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View Full Version : Marketing: "We need to sell more X. Give them uber-rules.". Designer: "Yes sir!!!"



Stingray_tm
08-05-2007, 23:10
Do is see this right?

New Space Marine-Terminators come out: They get Assault Cannons, with rules, which a lot of people see as unbalanced.

The new Carnifex Model comes out: The new Nid-codex has the option to take 6 Carnifexes by using them as Elite. And here is the hated Godzilla-List.

Th new Chaos Space Marine-Terminators come out: Obliterators change to Heavy Support, so they don't compete against (and win) Terminators.

The new Chaos Codex emphasizes on Renegade Legions: GW can sell more normal Space Marine sprues without releasing any additional Chaos-specific models.

The same in Fantasy:

The new Giant comes out: Almost every army can include one as DoW.

The new Dragon comes out: The new HE army book will probably allow HE players to take multiple Dragons/Drakes.

Am i the only one worried about this?

starlight
08-05-2007, 23:15
Nope. They admitted it long ago when they introduced the 5+ InvSave for Terminators. Nothing new here.

GW exists to sell miniatures. End of story.

The Chaos/Renegade shift was because they realised that there was too much focus on just a few Chaos lists, when they *really* wouldn't be the most common *bad* Marines in the 40K Universe.

Rightnow
08-05-2007, 23:22
As starlight said: GW is here to sell miniatures. They will tell you that straight to your face and are not dishonest about it.

So long as their desire to sell miniatures doesn't break the game I don't have a problem with it.

Gutlord Grom
08-05-2007, 23:48
Stingray_tm.
If you hate this game so much and constantly say its broken, why do you play?

Stella Cadente
09-05-2007, 00:44
Stingray_tm.
If you hate this game so much and constantly say its broken, why do you play?

oh the amount of times I have asked myself that question, thank god I'm quitting soon

dave38x
30-05-2007, 21:57
i personally couldnt give a flying squirrel if a model is broken. as far as im concerned, some models are harder to kill than others. this game is about fun, GW is here to sell models, they have been losing money for quite sometime now, and if i see a really hard model and i dont play its army i will buy it purely for the painting + conversion pleasure. some people say some models are broken, i say that they are hard and if you look at everything about those models it makes sense.

and as regards the new chaos models, a full chaos heresy kit is going to be released, featureing models with the oldest armour modeled in plastic, fully compatable with the entire current marine range. dont say GW dont release new models, thats the kind of thing ive (3000 points of chaos and still growing) been drooling over for 2.5 years. because at the moment you can use DA and BT parts, paint a few red lines on and aloha chaos marines are born!

Destris
30-05-2007, 22:04
and as regards the new chaos models, a full chaos heresy kit is going to be released, featureing models with the oldest armour modeled in plastic, fully compatable with the entire current marine range.

Yeah, keep dreaming mate.

I'll tell you now this is NOT happening this year, incredibly unlikely next year, and very doubtful even in 2009.

It hasn't been started, hardly even thought about other than just ideas, nothing has been laid down or even proposed yet, everyone is busier on other projects.

Either this got made up, or you have a slightly unreliable contact...

D.

The Judge
30-05-2007, 22:13
Would be a cracking idea though... maybe annoying to the people who've bought all the Red Scorpion kits though

Bombot
30-05-2007, 23:48
It's far worse in 40k. That's one of the reasons I don't play it.

InquisitorRex
31-05-2007, 07:36
Do is see this right?

New Space Marine-Terminators come out: They get Assault Cannons, with rules, which a lot of people see as unbalanced.

The new Carnifex Model comes out: The new Nid-codex has the option to take 6 Carnifexes by using them as Elite. And here is the hated Godzilla-List.....[cut assorted whinging and evidence for brevity]

Am i the only one worried about this?

I refer the honourable gentleman to the fact that in Rogue Trader every race had access to Rhinos and Landraiders: Harlequin Raiders, Squat Raiders, Guard Raiders, Ork Raiders....

Not to mention Beastmen in the Guard etc...

It's neither a new, nor a bad phenomenon. Something GW have done, openly and honestly since the earliest days.

Adam

dave38x
31-05-2007, 09:30
Yeah, keep dreaming mate.

