ohhhhhh sir! Suits me sir.

I have no idea what this means but I am just off to knock out a w@nk anyway it sounds so damn fluffy.

Baindread
11-05-2007, 09:40
The One True progression of High Elf rumor threads:
I. Someone comes along and excitedly posts something a friend has told them about a book which hasn't been finished yet.
II. Some excited young High Elves begin to celebrate, a monument to the god "Trokean" is proposed, the new elven god of No Longer Hating Core Game Mechanics. The Elves begin to send prayers to their new God.
III. Soon a "fluff" council is called by the High Elf elders, wherein there is much scratching of chins and shaking of heads, and then the formal beating of Arhalien.
IV. Emissaries from other lands arrive and are outraged by the lavish new carpeting in the shrine of Trokean. They attempt to discredit the new god with the use of extremely shady math ("orcish math?") They have a foreign conception of "the rules" which seems to evade the illuminations of Elven logic.
V. When diplomacy fails they push the smaller, skinnier (t3) Elves around a bit and tease them about their rediculous obsession with "special rules" "armour saves" and "decent core units." The much more skillful and quick witted Elves would fight back, but oddly the emissaries all seem to have a lot of special rules...
VI. Finally someone posts some silly utter nonsense, and the thread fades away into the annals of Elven history. (Which at present can only be bought in the abridged version, unless you make a trip to the Bay-of-E.)

Not that I want this thread to fade away. More grapes for Trokean!

This is one of the funniest things I have ever read on this forum :D . Good show. Good show indeed.

silverstu
11-05-2007, 09:42
Excellent news sounds like what we've all been hoping for- sounds like high elves are getting the equilalent of the eldar list- which is a fantastic, flexible list the only difficulty you have is deciding what fantastic units to pick and what style you want to play.
Is it time to beat Arhalien yet? I'd hate to miss it..

Baindread
11-05-2007, 09:43
Salutations fellow gamers

I can tell you all on good authority that the list at its current stage is very balanced with a hick-up here and there. What players should look forward to is the varaity of equal army lists the book will produce. Infantry units have been exceptionaly well balanced to their mounted counterparts and internaly.

If you want to go all infantry you will no longer be shooting yourself into the foot. The list as it is allows something that last didn't have. You can mould your force from a Semi-herohammer small elite based strike force if you spend to much stuff on shiny stuff or it can play as a semi horde force. A very balanced infantry force based on core with a little rare and special support can reach a solid 100 models mark for a 2K list.

Cavalry has been tiered and now each unit performs a duty more suited to their social rank. What gladens my heart most is that all cavalry, all infantry, gunline, all out attack, balanced are all viable combinations and have roughly equaly success rate. Special rules have been more streamlined to work with the background description of the units and to represent that fiel on the tabletop.

I am certain that at first there will be an uproar of broken as it has been with almost every new book (2 steam tanks anyone?) but as games will be played people will see that it is one of the more balanced creations produced by the design team.


Yours sincerely


Admiral Giladis of the Elthin Arvan admirality expeditionary force


Balanced compared to itself or balanced against, say, Wood Elves/Daemonic Legion/Chaos/Skaven/VC?

My worst nightmare has been GW coming out and displaying a new HE army where everything is as cost effective as LSG.

Harry
11-05-2007, 09:56
I have no idea what this means but I am just off to knock out a w@nk anyway it sounds so damn fluffy.


Is it time to beat Arhalien yet? I'd hate to miss it..

You mean "beating Arhalien" isn't a euphemism?:eek:

Talis
11-05-2007, 10:03
I was going to write a ballad about the tears shed by the elf maidens when the beating commences, but now I feel that would be... err...

*covers his pure elven ears and hides in the corner*

Intrepid Adventurer
11-05-2007, 11:13
*lets out a sigh of relief*

Giladis, you just made my day. Thank you for the update!

Noldo
11-05-2007, 13:05
It sounds to me that they did not manage to find the unique playstyle for High Elves after all. They will continue be the master of all trades if I understood Giladis correctly. Well, it will go long way towards not making any existing armies obsolete.

Regarding High Elf cavalry and giving them roles that represent they role in society...
Silver Helms will probably been pushed out of core (sons of nobility), probably emphasising their role as hard hitting unit.
Reavers could be moved to core (important part of all elven armies, nothing indicating that they are part of nobility (no expensive barding either). This could lead to more emphasis on their scouting role.
Dragon Princes are likely to become more rare than Silver Helms(Nobility from one province should be in numbers less than all sons of nobility). More elite strike force would scream true hammer unit.

That way we would have mainstay cavalry (Silver Hels), supporting crew (Reavers) and hard hitting forces (Dragon Princes), representing them as nobility, normal folk and specific group of nobility.

Thank you Giladis for information. That is quite close to the best possible news that could be brought at this point. Your words allow me to believe that new High Elves book will be valuable addition to the current roster of Warhammer Fantasy armies.

Arhalien
11-05-2007, 13:20
Salutations fellow gamers

I can tell you all on good authority that the list at its current stage is very balanced with a hick-up here and there. What players should look forward to is the varaity of equal army lists the book will produce. Infantry units have been exceptionaly well balanced to their mounted counterparts and internaly.

If you want to go all infantry you will no longer be shooting yourself into the foot. The list as it is allows something that last didn't have. You can mould your force from a Semi-herohammer small elite based strike force if you spend to much stuff on shiny stuff or it can play as a semi horde force. A very balanced infantry force based on core with a little rare and special support can reach a solid 100 models mark for a 2K list.

Cavalry has been tiered and now each unit performs a duty more suited to their social rank. What gladens my heart most is that all cavalry, all infantry, gunline, all out attack, balanced are all viable combinations and have roughly equaly success rate. Special rules have been more streamlined to work with the background description of the units and to represent that fiel on the tabletop.

I am certain that at first there will be an uproar of broken as it has been with almost every new book (2 steam tanks anyone?) but as games will be played people will see that it is one of the more balanced creations produced by the design team.


Yours sincerely


Admiral Giladis of the Elthin Arvan admirality expeditionary force

As everyone has said; thanks Giladis :D



I have no idea what this means but I am just off to knock out a w@nk anyway it sounds so damn fluffy.


You mean "beating Arhalien" isn't a euphemism?:eek:

:wtf: I'm starting to regret ever joining this forum! ;)


Is it time to beat Arhalien yet? I'd hate to miss it..

Grrr........

Kah-thurak
11-05-2007, 13:41
Silverhelms as Elite would certainly mess up my army collection... I've got 35 of the buggers ^^

But nevermind, I would love HE-Infantry to become usefull, and if retiring some of my Silverhelms is the price for that so be it ;)

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2007, 14:18
Silverhelms are what killed the HE infantry army off.
6 of them with full command fully kitted out is a little over 170pts
15 spearmen with nothing is a little under 170pts

No wonder people dont take spearmen over silverhelms.....
Similarly the bolt throwers and 2 for 1 great eagles mena your never going to want to take phoenix guard.

The HE list just needs some real re-organisation and re-pointed to make all things seem equal.
Like the WE list,most things can be bought for 120pts,so things slot in and out of a unit in 120pt chunks.

Kah-thurak
11-05-2007, 14:29
No, Silverhelms are not the reason, noone plays HE-infantry. Silverhelms are the reason people keep playing High Elves at all. The principle for a new army book must be to make the infantry better, not the other way around.

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2007, 14:44
*sigh*
Your obviously a HE player seeing as you think HE suck.
HE infantry has the following problems.

1.Its a bit too expensive,a point or so at most per man.
2.The command groups are too expensive.
3.Silverhelms are core,so there's little incentive to take spearmen,or Sea gaurd when you can take a cheaper unit of knights.
4.Bolt throwers and Great eagles are the same slot as PG,again like point 4 little incentive to take them.

Why do Swordsmasters apparently rock despite being as tough as a wet paper bag?
Because they arent competing with anyone for a place in the army.

Yes HE spearmen need to be a bit cheaper,have cheaper command.
Archer's need to be cheaper as well,and probably have some rule to make them better.
LSG need all of the above.

PG need to be a special slot,or there's no incentive to take them,as bolt throwers and great eagles are more usefull than another infantry block.

