PDA

View Full Version : What are the major problems of Imperial Guard?



Pages : [1] 2 3

Stingray_tm
15-05-2007, 10:57
I was just wondering: I have never seen IG doing well in Tournaments and considering all my games, the least problems is had with my Nids was against IG. Until now i thought, that the factors here were, that Nids just do well against IG, but maybe there is more to it.

Are IG underpowered? And if yes, why?

Corrupt
15-05-2007, 11:01
Hm
I suppose that...while fragile, as per eldar, they lack elite killy stuff.
Most powerful unit in the army really are still T 3 4+ saves with Str 3 Ap5 guns
Numbers...well they drop like flies unless in cover.
They aint actually that bad, but with them being one of the older codexes they suffer from the creep of newer ones...not as bad as orks or DE though

Your Evil Twin
15-05-2007, 11:10
It all depends on what sort of guard army your facing...standard guard armies are slightly underpowered if played badly but mechanised forces or storm trooper armies with lots of special and heavy weapons do really well!

Your Evil Twin

tuebor
15-05-2007, 11:34
The Guard list itself isn't underpowered, but let's just say that it does give you a lot of rope to hang yourself with. There are a lot of units that sound very cool but underperform greatly in the MEQ rich environment most gamers live in. In other words, it's quite possible to be competitive with Guard, but it's very easy to build a list that will make winning very difficult.

Bunnahabhain
15-05-2007, 11:47
Because T3, with a 5+ save means coming out of cover is very dangerous for a guardsman

Because our heavy weapons only hit half the time, and it feels like alot less.

Because our biggest guns almost always scatter away from where you wanted them

Because we die to just about anything in close combat, even those ' rubbish' tactical marines.

Because if we are close enough together for squads to support each other, then, we're close enough together for assault troops to consolidate between squads, and so not get shot.

Because our faith in the emperor was not strong enough, and we ran away after the officers died.

Because the Xeno's skimmers appeared in our flank, killed the leman russ in one easy shot, and dropped a load of troops out, before we had even seen them.


At tournaments, two major things come into play. They tend to have too little cover, which is a death sentence for us, and they have quite small battles.
The Guard list becomes more powerful at higher points values. We can just add more and more troops, which are the backbone of the army. Many other armies rely on their elite or Fast attack to win, but they can't take enough in a big battle, as the FOCs limit them, but we can just add to the gun-line, and doctrines mean it can all deep-strike or infiltrate.

infernus31
15-05-2007, 12:08
Guard have issues with points cost too, look at the prices for heavy weapons for instance and they feel (to me at least) distinctly overcosted.

Guard also (bar drop trooping/infiltrating armies) lack objective claimers that can move as fast or are as survivable as those of other races, which in missions tend to be vital.


Having said this I fully intend to play Guard in s tournamnet, the sheer emphasis at tournaments for armies to be designed t kill MEQs means that Guard can do surprisingly well. I myself play a tank heavy list which scares my opponents stupid the first time as most armies lack the firepower to deal with my 6 tanks let alone the infantry supporting them.


Plus Guard are a blast to play regardless of their competitiveness, so much fun I can't see myself changing armies anytime soon!

Slaaneshi Slave
15-05-2007, 12:09
Getting those three units of 50 Conscripts you bought painted in time for your next game. :p

Gen.Steiner
15-05-2007, 12:23
Because our faith in the emperor was not strong enough, and we ran away after the officers died.

This is the only reason Imperial Guard armies lose. They did not have enough faith.

jfrazell
15-05-2007, 12:25
V4 really hammered many of the guard strengths, mainly ordnance and vehicles.

*hull down. Without hull down guard vehicles are much more vulnerable then skimmers.
*Ordnance. In V3 my ordnance had a good chance of taking down opposing vehicles. In V4, outside of armored company and the ace gunner doctrine-forget it.
*Assault cannons. Assault cannons are particularly good at taking down guard vehicles. Enough said.
*sweeping assault. In V3 I ran a squad with priest as effective counterassault. I could lock up units or take out stragglers. Now its far more likely my forces will be swept and wiped out.
*It should also be noted, when the most recent guard codex came out right before V4, good old Pete “I’m an Iron Warrior until I die” Haines slammed the guard by RAISING the cost of lascannons and other weapons, above those of marine and other imperium players. Needless to say I don't miss Haines, and I was an IW player :(

ashc
15-05-2007, 12:40
i agree with pretty much everything jfrazell said; poor old guard....

Trouble is they sit in power limbo; their main strength is in shooting but GW don't want you to just play a gunline; yet their alternative units are pretty much a joke in comparison to other armies equivalent units (and for the points costs too!)