I'll tell you now this is NOT happening this year, incredibly unlikely next year, and very doubtful even in 2009.

D.

my sources were 3 store managers from 3 different GW stores in the UK. I would take that to be pretty conclusive.

lanrak
31-05-2007, 11:43
Hi all.
GW has always been about selling minis ,yes!
But the way they achive it has changed radicaly.
Back when I started playing GW games (1987),GW sold heaps of minatures because thier games were great !
Now GW PLC markets minatures agressivly and the games are just a marketing vehicle!
This is why so many gamers are leaving GW behind and finding BETTER games to use thier minis in!

May be just my opinnion ,but more vet games saying how great the games actualy are, seems to attract more gamers ,than nice pictures and hype.

In the old days lots of different people populated GW stores ,all ages and walks of life.Now it appears only the younger more easily influenced types are the main crowd in a GW PLC store.

WH and 40k could be great games ,IF the dev teams were allowed to develop the games.ATM they are told what to market next, and game play issuses go unresolved indefinatley.

I totaly love the background and the minis and models,but the games of WH and 40k are just a shadow of what they should be.

TTFN
Lanrak.

scarletsquig
31-05-2007, 12:16
my sources were 3 store managers from 3 different GW stores in the UK. I would take that to be pretty conclusive.

Heh, I'm guessing you don't know who Destris is? ;)

dave38x
31-05-2007, 13:33
nope please tell.

de Selby
31-05-2007, 13:51
I don't know who Destris is, either. But he generally knows what he's talking about.

Back on topic, there is a difference between giving something unbalanced rules/points cost to sell more models, and giving something balanced rules that make cool models actually useable in games. I would argue that giving termi's a 5+ inv. fell into the latter category, and was a service to gamers.

Making a new model more widely available so that more people can buy more models is a third thing, and may be benign or unbalancing depending on circumstances. Godzillas are at least partly balanced by mission and escalation rules, IMO.

Templar Ben
31-05-2007, 21:03
I don't know Destris but I know the staff at the Memphis Mill. They said that was a load of ..... styrene. They don't even have molds for something like what he was talking about.

starlight
31-05-2007, 21:39
Back on topic, there is a difference between giving something unbalanced rules/points cost to sell more models, and giving something balanced rules that make cool models actually useable in games. I would argue that giving termi's a 5+ inv. fell into the latter category, and was a service to gamers.

Actually in the WD that had the Chapter Approved giving Terminators the 5+ the designer (Andy? Jervis? Gav? I don't recall) said specifically that the reason for giving Terminators the boost was because they wanted to see more Terminators on the table as Gamers weren't using them. They felt that the points ratio to regular Marines was good, so instead of decreasing price, they needed to increase value in order to get them moving again.

Balanced rules = good value = better sales

It worked for me...to a point. I added some Terminators after this change, but stopped after the price continued to go up without further benefit.:(

Oh and, Destris = good.:D

Bombot
31-05-2007, 21:55
Invulnerable saves for Terminators is fine, I think, as otherwise AP2 weapons made them rather less hard than they should be.

Bloodknight
31-05-2007, 22:11
Yep, especially with the abundance of plasma weapons (I still think there should be something done about them, they´re just too much allrounders and most of the time the best choice as they combine range, RoF, strength against vehicles and low AP vs heavy infantry).

Destris
01-06-2007, 08:18
my sources were 3 store managers from 3 different GW stores in the UK. I would take that to be pretty conclusive.

And I would take it not to be. I can absolutely guaruntee that this is in no way, shape or form happening this year. You believe otherwise, fancy taking a bet over it? Yeah, that's how sure I am.


I don't know who Destris is, either. But he generally knows what he's talking about.


Thanks for the vote of confidence mate. :)


I don't know Destris but I know the staff at the Memphis Mill. They said that was a load of ..... styrene. They don't even have molds for something like what he was talking about.

This is correct. The project hasn't even been briefed! Someone did a couple of sketches just for fun, but there is no production even planned.

I'm sure it isn't happening, Harry has no idea that the "rumour" even existed, so he had heard nothing, so that is 2 major rumour sources on this forum saying that you are wrong. I would take *that* to be pretty conclusive.