HE infantry doesnt "suck" and nor does the HE army as a whole,even if you dont take silverhelms....its just suffers from being one of the early army books.

Kah-thurak
11-05-2007, 14:54
*sigh*
Your obviously a HE player seeing as you think HE suck.
HE infantry has the following problems.

1.Its a bit too expensive,a point or so at most per man.
2.The command groups are too expensive.
3.Silverhelms are core,so there's little incentive to take spearmen,or Sea gaurd when you can take a cheaper unit of knights.
4.Bolt throwers and Great eagles are the same slot as PG,again like point 4 little incentive to take them.

Why do Swordsmasters apparently rock despite being as tough as a wet paper bag?
Because they arent competing with anyone for a place in the army.

Yes HE spearmen need to be a bit cheaper,have cheaper command.
Archer's need to be cheaper as well,and probably have some rule to make them better.
LSG need all of the above.

PG need to be a special slot,or there's no incentive to take them,as bolt throwers and great eagles are more usefull than another infantry block.

HE infantry doesnt "suck" and nor does the HE army as a whole,even if you dont take silverhelms....its just suffers from being one of the early army books.

The problem is in no way, that Silverhelms are too good. If you compare them to Empire Knights they are about equal in strength, while they are, no suprise there, clearly weaker than bretonnian knights.

The internal imbalance between cavallery and infantry in the HE army isn't the problem either. The problem is, that the HE infantry cannot compete in a tournament environment. They are simply too expensive for what they can do (which really isnt very much).

So the point is: HE cavalry is balanced, infantry isn't. You can play HE as an all-cav army and you get a tournament army of middling strength. Nothing more.

Isha
11-05-2007, 15:08
Giladis - Best news i've heard from Games Workshop since years :)

Baindread
11-05-2007, 16:07
*sigh*
Your obviously a HE player seeing as you think HE suck.
HE infantry has the following problems.

1.Its a bit too expensive,a point or so at most per man.
2.The command groups are too expensive.
3.Silverhelms are core,so there's little incentive to take spearmen,or Sea gaurd when you can take a cheaper unit of knights.
4.Bolt throwers and Great eagles are the same slot as PG,again like point 4 little incentive to take them.

Why do Swordsmasters apparently rock despite being as tough as a wet paper bag?
Because they arent competing with anyone for a place in the army.

Yes HE spearmen need to be a bit cheaper,have cheaper command.
Archer's need to be cheaper as well,and probably have some rule to make them better.
LSG need all of the above.

PG need to be a special slot,or there's no incentive to take them,as bolt throwers and great eagles are more usefull than another infantry block.

HE infantry doesnt "suck" and nor does the HE army as a whole,even if you dont take silverhelms....its just suffers from being one of the early army books.


No one say that they suck, but they are not fine either. They die as easily as a goblin while having a points cost 4-5 times that of a goblin. They have as many attacks as goblins (besides Levy spear) and only a better chance of wounding. Is that worth 5 times the cost? No. Look at Saurus warriors. They are considered a solid infantry choice. Well balanced for 12 pts. Compare the High Elven infantry. S, T, AS is inferior against most armies. Granted, it is not a huge issue, but also take into account the rest of the list where everything is overpriced for some reason and poorly constructed. No wonder they spent much time giving it an overhaul.

Kellindel
11-05-2007, 16:08
While I don't see HE always striking first or in initiative order to be totally game-breaking, it will certainly change the game a little. It'd certainly see more ranged attacks against HE, black powder, crossbows, and especially mortars.

Again, the Dark Elves had better receive a nasty special rule in case this is true, coz it makes their current hatred rule almost totally useless! OPf course, striking in I order is ok for DE against HE because they have the same initiative.

Well Dark Elves will be going on the same I, so a dice roll for each melee is needed to see which unit attacks first.

make an all elf battle a bit more chaotic.

Lander
11-05-2007, 16:49
My Dwarfs will be a bit worried to go on the offensive now.

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2007, 17:11
I dont see why your dwarves need to be worried about facing anything other than swordsmasters at the moment.
3+ save t4 troops arent going to be phased by a few more st3 attacks comming their way.
And your not going to do many if any less casualties on average.
Your more elite troops probably wont notice any difference in combat ability either,and if you stay put then the HE still have to go to you,and then they strike first anyway....so if they have the ability when charged it'll make nodifference to you.

NakedFisherman
11-05-2007, 17:53
Effectiveness aside, the rule as rumoured is a pretty lame crutch that isn't much different from Bretonnian special rules. Special rules should be rules such as Skaven's 'He who flees...', not Lance Formation.

belgarath97
11-05-2007, 18:05
Thats your plan. Sit back and shoot it out with the best missile troops with the longest range in the Warhammer world.

As a High Elf player I think our archery is not the best. I'll take crossbowmen any day, st4. That's a 16% higher chace of wounding and a 16% less chance of saving.

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2007, 18:08
The bretonnian and skaven rules dont offer just benefits though,they have drawbacks as well.

lance formation
-sure you hit hard,but cannons and bolt throwers dont need to hit you in the flank to cause lots of casualties,plus you have huge exposed flanks.

The Skaven rule for shooting at things in combat isnt 100% safe,as you'll lose at least as many of your own men,and the various weapons available to you all have drawbacks.

The HE rule as it stands at strikes first simply offers no drawbacks.....
Which isnt right.

belgarath97
11-05-2007, 18:21
Thunderers are 14 points each right? Elven archers are 10 points???

12 pts for the archers.

1000 pts of thunderers is 71 models.
1000 pts of archers is 83 models
I beleive they have the same BS.

Using this example, the elves shoot first because they have range. Hitting on 3's equals 66% hits, or 54. T4 dwarfs, so needing 5s to wound or 33%, 18 wounds. 4+ save, or 50% dead, 9 models dead.

62 dwarfs left, shoot next. 66% of the dwarves hit, or 41. St4, T3, 3s to wound, or 66% wounds. 27 wounds, 6+ save, but amor peircing so no saves, 27 dead elves.

We now stand at 62 dwarfs, and 56 elves. At this rate we lose by turn 4.

Talis
11-05-2007, 18:41
The HE rule as it stands

We've had many different suggestions as to how the rule would work. Someone suggested, a while back in the thread, that charging High Elves in the flank would cancel out the bonus. I think part of the ambiguity may come from no one having actually seen the book.


So we can imagine adding a spearelf entry to the drawbacks list, an entry which begins by sounding suspiciously similar to the lance formation drawbacks...





lance formation
-sure you hit hard,but cannons and bolt throwers dont need to hit you in the flank to cause lots of casualties,plus you have huge exposed flanks.



Striking in initiative order on charge
-sure you hit hard (when defending a charge),but cannons and bolt throwers (and mortars) don't need to hit you in the flank to cause lots of casualties, plus you have huge exposed flanks and movement five, which means you'll be getting out manuevered a lot more than something with say.... movement 8.


What is important though, is that the book itself, as a whole, is sounding good. Analyzing the individual parts is something which no doubt will prove a very diverting pastime once the book is unleashed upon the unsuspecting hordes of the fat and stupid races. *Looks around happily*

*Ahem*

I will say, as an observation, that such a rule in any form I can imagine would serve to make spearelves much better against lighter infantry and cavalry, whereas a major weakness of the High Elven army is wanting something that can take heavy charges. But, maybe spearelves will be good against light-to-middling troops and the elites will be there for taking on everything else. Ah Trokean, what does your Divine Will hold in store for us, your quick but lightly armoured children?

Shimmergloom
11-05-2007, 19:05
They die as easily as a goblin while having a points cost 4-5 times that of a goblin. They have as many attacks as goblins (besides Levy spear) and only a better chance of wounding. Is that worth 5 times the cost?

When you start taking fear tests to charge goblins, and animosity tests each turn, while my goblins get to fight in 3 ranks and have ld8, ws4 and I5, then you can start complaining.

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2007, 19:09
haha....you cant get a HE player to understand that fighting in 3 ranks is very good,or that leadership 8 is good either,or that any of their stats is any good for that matter.....

Ender Shadowkin
11-05-2007, 19:22
Ha ha , this thread has taken a bizare turn. Most people complain and complain about HE players who whine about their list and army book. But this thread has a bunch of non-HE players doing all the whining, about a propsed set of rules and pieces of an army book, I like it!