Ash

Satsume
15-05-2007, 12:43
My friend has guard and he finds ways to counter the major problems I always found with my valhallans. For example, one of the big problems imo is their leadership. Well, one he takes master vox in his command platoon and links every squad he has with a vox so he would get, depending on his cosen rank of officer, somewhere of Ld 8-9. Further, he takes close orders drill, which adds +1 Ld and +1 I. Now I'm not saying that all inherit problems of guard can be avoided, but the doctrines page helps alot. Don't get lured by using restricted units, generally they are not that good, outside stormtroops in certain situations, and rough riders (if they are restricted, I cant remember). Strengths are in ordnance, even if it just scares footsloggers to skulking from area terrain to area terrain, and oodles of heavy weapons, mostly autocannons and heavy bolters, try to keep everything that can only shoot once to a minimum, unless its super nasty when it hits. And ALWAYS TAKE COMMISSARS.

Curis
15-05-2007, 13:05
They've got a huge problem with leadership now that the targetting priority rules have been introduced. Successful Guard shooting phases hinge on whether you can focus your firepower effectively. When basic line units are testing against ld7 to pick on targets your shooting really gets diluted down.

And as has already been pointed out, their heavy weapons are overpriced. If you put a 25 points lascannon in an infantry squad (that's more points than 4 basic Guard!) then when you fire it at a tank the rest of the squad's lasguns are wasted. The points should reflect the fact the rest of the unit has to sacrifice shooting in order for it to get off a potshot.

The used to have the flexibility in 2nd edition of splitting off their heavy weapons. They could lay down firepower while the rest of the squad advanced and also picked on different targets. That's entirely gone, with nothing to replace it.

Bloodknight
15-05-2007, 13:31
I think the problems are overcosted stuff, quick loss of leadership due to the small unshieldable squads and lack of objective claimers. If you play by the basic non doctrine list (and there is the flaw already. You see a lot of Black Legion players, but almost no Guard basic players. I think this tells about how well that list works...), you are just immobile while 4th edition is mobility hammer. Thatīs why you see a lot of successful mech Eldar, Tau and dropping Marines.
The IG transport is expensive, not fast and not durable due to weak armour on very long flanks. It also doesnīt transport units which can take and hold an objective.

Griffin
15-05-2007, 13:42
I wouldn't say Guard are Majorly Underpowered - It's just very easy to hang yourself as somebody mentioned. I fear guard allmost more than any other army when playing with my iyanden - Tau - sure they can jump, but I'm tough, eldar fast - I can take it, Marines - yummy expensive - Guard, I have to keep on killing and killing and killing and dead...

jfrazell
15-05-2007, 13:46
Having said that there are some wicked shooty lists out there. There's one on this board with something on the order of 47 plasma guns. Were I doing guard again (and had the patience) it would be troopy only, with close order, and infiltrate doctrines. i use traitors in my LATD and love the infiltrate, which I use not to get closer but to better "redeploy" against threats. Add a healthy mix of dropping goodness and life gets intersting for the bad guys.

KaldCB
15-05-2007, 13:54
Nothing.........

Bloodknight
15-05-2007, 14:07
I love how a lot of players stubbornly defend the opinion that the Guard book is allright. In my eyes it suffers from the same problems as the Chaos book - internal balance - but without the external power. I think we can all thank Pete Haines for flawed design. ;)
Also the 4th edition rules gave Guard a big slap: Ordnance worse, tanks less durable, sweeping advance, no screening.

SwordsofChaos
15-05-2007, 14:41
Trench foot? What is that? (Forgive me if itīs so ething every guard player and his mother knows)

Bloodknight
15-05-2007, 14:43
Trenchfoot is a type of disease which makes your feet rot (also known as jungle rot) due to humid conditions, bad hygiene and people not having a chance to doff their boots often enough to let them dry.
And itīs real, not fictional.

jfrazell
15-05-2007, 14:58
Rectify guard-here’s how:

*Heavy weapons back to their old stats.
*Warrior weapons-free change. May make for some interesting armies.
*Fix the costs on the existing doctrines to make them workable. For example-carapace is based on cost per mini (2 points per mini) not per squad.

Here’s some additional-
*Tankers (may only be used with mechanized doctrine). Army commander may utilize a vanquisher for the cost of a vanquisher. Vanquisher cannon operates at BS4. If so, no escort. May have the option of a Tank Ace (at armored company prices), with the tank ace operating the ordnance at BS4 (may use a vanquisher).

*Antitank round. Lemans that pay for this doctrine (armored company) may utilize antitank rounds (S8 2d6 penetration, no blast). Must not move to shoot and uses BS3.

*Monstrous Creature. Guard ordnance is so large that they specially impact monstrous creatures. If hit roll 1-3 wounds (saveable as normal). Could be a doctrine or normal ability.

*Abhuman doctrines. Per the WD codex. However, each doctrine counts for two (ie if you take the albino doctrine that counts for two of your five doctrinal choices)

*Roughrider companies. All units must be cavalry mounted (no vehicles permitted). The roughrider unit may count as FA. All other FOCs are normal groundpounder units which must be mounted on cavalry mounts for X points per mini (not squad). This way your opponent won’t blanche with 120 str 5 power weapons coming at him, and the list is otherwise limited to mounted infantry.