PM me if you want to argue further, I'm sure I can at least prove to you that there is no new pre-heresy kit appearing in the new Chaos codex. I've just re-read it all and carefully looked at all the imagery to make sure. If it was coming out with the new Chaos release or before, I think the chances of it *not* been in the codex would be pretty slim. ;)

D.

dave38x
01-06-2007, 09:37
Well then, im just going by what i have heard from people i know at GW, but clearly you seem to be the person poeple look at for info around here. guess ill side with you over this one, even though its a great shame there not making those models. and nice avatar by the way. :p out of interest where do you get your information from Destris?

in general furthering of my opinion on this thread, it certainly seems like GW is releasing models to match the majority army played *cough* space marines *cough* as the last few years have seen a barrage of SM releases. i have a friend who constantly complains at how the orks have a ridiculously old codex, and i have to say i agree with him. i really think that GW give more attention than is fair to marines.

Also, is it just me or has white dwarf (UK Ed) become a way of trying to sell more and more models. the first issue i ever read when i got into 40k was one i borrowed off a friend. it had tons of background articles, 4 battle reports (fantasy, inquisitor, bfg and 40k) and gave me a great introduction to the hobby. if i picked one up now i would probably think that this was way to expensive, why bother?

Destris
01-06-2007, 09:56
Thanks very much. :)

If it turns out that there is a pre heresy plastic kit this year then I owe you 10 bucks.

But I'm perfectly sure there won't be.

Also I agree with you, WD really is crap nowadays.

D.

The game is afoot
01-06-2007, 09:58
Terribly sorry to bring this back on topic...

I'm rather concerned by the decision to blanket rule all the HE's with a strike first rule.
This will have a lot of repercussions as it gets played out.
How have they costed it?
What happens to the HE Initiative value?

Bombot
01-06-2007, 10:20
Also I agree with you, WD really is the dog's bollo*ks nowadays.

D.

I think you need to double check what 'the dog's bollo*ks' actually means!

Destris
01-06-2007, 10:28
*Checks*

*Is ashamed*

*Changes*

Sorry, the lads had been showing me some random British comedy last night. Mock the week IIRC? And I've just realised why that particular joke was funny...

:angel:

ashc
01-06-2007, 12:30
Terribly sorry to bring this back on topic...

I'm rather concerned by the decision to blanket rule all the HE's with a strike first rule.
This will have a lot of repercussions as it gets played out.
How have they costed it?
What happens to the HE Initiative value?

Gah, agreed. Sometimes I wonder whether I am playing warhammer or top trumps....

Ash

EvC
01-06-2007, 13:12
Remove the word "dog's" and you're right, Destris ;)

Bombot
01-06-2007, 13:32
Sorry, the lads had been showing me some random British comedy last night. Mock the week IIRC? And I've just realised why that particular joke was funny...

Ah, I saw your location but did wonder if you weren't British. If you're not then I understand why you got the phrase wrong.

Gone to the dogs = Bad

Bollo*ks = Bad

Dog's bollo*ks = Good

Wouldn't want to make things too logical now would we? ;)

Destris
01-06-2007, 13:56
I'm from the US, born in California and I live in Texas.

D.

The Judge
01-06-2007, 14:07
Well some people are saying now the HE get an *always strike in initiative order* rule, which although is much better, gets some angry comments from Harry and *those in the know.*

Does this count as power creep? Haven't heard that phrase in a while...

The game is afoot
01-06-2007, 14:13
Gah, agreed. Sometimes I wonder whether I am playing a wargame or top trumps....

Ash

heh heh, yeah it's been going that way for a while now but it's worth remembering that Top Trumps has always been popular among the kids.

ashc
01-06-2007, 15:04
I wouldn't exactly say its power creep. I would however say its using special rule crutches to make certain races work in the rules system. For me personally warhammer feels like it contains more rules crutches than power creep. 40k is the other way round; I love the current mantra which seems to be "if its meant to be good, give it rending" :rolleyes:

Ash

Railgunner
01-06-2007, 19:04
Oh and, Destris = good.:D

You put one too many o's in good starlight ;)

RG

Destris
01-06-2007, 19:15
:D

D. Stupid character limit...

gorgon
01-06-2007, 19:41
The Chaos/Renegade shift was because they realised that there was too much focus on just a few Chaos lists, when they *really* wouldn't be the most common *bad* Marines in the 40K Universe.

