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Keeper Of Secrets
13-05-2007, 18:29
I was reading through the Creation of a Space Marine page on the Games Workshop website and I noticed that some of the organs need to be implanted by the time the potential Space Marine is 12, yet it is clearly stated in Fluff that marines only take already great warriors. So my question is this- How would a twelve year old become a great warrior and get spotted by a Space Marine, on the harshest death worlds that many chapters recruit from?

ChaosTicket
13-05-2007, 18:33
Because they are trained from birth to be fighters could be a good answer.

Recruits have to be physically fit, be pre-puberty, and be experienced in fighting. This makes primitive and deathworlds very useful.

Keeper Of Secrets
13-05-2007, 18:42
I realise that deathworlds would be good because of those reasons, but some of the fluff points to aspirants defeating Eldar (in a WD about a year ago) and to killing large packs of viscious beasts. Now i know eldar are pansies, but getting beaten down by a five foot tall kid...

brother alinski
13-05-2007, 18:53
its one of the few parts that dont make sence with the space marines fluff, read the black templers starter sinario where theres that sargent guy who has surved in the impirial guard yet he can become a back templer

ChaosTicket
13-05-2007, 19:38
where did you get that? If It's from a novel, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

MrBigMr
13-05-2007, 19:48
Primary source for space marines is to take kids from their homeworlds for training. But it's also possible to become one at a later age, which is how your average Joe could become a Marine. He just has to rock balls and prove his worth to the chapter.
Or that's what I've heard. I understand that these "later age" SM aren't as strong and tough as those that are made in childhood, but their experience counters this.
As the geneseeds boost the natural evolution of the body, it's perfectly understandable to plant them into kids whos developement is on its way, boosting this and making them bigger and stronger.

bertcom1
13-05-2007, 23:47
its one of the few parts that dont make sence with the space marines fluff, read the black templers starter sinario where theres that sargent guy who has surved in the impirial guard yet he can become a back templer


where did you get that? If It's from a novel, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

It's from here:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/blacktemplars-initiation-rites/1/

If it's published on the GW website, it would seem to be quite official, no?


As the Black Templars were formed from the Imperial Fists at around the same time as the Codex Astartes was being laid down by Guilliman as how the Space Marines should operate, it is possible that Guilliman's ideas on suitable ages for recruitment were not accepted by the Templars. Adult recruitment is possible, however, several notable persons who were recruited as adults had a somewhat less than perfect record, e.g. Luther, Kor Phaeron and probably others. Adult recruits already have a mindset which may not be strong enough to resist temptation. Younger recruits are more easily moulded, which is probably why Guilliman insisted on recruitment beginning so early.

Mulceber
14-05-2007, 00:02
All good points. I've also heard it speculated by some that the gene seed was of higher quality back in the time of the primarchs so they could be a little looser with the regulations about who got made into a space marine and what-not. Not sure how accurate that is, though. -Mulceber

ChaosTicket
14-05-2007, 02:48
Pre-pubescent kids are needed because the space marines organs are only half as effective for those who aren't reaching puberty. Get a pre-teen you get a giant, get an adult, you just get a strong-man.

For another thing is that you need young children to deal with the training, not men half dead already who even with space marine modification only have another hundred years of life, which is considerably less than an Astates.

To summarise you need young people to properly grow the organs, adapt to the gene-modification, and train. Because deathworlds and primitive worlds breed child-warriors with zero chemical or warp mutations
they are absolutely perfect.

He who is doom
28-10-2007, 01:12
plus all the kids from the death worlds will be so rocksolid in there faith that they will follow anywhere

Kage2020
28-10-2007, 15:11
For an obvious, and relatively recent, image, just consider the film 300.

Kage

Argastes
28-10-2007, 15:35
The answer to your question, Keeper of Secrets, is that the 4th Edition Marine codex contains sloppily-written fluff that ignores the background established in previous editions. It's always been the case that the Marines don't actually recruit the "great warriors" of a world; those would be adult males who would be too old to become Marines. Instead they recruit the most promising young warriors of a world, the adolescents who would become their world's great warriors if they were allowed to live out their lives as normal instead of being recruited by the Marines. But the 4th Edition Codex doesn't make this clear, and instead only uses the ambiguous term "best and bravest scions of their world", which many people take to mean "best and bravest warriors" even though "scion" does not mean warrior, it means inheritor or heir. Which to me does actually suggest young people who have not yet attained adulthood, and would be the "next generation" who will inherit the previous generation's position as adult warriors once they grow old enough. But it's not made clear, so lots of people assume that "best and bravest scions" refers to adult warriors, even though EVERY previous Marine codex and background source has made it clear that Marines MUST be recruited as adolescents for the gene-seeds to work. The gene-seeds work in conjunction with the natural body development that occurs during puberty, so if you try to implant them in a recruit who isn't still in the early stages of puberty (probably 14 at the latest, and even that is pushing it, 12 is more realistic), then they don't work properly.