People have such lack of faith. Harry seams to know a bunch, I trust him. I trust Giladis, and thanks for chiming in ( I can visualy his frustration with the needless anxiety boiling over the keetle which result in his post.) And mostly I trust GW for making a decent game which I have enjoyed playing for many years, and you know what. In about 10 years I will be playing a different version of the HE book and hear all the same sort of anxieties brought up again. Everything goes around and around.

I'm also an engineer and I trust my own knowledge of statistics and basic math to not get so excited about striking first with a bunch of S3 attacks. Bring on the Book! I just wish they could bring out all the books together so people wouldn't feel left out.

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2007, 19:34
Use your knowledge of statistics to put HE spearmen verses Saurus warriors.
Then show us the results.

Harry
11-05-2007, 20:02
12 pts for the archers.

1000 pts of thunderers is 71 models.
1000 pts of archers is 83 models
I beleive they have the same BS.

Using this example, the elves shoot first because they have range. Hitting on 3's equals 66% hits, or 54. T4 dwarfs, so needing 5s to wound or 33%, 18 wounds. 4+ save, or 50% dead, 9 models dead.

62 dwarfs left, shoot next. 66% of the dwarves hit, or 41. St4, T3, 3s to wound, or 66% wounds. 27 wounds, 6+ save, but amor peircing so no saves, 27 dead elves.

We now stand at 62 dwarfs, and 56 elves. At this rate we lose by turn 4.

Can every body stop slapping me about for the 'best missile troops in the game comment' I really shouldn't ever touch on tactics. It all goes wrong for me every time I do. Every army I build is based purely on background...never win a damn thing.

"All Elves learn the art of war from an early age and become accomplished warriors with spears swords and bows."

"....and swiftly master the sword bow and spear."

"Archers are amongst the most decisive troops in the army, unleashing deadly volleys of steel fanged death upon there foes"

Thats the sort of thing I based my comment on not points and %

Maybe thats why I keep losing. They don't perform to their description. I want my money back.

Having said that:

Elves BS of 4 Dwarves have a BS of 3
Long bows have a range of 30" Handguns a range of 24"
Those little fellas will have to advance towards the elves for a turn before they can fire. So IF the elves go first thats 18 dead before you start the calculations for the correct bowskill.

EDIT: Its more than 18 dead the dwarfs have a 5+ save not 4+ save accordeing to my learned friend below.
(Is there any part fo the maths you didn't try to shaft me with in your example?):D

Oh, and my archers will be wearing light armour. So you will need to add that to your calculations.

How does it turn out now in the 1000 point shoot out?

Genuinely interested.

Kah-thurak
11-05-2007, 20:13
Dwarven Handgunners do not have BF but get +1 to hit... which effectivly gives them BF 4. And light armour for archers is the best way to waste points I can imagine...

Anyway, I think this is beside the point. HE Archers have their uses. In most cases it is good to have one Unit archers to harass light troops and threaten mages and the like, so that they cant move about as they wish.
Naturally you cant use archers to kill heavy calvalry. But that's what RBTs are for...

Harry
11-05-2007, 20:19
Like I said...I am no a tactician (or mathematician come to that) just genuinely interested how this works out with the numbers.

I have my reasons.

Maybe if someone could help me out rather than slapping me about some more.

Shimmergloom
11-05-2007, 20:20
haha....you cant get a HE player to understand that fighting in 3 ranks is very good,or that leadership 8 is good either,or that any of their stats is any good for that matter.....

They also don't have calculators that show how a goblin w/shield, spear and lt armor is 5pts. Which is hardly 5 times less than a 12pt elf.

As for saurus, it's the only ranked infantry unit that a lizard player can field. Temple guard are 0-1 and have to have a slann in the unit right? I haven't even seen a guard unit played in a less than 3k battle.

So basicallly it's saurus. That's all they have.

I think that's basically why they get them for 12pts instead of 14. I think they have to pay extra for spears and shields, so that would make them like 14 or 15pts right?

Arhalien
11-05-2007, 20:21
Like I said...I am no a tactician (or mathematician come to that) just genuinely interested how this works out with the numbers.

I have my reasons.

hehe, Lol. I think I get Harry's meaning :p (don;t worry Harry, I won't say ;))

Ender Shadowkin
11-05-2007, 20:40
Use your knowledge of statistics to put HE spearmen verses Saurus warriors.
Then show us the results.

People always get obsessed with taking units out of context with their list and running them head to head. No matter what HE will still need to have multiple units in combat to win, getting charged will always be bad. The lizardmen hand to hand charectors beat the Living S out of HE charectores and are cheaper, but if you want you can compare those two units. . .


OK lets see, HE with Spears and Shield and Saurus warriors with HW shiled. I think the Saurus cost one point more, We'll just assume High elves have a couple more models, all with full command and ranks.

(PS I realzie you never get fractional models attacks back, but in this fictional setup it suits the law of averages).

HE Charge, yeah good luck.
HE first
4 ranks get to fight - thats 11 attacks - 7 hits - s3 vs t4 - 2.44 wounds - 4+ save - 1.22 wounds.
Saurus fight back
3.78 models left (typically) 8.56 attacks, 4.5 hits - S4 t3 - 3 wounds - 5+ -1 Save - 2.5 casualties.


Break tests may go back and forth but with cold bolded Sauars have a much better change to stick around. High Elves dying twice as fast as saurus, with no upgrades or heroes. May be a tie for awhile until the HE outnumber and ranks go away, LM rarely if ever break,and they are consistently killing more per round.


Lizardmen Charge HE
Suarus go first
11 Attacks - 5.5 hits - 3.667 wounds - 3.06 casualties.
High Elves Back
13 Attacks - 8.667 Hits - 2.88 wounds - 1.44 Casualties

A little worse than getting charged.

How about HE strike first when charged?
HE 16 attacks- 10.667 Hits 3.55 wounds - 1.77 Causualties
Lm say 3.23 models - 7.46 attacks - 3.73 hits 2.48 - wounds - 2.07 Casualties.

Advantage still to LM , but wow, its almost fair now, Makes sense because they cost close to the same. but the LM should still widdle them away to nothing. With outnumber and rank bonus eventually swinging the pendulum back. Oddly the HE would rather get charged, which means they might actually be a good anvil unit.

And its all pretty moot anyway as Saurus blocks are mainly the gift wrapping for a scar vet who will kill another 3-4 HE a turn. Where as your typical pair of saurus warriors can make mince meat of your t3 elven commander.

Or how about the HE shoot thier t3 bows at the Suarus while the LM hit the HE with Poisen darts and Salamanders for a couple turns before they meet and you see how many of each are left to actually fight. Warhammer is simply not about takeing two ranked up units and charging each other in a test tube. Thats why poeple just can't lift a rule out of book and call the list broken. Elves will be T3, spear elves will have a crappy save. Fragile, YES. They could stand to be a little better in Hand to Hand.

There are many many people who like to use spear elves and any general can make them work. Most agree they are a challenge and rarely do spear elves do well in a highly competitive tournament type envirornment. Reading a book and looking at stats can not compare to what a lot have players have learned from experience throug many many battles. Dabber had a good spear elf battler report project. His results were conclusive.

So spears elves are OK vs lizardmen if you want to fight a protracted loosing battle that they can show up to without getting shot. They are decent against T3 low armor save armies, but vs those you are typically so outumbered that you get flanked in a protracted fight quickly. Vs anything with a decent armor save you are almost always statisticlaly better off not using your spear to get a better armor save to preserve your rank bonus.

silverstu
11-05-2007, 20:42
Maybe if someone could help me out rather than slapping me about some more.

Hey Harry- it could be worse- you could be Arhalien !:D
[Arhalien- only joking mate!].
{sorry don't know mathammer - but thunderers have a 5+ save not 4+ in that previous example}.

Arhalien
11-05-2007, 20:46
Hey Harry- it could be worse- you could be Arhalien !:D
[Arhalien- only joking mate!].


Why do I keep getting picked on by peopke with no avatars! :mad:

;)

Ender Shadowkin
11-05-2007, 20:48
They also don't have calculators that show how a goblin w/shield, spear and lt armor is 5pts. Which is hardly 5 times less than a 12pt elf.