*Conscript horde. Only one heavy support choice permitted. No vehicles with the exception of in HQ (and the 1 heavy support) permitted. No special weapons squads with the exception of demo teams and flamers permitted. HQ is a commissar. 1 Commissar may be taken for each FOC slot, at no cost above cost of commissar itself. No FA. Standard armored fist squads count as elites. New unit-penal platoon. 3 points per mini. No range weapons-the Platoon HQ has access to a demo charge. This doctrine is for those who believe feral orks are nice but there just aren’t enough orks in the list…

Vehicles:
*Add back the Vanquisher, Destroyer, Griffin, executioner, and rapier laser destroyer.
*Add the salamander scout vehicle as a fast attack option.

sukigod
15-05-2007, 15:06
I have a friend that I compete against quite often who has a large (3K+) IG army. We play mostly 750-1500 pt games and tactically he's really good with them. I see no problem wih the IG currently.

The only time he has trouble is when he's forced, by scenario, to be on the offensive. That's where my Orks really shine. His tanks are quite scary but all you have to do is give them nothing to shoot at. (hide).

Quin 242
15-05-2007, 15:12
I'm liking where jfrazell is going with this...

Linking costs of doctrines to models and not to squads would make more sense. And I'd love to be able to give warrior weapons to specific squads rather than having to give it to EVERYONE.

As far as vehicles tho.. you can use all of the above if you have the rules.

Templar Ben
15-05-2007, 15:13
Trench foot? What is that? (Forgive me if itīs so ething every guard player and his mother knows)


Trenchfoot is a type of disease which makes your feet rot (also known as jungle rot) due to humid conditions, bad hygiene and people not having a chance to doff their boots often enough to let them dry.
And itīs real, not fictional.

Bloodknight is right. I was making a bad joke since you always have your guys fighting in those dug in positions. I figure infection is the biggest problem.


I think IG are a tough list to learn. You don't see many young people play them (at least not until DoW came out) and I think that shows that they are an army that tends to attract a different sort.

Colonel Jacka
15-05-2007, 15:29
Trenchfoot is a type of disease which makes your feet rot (also known as jungle rot) due to humid conditions, bad hygiene and people not having a chance to doff their boots often enough to let them dry. And itīs real, not fictional.

Correct diagnosis for Jungle Rot, but it is different to Trench foot which results from continual cold and wet conditions and is far more crippling then Juggle Rot!

Now on to the Guard. My biggest issue is in a 1000 to 1500pt game I do bad. 2000 plus I 'm hard to beat. To bad I don't get to many 2000 pt games. I play mech heavy, Guard comes into its own when you can play the vehicles and the ordnance.

Oh and playing lots of Flamers and Hell Hounds makes a big differance. :D

Spook101
15-05-2007, 15:48
-agree with doctorines points costs, smaller units still get stung with the large points costs.

-smaller point lists resrtict the number of units exponentialy, (especialy doctorine users.)

-player tactics (both sides, the enemy has tactics too) can play a major role.

-Mission type can be bad. advancing the army seems to be a bad idea

-Having no faith can be bad (personal faith in my scatter dice. Only four units lost to bad scatter. Good when i regularly drop my men insanely close -almost counting the milimeters- to enemy units)

-Trench foot likely a major problem. (train your medical staff better)

Rightnow
15-05-2007, 16:28
I don't think there is any one thing that makes Guard tough to play or win with. I think it is death by a million pin pricks. There are small problems all over the place, which add up.

incarna
15-05-2007, 16:35
I really don’t see guard as underpowered at all. Every codex must be approached with a paradigm of thought, while you are free to break that paradigm (and it’s awesome and very fun to do so successfully) you will typically be most successful by adhering to it.

The paradigm of the Imperial Guard Codex is simple in my opinion. You must be willing to accept that you will be pulling gobs and gobs of guys off the table every turn. You must not just accept it, you must LOVE the idea of pulling 20+ guard off the table in one turn and watching the frustrated look on your opponents face as he sees the 90+ guard you still have left! Accept the durability of pure numbers and visit the punishment you received back on your opponent with the full weight of your force. Mobility is not your strength. High-quality individual units is not your strength. Close combat is not your strength. Numbers and firepower is all you really have.

Point for point a guardsman is about one third as expensive as a space marine so you should have roughly three times as many guard as a typical space marine player. Ideally you should have more! You can not approach the construction of an Imperial Guard army with a Space Marine, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orc, Necron, or Chaos paradigm.

I had an Imperial Guard army with over 120 guardman (this included 30 rough riders). I faced armies that SIMPLY DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH SHOTS (if it hit AND wounded with every shot) to destroy my army in 6 turns.

I’ve been toying with the idea of making a new Imperial Guard army lately. I’m trying to break the paradigm that I have laid out here. It will be difficult, and being successful on the tabletop outside the paradigm will be very challenging. But it’s part of what makes the game fun.