In the case of incidents where adults have been turned into Space Marines, it seems that this was done using alternative methods which are less effective than the gene-seeds (i.e., augmentative surgery), resulting in warriors who are better than a normal human but still not up to Marine standards. This also seems to have been much more common in the HH period, and is very rare in the 41st millennium.

Indrid Khold
28-10-2007, 21:23
I realise that deathworlds would be good because of those reasons, but some of the fluff points to aspirants defeating Eldar (in a WD about a year ago) and to killing large packs of viscious beasts. Now i know eldar are pansies, but getting beaten down by a five foot tall kid...

Well if the kid managed to get inside an autocannon turret or something ...


That would be a pretty cool story, actually. Some random kid getting played up to the Blood Angels or whoever as being so awesome he killed 4 Howling Banshees in single combat, when really it was just a fluke and a really big gun...

malika
28-10-2007, 22:40
its one of the few parts that dont make sence with the space marines fluff, read the black templers starter sinario where theres that sargent guy who has surved in the impirial guard yet he can become a back templer

The Black Templars and various other Chapters use pre Heresy methods of recruiting new Marines, and basicly take candidates from an adult population.

Most Chapters though take recruits from pre-teen boys. They need to have strong bodies and minds, as in strong enough to survive the training, no other things are really needed. Warrior skills, tactical thinking and all those things are taught by training.

cpl_hicks
28-10-2007, 22:52
The gene-seeds work in conjunction with the natural body development that occurs during puberty, so if you try to implant them in a recruit who isn't still in the early stages of puberty (probably 14 at the latest, and even that is pushing it, 12 is more realistic), then they don't work properly.

TheSoul Drinkers took recruits at "the upper limits" of the age for implantation, but they did go bad, so i would guess that over say 14 you have a higher chance of turning nasty

Nazguire
28-10-2007, 22:56
TheSoul Drinkers took recruits at "the upper limits" of the age for implantation, but they did go bad, so i would guess that over say 14 you have a higher chance of turning nasty

Doesn't mean that at all. The Soul Drinkers went traitor for reasons completely unrelated to gene-seed or Chapter doctrine. Bad circumstances and oppurtunistic leaders.

cpl_hicks
28-10-2007, 22:58
no the soul drinkers recruits went bad, the chapter got recruits, (after they themselves rebelled) from last stands all over the Imperium, trained them up and they then rebelled against the chapter

Kage2020
28-10-2007, 23:40
To be fair, the same playing around with age limits seems to have been included in Goto's DoW novels...

Kage

Chilltouch
28-10-2007, 23:41
They probably gather together boys for tournaments on Deathworlds and put them through a series of tests. First, put them through a test they must survive and then make them face each other in battles to the death in dozens of different tournaments - then, they probably just rate the boys and collect the best, while the rest go back into the wilderness to grow up, have sex with women and produce future generations with the genetic traits of the winners of the older tournaments.

Eventually, you'd just end up with the best of the best of the best after ten thousand years of using this method.

Argastes
29-10-2007, 00:10
They probably gather together boys for tournaments on Deathworlds and put them through a series of tests. First, put them through a test they must survive and then make them face each other in battles to the death in dozens of different tournaments - then, they probably just rate the boys and collect the best, while the rest go back into the wilderness to grow up, have sex with women and produce future generations with the genetic traits of the winners of the older tournaments.

Eventually, you'd just end up with the best of the best of the best after ten thousand years of using this method.

Some Chapters, such as the Blood Angels, do seem to use a method similar to this one; others, such as the Space Wolves, simply observe the natives in their "normal" battles against each other (i.e. battles that they would fight anyway, not as part of a tournament) and occasionally select a youth who fought especially bravely.