Don't think for a minute that they didn't consider that the new book will force a lot of Legion-specific players to make changes and buy more stuff. Because it will and they will.

dave38x
01-06-2007, 19:42
Will someone explain to me the meaning of such terms as power creep and HE. I agree about the rending spree.

that said, the other day i did see a hilariously overpowered squad of assault marines armed with melta bombs take out two tanks and get annihilated in the ensuing explosions. now that really was the dogs bollo*ks destris :p, because it reminded me that upgrade something too much and it ends up killing itself.

scratchbuilt
01-06-2007, 19:42
I agree. Good marketing doesn't have to trample over the games integrity. Its getting a bit MTG.

Luthien
01-06-2007, 20:33
HE - High Elves

idinos
01-06-2007, 20:46
heh heh, yeah it's been going that way for a while now but it's worth remembering that Top Trumps has always been popular among the kids.


Ah yes, another mandatory Foot post about how Fantasy is a kids' game, vintage stuff...Are you peddling AoA in another post, or did you forget about it?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
01-06-2007, 23:30
oh the amount of times I have asked myself that question, thank god I'm quitting soon

Don't suppose your a smoker as well?

Anyways! Lifting unit restrictions also enables Plastics to made of more stuff. Take the Carnifex. Previously metal, now plakky. But if you can only realistically sell a couple per army, your looking at a poor return. But, shift them into another category as well....

Same for Black Orcs. No more 0-1. I can include a single unit of Flagellants as Core, as well as many as I have rare slots for.....

At the end of the day, it's business sense. GW want to shift production to the cheaper in the long run plastic, so in order to facilitate this, certain army restrictions are done away with.....

Curufew
02-06-2007, 17:18
*points at the harlequins models*

Are they an example of sell models, give them uber rules?

Bloodknight
02-06-2007, 17:51
No, Harlequins always had sort of uber rules.

Curufew
03-06-2007, 11:42
But 20s pts for one dude? and 30 + points for a dude who gives you veil of tears? Is that consider unbalance?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-06-2007, 11:51
Not especially. All it takes is some duff rolling on the charge, and the Harlequins get pulped. Exactly as Eldar and Elves should be. Incredibly efficient at dishing out, totally unable to accept return in kind!

El'Flashman
03-06-2007, 12:08
Do is see this right?

...

Am i the only one worried about this?

First of all... eh? Second of all no because, as you're no doubt aware, that is a commonly held GW conspiracy theory. One that is not born out by the fact. As most OnG players think Blorcs suck, Tau players generally hate most of the new units they were given, Empire players think the Rocket battery is too random and a lot of DA players are unhappy with their new rule set. Sure you can probably point out any number of new units that seem uber. This may also be suspiciously due to a recent plastic release, but I have my doubts as to whether or not the marketing department are writing the rules... just yet.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-06-2007, 12:32
FLASH! AHA!!!!!

I also reside in Tunbridge Wells.... If your up for it, I'll give you a game on Thursday at the shop. You can't miss me. I'm tall and Scottish.

Anyways.

El'Flashman
03-06-2007, 12:40
FLASH! AHA!!!!!

I also reside in Tunbridge Wells.... If your up for it, I'll give you a game on Thursday at the shop. You can't miss me. I'm tall and Scottish.

Anyways.

I would but one small problem I'm working this Thursday night :cries: I know boo-hoo. If you're up for it though I'll play you next week. What system and/or armies do you play. I think I could field something for everything but 40ks my thing and it'll take some work for me to get my WFB upto scratch.

Anyhoo cya soon... I hope.

Oh and my Dads Scottish (but i thought you guys prefered the label 'Scots')

Mad Doc Grotsnik
03-06-2007, 12:44
I play Fantasy mostly, and am currently working on my Empire army. I can use it unpainted as long as there is week on week improvement in the amount of painted models. Which reminds me, I really need to paint those Handgunners, and assemble my other Pistolier unit! Can manage 1,000 comfortably at the moment, so gimme a shout as soon as your ready.