Hicks
15-05-2007, 16:42
Most of it has been said, but here's my take on changes I want to see:
-Overcosted stuff, mainly heavy weapons (marines lascannons hit more often and are more survivable yet they cost 10 pts less!).
-Most of the army sits there and does nothing (squads being able to take 2 heavy or special weapons could help).
-Tanks are very easy to kill and since the deployment zone is so cramed when they blow up they take a squad or 2 with them.
-Advisors should be able to join any unit.
-Sentinels are stupidly easy to kill and they cost way too much.
-A 0-1, BS4, "venerable" Russ that takes an elite slot
-Power weapons availible for sarges.
-Better availability of sniper rifles.
-Make psykers and engineseers usable. Right now their abilities are way too random and not really usefull.
-Ogryns and abhumans are cool, let's make them good.
-Most importantly, cheaper troops. 6 points is a bit much for such poor stats. Also, Strom Troopers cost only 1 point less than a SOB and they are much, much worse.

It might look like I'm asking too much, but take a look at the Tau codex (the other shooty army). The Tau Empire is a much more powerfull list and betterpriced.

narlix
15-05-2007, 16:48
The IG's problems is not the codex its the people who play it. Its one of the stronger list if your willing to accept how they work. The average IG player is not willing to do that. the average IG player want toplay with the docs, they don't want to max out on tanks/bassies, they don;t want to min/max heavy weapon placement to MeQ kills to points ect ect ect.

basicly to make the IG function on the tourny level you do one of two things, you run them with no docs in a gun line with 3 pie plates and about 50 to 60 special/heavies ( plasma . rockets, las cannons, and multi lasers on chimeras) or you run them as drop troops buy back the vets and drop a bunch of vet and zombie squads into handle the issue but your still talking the rest being a gun line.

jfrazell
15-05-2007, 16:57
Zombie squads? This is some new IG list I've not seen before.

*My record was 60 guardsmen in a turn-all troopy (only moderate HW's) vs. BA (V3). We left the minis on the table, just laid them over. Bautiful images of 1-3 BA's surrounded by dead guardsmen, slowly being dragged down.

narlix
15-05-2007, 17:20
zombie squad is a term, that joe grunt in the army uses for a unit or squad or platoon, ect of guys who are sent to do something that they have little chance of liveing though. ( IE jungle recon in a known hot zone, the guys first off the landers at normandy, just really nasty stuff that is a to mundane to use elite troops for). Its is slang, not an offical term.

Hence they are the walking dead.

In the IG this would be drop vet squads with 3 plasma, drop command squads with 4 plasma, droop special weapons teams with 2 meltas and a demo charge.

don_mondo
15-05-2007, 17:22
I was just wondering: I have never seen IG doing well in Tournaments and considering all my games, the least problems is had with my Nids was against IG. Until now i thought, that the factors here were, that Nids just do well against IG, but maybe there is more to it.

Are IG underpowered? And if yes, why?

OK, I've got to come to the defense of my beloved Guard. No, they are not underpowered and they can do quite well at tournaments. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt (and the trophies). Since the current codex came out I've used my IG in numerous tournies, to include at least 6 or 7 US GTs. In all those the GTs combined, I think I've lost 2 or 3 games total and have finished in the top 10 several times, to include a 2nd for Best General at Baltimore 2005.


It all depends on what sort of guard army your facing...standard guard armies are slightly underpowered if played badly but mechanised forces or storm trooper armies with lots of special and heavy weapons do really well!

Your Evil Twin

Hmmmmm, oddly, I usually play an all-infantry/sentinels list with zero Stormtroopers/Grenadiers and no tanks or transports......... Altho I did win a small GW staff tourney (Baltimore Games Day 2005 IIRC) with a Mech list, pretty much a cakewalk. I do fit the lots of special and heavy weapons description tho. Add in a few squads that deep strike with melta/plasma guns and it's party time.


They've got a huge problem with leadership now that the targetting priority rules have been introduced. Successful Guard shooting phases hinge on whether you can focus your firepower effectively. When basic line units are testing against ld7 to pick on targets your shooting really gets diluted down.

?? Ummmm, you do know that you can use the Officer's Leadership rule for Targetting Priority tests, right? I use a Senior Heroic and a Junior with Honorifica, gives me two LD 9 zones. Deploy them out of LOS and you don't have to worry about losing your LD. Add in Iron Discipline (and Standard for the HQ) and the army is rock solid against shooting.

IMO, the only weakness in a standard IG army is hth capability, or rather, lack thereof. Course, I don't use either Ogryn or Rough Riders, don't see either as all that effective personally. YMMV. But quantity has a quality all it's own. Even without spending lots of points on doctrines, when you can throw 20-30 models at a couple of guys that hit your lines, it usually works. Of course, the key is to make it a couple of guys by shooting most of them. Close Order Drill (FREE doctrine) helps as well, use the regular move to position the squad and then when you charge you can get them all into btb with each other and be Initiative 4.


zombie squad is a term, that joe grunt in the army uses for a unit or squad or platoon, ect of guys who are sent to do something that they have little chance of liveing though. ( IE jungle recon in a known hot zone, the guys first off the landers at normandy, just really nasty stuff that is a to mundane to use elite troops for). Its is slang, not an offical term.

