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Red_Lep
09-05-2007, 19:54
How does the March and Charge work, do you still double your result or is it like flying and what you get is what you get?

Da GoBBo
09-05-2007, 20:02
you move what you role and that's it. I you hit an enemy unit on the way there you count as having charged, so no jumping across enemy units if i'm correct.

Aelyn
09-05-2007, 20:34
It's like flying. Squig Hoppers move 3d6" in a direction of your choice in the Compulsory Movement part of your Movement phase. Among other things, this means they can't declare a charge or choose to march.

Zonq
10-05-2007, 01:52
It's like flying. Squig Hoppers move 3d6" in a direction of your choice in the Compulsory Movement part of your Movement phase. Among other things, this means they can't declare a charge or choose to march.

Do you actually mean that they jump over other units?

Zonq

WLBjork
10-05-2007, 04:04
No, as it's nothing like flying. Dunno where Aelyn got that idea from.

Pick a direction, the squigs move 3D6" in that direction, and stop either when they contact another unit (friendly or enemy) or they have moved the full distance.

Red_Lep
10-05-2007, 05:02
[QUOTE=WLBjork;1542588]No, as it's nothing like flying. Dunno where Aelyn got that idea from.
QUOTE]

I think he was meaning that you could double your movement for marching and such.

T10
10-05-2007, 10:13
what you get is what you get?

What you get is what you get.

-T10

Aelyn
10-05-2007, 11:47
I think he was meaning that you could double your movement for marching and such.
Exactly, I was echoing what you asked in the original question. I should have been a little clearer and said "It's like flying in that there's no marching or charging movement bonus".

sds661
10-05-2007, 13:22
What you get is what you get.

-T10
Elaborate please T10.

Do they jump over other units? Other posters here don't seem to think so, but it seems to me that they do. Reasons:

1. They are squig "hoppers", ergo, they "hop", and they always have in earlier editions.
2. "BOIING" ... what does that imply?
3. Can't find my OG book at the moment, but I recall words like "always move 3d6"."
4. Previous discussions on Warseer, IIRC.

So elaborate please T10, gives us some pearls of wisdom.

WLBjork
10-05-2007, 13:54
The question is, do their rules say they are allowed to move over other units?

The rules for Flyers states that they may pass over models (both friendly and enemy). AFAIK, the Squig Boiing! does not have this ability listed and hence must stop when they contact another unit.

Atrahasis
10-05-2007, 14:23
Boiing does not allow movement over units. The rule says they always move a full 3d6" but that is simply untrue.

Crube
10-05-2007, 14:26
You know, I really should read these things more carefully...

I thought this was going to be a thread on Squig Boiling....


Anyway, I've always thought they stopped when they hit another unit, and couldnt bounce over them...

T10
10-05-2007, 14:47
Boiing does not allow movement over units. The rule says they always move a full 3d6" but that is simply untrue.

Indeed. The "always" must in practice be read as "always ... where possible".

Other than the quirky movement distance and their skirmisher rules the Squigs do not have any particular movement abilities.

-T10

Da GoBBo
10-05-2007, 17:54
Things could be said for bein able to jump over friendly units, but not enemy units. The rules say they move a full 3d6". This I thought to be 18" always for a while, but thats not true. So it must mean ye always move the number of inches rolled, UNLESS you encounter an enemy unit while doin so. In that case ye count as having charged. This is the only exception the rules give on moving a full 3d6".

warlord hack'a
10-05-2007, 18:58
it says nowhere that squigs are stopped by friendly units, it only mentiones that they stop when running into enemy units. So I say they move over friendly units (or more likely: straight through them while the 'friends' dive out of the way.

After all, in a tru O&G force there are no friendly unit, just the enemy and the ' right at this moment not my enemy' units..

Sanjuro
10-05-2007, 19:13
it says nowhere that squigs are stopped by friendly units

But isn't it stated in the main rulebook that units cannot move through friendly units? If Squig Hoppers were an exception to this that would in that case be clearly stated in their rules in the O&G book.

Brother Siccarius
10-05-2007, 19:46
But isn't it stated in the main rulebook that units cannot move through friendly units? If Squig Hoppers were an exception to this that would in that case be clearly stated in their rules in the O&G book.

Reading through the movement rules, I'm not finding that part.

Sanjuro
10-05-2007, 21:38
So there is no clause in the main rule book that disallows movement through own units?

This is in that case an extremely major change from 6th. It would, for example, be allowed to charge through your own troops. Are you not sure that you simply missed it?

Jonke
10-05-2007, 21:49
So there is no clause in the main rule book that disallows movement through own units?

There is no rule prohibiting moving through friendly units. There were a massive thread on the subject a few months ago. Someone (Alessio? Gav?) stated in a white dwarf article this as a thing where we does as we always has, of course you can't move through units so there's no need for a rule.

On the other hand we have the fantastic concept of RAW... :skull:

(althouh trying to pull this one in-game (or even pre-game) might make you lose all your opponents)

Peace!

Zonq
10-05-2007, 21:56
Hi all!

There is a rule preventing "large target to charge through any interposing model". BRB, p. 9.

I don't know if this helps, but I think I just opened a big can of worms!:rolleyes:

Zonq

Brother Siccarius
10-05-2007, 22:04
There is no rule prohibiting moving through friendly units. There were a massive thread on the subject a few months ago. Someone (Alessio? Gav?) stated in a white dwarf article this as a thing where we does as we always has, of course you can't move through units so there's no need for a rule.

On the other hand we have the fantastic concept of RAW... :skull:

(althouh trying to pull this one in-game (or even pre-game) might make you lose all your opponents)

Peace!

Seems like a really weak way of saying "Oops!" Especially as it would confuse and annoy anyone who's new to the hobby, the only thing they'd know was that there's no rule stopping movement through friendlies.

Sanjuro
10-05-2007, 23:08
There is no rule prohibiting moving through friendly units. There were a massive thread on the subject a few months ago.

Indeed, I did not see that one! Thanks!

Well, this is one where the designers really screwed up big time. It's actually not that obvious at all to a newcomer that you shouldn't be able to move through your own units - it exists in other miniature rulesets, and not to mention computer strategy games (like the Total War series for instance).

So how do you play this in your games? Is it OK to move troops through your own units?

T10
11-05-2007, 07:08
What do you think, Sanjuro? What do you think?

-T10

blurred
11-05-2007, 07:16
:D This is hilarious. From now on, whenever someone starts a sentence with "according to RAW..." I'll just say "according to RAW you can move through friendly units" and ignore him. Fantastic!

T10
11-05-2007, 07:48
I'll agree to not make a fuzz about moving through friendly units if my opponent can tell me how to resolve the very possible situation of models ending up on top of each other.

I would of course have to see this in the rules so I can know he's not just making things up.

Edit: So that's just a longwinded way of saying "No!"

-T10

Talis
11-05-2007, 07:53
Hey maw! Git down heah an' boil me sum squig!

*Ahem*

Had to clear my throat there.