Captain Stern
29-10-2007, 02:21
Well if the kid managed to get inside an autocannon turret or something ...


That would be a pretty cool story, actually. Some random kid getting played up to the Blood Angels or whoever as being so awesome he killed 4 Howling Banshees in single combat, when really it was just a fluke and a really big gun...

I don't see why this would be 'impossible'. Sometimes in 40k, out of all the billions upon billions of humans in the galaxy, especially on hellish death worlds (which are basically just big arenas), you get really nasty, natural, KILLERS. Ok, to make sense in 40k Eldar need to be at least a little 'badass' but this doesn't mean that a special space marine recruit couldn't come along every now and then and beat an aspect warrior or three.

Take Ragnar Blackmane in the novels. He's around 12 or 13. He's fighting in his first real major battle. He's so good everyone else moves as in slow motion. He turns the tide of the battle single-handed. Shortly after he's become a space marine he defeats a senior chaos space marine commander.

Sometimes there are diamonds in the human rough that blow away the Eldar.

Nazguire
29-10-2007, 03:44
I don't see why this would be 'impossible'. Sometimes in 40k, out of all the billions upon billions of humans in the galaxy, especially on hellish death worlds (which are basically just big arenas), you get really nasty, natural, KILLERS. Ok, to make sense in 40k Eldar need to be at least a little 'badass' but this doesn't mean that a special space marine recruit couldn't come along every now and then and beat an aspect warrior or three.

Take Ragnar Blackmane in the novels. He's around 12 or 13. He's fighting in his first real major battle. He's so good everyone else moves as in slow motion. He turns the tide of the battle single-handed. Shortly after he's become a space marine he defeats a senior chaos space marine commander.

Sometimes there are diamonds in the human rough that blow away the Eldar.

Yeah I agree with this. I don't understand why people on here seem to think that by definition Eldar are going to automatically trump all humans, no matter who or what they are, in combat or war or whatever.

As Stern said, sometimes there are 'diamonds in the rough' that have special talent or abilities that lets them defeat opponents other people would usually assume would beat the challenger hands down. Ragnar is an example.

Supremearchmarshal
29-10-2007, 10:57
TheSoul Drinkers took recruits at "the upper limits" of the age for implantation, but they did go bad, so i would guess that over say 14 you have a higher chance of turning nasty

I remember that the older fluff said around 14 is the limit, but you could implant the organs in older people, too. The problem is that they wouldn't grow enough, and while they would become superior to guardsmen, they would be weak compared to normal SM.

Emperor's Grace
29-10-2007, 20:59
others, such as the Space Wolves, simply observe the natives in their "normal" battles against each other (i.e. battles that they would fight anyway, not as part of a tournament) and occasionally select a youth who fought especially bravely.

I think that there's a story out there on this which has them acting as "Valkyries", plucking warriors from battle (or the field of dead) following a mortal wound and reviving them with their superior medical science.

Indrid Khold
29-10-2007, 21:08
Sometimes there are diamonds in the human rough that blow away the Eldar.

Um ... no.

I'm sorry, it just is NOT possible for a feral world 12 year-old human to defeat even one Aspect Warrior, let alone three, in a "fair fight." Maybe, maybe a Guardian, but even that's pushing it.

Eldar have superhuman reflexes, and even their basic soldiers have weapons that can tear anyone wearing anything less than carapace armor to pieces in less than a second. They've also got pretty gnarly armor, if you take into consideration that a high-tech laser rifle can only put a Guardian down for the count one time in three. A Dire Avenger or Howling Banshee can even take a bolter round to the chest and walk away. A Striking Scorpion can shrug off a pulse rifle shot. Add to that the fact that their entire lives revolve around stategy and combat, and I don't see how even the most rough and tumble deathworld kid could kill one. Technology + hundreds of years of training and experience = virtually impossible for a prebubescent kid with a knife to kill.

As I said, it would have to be a total fluke. Like the kid happens to find a heavy bolter lying on the ground and manages to lift it into a firing position. Or the Eldar's helmet has been torn off and he's already wounded, or something. That's realistic, and it also makes the tale more dramatic.


... but that's all really neither here nor there.

Chilltouch
29-10-2007, 22:02
Well, it is going out on a limb - Eldar aren't just random villagers. However much the Space Marine recruits are 300-style Spartan wannabes, they are not strong enough to take down any grown Eldar. Seeing as Eldar are meant to have no bodyfat whatsoever, they're probably stronger than a rough and scrawny human kid. Oh, and faster, and more experienced. A Guardian could easily hold his own against any pathetic human child.

Let's be honest - get a kid who has lived out in the wilderness for all his life and get him to face, say, a Dire Avenger. He's dead. Dark Reaper? He's dead. Wailing Banshee? Dead. Swooping Hawk? Dead. They're all veterans with hundreds of years of perfection of their techniques.

Maybe if the Eldar's at a large disadvantage, the kid might have a chance of winning. However much of a perfect diamond and ultimate soldier that child might be - he's still a child and he's going up against a superior lifeform with skill that makes human veterans look like conscripts. He wouldn't stand a chance. He couldn't somehow snap their necks with single punches, he couldn't wrestle them to the ground, he couldn't tear out their hearts and show them to the crowds.

Could a tough little twelve-year-old win in a fight against a martial arts master or a fully trained soldier with a assault rifle in his arms? I don't think so.

Captain Stern
29-10-2007, 22:04
Eldar, and Aspect warriors in particular, being uber-hard and better fighters than space marines e.t.c. is an invention of some of the members of this board that seems to have spread over the years. Ok, I can accept that they're decent fighters (even guardians) and that as a rule your average Eldar is a much better fighter than your average human. But there's not much in the background that I'm aware of that paints them as these super warriors that some here maintain they are.



Um ... no.

I'm sorry, it just is NOT possible for a feral world 12 year-old human to defeat even one Aspect Warrior, let alone three, in a "fair fight." Maybe, maybe a Guardian, but even that's pushing it.

Eldar have superhuman reflexes, and even their basic soldiers have weapons that can tear anyone wearing anything less than carapace armor to pieces in less than a second. They've also got pretty gnarly armor, if you take into consideration that a high-tech laser rifle can only put a Guardian down for the count one time in three. A Dire Avenger or Howling Banshee can even take a bolter round to the chest and walk away. A Striking Scorpion can shrug off a pulse rifle shot. Add to that the fact that their entire lives revolve around stategy and combat, and I don't see how even the most rough and tumble deathworld kid could kill one. Technology + hundreds of years of training and experience = virtually impossible for a prebubescent kid with a knife to kill.

Their entire lives are not revolved around strategy and combat. Exarchs, yes. Aspect Warriors, no.

Eldar armour isn't impenetrable. Besides it has gaps, weak points e.t.c. Even in the game to which you've made so many references to Eldar armour isn't all that hot.

The kid might have a sword or an axe? On some worlds he might have a chainsword, a mono filament blade or even a power weapon.

I'm not saying it would be common for such a human to accomplish this. I'd go as far as to say perhaps maybe 90-99% (I still haven't really decided yet how tough Aspect Warriors really are) of space marine recruits would fall to an aspect warrior. Concerning those in the 1-10% though I'm not so sure.

MrBigMr
29-10-2007, 22:12
Just another thing to prove that to GW, the Eldar are nothing more than clay pigeon for everyone to shoot at. They can never win, just die, because they're a 'dying race.'

As for kicking Eldar, in one game a junior officer (with a bolter) fought with a Swooping Hawk exarch (with sun rifle) for 4 player turns until he was able to kill the Eldar. By all logic, the guy should have been long dead, but ha-ha, he won. And then a ranger sniped the JO's silly ass.
But ok, that's TT not fluff.

Chilltouch
29-10-2007, 22:15
There's not much background, no, but there's a lot of logic. You've got a race of perfectionist Space Elves. Now, elves are by stereotype always faster and more agile and longer lived than any human. Not to mention that the Eldar have no bodyfat, leaving them with mostly muscle - they're probably just as strong, if not stronger than humans.

Now, let's see - a creature superior to humanity, that follows the 'path of the warrior', that lives for thousands of years and is known for being a bunch of perfectionists. And seeing how elusive the Eldar Craftworlds are - so elusive the few remaining ones have survived for thousands of years - this is almost the perfect cocktail for the most skilful warriors that exist.

Of course there's no background to back them up - there's not Game Workshop's poster-boys, unlike the Space Marines, who are constantly pictured as mega-hyped super-warriors whose spit can kill.

We're talking about warriors who could just grab the kid and snap their neck in a second, whatever their speciality happens to be.

trigger
29-10-2007, 22:18
Um ... no.