Hence they are the walking dead.

In the IG this would be drop vet squads with 3 plasma, drop command squads with 4 plasma, droop special weapons teams with 2 meltas and a demo charge.

Some of my favorites!!!!

Don "MONDO"

Captain Micha
15-05-2007, 17:25
the biggest problem with guard? not really one out there... other than rough riders... *joke of a unit... ranks right up there with vespid.. both of which rulewise probably designed by the same guy...*

mortars are the suck of legends....

the biggest problem with the Ig for me is their ww2 theme and seeming ww2 tech level... you wanna tell me that in the 41st milenium they would be -guessing- distances? its not really that much of a draw back... just take a stormie squad, use your targeters one turn bassi fire the next.. "but that'd be too good" yeaaa riiight. considering I more or less can do that anyway now...

their vehicles honestly being the suck next to skimmers is another one... (I say russes should be in squadrons for the amount of power difference there is)

184 guys is the largest army I've made list wise in a 1500 pter.. still has plenty of at, and anti infantry... I don't honestly see anything mowing that down anytime soon in 6 turns. (only reason I've not done it yet.... painting..and buying all of those minis)

Bunnahabhain
15-05-2007, 17:43
Err, guessing ranges went out with 3rd ed. You place the template, and scatter it highest of 2d6". It's just the in some of the older books, the G in the range is it's designation of a barrage status.

Personally, I didn't mind it. You get good at estimating ranges easily enough, and it scatters so much it scarcely seems to matter where it starts.

Rough riders as a Joke? The models, yes, the rules no. 11pts for 2 S5, I5 power weapon attacks, moving 19-24" on the turn they charge? They take care to use well, and the enemy will try to kill them, so hide them. Alternatively, they act as bullet magnets, which saves the rest of your squads.

Captain Micha
15-05-2007, 17:44
then why does the eldar codex have guess range weapons... *is so confused now... where is that damn gray book*

so you just slap the template down and scatter dice? no guessing and then measuring?

holy crap! my bassy army will be borne!

don_mondo
15-05-2007, 17:46
then why does the eldar codex have guess range weapons... *is so confused now... where is that damn gray book*

so you just slap the template down and scatter dice? no guessing and then measuring?

holy crap! my bassy army will be borne!

Guess = Barrage

Angelwing
15-05-2007, 17:57
I'm liking where jfrazell is going with this...

Linking costs of doctrines to models and not to squads would make more sense. And I'd love to be able to give warrior weapons to specific squads rather than having to give it to EVERYONE.



i'd like to see this, especially the warrior weapon idea. would help my guard immensely.

Captain Micha
15-05-2007, 17:59
yes... why do warrior weapons cost points?

carapace should be +2 pts a model... but then.. maybe they felt the 4+ was actually more balance disruptive on -smaller- unit entries like veterans than it was guard infantry platoons? which sort of makes sense I suppose.

Templar Ben
15-05-2007, 18:32
zombie squad is a term, that joe grunt in the army uses for a unit or squad or platoon, ect of guys who are sent to do something that they have little chance of liveing though. ( IE jungle recon in a known hot zone, the guys first off the landers at normandy, just really nasty stuff that is a to mundane to use elite troops for). Its is slang, not an offical term.

Hence they are the walking dead.

In the IG this would be drop vet squads with 3 plasma, drop command squads with 4 plasma, droop special weapons teams with 2 meltas and a demo charge.

Zombie Squad is also an organization of which I am a member. www.zombiehunters.org You guys should check out that forum. The stuff in the firearm section alone is a trip. We were once described as being the only charitable organization with more guns than Lebanon. :D

Has anyone done a cost per point breakdown of guard and compared them to Tau, SM, Ork?

Vaktathi
15-05-2007, 18:37
Personally I really like the Guard codex overall and feel it was well done, however that said, there are some points to consider.

first off, the basic guardsmen could probably do with a 1pt decrease to 5pts, Vets and ST's probably reduced by 1-2pts from where they are now (ST's at 8pts seems much more reasonable and Vets at 7pts) Also reducing the cost of upgrading Sergeants to Vet sergeants from 6 to 5 pts (why is their cost doubled for an extra attack and 1Ld? it also makes for wierd accounting) and squad based heavy weapons, Lascannons in particular, really should cost less (why is a lascannon almost half a squads points?)

Chimera's are a real sticking point for me. they are roughly the same cost as a Devilfish or a basic-ish Waveserpent, but slower and far easier to kill, not to mention that Guard cannot pull of the same devestating mechanized effect that other armies can. Sentinels are much the same, similar to other armies units in role and function, but arent as good at it and are similarly costed.