Good point, Blurred. Always good to stockpile the ammunition for when the masses get rowdy with their RAW.


mmm RAW Squig....

Jonke
11-05-2007, 09:28
I'll agree to not make a fuzz about moving through friendly units if my opponent can tell me how to resolve the very possible situation of models ending up on top of each other.

If your playing chaos dwarfs you just need to have them on a movement tray and place one unit on top of the other units hats :)


I would of course have to see this in the rules so I can know he's not just making things up.

Well, it's difficult to show you something that doesn't exist. But I'll try to find the relevant white dwarf. Stay tuned.

Peace!

edit: Okay, now I've been flicking through 6 issues of white dwarfs for an hour. And can't find it! So I guess it's not there and I've just dreamt it. I will never bring this up again. Bows my head in shame.

If this little snippet of information does exist it should be somewhere in UK WDs 321 to 326.

Sanjuro
11-05-2007, 09:43
What do you think, Sanjuro? What do you think?

-T10

I think that players who have played in 6th and earlier editions are quite sure of the intent of the rules and players who are new to 7th are not as sure.

And yeah, blurred has it right - this is the one I'll pull out when someone goes rules-lawyer on me.

T10
11-05-2007, 11:49
I think that players who have played in 6th and earlier editions are quite sure of the intent of the rules and players who are new to 7th are not as sure.

And yeah, blurred has it right - this is the one I'll pull out when someone goes rules-lawyer on me.

Which is, of course, true. One should not expect the conventions old to apply to the current rule set.

However, there is not rules-lawyering trump card here. The rules fail to state: "You can't move through units", but they also fail to state "You can move through units".

-T10

Sanjuro
11-05-2007, 16:33
However, there is not rules-lawyering trump card here. The rules fail to state: "You can't move through units", but they also fail to state "You can move through units".


Yeah, but as per RAW it is still a grey-zone though. By the wording of the rules, it is not illegal and might seem intuitive to some and counterintuitive to some. It's something I would expect them to FAQ pretty soon, had I not lost all hope with 7th edition already... :)

Da GoBBo
11-05-2007, 17:49
That's nonsens and you know it. There's isn't a rule that says you don't win a tournament by stuffing yourself with a golden deamon either, but I gues we can safely say you need to actually win games in order to win a tournament. If it aint in the rules, you can't do it, it's as simple as that.

Now to get back to the goblins. As said, there isn't a rule which disallows you to run through units, but there is a rule that says squig move a full 3D6", and count as having charged if they encounter an enemy unit. As far as I'm conserned this could also mean the unit has to land on top of unit, after having boiinged 3D6", and then count as having charged. Either way it does kind of allow you to move over friendly units, doesn't it? And without a firm rule to stop you, why shouldn't you?

Atrahasis
11-05-2007, 17:55
That's nonsens and you know it. There's isn't a rule that says you don't win a tournament by stuffing yourself with a golden deamon either, but I gues we can safely say you need to actually win games in order to win a tournament. If it aint in the rules, you can't do it, it's as simple as that.Ooh, a strawman. I love those.

If the rules say we can do something, we can do it until the rules say otherwise. The rules say we can move. They say we move at reduced rate through terrain, over obstacles, and that we cannot move through impassable terrain. They do not say we cannot move through friendly units.


Now to get back to the goblins. As said, there isn't a rule which disallows you to run through units, but there is a rule that says squig move a full 3D6", and count as having charged if they encounter an enemy unit. As far as I'm conserned this could also mean the unit has to land on top of unit, after having boiinged 3D6", and then count as having charged. Either way it does kind of allow you to move over friendly units, doesn't it? And without a firm rule to stop you, why shouldn't you?If its not in the rules you can't do it (to echo your argument above). The rules don't say you can move over the top of other units, so you can't.

Allowing it also opens up problems with the table edge and other impassable terrain.

Sanjuro
11-05-2007, 20:00
That's nonsens and you know it.

Well, I'd respond to that, but Arthritis (which is how I always read his name!) already did, and I agree with what he said. Also I don't really understand what you might stand to gain from refuting the fact that this is a greyzone in the rules - such things do exist (greyzones, that is) and the only way to come to terms with and "fix" them is to acknowledge them. By denying they exist, we are only permeating a flawed ruleset which we could instead spend our time and energy on improving.

sds661
12-05-2007, 13:53
Now to get back to the goblins. As said, there isn't a rule which disallows you to run through units, but there is a rule that says squig move a full 3D6", and count as having charged if they encounter an enemy unit. As far as I'm conserned this could also mean the unit has to land on top of unit, after having boiinged 3D6", and then count as having charged. Either way it does kind of allow you to move over friendly units, doesn't it? And without a firm rule to stop you, why shouldn't you?

That's the way I interpret the rule too, but apparently not many do. They HOP, and like a knight move in chess, nothing else matters matters until they land ... that's why they ALWAYS MOVE 3d6" ... because they bounce over any intervening obstacles ... friends, enemies, terrain ... and if they land directly on top of an enemy they count as charging along the direction of their bounce. When I read the rule, that seems to me to be the intent.

But I do think the rule is not very explicit, so I'm interested to hear what others have to say. Especially how it is played in "official" competition, where we might hope for the "correct" interpretation.

Doc Havoc
14-05-2007, 18:37
Rulbook p. 65

Skirmishers move around obstacles or over rough ground more easily than troops in formation. They suffer no movement penalties for crossing obstacles or for moving over difficult or very difficult ground and can even march through such terrain

So squig hoppers ignore difficult and very difficult terrain.

As far as moving through units...
"BOING!" Is a sound and not an indication of flight. If I am on an airplane that makes "BIONG!" noises, then I am getting off of that airplane before it leaves the Tarmac.
There is nothing in the current rules set that indicates squig hoppers have any way of moving over friendly/enemy units. As such, per the diagram on p.66 Skirmishers will move around units, and not through them. Measure the distance for each model and move them whatever your roll was on 3D6. But do so by moving around units and not over/through them.

sds661
15-05-2007, 05:24
I have to say I am very surprised and disappointed to learn that Squig Hoppers don't hop anymore! The total randomness of hoppers was always the appeal, but now it appears that you only have to roll >= the distance in order to make a successful charge. Way too predictable and reliable for hoppers IMO.



There is nothing in the current rules set that indicates squig hoppers have any way of moving over friendly/enemy units.


I thought the "ALWAYS move 3d6" " was an indication that you just measure that distance in the specified direction, and that's where they end up ... and if it happens to be on a unit then they count as charging. Note that this is not quite the same as flying, since not only is the distance random, but also you have no choice about using less than your full move. 3d6" is what you get whether you like it or not. I think this interpretation is totally in keeping with the operation of Hoppers historically (i.e. in previous editions), it fits the fluff better ("hopping" and "boiing"ing) and is at least not contradicted by the new rules, and possibly implied by them (though not explicit). Finally, my way is whackier, and that's surely how Squig Hoppers were meant to be!

But obviously I'm in a large minority on this one, so I'll shut up now.

