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CommanderCax
14-05-2007, 13:14
Dear all.

Yesterday I got my ass handed by our 'new' Bretonnian player.

First of all I have to say that we are a group of five gamers and everyone of us has about 2-3 armies each. So except Tomb Kings and Ogre Kingdoms every army is represented by one of us. Unfortunately we do not have the time to play that often, but we are quite expeirenced as we all play since the beginning of 4th edition (some even 3rd).
Our Empire/Dwarf player purchsed a Bretonnian army recently (more than one year ago actually..) and played a couple of games against us. He can be considered as an average to good general with about as much wins as he has loses when playing with Dwarfs or Empire.
But with his new Bretonnians he kicked the crap out of everyone of us (except our Vampire Counts player who did not had the pleasure yet to play him). Only once he lost with his Bretonians as I played a 6th ed. Goblin army against him and had multiple war machines, fanatics, wolf riders chariots/pump wagons and shamans. In all other cases he had not only won, but massacred us literally. The Dark Elves and Lizardmen did not stood a chance and my Skaven neither.
In my opinion it is almost impossible to have a chance with a 'normal' and balanced army (as the Dark Elves and Lizardmen armies were) and even my tooled up Skaven (Clan Skryre...), just made up to counter him, were cut to pieces. Jezzails were fine, Ratling Gun and Warp Fire Thrower misfired (as always) on first and second shot respectively and the warlocks only fried themselves more or less or ran for cover. A Clanrat unit even charged his Pegasus Knights (after a failed charge by them) and I was not able to break them... He had five units of Knights and three Damsels for very able counter magic.

Now you may wonder whether I only want to whine how overpowered and imbalanced the Bretonnians are, but actually there are certainly enough threads of this already I suppose.

I want to tackle him with my Chaos army next time (my Dogs of War army is really too weak I fear...). So what do you recommend and want kind of advice or experince do you tacticians have for me? I have almost everything a Chaos army can have. I am also not restricted to a certain god. I can field anything from Chaos Dragon to Ungor and from Shaggoth to Marauder Horsemen. It should be Chaos mortals though. I have simply no idea how to counter him with Chaos. In case of Beasts of Chaos I am thinking about a Shaggoth of Slaanesh and three Shamans of Slaanesh, but I need an advice what to do with Hordes of Chaos...

Please help me!

With desperate Regards,
CC

Vattendroppe
14-05-2007, 14:15
I'm not that experienced with chaos, but wouldn't the slaanesh steeds be able to play the heck of him?

VampireOfKhorne
14-05-2007, 17:03
Your best bet would probably be to beat him with speed.

4 Exalted champions on Steeds of Slaanesh (give 1 the bindings of slaanesh for taking out damsels. Give all 4 flails), mounted deamonettes, marauder horsemen w/ throwing axes, lots of warhounds. Just move around, avoiding him and feeding him warhound units until your in a good position, then charge a unit of knights with all 4 exalteds and some other unit to break ranks and net the flank/rear bonus.

Sasha
14-05-2007, 17:13
high strength stuff to crack his knights i guess

maybe some spawn of slaanesh too, if you can charge them into a unit of knights (and they are pretty fast) they will pin them down nicely while you prepare to charge.

T10
14-05-2007, 17:28
An army consisting of only Beast Chariots should do the trick...

But with an actual army?

I saw a brilliant Orc & Goblin tactic vs. Undead some time ago. The massive Orc army managed to draw fast enemy units on the flanks towards the center by feeding them a couple of units of fast cavalry. This compressed the undead army towards the center,allowing the slower orc infantry to outflank the otherwise speedier fast cavalry.

-T10

CommanderCax
15-05-2007, 08:26
Your best bet would probably be to beat him with speed.

4 Exalted champions on Steeds of Slaanesh (give 1 the bindings of slaanesh for taking out damsels. Give all 4 flails), mounted deamonettes, marauder horsemen w/ throwing axes, lots of warhounds. Just move around, avoiding him and feeding him warhound units until your in a good position, then charge a unit of knights with all 4 exalteds and some other unit to break ranks and net the flank/rear bonus.

I'm not that experienced with chaos, but wouldn't the slaanesh steeds be able to play the heck of him?

Good idea. I already thought to go with Slaanesh or maybe Khorne. A unit of Daemonettes on Steeds of Slaanesh is certainly a must and I probably will take a Lord on a Steed equipped with Bindings of Slaanesh and halberd as well. Maybe a unit of Chaos Warriors Undivided led by an Exalted Champion with Helm of Many Eyes and DHW.


high strength stuff to crack his knights i guess

maybe some spawn of slaanesh too, if you can charge them into a unit of knights (and they are pretty fast) they will pin them down nicely while you prepare to charge.