I'm sorry, it just is NOT possible for a feral world 12 year-old human to defeat even one Aspect Warrior, let alone three, in a "fair fight." Maybe, maybe a Guardian, but even that's pushing it.

Eldar have superhuman reflexes, and even their basic soldiers have weapons that can tear anyone wearing anything less than carapace armor to pieces in less than a second. They've also got pretty gnarly armor, if you take into consideration that a high-tech laser rifle can only put a Guardian down for the count one time in three. A Dire Avenger or Howling Banshee can even take a bolter round to the chest and walk away. A Striking Scorpion can shrug off a pulse rifle shot. Add to that the fact that their entire lives revolve around stategy and combat, and I don't see how even the most rough and tumble deathworld kid could kill one. Technology + hundreds of years of training and experience = virtually impossible for a prebubescent kid with a knife to kill.

As I said, it would have to be a total fluke. Like the kid happens to find a heavy bolter lying on the ground and manages to lift it into a firing position. Or the Eldar's helmet has been torn off and he's already wounded, or something. That's realistic, and it also makes the tale more dramatic.


... but that's all really neither here nor there.

or thuss said striking skorpion gets so caried away with butchering the populas of a village that he simplt ignors the 12 year old in favor of the 30 year old with the sword or axe.

trigger
29-10-2007, 22:26
.

Could a tough little twelve-year-old win in a fight against a martial arts master or a fully trained soldier with a assault rifle in his arms? I don't think so.

ahh but could a twelve year old that has studied martial arts since he/she has been able to walk be able to take down a soilder , boxer ,wrestler?

simple answer yes

ever one seems to miss to idea of a death world kid

I personaly wouldnt fancy my chances against a 12 year old viking , moungle ,spartan, im twenty five studied martial arts and i can admit that each one of these would kick the stuffing out of me or anyone i know of my age
these kids as you call them would have the same muscle mass as a mid weight boxer would no how to use it or they would simply be dead.

Captain Stern
29-10-2007, 22:34
There's not much background, no, but there's a lot of logic. You've got a race of perfectionist Space Elves. Now, elves are by stereotype always faster and more agile and longer lived than any human. Not to mention that the Eldar have no bodyfat, leaving them with mostly muscle - they're probably just as strong, if not stronger than humans.

Now, let's see - a creature superior to humanity, that follows the 'path of the warrior', that lives for thousands of years and is known for being a bunch of perfectionists. And seeing how elusive the Eldar Craftworlds are - so elusive the few remaining ones have survived for thousands of years - this is almost the perfect cocktail for the most skilful warriors that exist.

Of course there's no background to back them up - there's not Game Workshop's poster-boys, unlike the Space Marines, who are constantly pictured as mega-hyped super-warriors whose spit can kill.

We're talking about warriors who could just grab the kid and snap their neck in a second, whatever their speciality happens to be.

I understand where you're coming from although I don't agree about the strength bit (Eldar and strength is a complicated issue, I think). Oh, and having no body fat isn't always an advantage (chubby Roman gladiators for example).

But anyway, try considering my argument from a numbers point of view. Are you telling me that out of the TRILLIONS of humans in the galaxy, many of whom live on death worlds, there simply can't be some 13 or 14 year old kids out there who could beat an aspect warrior in a fair fight?

I also don't think the 300 example is particularly effective in demonstrating what these kids might be like. They'd be more like young Fremen in the book Dune. A Sardaukar terror troop was said to be roughly 10 times more effective in a fight than a normal soldier. When they fought the fremen the few victories they had were against these fremen kids and the fremen aged and sick, and dearly bought victories at that. I think an especially hard space marine recruit might have been similar to the deadliest of these young Fremen, more than a match for an Aspect Warrior.

Captain Stern
29-10-2007, 22:40
Could a tough little twelve-year-old win in a fight against a martial arts master or a fully trained soldier with a assault rifle in his arms? I don't think so.

Why do you assume they're not trained fighters just because they're young?

cpl_hicks
29-10-2007, 22:50
then, they probably just rate the boys and collect the best, while the rest go back into the wilderness to grow up, have sex with women and produce future generations with the genetic traits of the winners of the older tournaments.