Brother Barak
15-05-2007, 05:35
Just remember you can't charge a target you can't see, and you cen't see through friendly (or enemy) units.

memitchell747
15-05-2007, 08:52
Just remember you can't charge a target you can't see, and you cen't see through friendly (or enemy) units.

Squig Hoppers don't charge. If they move into an enemy unit, that counts as charging. So, they can move through intervening Forest, for instance, and hit an enemy unit on the other side that they did not see at the beginning of Compulsory Movement. They don't need LOS.

As far as moving through a friendly unit, what happens if they land ON the friendly unit? They don't move farther since the rule that got them there says they always move the full 3D6"? Do they spend a turn on top of a friendly unit? Would that affect the friendly unit in any way? What if they land on top of a Spear Chukka? Could it still fire if Squig Hoppers surrounded it? How about characters, which cannot join the Squid Hoppers? How does that work, exactly?

If they do continue to move farther, does that extend their potential charge range? What happens if the friendly is in contact with an enemy unit? Do they continue on "over" the enemy unit? What if the friendly unit is next to impassible terrain? What happens if the 3D6" lands them in impassible terrain? Can they use this ability to move from one flank to another just by bouncing over unit after unit?

Maybe it would be best to just play them like every other unit and stop when they get to a friendly unit (or impassible terrain). They already have an unworkable "move in a straight line" problem , with out making it much more complicated.

Da GoBBo
15-05-2007, 16:06
Also I don't really understand what you might stand to gain from refuting the fact that this is a greyzone in the rules - such things do exist (greyzones, that is) and the only way to come to terms with and "fix" them is to acknowledge them.

I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding. Sure there are greyzones in the rules. But for them to be there you actually need rules. If there isn't a rule whatsoever whih implies you can move through units, there can't be a greyzone about it either. I thought you refered to a general rule, not the hopper rule. As you read, I do agree that there is a greyzone about this in the hopper rule.

Doc Havoc
15-05-2007, 16:25
Squig Hoppers don't charge. If they move into an enemy unit, that counts as charging. So, they can move through intervening Forest, for instance, and hit an enemy unit on the other side that they did not see at the beginning of Compulsory Movement. They don't need LOS.

As far as moving through a friendly unit, what happens if they land ON the friendly unit? They don't move farther since the rule that got them there says they always move the full 3D6"? Do they spend a turn on top of a friendly unit? Would that affect the friendly unit in any way? What if they land on top of a Spear Chukka? Could it still fire if Squig Hoppers surrounded it? How about characters, which cannot join the Squid Hoppers? How does that work, exactly?

If they do continue to move farther, does that extend their potential charge range? What happens if the friendly is in contact with an enemy unit? Do they continue on "over" the enemy unit? What if the friendly unit is next to impassible terrain? What happens if the 3D6" lands them in impassible terrain? Can they use this ability to move from one flank to another just by bouncing over unit after unit?

Maybe it would be best to just play them like every other unit and stop when they get to a friendly unit (or impassible terrain). They already have an unworkable "move in a straight line" problem , with out making it much more complicated.

Well, as I pointed out before, Squig Hoppers can't move through units nor can they fly/hop over them and land on them. They are skirmishers and as such move as skirmishers. The exceptions/modifications to this rule are in the O&G Army Book, and nowhere do the rules say that they fly in any way or move through units.

Let's break it down:

Choose a direction.
Roll 3D6, and that is how far each squig hopper must move in the chosen direction.
They ignore difficult and very difficult terrain
They must move around friendly/enemy units as shown in the skirmisher rules on p.66
If they contact an anemy unit during this move then they count as charging
If they count as charging then they must rank up as skirmishers

Alessio even stated in WD that there are no rules for moving through enemy units becuase it has always been assumed that you can't do it. (Even by the man who wrote the rules.)

If people just use the rules that are already provided and quit trying to impose previous edition rules and fluff into the game mechanics there is no gray area on this.

Atrahasis
15-05-2007, 16:46
Alessio even stated in WD that there are no rules for moving through enemy units becuase it has always been assumed that you can't do it. (Even by the man who wrote the rules.)Assumption and handwaving are what create grey areas. A grey area most certainly exists here.

Doc Havoc
15-05-2007, 17:54
:wtf: When the person who wrote the rule and the army book says that it is to be assumed that you cannot move through units there is no "grey area". Especially when he does so in White Dwarf.

Not to mention that if you play within the existing rules there is no hint or indication that squig hoppers can fly or move over/through units in any way. As a matter of fact there is a diagram that shows exactly how you move around units with skirmishers. (You do know that Squig Hoppers are skirmishers, right? Just checking in case you are "mis-remembering" something... again.);)

Show me 1 piece of rules or studio support for this "grey area".

Just because you disagree with what the rules and the designer of the Army book says this does not mean there is any "grey area".

Assuming that the rules and the studio are wrong is rediculous.

Masque
15-05-2007, 19:50
I don't think Squig Hoppers can move around anything; at least not in one move.

Da GoBBo
15-05-2007, 20:06
Show me 1 piece of rules or studio support for this "grey area".


-squig hoppers don't move around anything, they move in a straight line. This is different from other skirmishers.
-squig hoppers move a full 3d6". This is different from other skirmishers.
-squig hoppers count as having charged when hitting an enemy. This is different from other skirmishers.

The only thing they have alike with skirmishers is there formation, which makes em unable to counter rankbonuses and makes em harder to hit. When it comes to movement they'r not alike at all (ok, both of em don't wheel, woepie).

The fact that they move in straight line and move to their full extend (of that turn), could mean they hop the full distance, or jump across units while running in my opinion. I agree though this probably has everthing to do with playing 5th and 6th ed.

Doc Havoc
15-05-2007, 20:07
Again, I will refer everyone to the Rulebook. Pages 65 and 66.

While opinions based on bias, assumption and pre-concieved notion are fun to argue, this is a rules forum. There are rules for the argument I have put forth.

More than can be said for the rest.:eyebrows:

What part of the rules say they move in a straight line? What page is that on?

I see the part that says you choose a direction. I see the part that says you must move the full distance on 3D6. But I don't see anything that changes the way skirmishers move. (Again, no flying or moving through units, just that you must move the full distance in the chosen direction.)

I guess by your interpretation they cannot change thier formation either, as that would involve moving around each other.

Masque
15-05-2007, 20:26
Yes, I don't think they can change their formation except when they charge or get charged. Then they'll be stuck in a block for the rest of the game. As far as I can tell they move almost exactly like Chaos Spawn except they move 1d6 farther and ignore (very) difficult terrain and obstacles. If they bump into impassible terrain or a friendly unit they stop. If they hit an enemy they charge.

Da GoBBo
15-05-2007, 20:36
What part of the rules say they move in a straight line? What page is that on?


pick a direction + move a full 3d6" in that direction = move in a straight line

Doc Havoc
15-05-2007, 22:11
If that were what it equals then that is what it would say. But alas from your lack of reference points rules quotes I really don't see this as going anywhere.

