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Da Black Gobbo
11-05-2007, 13:47
Hi there i'm planing to use as main unit to my Orc and goblin army this unit:


--25 Savage Big orcs with 2 choppas and full command, well that unit is 380 points but when charge or is charged the enemy gets 16 Str 5 attacks that if they fighting against average infantry as clan rats imperial state troops darf warriors or so could be 5 deads giving you high chances of wining the combat. But i think is to expensive what do you think?

Vodevil
11-05-2007, 13:53
I don't really like having an uber unit in my armies, I try and spread the wealth. Maybe you like to play differently though, I suggest trying it out.

My main concern would be the speed, usually an uber unit is something fast so it's hard to get away from. Infantry just isn't fast, that will be your biggest problem I think.

FatOlaf
11-05-2007, 14:12
My biggest concern is their lack of armour making that a very tasty VP target for spells, missile fire and warmachines...

Haydog
11-05-2007, 14:13
Because they have frenzy it's too easy for a big unit to get led away from the battle or stuck into something that is a waste of time. So I field two units of 10 with choppas and try to coordiate there charges with bigger blocks of orc boyz.

DarkLord Of Naggaroth
11-05-2007, 16:43
I think it is worth it. When I have fought a unit like that, it just simply destroyed everything in it's path. No character needed, no matter what happened it would win, and no matter what else, that is the most important thing. (I dont mean Win at all costs by the way, I just mean that unstoppabe killing-ness is the main thing.)
though I do think you could drop it to 20, bit of a waste having more.

VampireOfKhorne
11-05-2007, 16:58
Hi there i'm planing to use as main unit to my Orc and goblin army this unit:


--25 Savage Big orcs with 2 choppas and full command, well that unit is 380 points but when charge or is charge the enemy gets 16 Str 5 attacks that if they fighting against average infantry as clan rats imperial state troops darf warriors or so could be 5 deads giving you high chances of wining the combat. But i think is to expensive what do you think?

That unit is horribley expensive, slow, has no armor and can easily be lead around with fast cavalry.

I could either flank charge it with some fast cav, forcing you to win combat then pursue away from the battle, I could shoot them to death (T4 with no armour, even 10 archers over 3-4 turns would make quite a dent), or, if I have the required unit, just charge them with something that will kill them all before they get a chance to fight (Chosen chaos knights, Black knights with vampire, ironguts with a tyrant, etc...).

Against less experienced gamers, yes, it will do amazing, but anyone with any amount of skill and a 60 point fast cav unit will destroy it.

Franco
11-05-2007, 17:09
My biggest concern is their lack of armour making that a very tasty VP target for spells, missile fire and warmachines...

I think FatOlaf has hit the nail on the head, or the rock on the savage orcs in this case!!! I love using a block of 20 SO, but one day they got demolished in 3 turns. I was foolish to make them my center piece and that, after 2 battles of wins, my oponent used the whole capoodle on them. Shot at them, used magic on them and warmachines. Once they were weak he charged at me with some cavalry. Gone in 3 turns and all my tactics were down the drain. Whilst this was happening he was taking on all my gobbos and cavalry with his strong units. I was 15pts away from losing by a massacre. So i would say that it isn't the best idea to use aload of points on one unit and focus on a few units. One strong unit is a good target for the enemy!!!

Vattendroppe
11-05-2007, 18:03
Could ofcourse be worth it if it goes as planned. But according to Murphys law, everything that can go wrong, will go wrong, fortunately that's not entirely true. But with the lack of armour and the slowness they would, as spoke, be easy to flank or things like that. Or they will get shot out. Can be worth it, but I don't think they'll pay off very often. Personally I like to spread the points out also.

gortexgunnerson
11-05-2007, 19:07
I think uber units have to be albe to survive gettign shot at and this one can't. I play a uber ironbreakers unit but it is high is numbers and heavy on armour. If the enemy pours fire on they soak it up and the rest of the army makes it across intact so is pretty good for that tactic. In this case you dont have armour and have the larger base size which means weapons like stone throwers are going to find it pretty hard to miss the unit with a 50% chance of hitting the units (2 hits plus 2" in any direction). I dont think its worth the points especially with frenzy. As noted above 1 cheap unit could pull you out of position for the game or even worse get you flanked and wiped out.

Uber units must be reliable and controllable, they are too expensive to let run around. I think it would be more effective at a unit of 12 of something like that 6*2. If the enemy shoot them other units can get across the board and basicially if you use them with a unit of wolf riders for rank removal with a high number of kills from the SOs. This give a combat punch but not a huge point sink. I would stay stick with boys with armour and a character, cheaper and tougher to bring down.

Da Black Gobbo
11-05-2007, 20:21
Well most things are truth but i'm not a complety idiot that lets his expensive unit without covered flanks, if the enemy shoots at me okay the rest of my army can reach the combat i think playing a 2000 points game it isn't that expensive most of all when in the other flank there are 20 black orcs and in the other one 25 orc warriors with 2 choppas a couple of wolf riders or spider riders covering the flanks a pair of chariots and some spear chukkas shooting.