In Angels of Darkness (i think), when a recruit fails a test they kill him, because he isnt worthy, and he can never return to his family

Maidel
29-10-2007, 22:52
In Angels of Darkness (i think), when a recruit fails a test they kill him, because he isnt worthy, and he can never return to his family

Or they change him into a thrall who has to spend the rest of his eternity cleaning space marines boots (litterally!)

OR if you are a space wolf you dont even make it back to the fang to be killed...

GreenDracoBob
30-10-2007, 02:45
Why do you assume they're not trained fighters just because they're young?

It's not so much that he isn't trained or hardened by his past experiences. A 12 year-old is not as physically developed as a full grown Eldar or otherwise. An awkward stage of development added to a shorter reach leads me to assume that an Aspect Warrior seems to have an advantage.

Besides, the 12 years of life of the human is shorter than an Eldar could (and most likely would) train.

Argastes
30-10-2007, 04:33
But anyway, try considering my argument from a numbers point of view. Are you telling me that out of the TRILLIONS of humans in the galaxy, many of whom live on death worlds, there simply can't be some 13 or 14 year old kids out there who could beat an aspect warrior in a fair fight?

Yes, unfortunately, I think that's probably correct. It doesn't matter how many trillions of humans there are; if the absolute upper limit of fighting skill for a 14-year-old boy is lower than the absolute lower limit of fighting skill for an aspect warrior (which I think is probably the case), then no, not even a SINGLE one of the galaxy's countless 14-year-old boys, even the ones raised on deathworlds, could beat an aspect warrior in a "fair fight". Assuming a "fair fight" means close combat with comparable weapons, no tricks, no secret advantages, no quirks of bad luck, no banana peels for the aspect warrior to slip on, etcetera. It doesn't matter how many humans there are, because it's not like humanity is statistically likely to produce rare super-fighters when the population size gets large enough; it's not like there's some quirk of human heredity that means one child in a trillion will be a freakishly good fighter at age 13, so if you have enough people, that one-in-a-trillion child must be in there somewhere. Doesn't work that. Your argument is like saying, "Out of all the world's trillions of ants, there must be at least ONE that's six feet long!" That's beyond the absolute upper limit of variation in ants, just as a 13-year-old boy who can out-fight an Aspect Warrior is beyond the absolute upper limit of variation in humanity.


ever one seems to miss to idea of a death world kid

I personaly wouldnt fancy my chances against a 12 year old viking , moungle ,spartan, im twenty five studied martial arts and i can admit that each one of these would kick the stuffing out of me or anyone i know of my age
these kids as you call them would have the same muscle mass as a mid weight boxer would no how to use it or they would simply be dead.

That's not true at all. A person isn't biologically capable of putting on muscle mass like that until late in puberty, no matter HOW harsh their upbringing would be. It doesn't matter if they were raised on a planet that makes Catachan look like a rose garden; a 12-year-old kid is NOT capable of developing muscle mass like that unless there's something wrong with him. Period, end of story.

A 12-year-old Mongol or Spartan kid might be able to whip you, but if he did, it wouldn't be because he was built like a "mid weight boxer"; it would be because his upbringing has made him fierce and scrappy and tough to a degree that would catch you by surprise and let him do something disabling before you could put your physical superiority to good use. And I don't think an Aspect Warrior--who has dedicated the entirety of their superhuman skill, unfathomable perfectionism, and incredibly long life to the art of war--could be caught by something like that and go down saying, "Damn, he looked scrawny but he bit me and then kneed my groin before I could grab him!"

You're also probably overestimating these kids. Although one of them might sometimes get the upper hand by surprising you like I mentioned above, it's ludicrous to categorically declare that they could "kick the stuffing" out of you or anyone you know your age (unless you, and everyone you know, are quite clumsy and out of shape). Most of what differentiates the children of harsh societies from the children of sedentary societies is their increased tolerance for deprivation and hardship, and the fact that they will be thoroughly immersed in learning martial/hunting skills... not some kind of extraordinary physical strength that defies human biology. They're still going to be significantly smaller, weaker, and have a shorter reach than a fit adult.

Chilltouch
30-10-2007, 06:45
A wise man called PrecinctOmega oncee informed me of how saying things like 'the child learned to ride / dance / shoot before he could walk' was absolute rubbish. And I think it applies here too. Because, let's be honest, even after a kid's able to walk, do you really think that a kid would be spending the time required to study martial arts? They'd probably think it was a big game and if they didn't, they'd find it boring and lose focus.