Play any way you and your opponent can agree upon. But I am done arguing this, I would much rather go and play a game.

Atrahasis
15-05-2007, 22:20
If that were what it equals then that is what it would say.

That is what it says. What else could pick a direction and move the unit in that direction mean?

Unles of course you don't mind me moving my mortar template in a curved line because the rules just tell me to move it in the direction indicated by the scatter dice, and not explicitly in a straight line.

Yellow Commissar
15-05-2007, 23:50
What part of the rules say they move in a straight line? What page is that on?

Doc, I hate to tell you, but page 26 of my O&G army book says "in a straight line".

I do agree with you that if the Squig Hoppers contact an enemy unit, the charging rules for skirmishers will result in the models not actually moving in a straight line, though.


@ Atrahasis: If units can move through other units, why do the pursuit rules include this rule on page 43 "Occasionally, pursuing units can get in each other's way as they pursue. In such rare cases, move the pursuing units in order of decreasing unit strength."

It appears to me that units get in each others way. That is the way we all play it, including you, so why do you insist that it is such a "grey area"? No one I have ever played thinks it is grey at all, and no one you play does. I think you may be "misremembering" again. :eyebrows:

Atrahasis
16-05-2007, 00:28
The only reason it is played that no units can move through each other is convention.

There are no rules preventing it (except in specific circumstances), the convention is maintained by the community nature of the game. I would not be surprised if there are people playing with their siblings and friends, with no contact with the greater warhammer community who do in fact play that units can move through each other.

Its already been said that Allessio said it cannot be done because it is assumed to be impossible. It is just as easy to assume the opposite.

Yellow Commissar
16-05-2007, 01:18
Its already been said that Allessio said it cannot be done because it is assumed to be impossible. It is just as easy to assume the opposite.


:confused: Why should I care what Alessio alegedly said?

If it's not in the rules, I don't see how that really applies.

Are you actually suggesting that one of the only times units get in each others way is during pursuit? Oh yeah, and maybe when Skirmishers charge, or is it just during any charge? :wtf:

The rules are simply not written in a style that can withstand phrases being taken out of context and examined in a vacuum. Neither will the rules provide airtight proof of anything. They are just game rules.

I realize that you would like GW to produce such a ruleset, but applying that approach to these rules is silly.

And really, it is not just as easy to assume the opposite. If it were, how come nobody does it?

Atrahasis
16-05-2007, 01:28
:confused: Why should I care what Alessio alegedly said?
You expect me to care what your opponents allegedly say, so why should I not ask you to believe what Allessio has said?


If it's not in the rules, I don't see how that really applies. That's just it, it isn't in the rules. There is no rule which says units prevent movement.


Are you actually suggesting that one of the only times units get in each others way is during pursuit? Oh yeah, and maybe when Skirmishers charge, or is it just during any charge? :wtf: If it isn't in the rules I don't see how that really applies ;)


And really, it is not just as easy to assume the opposite. If it were, how come nobody does it?That is an unfounded assertion. I know of at least two people who have asked me whether it was possible.

Sanjuro
16-05-2007, 09:19
Especially when he does so in White Dwarf.

But didn't they (GW) specifically remove the official status of stuff printed in White Dwarf? I mean, it's just a glorified catalogue instead of a gaming supplement nowadays, right? Besides, the hard rule of 7th ed is Rules As Written (which means in the rulebook), not Rules As Gleaned From White Dwarf Article. :)

Festus
16-05-2007, 12:45
Besides, the hard rule of 7th ed is Rules As Written (which means in the rulebook), not Rules As Gleaned From White Dwarf Article. :)No, RAW is not the hard rule at all: It is a guideline, published in -of all things - the White Dwarf! ((circular argument anyone? ))

RAW is a tool to decide on the interpretation of a rule/ rules. As the GW rules and WHFB rules especially are all but concisely written, one will have to rely on interpretations of rules.
ANd as Atrahasis already said: There even is nor rule disallowing movement through friendly units. However, I will not allow it during any game of WHFB in the normal way.

Festus

Doc Havoc
16-05-2007, 13:55
Sanjuro, let me get this straight. People are arguing something isn't in the rules, the writer of those rules comes out and explains why it isn't in the rules and you say it's not an official rules source anymore and it doesn't apply?
Well another thing you need to consider is that he wasn't making any rules. He was saying that people playing th game were trying to make up rules that are not in the rule book. He was also saying that those rules are not needed in the rulebook becuase they are assumed.
It was strictly an article based on the intent of the rules. To summarise he really said: "Quit making stuff up that isn't in the rules. We did it on purpose."

Gee, I guess all of those Blood Angel players are going to be really upset when they can't use their new list.

RAW is not a tool. RAW does not exist. All they were saying was "Read all of the rules." If you still can't agree then D6 it.

kaulem
16-05-2007, 14:01
Its already been said that Allessio said it cannot be done because it is assumed to be impossible. It is just as easy to assume the opposite.

And remember, when you "assume" you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me"

Yellow Commissar
16-05-2007, 15:39
I don't know about what Alessio said or not. I haven't seen anything written by him. If he actually wrote that in a WD, then I'd be willing to listen to his opinion, but the rumor I heard was that he was giving a speech. I don't believe he declared that, by rule, units can move through other units.

There is no official approach for reading the rules called "RAW". Jervis even retracted himself, so lets just forget about "RAW"; whatever it is supposed to mean.

The fact is that the rules do prohibit units moving through other units. I've already given one example from page 43. Another good example is on page 41, where the rules specifically allow fleeing units to move through other units. It reads like an exception to me.

A cursory glance through the rulebook also shows me page 23 and Multiple Chargers where it is talks about "space available". Another example can be found on page on page 66 with diagram 66.3. Page 68, again another example where it is clear, to me, that normal units may not move through other units, as there are rules for flyers to move "over models and scenery that would stop the charge of a normal model".

So, you see, normal models may not move over or through other models. Yes, there is no ironclad rule that says "units may not move through other units", but it is there in the rules. All that needs to be done is to read the rules in context, not quote Alessio out of context.

Atrahasis, can you provide me with one example in any rules source where normal models are allowed to move through other models, friendly or enemy? I just gave you 5 places in the BRB to back up my assertions, where are you getting your supposed rules? :wtf:

Sanjuro
16-05-2007, 16:06
No, RAW is not the hard rule at all: It is a guideline, published in -of all things - the White Dwarf! ((circular argument anyone? ))

Sorry, my mistake.

Isn't there a clause in the very beginning of the 7th ed rulebook about rules as written, though? That basically states if a rule confuses you, D6 it. That is a pretty unsatisfactory way of handling these kinds of things, so I just figured RAW became the norm (rule) out of sheer necessity. At least, that's what I've gathered from these forums.