As for saurus, it's the only ranked infantry unit that a lizard player can field. Temple guard are 0-1 and have to have a slann in the unit right? I haven't even seen a guard unit played in a less than 3k battle.
?
why would you give a goblin a spear? It just wreaks their armor save ;) 3 times is close enough :D to be bad.


I see temple guard all the time. You don't need to have a slann, but I think that's what makes them stubborn. I see them in 2000 point battles with a Slann and a BSB plus some whiz bang anti shooting things. Very annoying.

static grass
11-05-2007, 20:54
That gives us 76 HE archers versus 71 dwarfs...

TURN 1

HE shoot first BS4 @ long range 38 hits, 13 wounds, 11 Dead

60 Dwarfs move in range...

TURN 2

HE shoot again BS4 @ long range 38 hits, 13 wounds, 11 Dead

49 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 25 hits, 17 wounds, and 17 Dead

TURN 3

59 HE shoot again BS4 @ long range 30 hits, 10 wounds, 9 Dead

40 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 20 hits, 13 wounds, and 13 Dead

TURN 4

46 HE shoot BS4 @ long range 23 hits, 8 wounds, and 7 Dead

33 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 17 hits, 11 wounds, and 11 Dead

TURN 5

35 HE shoot BS4 @ long range 18 hits, 6 wounds, and 5 Dead

28 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 14 hits, 9 wounds, and 9 Dead

TURN 6

24 HE shoot BS4 @ long range 12 hits, 4 wounds, and 4 Dead

24 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 12 hits, 8 wounds, and 8 Dead

So it's either a draw or a minor win to the dwarfs depending on how many are left in the units.


I am little disapointed by people complaining so bitterly over the rumour rules changes. Why can't people try to hold on to reality when reading these things.

Ender Shadowkin
11-05-2007, 21:19
Why do I keep getting picked on by peopke with no avatars! :mad:

;)

This sounds like something you need to discuss with your Therapist. :cool:




How does it turn out now in the 1000 point shoot out?

Genuinely interested.

Thunderors only get +1 to hit at short range, that's a long way to march.

So Thats 71 Thunderors and 83 Archers is it? All in a line (correct me if I got what you wanted wrong and I'll edit this).

As Kah-thurak mentioned Light armor an archers is just bad news. But thunderors usually do have shields. Is that worked out in those numbers? I'll guess not (silly dwarves must have left them some where). Sorry Harry I just can't put on the LA. But if you want to do LA on the archers and Sheilds on the Dwarves, it will be much better for the dwarves, and if you really really want to .. .

Units start 29.99 inches away

ELVES GO FIRST

Turn 1 (elves go first)
83 HE: 41.5 hits - 13.833 Wounds - 11.5 Kills
59.5 DW: - Move 6"
turn 2
83 HE: 41.5 hits - 13.833 Wounds - 11.5 Kills
48 DW: 16 Hits - 10.677 wounds - 10.67 Kills
turn 3
72.33 HE:- 41.5 hits - 12.055 Wounds - 10 Kills
38 DW: 12.67 Hits - 8.44 wounds - 8.44 Kills
turn 4
63.89 HE:- 31.95 hits - 10.67 Wounds - 8.87 Kills
29.1 DW: 9.7 Hits - 6.47 wounds - 6.47 Kills
turn 5
55.02 HE:- 27.51 hits - 9.17 Wounds - 7.64 Kills
21.46 DW: 7.15 Hits - 4.76 wounds - 4.76 Kills
turn 6
50.26 HE:- 25.13 hits - 8.38 Wounds - 6.98 Kills
14.4 DW: 4.8 Hits - 3.2 wounds - 3.2 Kills

Conclusion Dwarves take it in the short shorts

DWARVES GO FIRST
Turn 1
71 DW - Move 6"
83 HE - 11.5 kills
Turn 2
60.5 DW -13.4 kills
69.6 HE - 9.6 kills
Turn 3
50.9 DW - 11.30 kills
58.3 HE - 8.09 kills
Turn 4
42.8 DW - 9.5 kills
48.78 HE - 6.78 kills
Turn 5
36 DW - 8 kills
40.8 HE 5.6 Hills
Turn 6
30.3 DW - 6.7 kills
34.06 HE - 4.7 kills

Conclusion Evenish in points.

Phew ... Things would be much beter for the dwarves with shields, Come on people Thunderours always need shields :) T4, 4+ save in combat?

So looks like HE archers will outshoot thunderors, but thunderors are still a much much better unit due to their combat viability and ability to knock 2 off of an armor save. Not to mention the short range bonus. Shooting at knights is much more worth it with thunderdors

silverstu
11-05-2007, 21:37
This sounds like something you need to discuss with your Therapist. :cool:



Thunderors only get +1 to hit at short range, that's a long way to march.


Sorry mate but thunderers get +1 as standard, not just at short range[sorry to mess with your calculations:( ] but i would give my thunderers shields- exactly in case of cc.
oh and Arhalien- it's cos we know you love it!!:D ;)
[oh and why are we picking on thunderers? I think the HE archers should pick on someone else for a while]

Kellindel
11-05-2007, 21:48
Why do I keep getting picked on by peopke with no avatars! :mad:

;)

Becuase everyone else wanted to show that they're an Odd-Ball but you beat them to it.


That gives us 76 HE archers versus 71 dwarfs...
TURN 1
HE shoot first BS4 @ long range 38 hits, 13 wounds, 11 Dead
60 Dwarfs move in range...

TURN 2
HE shoot again BS4 @ long range 38 hits, 13 wounds, 11 Dead
49 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 25 hits, 17 wounds, and 17 Dead

TURN 3
59 HE shoot again BS4 @ long range 30 hits, 10 wounds, 9 Dead
40 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 20 hits, 13 wounds, and 13 Dead

TURN 4
46 HE shoot BS4 @ long range 23 hits, 8 wounds, and 7 Dead
33 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 17 hits, 11 wounds, and 11 Dead

TURN 5
35 HE shoot BS4 @ long range 18 hits, 6 wounds, and 5 Dead
28 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 14 hits, 9 wounds, and 9 Dead

TURN 6
24 HE shoot BS4 @ long range 12 hits, 4 wounds, and 4 Dead
24 Dwarfs shoot "BS4" @ long range 12 hits, 8 wounds, and 8 Dead
So it's either a draw or a minor win to the dwarfs depending on how many are left in the units.


I am little disapointed by people complaining so bitterly over the rumour rules changes. Why can't people try to hold on to reality when reading these things.

Man ... I wish I had these kind of results last time I used my archers. But I think the Rrow Boyz out shot my archers. NOW THAT'S WRONG.

Freenut
11-05-2007, 21:51
Why do I keep getting picked on by peopke with no avatars! :mad:

;)

For what it is worth I am sorry I shot you the one time. Felt really bad for seconds.;)

Although given the way people have behaved on this thread I can see why no one tried to stop me.

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2007, 22:00
83 HE archers(no sheilds) will beat 71 dwarf hangunners over 6 turns.
Assuming the HE move back on their second turn of shooting and they start at least 27.49" away from the dwarves initially,making the dwarves move twice to get in range.

GranFarfar
11-05-2007, 22:20
I see temple guard all the time. You don't need to have a slann, but I think that's what makes them stubborn. I see them in 2000 point battles with a Slann and a BSB plus some whiz bang anti shooting things. Very annoying.

My comment has nothing to do with HE rumours and such, since I feel I have nothing new to contribute.
But yes, you must field a slann if you want the temple guards. It is clearly stated in the army selection part of the book. Unfortunatly the book contradict itself stating on page 37 that the TG "may be fielded as a unit in themselves,".
Just couldn't keep myself from commenting.


83 HE archers(no sheilds) will beat 71 dwarf hangunners over 6 turns.
Assuming the HE move back on their second turn of shooting and they start at least 27.49" away from the dwarves initially,making the dwarves move twice to get in range.

This is perheps true - but if you are to shoot at anything else then HE archers or dwarf thunderers, what would you perfer to field?

Ender Shadowkin
11-05-2007, 22:39
Sorry mate but thunderers get +1 as standard,

Huh, that changed from the 6 to 6.5 dwarf books then, I sold all of me dwarfs to my friends. Dosn't change things too much.

Thunderors should win by a little if they get first turn.

theunwantedbeing
11-05-2007, 22:46
Granfar I merely stated the results of comapring the 2 things,obviously the thunderers are better.
St4 armour piercing is far better than st3 against prettymuch anything.

I can see the HE being given the ability to move and shoot without penalty,this will greatly improve their effectiveness without having to resort to silly unrealistic rules.

Jonke
11-05-2007, 23:59
If the book lives up to what you tell us Giladis, I may have to start a high elf army. But for now I take it with a grain of salt, 'cause I guess at this stage that is how the designers intend the army to function. In realty, we'll just have to wait and see.

I've been toying around with a fix of elite ranked infantry in the deep recesses of my mind, wich I like to share. I will use eternal guard as example because those are the ones I'm familiar with (12 points/model, 30 for full command).

Infantry is all about rank bonus. Fighting prowess isn't very important. Goblins pay third the points of an elf still they are equally good at creating rank bonus. So how about instead of buying elves model for model you buy them in a starting lump and then add models to a reduced cost? A lot like you buy Regiments of Renown.

That is:
Eternal Guards. Ten models inc. full command may be bought at the cost of 160 points. Additional models may be added at 8 points per model.

Peace!

Shimmergloom
12-05-2007, 00:34
Goblins pay third the points of an elf still they are equally good at creating rank bonus.



The solution is give elves the fear goblin rule and make them test for animosity each turn. Then drop their ws to 2, move to 4, I to 2, ld to 5 or 6, take away their spears. Don't let them fight in 3 ranks. And drop their BS to 3.

Instead of elves having a BS of 10 as they seem to have now. It only goes up to 10 though, so if they get to strike first rule, then we'll need to somehow allow stats over 10.

Dargon
12-05-2007, 00:50
Sorry mate but thunderers get +1 as standard, not just at short range[sorry to mess with your calculations:( ] but i would give my thunderers shields- exactly in case of cc.Silverstu is correct on both counts. Thunderers are indeed +1 to hit now at all ranges, and no sane Dwarf would ever field Thunderers without shields.

So that drops 1000pts of Thunderers down to 66 shots, with BS4 and +1 Save.

Of course Theoryhammer never proves anything, because there's always an imaginary counterpoint, and always situations a direct stand-off doesn't account for. I still have frustrating memories of my brother zooming his Griffin around my Quarrellers lines of sight, and being unable to do anything because I couldn't "Move and Shoot" it, or times when my own High Elf army has been advantaged by the ability to move 5" before shooting.

For my part, I recognised the High Elves weakness to missile fire long ago, so enemy shooting hasn't been much of an issue because I always make a priority of ensuring it never gets the ideal conditions displayed by Theoryhammer - disrupting enemy fire with Eagles, Magic and terrain. It goes a long way towards ensuring my Archers are a bit more effective than their 12pts and S3 implies.

I'm not saying that the enemy can't do the same thing in return to the elves, just that the direct stand-offs like the one in this thread that are often used to compare value-for-points... they practically never occur on the tabletop.;)

Just a thought...

Lander
12-05-2007, 01:53
I dont see why your dwarves need to be worried about facing anything other than swordsmasters at the moment.
3+ save t4 troops arent going to be phased by a few more st3 attacks comming their way.
And your not going to do many if any less casualties on average.
Your more elite troops probably wont notice any difference in combat ability either,and if you stay put then the HE still have to go to you,and then they strike first anyway....so if they have the ability when charged it'll make nodifference to you.

If I did get the charge (rare I know but with an anvil possible)

The high elf infantry needs a points drop for sure.

theunwantedbeing
12-05-2007, 02:55
Well yeah,they do need a points drop.
Archer's need it most.
Spearmen need a point,maybe 2 at a stretch.
Swordsmasters need none.
LSG need about a 5pt drop.
White lions need none.
PG need a 3pt drop at least.

Xyon
12-05-2007, 04:19
The solution is give elves the fear goblin rule and make them test for animosity each turn. Then drop their ws to 2, move to 4, I to 2, ld to 5 or 6, take away their spears. Don't let them fight in 3 ranks. And drop their BS to 3.

Instead of elves having a BS of 10 as they seem to have now. It only goes up to 10 though, so if they get to strike first rule, then we'll need to somehow allow stats over 10.

:wtf: :confused: I either get that you hate elves and want them to be like goblins, or you're failing to be sarcastic? Either way stop smoking crack man, that stuff seems to be messing with your brain.

theunwantedbeing
12-05-2007, 04:52
I think shimmergloom has a very good grasp of sarcasm.

Gabacho Mk.II
12-05-2007, 06:29
...
PG need to be a special slot,or there's no incentive to take them,as bolt throwers and great eagles are more usefull than another infantry block.




PG are Rare, 2A each and Unbreakable.


[I believe they will be still the same points cost with a 4+ save, IIRC]

Gabacho Mk.II
12-05-2007, 06:35
Well yeah,they do need a points drop.
Archer's need it most.


Dropped by 2 points, no armor, 1st shot of the battle at a +1 to hit, can shoot in 2 ranks if they dont move...





LSG need about a 5pt drop.


I havent a clue as to LSG. Maybe they will all be 'aquatic' now?:D





White lions need none.


Skirmishers, Stubborn with general, 4+ armor save, S6 with great weapons.

theunwantedbeing
12-05-2007, 06:46
Interesting.....
So PG become essentially slightly better black guard for a point less.
White lions dont seem much different,skirmish isnt that amazing a rule.
Archers seem fine like that.

Wonder if thats what they'll really end out like.
Much better than an armywide strikes first rule.

Gabacho Mk.II
12-05-2007, 07:00
Interesting.....
So PG become essentially slightly better black guard for a point less.
White lions dont seem much different,skirmish isnt that amazing a rule.
Archers seem fine like that.

Wonder if thats what they'll really end out like.
Much better than an armywide strikes first rule.



- Yes, PG actually do become 'better' than Black Guard, but I dont know what their final points cost is.

- White Lions, at least on paper, sound better and seem that they might become useful in an army full of block regiments. (the only other unit being HE scouts) But I still dont understand how skirmishers will work with the 'first strike' rule as a whole. Maybe the WL will retain FS, or maybe it will be removed from their traits.

- Archers do indeed benefit from the FS rule, but now they dont come with any armor from what I heard. But heck, for 9pts* apiece, and 200pts for a regiment of 20 with full command, they just might be fielded once again on the tabletop in support of spearmen. Time will tell.

Gabacho Mk.II
12-05-2007, 07:11
One last bit:

Core units-
Archers
Spearmen [1 or more units become Special with added traits]
Reavers
LSG
Shadow warriors [no more than 1 unit per each spearmen unit in army]

Special units-
Swordmasters
Chariots
White Lions
Great Eagles (1 for 1 slot)
Silver Helms [1 or more units become Rare with added traits]

Rare units-
Bolt Throwers (2 for 1 slot)
Dragon Princes
Phoenix Guard


The above info is based solely on what I believe the final armylist will look like. Dont bank on it yet though.

Hope it helps a tad.:)


ps. Swordmasters might be allowed traits, which would make them Rare.

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-05-2007, 07:22
Don't know, White Lions as skirmishers pretty much kills my interest in using them. They are a pretty good fighting unit as it stands right now(move through woods is excelent).
Making them skirmishers gives them an entirely different role, and doesn't make them nearly as interesting. Especially if they stay in what I imagine will become highly contested special slots. As core they might be good, but even then, I'm not a fan of making them skirmish.

Aside from that, well I still think that you can make some very nice elite based armies from the book, or at least thats what it sounded like. I have no idea how the book is going to end up tho. As far as the balance issues, well, it's way to early to tell. Around this time next year we might know better.

static grass
12-05-2007, 08:12
So I was thinking to myself a 2 points drop seems a bit generous... Why should archers be better than thunderers? But with shields, Thunderers can also work as a dwarf fighty unit. Whilst archers are laughable in cc.

Even so 10point HE archers are really good. Ultimate gunline territory. At 2000 points you coul have 150 archers a couple of rbt and a nasty mage. In the first turn that lot could wipe out atleast one 20 man regiment. I think I would prefer 11 points some of the goodies above.