Sure, kids in the right situation can beat the snot out of adults - however, that mainly because of one factor: underestimation. Nothing more, nothing less. However arrogant and snooty the Eldar may be, I am quite sure that the Aspect Warriors know their stuff and that even some human children can be possible threats. Of course, it isn't impossible for the kid to defeat the Aspect Warrior but in that case, the kid will have to rely on luck more than anything else.

I'm scrawny and I would say I would have a chance against a 'deathworld trained' 12-year-old. Remember, it's just a kid, that's probably about five foot or less as well. As soon as you know not to underestimate the child, he loses all previous advantages. He may be stronger and tougher than any other kid his age, but adults are bigger, faster and stronger. Physically superior in almost every way.

EDIT - And by the way - 12 years, i'd say that's probably what a Guardian would put into training for their self-defence. When you're on an artificial world, avoiding almost everyone and everything in space, you can spend a lot of time learning and practicing.

Supremearchmarshal
30-10-2007, 12:49
Medieval knights started training at 7 years of age. So a feral world kid could be expected to be reasonably skilled in combat, and most likely more than a match for a peasant or average modern-day Joe. However, there's no way the kid would match an adult knight or an experienced soldier or mercenary, unless the aforementioned strokes of luck, underestimating, banana peels etc.

An Aspect Warrior is an Eldar devoted to the path of the warrior and as such i believe it is safe to assume he is in every way a superior fighter to a medieval knight. In fact, aspect warriors are more comparable (though not quite as good as) to space marines than any ordinary humans. And the Aspect Warrior has far superior wargear to any feral worlder. Besides, if the kid found an Autocannon to shoot the Eldar, why would that make him a good SM recruit?

No, I just can't see it happening barring outrageously good luck for the kid.

Chilltouch
30-10-2007, 19:01
Yes, but Medieval Knights aren't at their fighting peak at the age of 12, which is when kids are ripe for Space Marinization. Even after five years of practice sword-fighting and helping their knight mount horses, squires, or knights in training, could probably still be knocked aside by an adult peasent or modern-day person.

Maidel
30-10-2007, 20:59
It does say in the latest HH book that 15 year olds were able to be changed into marines and neither of the two that were mentioned in the book were 'late developers' or any less marines when they were finished.

Higherlander
31-10-2007, 12:27
Luck. Right time, right place. A 12-14 year old could certainly take out a handful of aspect warriors.
Drive over them with a vehicle.
Plant a proximity mine. Wait for kaboom.
Fire a frag missile from a turret at Howling Banshees.
Fire a heavy bolter from a turret at Howling Banshees.
Fire a dull flashlight from a turret at Howling Banshees.
All of them possible, and not overly unrealistic, in an unrealistic future galaxy.

Supremearchmarshal
31-10-2007, 13:00
Luck. Right time, right place. A 12-14 year old could certainly take out a handful of aspect warriors.
Drive over them with a vehicle.
Plant a proximity mine. Wait for kaboom.
Fire a frag missile from a turret at Howling Banshees.
Fire a heavy bolter from a turret at Howling Banshees.
Fire a dull flashlight from a turret at Howling Banshees.
All of them possible, and not overly unrealistic, in an unrealistic future galaxy.

True, but none of them would make him a good SM recruit.

thearchiver
31-10-2007, 13:20
Go watch some 12 year old Shaolin monks in action and come back and say a normal adult could knock them down.

Argastes
31-10-2007, 15:44
Luck. Right time, right place. A 12-14 year old could certainly take out a handful of aspect warriors.
Drive over them with a vehicle.
Plant a proximity mine. Wait for kaboom.
Fire a frag missile from a turret at Howling Banshees.
Fire a heavy bolter from a turret at Howling Banshees.
Fire a dull flashlight from a turret at Howling Banshees.
All of them possible, and not overly unrealistic, in an unrealistic future galaxy.

Right, no-one ever said it would be impossible for any of these things to happen. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about whether an extraordinarily tough 12-year-old could ever defeat an Aspect Warrior in personal combat, not if he happened to be manning a heavy weapon and they happened to wander into his sights. Obviously putting the kid behind a vehicle-mounted heavy weapon gives him an edge, if he can figure out how to use it; that's not relevant to this discussion.


Go watch some 12 year old Shaolin monks in action and come back and say a normal adult could knock them down.