Doc Havoc: No, you misunderstand me, I didn't state that - I was honestly asking if that wasn't the case. Because I thought I remembered hearing something about rules printed in WD not being official any more due to a policy change by GW. And I thought, "well, wouldn't that be daft if 'twere the case". I mean, if WD is official, then there isn't really an argument here, is there? If it isn't, well, that would mean GW has a pretty funny policy, invalidating one of the major means of rules addendum they have, and then using it in that purpouse anyway!

Anyway, personally I'm not a RAW fan at all (which you can probably see from my failed attempts at it), if there was a controversy I would prefer to play it the way that makes sense, but I do have an interest in knowing what the rules are - as written. So I know when I am deviating from them, that is. :)

Jonke
16-05-2007, 16:50
What Alessio wrote/said in the wd (I know, I promised never talk about it again) was something along the lines of 'There is no rule prohibiting friendly units moving through eachother, but of course noone plays it that way'. So Alessio follows the convention/assumption that friendly units stops movement. And so he writes the rules from this perspective, making an exception everytime a unit may pass through/over another. He is making an exception from a rule that doesn't exist, thus implying there is such a rule.

Now to bring this to the topic of Squigs. The author of the O'n'G book probably also thinks friendly units stops movement. Therefore if squigs hoppers were allowed to move over friendly units he would have made an excepion, clearly stating this is allowed.

Peace!

P.S. I would be very happy if someone can find this quote of Alessio or at least confirm they've read it themself. ATM I'm afraid it's just something wich has been spawned in the deep recesses of my brain.

Yellow Commissar
16-05-2007, 18:08
P.S. I would be very happy if someone can find this quote of Alessio or at least confirm they've read it themself. ATM I'm afraid it's just something wich has been spawned in the deep recesses of my brain.

I don't believe it was a direct quote, and I'm fairly sure the event in question was a tournament where he spoke. Either way, it really doesn't matter as it is covered in the rules. It is not simply convention and asumption why people play this way.

In general, the rules tell us what we can do. If they were to write a rule for everything we can't do, there would be infinite rules.

Lets start at the beginning. After choosing armies, the battlefield is set up (page xiv). The actual rules for the terrain itself are found on page 16. Remember, we are only talking about the battlefield right now, not units or models. According to the rules on page 16 only open terrain doesn't impede movement.

After the battlefield is set up and both players have there dice, measuring devices and templates, units are deployed. Units are defined on pages 6 and 7. Nowhere are they defined as open terrain.

Units are free to move over open terrain unimpeded so long as they remain at least 1" away from enemy models (FAQ Moving).

The movement rules dictate how to move normal units through the different terrain types and how to utilize the different movement maneuvres. Page 11 tells us that any exceptions will be noted separately.

I find 2 exceptions noted in the rules for unit moving through other units. The first is on page 41 and applies to fleeing units. The other is on page 68, and applies to units that are flying. Other than these two exceptions, units may not move through other units as they are not open terrain.

Even large targets may not move through interposing models (page 9). They may draw LOS over them, but that allowance does not allow them to move through them.

Only open terrain is defined as not impeding movement. Interposing models are not open terrain.

Orc and Goblin units are not open terrain either, as nothing in thier AB states they are. If there was an intended exception, the authors of the O&G AB failed to note it in their rules.


Here are a few more references in the rules to back up what I am saying.

Page 3, characters are specifically allowed to deploy within units. If units could already be within other units, why the exception?

Page 6 Ranks and Files, to follow this rule, it is not possible to have models from another unit interspersed with a unit and have ranks and files.

Page 9 Interposing Models, If units could move through other units normally, why would they clarify that an exception to the normal LOS rules is not an exception to the movement rules?

Page 11 Movement "Any exceptions that apply to chargers and fleeing troops are discussed separately. Also, a few units move in a special way, flying creatures for example."

Page 12 "1" apart" Clarifed in the FAQ.

Page 16 Open Terrain, "Open terrain is clear ground that doesn't impede movement at all. The battlefield is basically all open terrain unless otherwise agreed." Note that the battlefield is discussed on page xiv and does not include units which are introduced later.

Page 21 Aligning the combatants, "If it is impractical to align properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to realign the charged unit as well" If interposing models prevent proper alignment, then, again, they must not be able to be moved through.

Page 23 Enemy in the way, "run into another enemy unit that is in the way of thier move" So, lets see, units can get in the way of other units moves...

Page 23 Multiple Chargers, "If there is not enough space for all charging units to bring all of thier models into combat," Models need space to fit. Again, they may not move where other models are.

Page 41 Move surviving fleeing troops, "Fleeing troops move straight through friendly units, fleeing enemy units, and all enemy units with a unit strength of less than 5." This is one exception. It is clearly noted. The rules for movement also told us that there would be an exception here.

Page 43 Move Pursuing Units, "Occasionally, pursuing units can get in each other's way" Another example of units getting in each other way. Enemy in the way and Aligning the combatants are other examples.

Page 45 Pursuit into fresh enemy, "It sometimes happens that pursuers move so far that they hit a fresh enemy unit" They sure dont move through them.

Page 66 diagram 66.3 "The skirmishers can charge the Goblins and go around the Wolf Riders as shown". They can go around, not through.

Page 68 Flyers Moving Flyers "They may fly over other models, including enemy troops" If they could already move through friendly units, why not just allow them to move over enemy ones?

Page 68 Flyers Flying Charges "but can otherwise fly over models and scenery that would stop the charge of a normal model" So a normal models charge would be stopped by models.

The rules do not allow for units to move through other units with the exception of fleeing units and flyers which move over.

This is a rules forum, if we are going to quote Alessio to argue against what the book is saying, can we at least get the source and a proper quote?

I really doubt that anything anyone says verbally is grounds for straying from the rules themselves. Sure, we can play by house rules and move through units all we want if we both agree, but the rules do not allow it.

If you can provide anything from a rules source contradicting me, please do. :)

Jonke
16-05-2007, 18:20
You don't have to convince me friendly units can't move through eachother. I don't play that way, I don't think we should play that way, I would never argue you can move units through eachother irl and I'm not arguing you can on this forum either. I'm just saying it's never stated you can't. The rules are written as if there was such a rule, thus the list of excepitons you've found (impressive list btw).

So can we bring this on-topic again? What happens if a squig hopper unit nominates a direction straight towards a friendly unit 12" away and rolls 14 on the 3d6?

Yellow Commissar
16-05-2007, 18:40
So can we bring this on-topic again? What happens if a squig hopper unit nominates a direction straight towards a friendly unit 12" away and rolls 14 on the 3d6?

The Squig Hoppers move as far as possible in the direction nominated, but as friendly units are not open terrain, the individual Squig Hoppers would have to stop as the unit is in thier way.

BTW, I realize you were not attesting that units can move through other units, but you did claim that it is just assumption and convention why no one did it. It is more than just assumption as I've shown. Only open terrain doesn't impede movement. Neither units or models are open terrain.

Take it easy. :)

Atrahasis
16-05-2007, 19:07
The rules do not say that "Only open terrain doesn't impede movement". They
say that units may move and that certain types of terrain impede movement.