Robot 2000
15-05-2007, 18:44
The problem I found with guard, and I suspect that it's why other people find them problematic as well, is that the people that take them as their army don't tend to be the kind of people who are into min-maxing, taking every little opportunity to win and suchlike that fits into the tourney environment. I liked playing a moderately realistic army and having one-off suicide squads randomly dropping out of the sky with plasma guns just didn't feel right to me when the rest of my army is sitting on the other side of the board dug into cover.
I think many guard players, like I used to, probably handicap themselves (especially in the more common smaller points games where "proper" guard tactics are less effective) with this kind of background-centric thinking.

jfrazell
15-05-2007, 18:50
Chimera's are a real sticking point for me. they are roughly the same cost as a Devilfish or a basic-ish Waveserpent, but slower and far easier to kill, not to mention that Guard cannot pull of the same devestating mechanized effect that other armies can. Sentinels are much the same, similar to other armies units in role and function, but arent as good at it and are similarly costed.

Quoted for extreme truthiness. In V3 it wasn't as bad as you could generally get hull down. Obscurement is caca to guard vehicles. Under V4, chimeras need an 11 side armor. A price adjustment downward (for both chimeras and Lemans) is in order.

jfrazell
15-05-2007, 19:27
Comparison (and doing this against eldar only because I have some of the eldar stats here):
A cherried out Falcon is 185-pulse laser, shuricat, starcannon, holofield, spirit stones. That’s a fast skimmer with re-rollable damage and extra armor equipment.

Leman Similar Leman Russ is 165-battlecannon, extra armor, lascannon, smoke (closest to glancing).

Now lets go raw
Falcon base-115 + bright lance 30 (simulating lascannon) = 145
Leman Russ stock 140 + lascannon 15= 155

And that’s eldar. Tau have similar strengths in points costs on their vehicles, as do marines/chaos.

Firstandonly14
15-05-2007, 19:34
5pt guardsmen sound good. 8 point glory boys sound great.

Good discussion going on here. I agree with the above posts, about vehicle points costs

Bloodknight
15-05-2007, 20:07
The misconception many players seem to have when it comes to guard numbers is IMHO:
Yes, 2 1/2 Guardsmen cost the same as a space marine. Assuming from these numbers that Guard should outnumber marines by 2 1/2 to 1 and having the same effect is a fallacy, however. Upgrades cost more, hit less, the basic guys wonīt kill much (a space marine is 6 times as effective in shooting compared to guard with basic weapons) and even their vehicles are cheaper (or in case of Eldar and Tau more durable).
The only things that make Guard worthwhile at the moment are the Drop Troops doctrine or the slave militia. The first costs nothing and allows troops with several assault weapons to bring them to bear at least once while the second is just nuts and shouldnīt be there in the first place.
As for the numbers: I get about 80 equipped guys + some tanks into a 1500 pts army as I donīt use conscripts. I have managed to do 150 guys, but that wasnīt very successful because most of them still do squat and get slaughtered in CC or outmaneuvered in a way that most of your army cannot react to the enemy due to terrain. The enemy doesnīt need so many shots, he just has to reach the lines with more than one unit. Against mobile armies you just get shot piecemeal and lose by points because you cannot kill more of them as they kill of you. Tau and Eldar specialise in it.

Captain Micha
15-05-2007, 20:16
I think the guard are best suited for hold position style objectives and the like. Lots of gun babies means lots of ablative wounds. special weapon teams make things better too... as do heavy weapon support squads.

I do agree though... guard are the suck on mobile warfare. and that is why I play tau... and -still- have not set up my ig...

The Song of Spears
15-05-2007, 20:24
The Guard list itself isn't underpowered, but let's just say that it does give you a lot of rope to hang yourself with. There are a lot of units that sound very cool but underperform greatly in the MEQ rich environment most gamers live in. In other words, it's quite possible to be competitive with Guard, but it's very easy to build a list that will make winning very difficult.

Personally i wonder why the discussion went past this post :p

I have seen guard armies that would make IW players cry then turn around and slap around Tyranids like a two-headed stepchild.

I remember my first time looking at the IG codex, i could barely finish the thing my head was spinning with so many options, not even including the doctrines.

To me the IG are perfectly fit into the recent codex releases (Eldar, DA, Tau) and are competitive and balanced but still have a huge variety of options.

Captain Micha
15-05-2007, 20:30
I think part of it is, is that alot of the complaints though come from the fact that it is -very- easy to hang yourself with.. so many options... and unlike so many other dexes, it is harder to see at times which ones work best together.

I can't wait to take my veteran, granadier, carapace, hardened fighter, psyker force myself... (vets would be like space marines light! muwhahahaha)

Steel_Legion
15-05-2007, 20:35
I think there is nothing wrong with the codex, perhaps a slight descrease in some things (like drop squads a few points) but to be honest the codex seems fine, a few more vehicals would be nice, but then thats what IA is for.

ash_wednesday
15-05-2007, 20:52
The main problem with IG? T:3, Sv:5+ and most weapons are ST:3. Lest face it, our weapons and armour suck. We can't shoot this side of a Baneblade, and when we do hit, the lasbeam bounces of cloth.

Our technoligy sucks too. Yes, we can get a lascannon but we don't (for the most part) have it twin-linked. Most of our firepower and tech is out dated with other armies hve rail guns, force feilds etc. Hell mere bolters can make swiss cheese out of our amour.