You all are talking like the orc unit where the only one in the army. I use to play with 3-4 Big infantry blocks and some chariots and light calvary to cover the flank, cheap general with some killy and medium magic. let me do the army list where this unit could go and let's talk then.

ZeroTwentythree
11-05-2007, 20:31
I've been losing faith in frenzied units. Too easy to lead astray or tie up with something intended to bog down units just like the one you describe. I do it all the time, and in spite of knowing to expect those sorts of tactics I still have trouble preventing it from happening with my plague monks.

Da Black Gobbo
11-05-2007, 21:14
Well in the army lists sub forum is the army where this unit should or could be, let me see your opinion folks.

Draeven
12-05-2007, 17:46
I found this last battle i did, I rolled 30 orc boy biguns, with 2 weapons. and then a unit of 15 black orcs. they have to decide wich unit they want to face and then pour fire into that unit of the turn or 3 before the charge / combat.

Its a darned if you do darned if you don't moment. turns out black orcs on the charge with 2 choppas can kill 7 empire spearmen np lol.

thedodgeypanda
12-05-2007, 18:28
MY beast unit of doom is over 1'000+ points and my Dark elf C1N unit if total doom is 800+ points, so a 380 unit of doom isnt scary

Vattendroppe
12-05-2007, 19:34
MY beast unit of doom is over 1'000+ points and my Dark elf C1N unit if total doom is 800+ points, so a 380 unit of doom isnt scary

What kind of unit do you pump up to 1000+ pts!?

Dodgy Ed
12-05-2007, 19:54
I guess it depends on the army you're using, when playing dwarfs I almost always sink a large chunk of points into an uber unit (normally Ironbreakers) but when playing High Elves I tend to prefer lots of small cheap(ish) units

As an aside before we get into a pissing contest over uber-units I think the Ironbreakers I fielded a few weeks back probably take the cake weighing in at two and a half thousand points and using the army book as a movement tray.

damiengore
12-05-2007, 21:18
regular big uns are a better choice IMO, the WS4 can make a big difference and against WS3 opponents will make up for the loss of 5 attacks. its also 3 points cheaper per model and 11 S5 attacks will give front rank killing power against most opponents.

sun tzu
13-05-2007, 07:53
I've been losing faith in frenzied units. Too easy to lead astray or tie up with something intended to bog down units just like the one you describe. I do it all the time, and in spite of knowing to expect those sorts of tactics I still have trouble preventing it from happening with my plague monks.

I find that giant rat packs are great for covering the plague monk units flank.

As for the 25 Savage Big orcs with 2 choppas and full command. . . . . . .

Im 99% sure the choppa rule says that you only get the +1 strength if you are on foot and are using 1 weopon (i think you can use a shield)

Im guessing you are using them in a 5 x 5 block? ? ? that would 16 str 4 attacks at I 2, im just thinking that if you get charged by something hard you will be getting 4 str 4 attacks at I 2:(

Also to use a 25 strong unit of Savage orc Big'un'z you will also have to have a 25+ unit of normal Savage orc'z

Vattendroppe
13-05-2007, 08:52
Im 99% sure the choppa rule says that you only get the +1 strength if you are on foot and are using 1 weopon (i think you can use a shield)

I hate posts that are coloured with no purpose.

But to the post, I'm 99% sure that that rule changed in the new armybook. IIRC you now get plus one strength with two choppas and when mounted.

sun tzu
13-05-2007, 09:17
I hate posts that are coloured with no purpose.

But to the post, I'm 99% sure that that rule changed in the new armybook. IIRC you now get plus one strength with two choppas and when mounted.

Sorry about the colour but the white and black hurts my eye's so i hate all the non coloured posts:p

As for the choppa's i think you are wrong and im sure you cant use 2 hand weapons(or a double handed weapon) wile mounted

Vattendroppe
13-05-2007, 09:21
Sorry about the colour but the white and black hurts my eye's so i hate all the non coloured posts:p

As for the choppa's i think you are wrong and im sure you cant use 2 hand weapons(or a double handed weapon) wile mounted

Guess we can get even bu you colouring my post when you're quoting me then :p

Anyways, I meant you get +1 strenght with one choppa when mounted.

sun tzu
13-05-2007, 09:24
Guess we can get even bu you colouring my post when you're quoting me then :p

Anyways, I meant you get +1 strenght with one choppa when mounted.


I could but wont;)
I will check my orc book when i get home but i think it could be another GW messed up rule

Prince Sairion
13-05-2007, 17:04
Choppas are hand weapons in all respects.
They also confer a +1 strength bonus to models ON FOOT in the first round of every combat.

So additional choppas means an extra attack :D , but won't work when on boarback.:cries:

As for the unit, I'd prefer to take SO boarboys for that amount of points. Purely as an escort for one of the insanely hard SO chracters you can make with the OnG magic items.

Faster frenzied units recover from being dragged around a lot better. :)