Page 12 tells us that units can move up to their movement in inches. Page 16 tells us that open terrain is clear ground that doesn't impede movement. Nothing on page 16 applies in any way to units, only to terrain.
Units are not terrain and so the terrain rules do not apply.

Atrahasis
16-05-2007, 19:23
In general, the rules tell us what we can do. Quite so, and the rules tell us that units can move up to their movement rate in inches (page 12). We can therefore do that until a restriction is enforced. Such a restriction is never specified for units.


Nowhere are they defined as open terrain. They don't need to be - he rules tell us open terrain does not impede movement. They do not tell us that absolutely everything else does.


Even large targets may not move through interposing models (page 9). They may draw LOS over them, but that allowance does not allow them to move through them. It says that merely seeing over something does not grant the ability to move through. That is not the same as saying you can never move through.


Only open terrain is defined as not impeding movement. Interposing models are not open terrain. Again, you're applying a rule that doesn't exist. Open terrain does not impede movement. The rules allow us to move freely anyway, and only defined obstructions impede movement.


Page 3, characters are specifically allowed to deploy within units. If units could already be within other units, why the exception?Red herring. Characters can join units, and so can start the game in that manner. That does not support either side of the units moving through units debate.


Page 6 Ranks and Files, to follow this rule, it is not possible to have models from another unit interspersed with a unit and have ranks and files.Who said anything about interspersing models?


Page 9 Interposing Models, If units could move through other units normally, why would they clarify that an exception to the normal LOS rules is not an exception to the movement rules?If units cannot move through other units, why note that something given no special permission has no special permission?


Page 11 Movement "Any exceptions that apply to chargers and fleeing troops are discussed separately. Also, a few units move in a special way, flying creatures for example."This has no bearing - nowhere does it mention moving through units - it merely notes that some units have special movement rules.


Page 12 "1" apart" Clarifed in the FAQ.Applies only to opposing units.


Page 16 Open Terrain, "Open terrain is clear ground that doesn't impede movement at all. The battlefield is basically all open terrain unless otherwise agreed." Note that the battlefield is discussed on page xiv and does not include units which are introduced later.Irrelevant - units are given permission to move freely on page 11. That permission is not limited to areas unoccupied by units in any way.


Page 21 Aligning the combatants, "If it is impractical to align properly because of interposing terrain, other models, or whatever, then it is acceptable to realign the charged unit as well" If interposing models prevent proper alignment, then, again, they must not be able to be moved through.Does not specify whether the models in the way are friendly or hostile.


Page 23 Enemy in the way, "run into another enemy unit that is in the way of thier move" So, lets see, units can get in the way of other units moves...Applies only to enemy units.


Page 23 Multiple Chargers, "If there is not enough space for all charging units to bring all of thier models into combat," Models need space to fit. Again, they may not move where other models are.Does not specify what is restricting the space - it may be terrain or other enemy units.


Page 41 Move surviving fleeing troops, "Fleeing troops move straight through friendly units, fleeing enemy units, and all enemy units with a unit strength of less than 5." This is one exception. It is clearly noted. The rules for movement also told us that there would be an exception here.Express permission in one situation does not mean express prohibition in others.


Page 43 Move Pursuing Units, "Occasionally, pursuing units can get in each other's way" Another example of units getting in each other way. Enemy in the way and Aligning the combatants are other examples."in the way" simply means in the units path - it does not mean that the unit block movement. Nothin in the rest of the rule you quote says so either.


Page 45 Pursuit into fresh enemy, "It sometimes happens that pursuers move so far that they hit a fresh enemy unit" They sure dont move through them.Applies only to enemy.


Page 66 diagram 66.3 "The skirmishers can charge the Goblins and go around the Wolf Riders as shown". They can go around, not through.Applies only to enemy.


Page 68 Flyers Moving Flyers "They may fly over other models, including enemy troops" If they could already move through friendly units, why not just allow them to move over enemy ones?Flying over may differ from moving through in some way not specified at this point.


Page 68 Flyers Flying Charges "but can otherwise fly over models and scenery that would stop the charge of a normal model" So a normal models charge would be stopped by models.Does not specify whether the models stopping a charge would be friendly or hostile.


The rules do not allow for units to move through other units with the exception of fleeing units and flyers which move over. On the contrary, they do, by giving permission to move and restrictin it only in the case of terrain features and enemy troops.


If you can provide anything from a rules source contradicting me, please do. :)If you can provide anything from a rules source that supports your argument rather than arguments which can be twisted to do so then please post them.

Yellow Commissar
16-05-2007, 19:33
The rules do not say that "Only open terrain doesn't impede movement". They
say that units may move and that certain types of terrain impede movement.

Page 12 tells us that units can move up to their movement in inches. Page 16 tells us that open terrain is clear ground that doesn't impede movement. Nothing on page 16 applies in any way to units, only to terrain.
Units are not terrain and so the terrain rules do not apply.

Page 12 does not say that units may move through other units.

Page 16 absolutely applies to units. Terrain doesn't move (outside of treesinging). The terrain rules apply to all units unless otherwise noted (flyers and skirmishers). The rules on page 16 are part of the MOVEMENT rules. The movement rules are for units.

The rules don't tell us everything we can't do. That would be silly. They tell us what we can do. Page 16 tells us we can move our units unimpeded over open terrain. Nowhere else in the rules are normal units allowed to move unimpeded over or through anything else.

You are being incredibly stubborn. What about the other 15 examples I provided? I just refuted your 2 rules references. I'm quite sure you are wrong on this one Atrahasis. Friendly units are not open terrain.

If you are going to hinge your entire argument on what the book does not say, then you leave me with no choice but to go to the butt monkey argument. The rules don't say that strength 10 monkeys don't fly out of my butt and attack your general either. It's a ridiculous argument, and it's the same one you are making.

Where do the rules say you may move through friendly units? Where?

You say


The only reason it is played that no units can move through each other is convention.

There are no rules preventing it (except in specific circumstances), the convention is maintained by the community nature of the game.

To which I say, there are no rules allowing it (except in specific circumstances).

Which is it, by the way, do the rules have to allow it, or disallow it.

[QUOTE=Atrahasis;1546984]
If the rules say we can do something, we can do it until the rules say otherwise. The rules say we can move. They say we move at reduced rate through terrain, over obstacles, and that we cannot move through impassable terrain. They do not say we cannot move through friendly units.

If its not in the rules you can't do it (to echo your argument above). The rules don't say you can move over the top of other units, so you can't.[/QUOTE

You seem to misremembering what you said even 2 pages back.

Again the rules on page 16 are not for placing terrain, they are for units moving through terrain. They do apply.

Allow me to quote page 16 for you "Troops only move their full Movement rate over unobstructed ground." Note the word only.

How about page 16 again under Open Terrain "Open terrain is clear ground that doesn't impede movement at all."

Where does it say that friendly units are open terrain?

Atrahasis
16-05-2007, 19:45
Page 12 does not say that units may move through other units. No, but we have permssion to move freely from page 11 and nothing restricts that except with respect to terrain and enemy troops.