Do you have some video of these guys you could show us?

Indrid Khold
31-10-2007, 20:00
Eldar, and Aspect warriors in particular, being uber-hard and better fighters than space marines e.t.c. is an invention of some of the members of this board that seems to have spread over the years. Ok, I can accept that they're decent fighters (even guardians) and that as a rule your average Eldar is a much better fighter than your average human. But there's not much in the background that I'm aware of that paints them as these super warriors that some here maintain they are.





An Aspect Warrior is a super soldier, according to all the fluff that's ever been published about them. That's the point of Aspect Warriors.

A Striking Scorpion is as strong as a Space Marine, and has (less bulky) armor that is just as effective.

A Howling Banshee is equipped with a power weapon as standard equipment, not to mention the Banshee helm. Though they can't compete with Space Marines in terms of strength, their weapons deprive the marines of their chief asset: power armor.

Warp Spiders have snazzy armor, teleportation abilities beyond anything humans can do, and weapons that will kill you dead if you're not wearing power armor.

Even the humble Dire Avengers have weapons that are effective against Space Marines (strength 4 vs toughness 4 in game terms), armor that is effective against Space Marine weapons, they're faster, and their Exarchs give them all kinds of special abilities on the battlefield. And let's not forget that the different Aspects always work together, so as to make the most of their specialized abilities.

Both in fluff and in rules, Aspect Warriors can easily compete with Space Marines. And I don't think anyone here would honestly argue that a single 12 year-old could kill a Space Marine in a "fair fight."

Supremearchmarshal
31-10-2007, 22:14
Both in fluff and in rules, Aspect Warriors can easily compete with Space Marines. And I don't think anyone here would honestly argue that a single 12 year-old could kill a Space Marine in a "fair fight."

Maybe the kid's a Sensei - S9 hit! :evilgrin:

Argastes
31-10-2007, 22:49
Eldar, and Aspect warriors in particular, being uber-hard and better fighters than space marines e.t.c. is an invention of some of the members of this board that seems to have spread over the years. Ok, I can accept that they're decent fighters (even guardians) and that as a rule your average Eldar is a much better fighter than your average human. But there's not much in the background that I'm aware of that paints them as these super warriors that some here maintain they are.

Oof.... I must have overlooked this.... Captain Stern, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but if you don't think Aspect Warriors qualify as super-soldiers just as much as Space Marines (if not more so), then I'm sorry, but you don't know much about Aspect Warriors. Saying that the background doesn't paint them as super-soldiers just proves that you haven't read the relevant background. The Eldar fluff says that when Eldar fully focus themselves on mastering one activity, they attain a perfection in that activity which is beyond human capabilities--even beyond human comprehension. And Aspect Warriors are Eldar who have fully focussed themselves on war. According to the CI: "The Guardians are respected by all enemy forces they meet, but they are as nothing compared to the Aspect Warriors. These masked warriors fight with the ferocity of daemons and their fighting skills exceed those of the Guardians many times over. To human eyes these warriors exhibit supernatural speed and dexterity. To the Eldar the Aspect Warriors merely represent what an Eldar can do when he devotes his entire powers to one purpose. The Eldar possess minds and bodies honed to a pitch of perfection impossible for humans to imagine. When an Eldar devotes his or her full self to a single pursuit, then he does so with a mystical intensity that transforms the individual utterly. The Aspect Warriors are ultimate warriors in mind and body, their entire being is absorbed with the aspect of the Eldar character that lusts for blood and death. This is why the Eldar Aspect Warriors are so dangerous."

They might not be quite as physically tough or strong as a Marine, but they are at LEAST as fast and as skilled (probably more so, actually) and as dedicated, and their equipment is superior in many ways. These guys are super-warriors by any reasonable definition.

Supremearchmarshal
01-11-2007, 11:34
They might not be quite as physically tough or strong as a Marine, but they are at LEAST as fast and as skilled (probably more so, actually) and as dedicated, and their equipment is superior in many ways. These guys are super-warriors by any reasonable definition.

Well this is disputable since in the fluff they seem generally inferior to the SM, and as for equipment - well they have similar or better weapons, but the SM have better armour and their very bodies are engineered for warfare. Of course, the fluff does generally have a pro-SM bias.

Nonetheless, I completely agree that they are super-warriors compared to the vast majority of the galaxy's population.