Vilicate
12-05-2007, 09:04
When you say traits, are those like "marking" a unit, making it from a different province?

Also, can you give any details of what those traits will be?

Harry
12-05-2007, 09:08
OK I hate to question a fellow rumour monger.
Especially when, at this stage, I am not prepared to offer any alternative rumours to these .... But, a lot, most in fact, of the information Gabacho MK II has provided contradicts the information which i am hearing.

There is one of four possibilities.

1)The first, which I do not think is the case. Gabacho is blowing smoke to throw us off the real direction the High elves are heading in. I repeat I do not think this is the case I think Gabacho is a genuine guy who reports faithfully what he hears from what he believes to be good sources.

2)Gabacho's source is blowing smoke in his direction, knowing he will post it to throw us off the real direction the High elves are heading in. A possibility.

3)Gabacho's source has been fed false information in an effort to establish where the leaks are, which his source has passed on in good faith, and if my guess is correct is in imminent danger of being shown the door.

4)The information I am hearing is false information which has been given to people to establish where the leaks are and has made its way to me. Equally possible

It is for this reason that I am very careful about what I post. Because I do not want anyone to loose there job because have posted something that someone, somewhere said that they shouldn't have said. (Even though it will not be someone I know and they have not said it to me directly. This is just a bit of a game to me and not my job on the line). Also I do not want to post information which later turns out to be incorrect. As a result if I do not hear the same thing from multiple sources I currently remain doubtful about its authenticity and reluctant to post it. (Or confirm or deny it)

Having said that I have not heard any of this information anywhere else.

So sorry Gabacho to question your posts in this manner. you understand it is not your 'word' or your 'honour' I am questioning. Just trying to 'keep it real'. I have PMed you for a chat.

Urian1983
12-05-2007, 11:22
I have to say that I am going to speculate a bit with.

Spearelves: Remain equal but with a cost of 8 points per miniature.
Archers: 10 points, they can shoot using 2 ranks.
Silverherlms: They will remain the same
Lothern Sea Guard: 12-13 points per mini, the same but with Ithilmar armour (they are an elite unit) and you must have an unit of Spearelves or archers for every one LSG that you want to deploy in the army.

Ellyrion Riders: They will remain the same
Caledor Princes: The same but now the armour same will be better thanks to the Ithilmar armour. 0-1 limitation is gone.
Tiranoc Chariots: No Changes.
Shadow Warriors: The same, but reduced in points (I donīt remember if they are 0-1 or not).
Hoeth Sword Masters: First Strike, Ithilmar Armour, range weapons have a penalty of -1 for hitting, letal blow against anything. 0-1 is gone
Phoenix Guard: First Strike, they cause fear, ithilmar armour. They are severely reduced in points. 0-1 is gone
Great Eagles: No Changes

White Lions: First Strike, Ithilmar armour, Lion Cloak, Stubborn if the general is with them, letal blow. 0-1 is gone

RBT: No changes

About Dragons:

-Drake is an small dragon (150 points) and is an extra for Caledorian heroes.
-Dragon is the typical dragon for everyone of the elves lords.
-Minaithnir is Imrik Dragon with the difference that now Imrik is less powerful (hero type) and his dragon more powerful (level 1 mage), both count as a lord.

static grass
12-05-2007, 11:45
Let the wish listing begin... :eyebrows:

Stormbrow II
12-05-2007, 14:00
Let the wish listing begin... :eyebrows:
You mean that's *not* the point of a HE rumour thread.:p
Silver Helms as special ended that for me.

Fhoen
12-05-2007, 14:37
I havent a clue as to LSG. Maybe they will all be 'aquatic' now?:D

oooooooh with pet sea dragons maybe? :D :cool:

Arhalien
12-05-2007, 17:57
Silver Helms as special ended that for me.

Yeah. If this is true, then why are Reavers (from Ellyria) more common that Silver Helms (from all provinces)? :wtf:

Hmmm, I'm going with Harry on this one; I'm waiting; it's too early for rumours like that to be appearing IMO.

theunwantedbeing
12-05-2007, 18:06
I think he's presuming the HE book will look like a sort of copy of the WE & DE books.As their "heavy cavalry" choices are all special.While their fast cavalry are core choices.

Gabacho Mk.II
12-05-2007, 18:15
...
So sorry Gabacho to question your posts in this manner. you understand it is not your 'word' or your 'honour' I am questioning. Just trying to 'keep it real'. I have PMed you for a chat.


Harry, thats fine. I am not worried in the least bit. What I post is what I hear, and if I receive 'bad' or unthruthful info, that is fine as well. I certainly am not going to lose sleep over it.

Anyways, I will certainly keep posting rumors as soon as I hear them from whatever source there is. Better than being kept in the dark.;)

belgarath97
12-05-2007, 18:33
Can every body stop slapping me about for the 'best missile troops in the game comment' I really shouldn't ever touch on tactics. It all goes wrong for me every time I do. Every army I build is based purely on background...never win a damn thing.

"All Elves learn the art of war from an early age and become accomplished warriors with spears swords and bows."

"....and swiftly master the sword bow and spear."

"Archers are amongst the most decisive troops in the army, unleashing deadly volleys of steel fanged death upon there foes"

Thats the sort of thing I based my comment on not points and %

Maybe thats why I keep losing. They don't perform to their description. I want my money back.

Having said that:

Elves BS of 4 Dwarves have a BS of 3
Long bows have a range of 30" Handguns a range of 24"
Those little fellas will have to advance towards the elves for a turn before they can fire. So IF the elves go first thats 18 dead before you start the calculations for the correct bowskill.

EDIT: Its more than 18 dead the dwarfs have a 5+ save not 4+ save accordeing to my learned friend below.
(Is there any part fo the maths you didn't try to shaft me with in your example?):D

Oh, and my archers will be wearing light armour. So you will need to add that to your calculations.

How does it turn out now in the 1000 point shoot out?

Genuinely interested.

Sorry harry, I didn't know you were taking a beating, I posted without finishing the read. I really thought the BS of dwarfs was the same, and can't thunderers take a shield?

Using the new numbers comes out like this.

71 dwarves, 83 elveto start.

83 elveshoot first at long range (i didn;t account for range last time) hit on 4s, that's 50% hits, 42 hits (I round up). Toughness 4 for the dwarves, Strength 3 bows, wounding on 5s, or 32% wounds, 14 wounds. 5+ save (I assume no shield) or 67% casualty rate, or 9 dead.

If the dwarfs are move or fire (which I don't think they are but I'm using what's been stated here "before they can fire"), we enter turn 2 at 83 elves, and 62 dwarves.

Turn 2.

83 elveshoot first at long range hit on 4s, that's 50% hits, 42 hits. Toughness 4 for the dwarves, Strength 3 bows, wounding on 5s, or 32% wounds, 14 wounds. 5+ save or 67% casualty rate, or 9 dead.

53 Dwarves shoot back, hitting on 5's, also long range, of 32% hit, 17 hit. Strength 4 guns, Toughness 3 elves, wounding on 3's, or 66% wounds, 12 wounds. They are strength 4 and AP, so our light armor is negated, thus 12 dead.

Ends of turn 2 stands 53 Dwarves, 71 Elves.

Turn 3.

71 Elves shoot first, scoring 36 hits, 12 wounds, and 8 wounds.

45 Dwarves shoot back, hitting 15, wounding and killing 8.

Turn 4

63 Elves kill 7.
38 Dwarves kill 7.

It will continue this way until the end of the game. This assumes of course a 5+ save (I really thought they could take Heavy armor and shield, and that they can't fire fires turn.) Also they is using thunderers, this equation with crossbowmen looks a lot different, same range, so no free shooting.

Again Harry, I am sorry I was wrong on some of my details, but having used a elf gunline against a dwarf gunline, I've seen first hand how poorly we can do.

TimmyMWD
12-05-2007, 18:56
Just to back up Harry, I'm in 100% agreement with him. A lot of the rumors from Gabacho Mk.II go in a much different direction than the rumors I'm getting. So that rules out #4 in Harry's post.