Page 16 absolutely applies to units. Terrain doesn't move (outside of treesinging). The terrain rules apply to all units unless otherwise noted (flyers and skirmishers). The rules on page 16 are part of the MOVEMENT rules. The movement rules are for units.You misunderstand. Of course it applies to units that are moving. However, the movement modification applies only to terrain, and not to units. Units are not terrain and so do not modify movement through the terrain rules.


The rules don't tell us everything we can't do. That would be silly. They tell us what we can do. Page 16 tells us we can move our units unimpeded over open terrain. Nowhere else in the rules are normal units allowed to move unimpeded over or through anything else.Page 11 tells us we can move. Page 16 then specifies what changes that. Units are not one of the things specified.


Friendly units are not open terrain. They aren't terrain of any kind. The terrain rules only apply to terrain, and not to units (except as far as terrain modifies units' movement).


If you are going to hinge your entire argument on what the book does not say, then you leave me with no choice but to go to the butt monkey argument. The rules don't say that strength 10 monkeys don't fly out of my butt and attack your general either. It's a ridiculous argument, and it's the same one you are making.My argument does not hinge on what the rulebook does not say any more than yours does. That's why its a grey area - the rules do not specifcally say you cannot move through friendly units but they do say units can move.


To which I say, there are no rules allowing it (except in specific circumstances).Page 11 allows us to move. Page 16 tells us how TERRAIN (not units) affects that ability to move.


Allow me to quote page 16 for you "Troops only move their full Movement rate over unobstructed ground." Note the word only.You often accuse me of quoting out of context. There seems to be a plank in your eye.


How about page 16 again under Open Terrain "Open terrain is clear ground that doesn't impede movement at all."That is in contrast to other terrain types, not units.


Where does it say that friendly units are open terrain?A unit standing in open terrain does not change the open terrain into something else - it is still open terrain.

Yellow Commissar
16-05-2007, 19:45
If the rules say we can do something, we can do it until the rules say otherwise. The rules say we can move. They say we move at reduced rate through terrain, over obstacles, and that we cannot move through impassable terrain. They do not say we cannot move through friendly units.

If its not in the rules you can't do it (to echo your argument above). The rules don't say you can move over the top of other units, so you can't.


So which is it, do the rules need to say what you can or cannot do? You can't have it both ways. It is rather hypocritical to say that we can move through friendly units because the rules don't say we cannot, while saying we can't move over the top of other units because the rules don't say we can.

To post "anything from a rules source" other than all the references I've already provided, let me close with this one. Page 16 "Troops only move their full Movement rate over unobstructed ground." Ground with another unit on it is in no way "unobstructed".

I now leave you to contradict yourself some more. :wtf:

Atrahasis
16-05-2007, 19:51
To post "anything from a rules source" other than all the references I've already provided, let me close with this one. Page 16 "Troops only move their full Movement rate over unobstructed ground." Ground with another unit on it is in no way "unobstructed"."Obstructed" by definition means "shut off to passage".

To define something as an obstruction because it is an obstruction is somewhat circular :rolleyes:

In other words - unobstructed ground is any that does not contain an obstruction. Obstructions are detailed on page 16. Units are not one of them.

Masque
17-05-2007, 07:26
There is no official approach for reading the rules called "RAW". Jervis even retracted himself, so lets just forget about "RAW"; whatever it is supposed to mean.

The following is not an attack or a statement of disbelief:

Where and when did Jervis make this retraction? If it was in a WD I'd love the issue number.

sds661
17-05-2007, 07:36
Wow, you blokes are getting serious ... they're about the longest posts ever written!

Anyways, after getting my OG book back from a mate and rereading the rule carefully I will reluctantly concede that the most likely interpretation is that Squig Hoppers don't hop anymore, which is, I think, a very great pity.

Nevertheless, the wording "ALWAYS move 3d6" is rather a strange choice. Under the Hoppers-Don't-Hop-Anymore interpretation this must mean you have no choice but to move the full distance unless you contact another unit.
But in that case, do you have the option to not move at all? Or must you always move?

Atrahasis
17-05-2007, 12:01
Nevertheless, the wording "ALWAYS move 3d6" is rather a strange choice. Under the Hoppers-Don't-Hop-Anymore interpretation this must mean you have no choice but to move the full distance unless you contact another unit.
But in that case, do you have the option to not move at all? Or must you always move?
Squig Hoppers must move, and they always move the full 3d6" (except when they don't ;))

Yellow Commissar
17-05-2007, 15:11
The following is not an attack or a statement of disbelief:

Where and when did Jervis make this retraction? If it was in a WD I'd love the issue number.

I haven't read a WD in years. As far as I am concerned I am not required to purchase WD in order to play the game. I have already bought the BRB and several army books. Nowhere in my rulebook have I found that I am required to also have every copy of WD so that I can play Warhammer.

That being said, I was merely repeating what I have read here on this Forum and others like it; that Jervis had backpeddaled from his "RAW" stance in his Standard Bearer article. I read that it was in a WD that came out earlier this year.

I say there is no official method of interpreting the rules called "RAW". It is not in my rulebook. As far as I know, the Standard Bearer articles in WD are not official rules. Personally, I have never read one. Were GW to post them at the Shrine of Knowledge, I would read and acknowledge them. Until such time, I will use the rules in my BRB.

The rules I find in my BRB include many suggestions on how to approach the game and how to apply the rules. The authors acknowledge that the published rules do not cover every possible situation. The game is far too complex for that. The style that the rulebook is written in requires a spirit of cooperation and generosity to be interpreted correctly. To actually play the game, suitable house rules are necessary as is a certain amount of interpretation. The interpretations require generosity and a spirit of cooperation to be properly applied.

I am not declaring that the rules say "Units may not move through friendly units", even though, by the rules, they may not. What I am saying is that since the rules don't say "Units may move through friendly units", that they may not. All of the rules sources I referenced merely help confirm that this is, in fact, true.

As for "RAW", and Jervis, or Alessio, or anyone, I don't really concern myself until it is published or posted as official rules. The game is quite playable as it is, despite what many are whining. These rules are not intended to be interpreted so strictly. It is just a game. In the words of one GW designer "Stop being so damn literal".

Krankenstein
17-05-2007, 21:16
These rules are not intended to be interpreted so strictly. It is just a game. In the words of one GW designer "Stop being so damn literal".

I find that a hopeless attitude for a game designer of a written rulesset. Are players around the world supposed to absorb the game through osmosis or telepathy?

If I was a game GW designer I would save myself a lot of time by just admitting I made a mistake, and put in a line and a half in the next FAQ to fix the issue.

Raffgim
18-05-2007, 10:11
Rofl, squigs always make me laugh... im going MASSIVE ogres with sharp blades and huuge clubs! and there comes that ugly creatures.... O_o cant take 'em seriously

Sanjuro
18-05-2007, 10:31
Rofl, squigs always make me laugh... im going MASSIVE ogres with sharp blades and huuge clubs! and there comes that ugly creatures.... O_o cant take 'em seriously

I bet you can when you've been manhandled by a unit of them. :)

Brother Barak
24-05-2007, 00:51
Again, I will refer everyone to the Rulebook. Pages 65 and 66.