The only real strength we have are in numbers. You'll need more then one of anything you deploy. You want a sential, get 3. You want a tank, get at least two. The more dice you roll, the better chance you have at hitting something.

Also..IG is the most expenive army around. Other armies 1700pts is a couple of tanks and a few models (Space Marines for example) while as with the IG, you're looking at at least 60+ models and then the tanks....

Another factor that hurts the IG during the tournments is time. Most games in a tournment have a time limit. Usally 2 hours. Feilding a large army of 60-100+ models take some time just to deploy, let alone move them. In my first tournmnet, MY IG had 130 models, 1 tank and a sential. My frist game took me an hour to deploy. The person I was plying with was a IG player as well. We got to turn 3 we we ran out of time. Most IG games take a long time to play.

Theldrad
15-05-2007, 20:55
i see guard as weak sure they have mass numbers, but thats why you take a mass heavy bolter army =)

ash_wednesday
15-05-2007, 20:57
a few more vehicals would be nice, but then thats what IA is for.
But not all of us can afford ForgeWorld stuff...

Gen.Steiner
15-05-2007, 21:00
But not all of us can afford ForgeWorld stuff...

Scratchbuild! Convert! It's cheap, it's fun, it's fairly easy.

Coasty
15-05-2007, 21:05
Major problems:

1. They all seem to be from Cadia (the reasonably priced ones, anyway)

2. They all have acromegaly.

Gen.Steiner
15-05-2007, 21:07
Major problems:

1. They all seem to be from Cadia (the reasonably priced ones, anyway)

Lies! Mine are from Karaboudjan, Nova Castella, Paradiso, Darendara, Parvassia... and many more places.


2. They all have acromegaly.

They all have what?

ash_wednesday
15-05-2007, 21:08
Scratchbuild! Convert! It's cheap, it's fun, it's fairly easy.

I can't scratchbuild the book though....which was what I was getting at.

Coasty
15-05-2007, 21:12
Lies! Mine are from Karaboudjan, Nova Castella, Paradiso, Darendara, Parvassia... and many more places.

Ah, but do they wear those silly Starship Troopers hats...?


They all have what?

It's a disease that causes a severe hormonal imbalance, resulting in enlarged skull and extremities, among other things...

Gen.Steiner
15-05-2007, 21:13
I can't scratchbuild the book though....which was what I was getting at.

Then club together with mates and buy one, or get your local library to get a copy and photocopy the relevant pages, or even just write the rules out on a bit of paper at your local GW. There's ways and means.

EDIT:


Ah, but do they wear those silly Starship Troopers hats...?

Only the Karaboudjani. Besides, Starship Troopers wear huge suits of powered armour and get fired into a planet from space, they don't look anything like the plastic Cadians. :p


It's a disease that causes a severe hormonal imbalance, resulting in enlarged skull and extremities, among other things...

Oh right. Hehe.

ash_wednesday
15-05-2007, 21:23
Then club together with mates and buy one, or get your local library to get a copy and photocopy the relevant pages, or even just write the rules out on a bit of paper at your local GW. There's ways and means.
Too many legal issues. Copeyright Etc. I don't want to spend all my time making a baneblade or something else only to find out I can't use it in a tournment or a GW store because I don't have the actual book and get in trouble piratecy.

It would be nicer if the include some of the IA tanks and such in the new codex book (if it comes out).

Don't get me wrong, i'll convert the tanks and such using GW IG tanks but the book itself I'll have to buy someday but other players may not be able to.

We shouldn't need a 2nd or 3rd book just to make our army better. It should be better with the first book, the main codex.

Gen.Steiner
15-05-2007, 21:28
Too many legal issues. Copeyright Etc. I don't want to spend all my time making a baneblade or something else only to find out I can't use it in a tournment or a GW store because I don't have the actual book and get in trouble piratecy.

Rot. You're allowed to photocopy a few pages for your own use, that's perfectly legal. I can't remember the exact amount, but your local library photocopier or school photocopier will have the details near it.

ashc
15-05-2007, 21:29
I think you are allowed to photocopy 10-15% of a document for personal use (at least, thats what it is here at uni.)

Ash

Ninja edit: and besides, couldn't you just tell the tourney organiser you brought the photocopy because you only needed 1-2 pages and didn't want to lug a whole Ģ50 book about with you? ;)

Gen.Steiner
15-05-2007, 21:36
I think you are allowed to photocopy 10-15% of a document for personal use (at least, thats what it is here at uni.)

Ash

Ninja edit: and besides, couldn't you just tell the tourney organiser you brought the photocopy because you only needed 1-2 pages and didn't want to lug a whole Ģ50 book about with you? ;)

Exactly, well said, I agree. :)

Corrupt
15-05-2007, 22:30
Exactly, well said, I agree. :)

Greatest trick on earth :D

don_mondo
16-05-2007, 16:05
I have seen guard armies that would make IW players cry then turn around and slap around Tyranids like a two-headed stepchild.
QUOTE]

Literally...., some of the US GT staff still ask if I have made anybody cry lately, stems from the last game of GT Baltimore 2005 when I demolished an Iron Warrior player so badly that he pulled his last few models off the table before turn 3 ended and conceded. All he had left was a handful of Chaos Marines and I still had 80% of my army. Thing is, I had played the same opponent (using an Ulthwe Strike Force) at Boston previously and also demolished him, so when he walked up to the table where I was talking to one of the staff, his face just crumpled.....