NakedFisherman
12-05-2007, 20:28
Or, it could possibly be that some people like to make things up and have a habit of doing so?

Franc
12-05-2007, 21:13
53 Dwarves shoot back, hitting on 5's, also long range


No, Dwarf handguns have always +1 to hit, thus negating long range penalty, or equal to giving them+1 BS. It is in revised handbook (2006). By the old handbook (2000) they had +1 to hit only in short range.
I know this very well, my friend plays Dwarfs, I play HE and we battle often.
So that would mean they hit 50%, which makes things for HE archers much worse.

Arhandjeo
12-05-2007, 22:16
Dwarfs have +1 to hit ONLY in short range...read the Dwarf book again...;)
And if he claims different...well...he cheats...:evilgrin:

theunwantedbeing
12-05-2007, 22:20
According to the 7th edition Dwarf reference sheet the Dwarf handgun has a +1 to hit modifier.
Mentions nothing about it being just short range.....

TimmyMWD
12-05-2007, 22:31
Dwarfs have +1 to hit ONLY in short range...read the Dwarf book again...;)
And if he claims different...well...he cheats...:evilgrin:

The original dwarf 6th ed book had the guns at +1 to hit short range and you could move and fire. The current 6th ed book simply gives them a +1 to hit.

sheck2
12-05-2007, 23:47
The original dwarf 6th ed book had the guns at +1 to hit short range and you could move and fire. The current 6th ed book simply gives them a +1 to hit.

To be more exact...they are superior design (+1 to hit at ANY range), armor piecing (-2 AS), and move-or-fire...

Hellebore
13-05-2007, 02:51
Which is effectively giving them +1 BS when firing guns. Dwarfs for some reason never really improve their aim...

Although, you'd think that a crossbow would be at least as accurate as a handgun - so why don't dwarfen crossbows get +1 to hit? It's not like it's hard to put a sight on a crossbow.

I like the idea of skirmishing White Lions - they are basically a unit of elven lumberjacks (they even put on women's clothing and hang around in bars...). ;)

What I really want to do is make an army of Swordmasters mmmmm samurai eat your heartout! :evilgrin:

Hellebore

Kloud13
13-05-2007, 04:35
Not to wishlist, but to make Elves more Elvish (or at least in my mind) to reflect the Speed and agility and basicly cat like reflexes of an elf, I think Elves should always be -1 to hit, at least the Heroes and elite type units anyway.

Shimmergloom
13-05-2007, 05:17
Giving Thunderers +1 to hit was just the way to sell more thunderer models. Notice that every dward battalion or army deal is filled with thunderers. Even skull pass.

If GW really wanted more people to use crossbows or bows or whatever, then dwarf crossbows should have gotten the +1 to hit rule and thunderers should have just stayed armor piercing and move and shoot.

And the main rulebook should have just allowed shortbow and bowmen to march and shoot.

sheck2
13-05-2007, 05:24
Although, you'd think that a crossbow would be at least as accurate as a handgun - so why don't dwarfen crossbows get +1 to hit? It's not like it's hard to put a sight on a crossbow.


Hellebore


The book specifically mentions rifled barrels, improved powder, and better firing mechanisms. A crossbow only has one of three...

Varath- Lord Impaler
13-05-2007, 07:30
Also we dont put a sight on a crossbow because Dwarsf just dont put sights on crossbows, its something which doesnt happen, it never happened then, so it doesnt happen now.

Anyway, your saying that they want to push thunderers? Thunderers arnt as good as they used to be (move and shoot was a GOD) and they are more expensive (with a unit of 10 with shields (and we always take shields) being 150 points)

Quarrellers with shields are 120 points, quite a bargain. I dont prefer one over the other and take one unit of each (and in bigger games, 2 units of Crossbows, one of thunderers)

Hellebore
13-05-2007, 07:56
The book specifically mentions rifled barrels, improved powder, and better firing mechanisms. A crossbow only has one of three...

Well, yes, it does.

I'm not sure how you can use lack of black powder and rifled barrels as an argument to justify the lack of accurate crossbows, as they don't use them, and thus cannot have improved versions...

We make the statement that dwarf handguns have been improved and thus gain a bonus. This has happened over the time since the dwarfs developed guns. Crossbows have been around longer than guns, and are simpler in construction. Thus a dwarfen crossbow has had more time and possesses simpler mechanisms with which to favour an improvement in function.

Ergo, the rules for dwarfen handguns are there to make them sell, and prove Shimmergloom (for once :p) = correct.

Hellebore

The Old Scholar
13-05-2007, 08:28
Hey, Hellebore...this has gone off topic, but I can't resist challenging your logic...please don't take this the wrong way...
Rifling gives spin...powder, especially improved powder burns super fast causing a controlled explosion which propells a heavy ball of lead at a very high velocity. When combined with the rifled barrel the projectile will travel farther, faster and more accurately than say, a quarrel from a crossbow propelled by tension and not an explosion. An eight inch quarrel will also suffer from prevailing winds and its accuracy beyond a certain distance is diminshed as are bullets but one more significantly than others.
Ergo, handguns should get a +1...HOWEVER, you're certainly right about sales...
Sorry for talking about something Dwarven and not Elven in an Elf rumor post...

Kloud13
13-05-2007, 08:31
I don't think that is a solid line of reasoning Hellebore. In our own worldThe Bow and Arrow has been around for, I don't know 300 years? not sure, but since it's creation it has advanced to the modern Compound Bows that are impressive yes, But No where near as effective as the Rifles you see at the pinnicle of todays technology. and Firearms have only been around for What 150 years? Now I am guessing, but I figure Bow and Arrow Technology have been around twice as long as Firearm technology so by your logic Bow and Arrows should be better than any gun because we have had twice as long to perfect the Bow and Arrow, But I've never heard of an Arrow being able to take out a target over 1 mile away. However you are right on one thing, Sales are a definite factor in the rule making process for GW.

Kloud13
13-05-2007, 08:36
Ok Back to Elves
I was watching a Show on TV the other day, and it was the top 10 Weopons ever made. And one of the best was The English Longbow. And they did a demonstration that was to represent The Heavy Armour of the French. And The LongBow Arrows would punch through Even Heavy Armour like nothing.
So not even game fluff, but actual Fact, I'm thinking Elven Longbows should be at least -2 to armour saves

Linkusmax
13-05-2007, 08:46
At long range Longbows aren't that effective at punching through armour. But that didn't matter because they used volley fire and a master archer (whom the rest of the group emulated) in order to send out large numbers of highly accurate shots

Harry
13-05-2007, 08:54
Its my fault.

You make some seemingly harmless comment like 'High Elves are the best missile troops in the game', (BASED ON BACKGROUND) in the middle of a big (on topic) post and every body latches on to that. There then follows a massive round of "Mathshammer" which as far as I can tell has so far prooved inconclusive with on person calling a win for the elves another a win for the Dwarves and another saying it too close to call! And from what I can gather we can't even agree on the points we are basing the maths on yet! Is it any wonder that the developers have problems balancing the books.

The English longbow is at least as armour piercing as an early handgun at short range. But this will only begin a massive round of "Theoryhammer" so lets not go that way either.

The Dwarf handguns were given +1 to make Dwarf handguns better than the crude handguns of them 'umans not to differentiate them from Dwarf crossbows or Elf longbows.

ON TOPIC:

IT IS DONE!

The High Elf book is finished and on its way, by Lion chariot overnight delivery, to the printers.

Kloud13
13-05-2007, 08:54
Now here is where the fluff comes in, Wouldn't all Elves be considered Master Archers? Heck even Eltharion is BS 6 and he's Blind.

Kloud13
13-05-2007, 09:04
Yeah You are Right Harry, You can make numbers say whatever YOU want. one of my best friends is a Closet Power Gamer, and he pulls out the Mathhammer all the time. but you forget.... my dice hate me

I don't think my Dragon Princes have ever once passed a fear test (charging Salamanders) I roll box cars everytime. It got so bad, They take the Lion Standard evertime now.

Dargon
13-05-2007, 09:19
IT IS DONE!

The High Elf book is finished and on its way, by Lion chariot overnight delivery, to the printers.Wow! There's usually a 3 month turnover (or so I've picked up from numerous discussions) between a book/magazine being sent to the printers and it being distributed to all the stores.