Spawn of Slaanesh is a must indeed. I will probably take some Dragon Ogres, a Chaos Chariot and a unit of Chaos Knights for the mentioned high strength attacks.

Any more ideas and advices?

Falcon
15-05-2007, 10:21
I also struggle against my regular opponent's Brett army. (I play lizzies or WE's)

The problem is armour and charge distance and charge bonus. The weakness is small numbers of costly models.

My aim is armour piercing attacks, preferably ranged (shooting or magic) as well as movement disruptors (Either things that can outcharge or flank the knights or tar pits that can absorb a charge and set them up for a flank charge or just tie up an expensive unit.) Preferably a goodcombination, putting pressure on them to move under fire.

They are not very manuverable so it is possible to move around them or bait and flank them. Brets are a bit of a 1 trick pony ;) but it's a damn good trick.

I unfortunately also find that it's difficult to keep a balanced list and tend to start specializing when I know I'm facing Bretts.

MarcoPollo
15-05-2007, 15:10
I've had alot of success with chaos vs bretonians. At 1.5k I've not lost to a bretonian army.

I use alot of warhounds to stall, redirect his charges. His normal charge is 18", but if you make him roll 3 dice to pursue, that works out only to on average 9-12" and at worst 18". Then I set up for counter charges on their flanks.

Mounted demonettes are great but can be fragile to bowfire. Screemers/fuuries are also good at Damsel hunting and warmachine killing.

I take a huge unit of marauders with light armor/hw/shield and an exalted with Helm of many eyes a the general. This can really whittle his lances down with plenty of static CR to bounce off you.

Also, bretonians lack lateral movement.

You should be able to win the deployment phase, and set up the propper match-ups you need to counter his smallish force.

blackcherry
15-05-2007, 20:45
if you want to do a beast army, just flank him, removing his ranks and have a wargor with a great fang. that way he wont be able to save most of the wounds(darn warn save!) amd charge a chariot or 2 in the front same turn(using a character using the dark heart the +D3 charge range one so you can potentailly out charge him) or the following turn. that should break em real nice.

MarcoPollo
16-05-2007, 00:55
Also, the staff of Darkoth is important. It will help you win the movement phase. But you have to be cunning about it. A small ambush herd or two will help deal with those pesky bowmen and trebs. But you must hold up the lances or angle their charges so that they congregate in the center where movement is tougher.

druchii
16-05-2007, 03:02
Also, the staff of Darkoth is important. It will help you win the movement phase. But you have to be cunning about it. A small ambush herd or two will help deal with those pesky bowmen and trebs. But you must hold up the lances or angle their charges so that they congregate in the center where movement is tougher.


Please just be careful with skirmishing units. With the clarification of the charging unit placement, Bretonnian players can now "tactically" wheel their units when placing them in base to base contact with your non ranked unit. Allowing the Bretonnian player to, generally, chose where he'll end up going when the combat's over.

I know I've suckered my regular opposing BoC player into thinking that he could dictate the flow of my overruns/follow-up charges. He doesn't make that mistake much anymore.

Other units that terrify me: Dragon ogres. Holy crap batman! that's a ton of S7 attacks, and ALOT of wounds to chew through. Also, the M7 doesn't hurt, one bit.

Another BIG factor: USE TERRAIN to your advantage! Those units that can hide in woods and water features (woods are best) can really ruin my day. Using them to either sucker a unit into the woods, or threatening flanks and rears is an incredible intimidation factor. Especially when you've got a few nasty units (like Dragon Ogres) waitint to smack something in the face.

d

nieto666
16-05-2007, 06:09
I played my friends new bret list at 1000 pts(thats all he has right now)last weekend. 1st i took my gobbos against him with a dog's of war unit, ogres actually, and a boar chariot. he had 16 knights and somewhere around 30 archers plus some men at arms!! he tore me apart regardless to say. I said i wanted a rematch with my WE and he said sure. I did much much better. I had a noble on a great eagle and 3 warhawk riders and pretty much danced around him the whole game. i though it wouldnt be quite nice of me to field any magic seeing how he hasnt got the mini yet so i went with another noble this one with hail of doom arrow!! it was devasting i out shot and out moved him. i highly recommend fliers even if he has those annoying pegasus knights!![dice0]

CommanderCax
16-05-2007, 09:36
Thanks again for all the helpful input.

I think the Bretonnians are easier to handle with Beasts of Chaos. I already kicked the crap out of a colleague's Blood Dragons with them and I am quite sure to be able to outmanoeuvre the Bretonnians either.
Still, Hordes of Chaos are another story. Mounted Daemonettes and Marauder Horsemen are fine, but I fear his Pegasus Knights will make short shrift of them when I try to outflank him. HoC are just not as manoeuvrable as BoC and in a direct head on head confontation they get the short straw. Especially since he probably has more close-combat units than I have... :cries: