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Mawchild
10-05-2007, 11:39
Putting together a 1000pt ogre army for a small tournament at my local games store. As far as I can tell the other armies will include, Vampire Counts probably necrarchs possibly blood dragons, lizardmen, elves and maybe empire and tomb kings. So I need a force that can deal with a broad spectrum of foes. Here is my first draft:

Bruiser - Heavy Armour, Grt Wpn, "Kineater"
Butcher - Bangstick

3 Bulls - Light Armour, Ironfists, Champion, Standard & Musician
3 IronGuts - Musician
36 Gnoblars - Champion
3 Leadbelchers - Champion & Musician

Gorger

Planning to use the Gnoblars as a screen against shooty folks and as flank protection or bait against others. The butcher is in with the bulls (hence the champion) and the bruiser with the ironguts. The Leadbelchers despite displaying heroic levels of inaccuracy for me recently will either guard the flank or tackle any monsters/soften elites and the gorger will hopefully turn up in a timely fashion to take out/tie up any war machines/wizards. Its only a thousand points and a small tournament but you gotta be in it to win it. Any suggestions I know ditching the ironfists would save me some points but I tend to use them for an extra attack on the charge or if the AS modifier too high and a shield if charged. Also if units of ogres are in threes then I presume they can rally as single models since one ogre is still greater than 25% of the starting unit strength?

Comments welcomed since the reputation of the Maw is at stake and I've only fought battles against Lizards and Vamps so far with my lads. Plus its been over a decade since I've fought against elves.

Cheers

Caligula
10-05-2007, 12:58
Hmmm....1000 points can be a tricky size for Ogre Kingdoms, and your unit selection is extremely vital at such a small size. You really don't have any points at all you can afford to waste, so with that in mind let's look at the list....

Firstly, the Bruiser. Not a bad build, imho, it should do the trick. He could stand to have a couple Gnoblar Thiefstones on him for some magic resistance, which is always helpful.

The Butcher is okay, my preference for equipment on one is the Skull Mantle and Siegebreaker, but we're skimping on points here so he's okay for now. Maybe add a tooth-gnoblar, at least.

Bull units tend to work best in multiple small units, 3 seeming to work best. I see you've got a unit of 3 already. However, instead of arming them with Iron Fists, go for additional hand weapons. It's a little bit cheaper as an upgrade, and better in game terms, imho. You're Bulls will win or lose combat depending on how many wounds they cause to the enemy. The more attacks, the more possible wounds. Maximise your wounding potential always. So go for additional hand weapons on the Bulls. Also, get rid of the full command, except maybe for the Bellower, he can stay and might come in handy for rallying or whatever.

You could add another Irongut to the unit of them, as in my experience 4 work out pretty well for them. The Bellower is good, and if you want you could possibly consider adding a Standard Bearer to this unit, and maybe even a Gutlord. I'd suggest adding a Gutlord ONLY if you have the points leftover after everything else is bought. He's expensive and only moderately useful, but occasionally can come in very handy. He's a maybe.

I'm not sure I'd go with 36 Gnoblars at the moment. Sure they're cheap and numerous, but 36 of them aren't really accomplishing much. 24 would do the same job, just more efficiently points wise...so drop 12 of the little buggers.

In terms of Leadbelchers, I have only one really tried and true way of using them, and that's having them in pairs, upgrading one to a Bellower. Either drop one of the ones you've got, and just keep the unit of 2, or add another one and make them two units of two, each with a Bellower. Drop the champion like a sack of patatas. Only he's worth even less than a patata, so...just drop him.

Gorger is fine, good stuff, and I'm glad to see you've fit one in 1000 points.

Now, to conclude, what you should be doing is this:
-making your Bull unit more efficient as suggested above. Try and find the points to add a second identical unit of Bulls. In game, make sure they support each other.

-Ironguts are basically fine, and at this point maybe just leave the command upgrades alone...if you feel the need to, add a Bellower, although if your Brusier is in with these guys, it shouldn't be totally necessary.

-Drop the amount of Gnoblar to 24 or so.

-Make your Leadbelchers work for you by making 2 units of 2 each, each with a Bellower, and place them on your flanks.

That's about it really. It seems like a lot of changes to make, but in truth it's not so bad. I find at smaller points levels, OK armies have to be a lot more careful about how they build their units and such, as to have one useless unit is a lot of wasted points.

I'll be back with a mock up list of what your list could look like with a few of the changes I've suggested.

Caligula
10-05-2007, 13:19
Okay, this is the closest I could make it to your current list, so if you do in fact choose to make some of the changes, it's not a big deal...just switch some models around, add a couple more, etc. No massive differences, just imho, hopefully a better use of points, and more efficient units.

Bruiser-
Great Weapon
Heavy Armour
Luck-gnoblar
Kineater
Gnoblar Thiefstone
@197pts.

Butcher-
Tooth-gnoblar
Bangstick
@160pts.

3 Bulls-
additional hand weapons
Bellower
@127pts.

3 Bulls-
additional hand weapons
Bellower
@127pts.
*the Butcher goes with one of these Bull units, but could also stay independant if you wanted

3 Ironguts
@144pts.
*the Bruiser goes with this unit

24 Gnoblar Fighters-
Groinbiter
@50pts.

2 Leadbelchers-
Bellower
@120pts.

Gorger
@75pts.

TOTAL-1000pts.

There you have it. It's essentially the same army you originally posted, only much more effective in what it, and typically all OK armies have to do to win combats....cause wounds, wounds, and more wounds. Like I said, support your units, make them work in concert, and cause as many wounds on an enemy unit as you can, as it's really the only way you're ever going to win combats....it's just how it is with Ogres.

Remember that Ogres are indeed tough, but they aren't THAT tough...particularly the Bulls. Don't be fooled...they can, and will, be taken down like they're nothing but a solid infantry unit if you're not careful. Charge into fights you know you can win if at all possible. How do you know that you can win a given fight? Well, that's easy...you know you can win a fight typically when 2 or 3(or more) of your units are charging and mauling one unit, working togetherm causing massive wounds, breaking and finally running them down. Multiple charges will be your friend, and make a world of difference for your combat resolution.

You really can't afford to lose a unit to something like losing a round of melee combat and being run down, you simply don't have enough to be able to miss one for something like that. Ogres are fast, and in most cases you'll be able to pick your charges. Pick them carefully, and gang up.

Other than that, the rest is pretty much up to you. Try and get a feel for using your Butcher's spells efficiently, as they can often turn the tide and are excellent support spells for your Ogres. Another thing with the Butcher is don't be shy about throwing him into combat along side your Bulls. He's a spellcaster, sure, but he's also an Ogre and is fully capable of dishing it out big time.

Alright, that's enough for now. I hope I've been of some help! I'm not an Ogre player at the moment, but I have a large interest in the army, and see some nice potential in it for me....so be sure to let us know how things go and what you decide to change, if anything, about your list.

Horus0001
10-05-2007, 13:43
maybe relevant but random post:

Played a 1k game against orges with hordes of chaos. 2 units of 2 lead belchers+ a gorger pretty much won the game ;)

TheTrueSloth
10-05-2007, 13:51
Oooh, I like Ogres in 1000pts. Used to have them, they're fun. panic used to be a massive issue, but not so much anymore. Anyway, let us see.

Bruiser - IIRC, Kineater was a Tyrant only upgrade, not sure. Although expensive, have you thought about the Jade Lion/Mawseeker combo? T6 and re-roll psychology tests to balance out the stupidity. 'Tis expensive, but only a couple of points more than the current bruiser you have. Failing that, Wyrdstone Necklance and Great Weapon will do the trick. 5+ ward save on a T5 model, nasty.

I tend to find Butchers a little too expensive in points for 1000pts, but I have seen them work, so go for it. Gut magic really does rock afterall. But then again it is 155pts in a 1000pt ogre army, that does eat a lot of points.