That means the book will be ready as early as mid-August (my birthday:D )... either sitting around for 2-3 months waiting for a November release... or could they be arriving a little earlier than currently predicted?

Just a thought...

Harry
13-05-2007, 09:25
I think this is the normal timescale.
Book finished six months out. Sent to printers.
Book ready and as you say sitting around for two-three months.
I think this may be to give them time to get it distributed all over the globe.
Apparently even aussies play our dress wearing friends.

No suprise to me, Dargon, after recent revelations.
I am amazed they find the time in between all the womens magazines they read.

Its all right I won't keep mentioning it.

Well, not very often.

rkunisch
13-05-2007, 09:45
...
I think this may be to give them time to get it distributed all over the globe.
...

And do not forget that it will be translated and need to be printed in that languages as well. ;)

Have fun,

Rolf.

C-Coen
13-05-2007, 09:58
Now here is where the fluff comes in, Wouldn't all Elves be considered Master Archers? Heck even Eltharion is BS 6 and he's Blind.
Lol. That's a good one. Sigged.
But well, if everything was based on the background..
WE archers should be better. They are. But Glade Riders should be the best on horse. They aren't.
Book done? Good! But in the book are pics of the figs, so they are mostly done also?
*wants to go to the HQ and see them*

The Old Scholar
13-05-2007, 10:23
Its my fault.

ON TOPIC:

IT IS DONE!

The High Elf book is finished and on its way, by Lion chariot overnight delivery, to the printers.

That is great news...
This means everything is on schedule, right?
Thanks for the update.

Baindread
13-05-2007, 10:44
Its my fault.

You make some seemingly harmless comment like 'High Elves are the best missile troops in the game', (BASED ON BACKGROUND) in the middle of a big (on topic) post and every body latches on to that. There then follows a massive round of "Mathshammer" which as far as I can tell has so far prooved inconclusive with on person calling a win for the elves another a win for the Dwarves and another saying it too close to call! And from what I can gather we can't even agree on the points we are basing the maths on yet! Is it any wonder that the developers have problems balancing the books.


OR, the discussion about background Vs rules should never ever come up because the most important thing about this game will always be the rules.

See my simple chart here:

Only Rules = Still a functioning game.

Only Background = Not a functioning game. Not a game at all actually because you need the ******* rules, mates.

Rules + Some background = Warhammer.


Please don't discuss how rules should be depending on background and what is best and so forth. It hurts me brains. /end monthy python simpleton brain damage speach.

Hellebore
13-05-2007, 12:31
Hey, Hellebore...this has gone off topic, but I can't resist challenging your logic...please don't take this the wrong way...
Rifling gives spin...powder, especially improved powder burns super fast causing a controlled explosion which propells a heavy ball of lead at a very high velocity. When combined with the rifled barrel the projectile will travel farther, faster and more accurately than say, a quarrel from a crossbow propelled by tension and not an explosion. An eight inch quarrel will also suffer from prevailing winds and its accuracy beyond a certain distance is diminshed as are bullets but one more significantly than others.
Ergo, handguns should get a +1...HOWEVER, you're certainly right about sales...
Sorry for talking about something Dwarven and not Elven in an Elf rumor post...

This is true if one decides not to improve the weapon. You could for instance, make a discarding sabot crossbow. A tube with a slot to allow the string to slide through, and stabilising fins to keep it on track. The above argument is true when applied to improvment of guns, but no one has tried to improve a crossbow.


I don't think that is a solid line of reasoning Hellebore. In our own worldThe Bow and Arrow has been around for, I don't know 300 years? not sure, but since it's creation it has advanced to the modern Compound Bows that are impressive yes, But No where near as effective as the Rifles you see at the pinnicle of todays technology. and Firearms have only been around for What 150 years? Now I am guessing, but I figure Bow and Arrow Technology have been around twice as long as Firearm technology so by your logic Bow and Arrows should be better than any gun because we have had twice as long to perfect the Bow and Arrow, But I've never heard of an Arrow being able to take out a target over 1 mile away. However you are right on one thing, Sales are a definite factor in the rule making process for GW.

No, I didn't specify that a crossbow would be X and X better, I just said that logically, it should probably be better because it has had longer to be perfected.



Crossbows have been around longer than guns, and are simpler in construction. Thus a dwarfen crossbow has had more time and possesses simpler mechanisms with which to favour an improvement in function.


Now, the argument isn't so much 'crossbows are better than handguns' but rather "dwarfen handguns are better than human handguns, and dwarfen crossbows are better than human crossbows." The above was simply saying that given the time alotted, crossbows have had the same opportunity to be improved as handguns.

Apply this to reality, and you see that "modern crossbows are better than medieval crossbows and modern guns are better than medieval guns" which is true.

The dwarfs still use crossbows, we do not (excepting recreation of course). Even without the military might of humanity trying to improve the crossbow, it has been improved. The military has spent all its energy trying to improve the handgun.

As the dwarfs still use crossbows, they must be extremely stupid, being totally blinded by tradition, or there is some advantage in using them (they do have a longer range). They have successfully defended their homes for thousands of years with the crossbow, and it has yet to be replaced with the handgun.

If it isn't effective, surely it would have been replaced with the handgun. Now, I can believe that the dwarfs are stubborn and prideful, but THAT stubborn?

Basically, it's an effective weapon, has been so for thousands of years, and is still in use today. So if the handgun is so much more superior, why has it not displaced it? Either because dwarfen crossbows are really good, or dwarfs are too proud to replace their outdated equipment with something that works better, ie protects their people.


Hellebore

Ashnari Doomsong
13-05-2007, 13:33
Just on a side note, I personally thought handguns were supposed to be inaccurate? As in, rather a -1 penalty for any HGs NOT dwarf-made?

EDIT: This all in fluff, naturally.

Firestorm Falcon
13-05-2007, 13:49
That would be more realistic but Empire hangunners would look crap then, hitting on 6s at long range.

Arhalien
13-05-2007, 14:06
ON TOPIC:

IT IS DONE!

The High Elf book is finished and on its way, by Lion chariot overnight delivery, to the printers.

WOOO!!!! :D :D

On a slightly different note; I now consider my self justified in my views ;). This is getting worse thatn State of the High Elves; at least there we didn;t start discussing dwarf weaponry! :p

Firestorm Falcon
13-05-2007, 14:11
Much worse, I haven't got anything to sig from this thread :).

Harry
13-05-2007, 14:52
Much worse, I haven't got anything to sig from this thread :).

This thread is worse than catching your dick in your zipper.:D

Red_Lep
13-05-2007, 14:54
Now here is where the fluff comes in, Wouldn't all Elves be considered Master Archers? Heck even Eltharion is BS 6 and he's Blind.

That made my day :D

Firestorm Falcon
13-05-2007, 14:59
This thread is worse than catching your dick in your zipper.:D

:eek: A little too blatent methinks:D . Where would we be without harry?

chivalrous
13-05-2007, 16:29
White Lions


Skirmishers, Stubborn with general, 4+ armor save, S6 with great weapons.

4+ armour saves? That hardly keeps up with their background as foresters, unless you're suggesting that their White Lion cloaks now acts in the same way as a Sea Dragon cloak (which is no bad suggestion).

Of course Heavy armour always seemed strange for a unit that could lightly move through the forests with no penalty.


Basically, it's an effective weapon, has been so for thousands of years, and is still in use today. So if the handgun is so much more superior, why has it not displaced it? Either because dwarfen crossbows are really good, or dwarfs are too proud to replace their outdated equipment with something that works better, ie protects their people.
Hellebore

Sorry to off topic again but insofar as the bacgkround is concerned crossbows are still going to be a more proliferant weapon down to the cost and ease of manufacture.
While the handgun may be more accurate, quicker to reload and have a better penetration power (not necessarily wounding power), crossbows are much quicker and simpler to build and repair.
Until Dwarfs can mass produce their handguns or at the very least create the technology necessary to forge an accruate and reliable handgun in a similar time it takes to carve a crossbow, the crossbow is still going to be a favoured weapon.
In real life, the reason guns are now favoured over crossbows is simply because they are easy to mass procuce, quick and reliable and often more accurate to use than a crossbow.