You will notice that the unit they are moving around is an enemy unit, and if you read the 1" apart rule on page 12, you cannot come closer than 1 inch of an enemy unit without charging it (unless you are a flyer). In no way does diagram 66.3 imply you cannot move through friendly units.

As far as I can tell, having read this thread, played the game, and read the rulebook, the following statements are true (regardless of what some dude or white dwarf said).

1) You cannot move to within 1" of an enemy unit, unless you charge (p12), which also means you cannot move over an enemy unit, because that would bring you to within 1" of it.

2) You cannot charge through friendly units (as you cannot see throgh them). Large Targets, even though they can see through (or rather, over) other units cannot charge through them.

3) You cannot end your movement over a friendly unit (as seen in diagrams 23.1 and 42.1).

Which leads me to the conclusion that you can move through a friendly unit, so long as you are not charging through them or stopping on top of them...

Quite a bit has changed in this edition of the rulebook, and this one quite literally blindsided me. My regular opponent has some squig hoppers, and in our last game he hopped right through one of his own units to hit me and there was nothing in the rule book I could use to stop him. I still won, but this subtle ommisson from the rulebook can lead to some quite interesting tactics. Welcome to 7th Edition.

On the topic of Squigs Boiiinging, do they boiiing like a kangeroo, with mighty bounds that cover parked vehicles and small caravans, or do they boiiing like a pogo stick, with many small hops that make the rider want to barf? I've never seen one in action, so if anyone could enlighten me it would be fantastic :p

sds661
24-05-2007, 02:46
On the topic of Squigs Boiiinging, do they boiiing like a kangeroo, with mighty bounds that cover parked vehicles and small caravans, or do they boiiing like a pogo stick, with many small hops that make the rider want to barf? I've never seen one in action, so if anyone could enlighten me it would be fantastic :p

This question is really the motivation behind the whole discussion. In old editions they jumped like the mother of all kangaroos (perhaps a grasshopper or flea would be a better comparison, appropriately scaled) and could leap over intervening stuff. The consensus here seems to be that this is no longer the case, and they merely "pogo stick" along without the capacity for spectacular aerodynamics.

Talonz
24-05-2007, 19:44
The only time you can move through friendlies is when fleeing. Pursuers and large targets are specefically restricted from moving through friendlies (because otherwise the rules for them seeing enemy/'always' moving their pursuit distance could be read to allow movement through friendlies).

Case closed. Any counter argument fails due to a lack of an enabling rule and a complete failure to understand the obvious intent within the rules.

Aelyn
24-05-2007, 21:52
The only time you can move through friendlies is when fleeing. Pursuers and large targets are specefically restricted from moving through friendlies (because otherwise the rules for them seeing enemy/'always' moving their pursuit distance could be read to allow movement through friendlies).

Case closed. Any counter argument fails due to a lack of an enabling rule and a complete failure to understand the obvious intent within the rules.
Firstly it may be helpful to read the thread and understand what the debate is about.

Perhaps the intent of the rules is not obvious to everyone, but that doesn't mean you're right and that it's somehow a failing to miss it. It could be that it's open to either interpretation equally, or it's even possible that you've missed the "obvious" intent within the rules. Either way around, it's not the intent of the rules that matters but the rules themselves. Thankfully they tend to synch up a lot, but not 100%.

You're correct that there's no enabling rule. There's also no preventing rule, and no hard and fast determinant for which of "must be enabled" or "must be prevented" is a more appropriate rule.

You refer to only one rule: a rule that can be interpreted as allowing movement through your own units - otherwise, why would large things have a specific restriction preventing them from doing something they can't do anyways?

Finally, the nature of your last line implies you've done the forum debate equivalent of crossing your arms and walking away, ignoring the counterpoints offered. In other words, you've leapt into the discussion, provided a badly-thought-out and unconvincing argument, and then left again with a smugly satisfied air of having decided the matter somehow.

I mean no offence, but please ensure you've read and understood a discussion of this nature before chipping in with as heavy-handed a post as yours, since it could be read as unnecessarily antagonistic and doesn't really aid your side of the argument much at all.

Brother Barak
24-05-2007, 22:47
You refer to only one rule: a rule that can be interpreted as allowing movement through your own units - otherwise, why would large things have a specific restriction preventing them from doing something they can't do anyways?


It's not quite like that. The rule for large targets is that they cannot charge through friendly units, not that they cannot move through them. Because they can draw a line of sight over friendly units, and you can only charge what you can see, this rule actually supports the 'you can move through a friendly unit' camp.

Talonz
25-05-2007, 06:26
Firstly it may be helpful to read the thread and understand what the debate is about.

Stick to the rules and facts, and support your counterargument thoughtfully.


Perhaps the intent of the rules is not obvious to everyone

Obviouslly.


but that doesn't mean you're right and that it's somehow a failing to miss it.

I disagree. Some people are reading a lack of a specefic restriction as explicit permission. That is ridiculous. In cases where not every single loophole is closed, intent is critical. By reading all related rules, do you honestly think the designers intended us to move through friendly units as a general rule? The answer should be obviouslly no. And apparently this is confirmed (allegedly) from the designer.



You refer to only one rule:

No, I referred to 3. Fleeing units, pursuers, and large targets.


a rule that can be interpreted as allowing movement through your own units - otherwise, why would large things have a specific restriction preventing them from doing something they can't do anyways?

No, its a reminder...even if you can see a target (And thus satisfy that condition of charging), the large target cannot charge due to friendlies in the way.


In other words, you've leapt into the discussion, provided a badly-thought-out and unconvincing argument,


Bullocks. I provided 3 rules references which when read on the whole, support the fact that friendly units block movement. I'll provide another; the faq specefically says in the Enemy in the Way clarification "...a unit may fail a charge because...the charge cannot be completed for reasons other than enemy in the way (eg:...friendly units bocking the way...)"

To continue to cling to the argument that because regular movement is not charging, you can move through friendlies, is to be simply blind of the obvious intent within all movement related rules references.

Vile Snotsuckle
25-05-2007, 23:08
holy crap, this thread is long and complicated! Maybe, too complicated!

DeathlessDraich
26-05-2007, 09:04
Not complicated, just lots of hot air venting from miscast fire Balls.:D
Same disagreements as opposed to agreements.
Third time we've had this question and it won't be the last unfortunately.

lparigi34
26-05-2007, 13:30
...No, its a reminder...even if you can see a target (And thus satisfy that condition of charging), the large target cannot charge due to friendlies in the way....


Not so, if it is a monster and you follow the charging rules in BRB P.59 (only one pivot), then you can...

Talonz
02-06-2007, 04:47
Not so, if it is a monster and you follow the charging rules in BRB P.59 (only one pivot), then you can...


Charge around friendlies, sure. But not through them, which was the point.