Bulls - ok, lose light armour and ironfists. 8 points a model for a 4+ save in CC only isn't that great. As already said you'd probbly be better off going for maximum kill ratio (can't fight back if there are none alive afterall) so try the additional hand weapons instead. I love them, I think 3 ogres with 12 attacks + impact hits is just SO good its' scary. Lose the standard and champion as well though, a massive amount of points. The champion upgrade isnt really that worth it, the standard is alright, but can give away a lot of points. Keep the Bellower though, you need it for any potential rallying tests.

The ironguts are good, if anything perhaps squeeze in some more if you can find the points? 4 man units used to work well for me as aginst the 5 wide rule, you tend to find either they all fight, or if one gets picked off it doesn't matter. And 12 Great Weapon attacks is just awesome.

Drop the gnoblars down to like 25 or so and lose the champion upgrade. No one ever expects it mind, but 36 with champ is just a large block of rather ineffectual choices IMO normally. The ranks help, but only sometimes as the Ogres almost always outpace your opponents. Unless you're going for a Gnoblar screen, but even then, you don't need so many and the Bicker can be a real issue.

Leadbelchers - lose the champ upgrade. Again if you can find the points, get a 4th one in and split them into 2 units of 2 with bellowers, awesome at deterring fast cavalry. And 2 Ogres can still inflict impact hits.

The Gorger is immense, can't argue with that though. I love him, I think he is superb.

Just my comments though. Has anyone else ever tried to run an Irongut based list before?

Toodles

Caligula
10-05-2007, 13:54
Agreed, in 1000 points(or any points level, I suppose), a Gorger is a great choice. They're just brutal when they work, and they often work very well. I'm thinking it would be very worthwhile to find the points in my 1000 point army list to fit a Gorger in.

Caligula
10-05-2007, 14:34
Hey, sorry if I unintentionally hijacked your thread, Mawchild. It's a character flaw, there's not much I can do.

Well, that's not true. I edited my army list out of here, and made my own thread, so as to not make your confusing and congested. I hope I might have helped a little in any event. Good luck at the tournament!

Mawchild
10-05-2007, 19:42
The reasoning behind the butcher is simply to get the extra dispel dice in case of coming up against a magic heavy force plus with the bang stick I have an extra range attack thats more than 12 inches. The butcher also means that I don't have to rely on the gnoblars for taking out etheral units with rank bonus + outnumbering. Leadbelchers, is there a more frustrating unit in the warhammer world. Last battle they fled after two were killed by skinks without firing a shot only to rally and gut an entire unit of saurus coldone riders and provide the pivitol moment in the game. I don't understand why they couldn't follow the same rules as a cannon firing grapeshot.

Will think more on this.

Cheers

Mawchild
16-05-2007, 14:30
ok finalish version of the 1000pt tournament army.

Bruiser with Heavy Armour and Great Wpn.
Butcher with Bangstick.

4 Bulls with Ironfists, Light Armour and Musician.
4 Ironguts with Standard and Musician.
24 Gnoblars.

3 Leadbelchers with Musician.

Gorger

All for the princely sum of 999 points.

Thought I'd stick the Bruiser with the Bulls and maybe put the butcher in with the Leadbelchers or just roaming around behind the frontline occasionally firing at targets of opportunity.

Any thoughts??

Raffgim
18-05-2007, 10:18
Hehe im starting an ogre army and i plan to go mass ironguts :D i like the models and stats and all but.. i heard that you can't have more ironguts units than bulls? tho i cant find it in the book.. please someone?

btw cool list!

Mawchild
18-05-2007, 11:08
No, you can't have more gnoblars than bulls and an Ogre Kingdoms army must have atleast one unit of bulls but no limits on ironguts. I think that the Greasus Goldtooth special character requires a minimum of two units of ironguts if used but the bull requirement of atleast one unit still applies.