[QUOTE=Theldrad;1558755]i see guard as weak sure they have mass numbers, but thats why you take a mass heavy bolter army =)

Uh huh, and you're going to bring that army to a tourney environment where 75% of your opponents are MEQ.....??


Another factor that hurts the IG during the tournments is time. Most games in a tournment have a time limit. Usally 2 hours. Feilding a large army of 60-100+ models take some time just to deploy, let alone move them. In my first tournmnet, MY IG had 130 models, 1 tank and a sential. My frist game took me an hour to deploy. The person I was plying with was a IG player as well. We got to turn 3 we we ran out of time. Most IG games take a long time to play.

This can be a problem, but you get faster at it the more you play. I usually manage to finish 1750-2000 point games in under two hours, including deployment. Just takes practice.

jfrazell
16-05-2007, 19:48
Hey Don, ever think you're maybe the exception, not the rule?

ash_wednesday
16-05-2007, 20:08
Rot. You're allowed to photocopy a few pages for your own use, that's perfectly legal. I can't remember the exact amount, but your local library photocopier or school photocopier will have the details near it.

Ok that part is cool. THe only problem is that my libary wouldn't have a copy of a forge world book. :)

But I could copy off of someone else....

Hmm...the tank hunter tank could be easy to convert....

Gen.Steiner
16-05-2007, 20:13
Ok that part is cool. THe only problem is that my libary wouldn't have a copy of a forge world book. :)

Libraries should be able to get their hands on any published book for you if you ask them nicely. Either through interlibrary lending or them simply buying a copy to put into their stock.

NotElite
16-05-2007, 20:22
I don't think the guard are all that bad, but will agree they are a "B" level army. You need to take some very specific combinations to remain competitive. Honorifica leadership bubbles, Vets with plasma... etc.

I like the ideas jfrazell and others had, but here is the problem. GW is moving towards "streamlining" the options, not adding to them.

They want you to be able to go into a store, buy a box of models and assemble them to be exactly like the pictures on the box and be just as competitive as any other army. Adding wargear, special ammo or upgraded troopers or tanks is not the direction things are going.

In that vein, they eliminate options that actually improve the power of the army over what is in the basic versions. We will never see army-transforming expanded doctrines, organizational structures or gear unless they change philisophical direction again.

I fully expect to lose the Honorifica Imperialis because it is being "abused" to create an additional leadership bubble, rather than to make some random veteran sergeant into a hero. Likewise most of the other wargear.

Hence, other than wishing Ogryns were useful and that there was any value in taking psykers (like make a psychic hood?), I really hope they forget to redo the IG codex.

ash_wednesday
16-05-2007, 21:05
The only real good use for a psyker is cheap cannon fodder for your commanding officer. At 12 pts he's one more guy to die in your command squad before your commander dies.

Everything else about him sucks. His powers aren't really useful. His stats suck. Sure you can give him a power weapon or a force weapon, but with his low stats, it's just isn't worth the pts.

But for 12 pts it turns your command squad from 5 models to 6 models. It might be enough to let your commander use his powerfist before he dies in combat.

Grand Master Raziel
16-05-2007, 21:08
Well, from what I've seen, one of the biggest factors that hamper success with an IG army is that virtually every IG player I've ever seen totally relies on shooting to win him the game. Thus, they tend to not have a plan for what to do when a semi-decent assault unit hits their lines. A game I saw between an IG and a SW player is illustrative of this. The first few turns were great for the IG player, then a pack of Wolf Scouts pops into play behind his lines, pretty much ending the game but for 3-4 turns of IG screaming and dying. Don't get me wrong, shooting is the IG's strong suit, but IG players should expect to get assaulted and have a plan for dealing with it - for the record, grumbling about not being able to shoot into close combat is not a plan.

don_mondo
16-05-2007, 21:19
Hey Don, ever think you're maybe the exception, not the rule?

Nahhhh, I'm just.......... different..............

Col.Gravis
16-05-2007, 21:29
Well, from what I've seen, one of the biggest factors that hamper success with an IG army is that virtually every IG player I've ever seen totally relies on shooting to win him the game. Thus, they tend to not have a plan for what to do when a semi-decent assault unit hits their lines. A game I saw between an IG and a SW player is illustrative of this. The first few turns were great for the IG player, then a pack of Wolf Scouts pops into play behind his lines, pretty much ending the game but for 3-4 turns of IG screaming and dying. Don't get me wrong, shooting is the IG's strong suit, but IG players should expect to get assaulted and have a plan for dealing with it - for the record, grumbling about not being able to shoot into close combat is not a plan.

Well if heavy infantry is the problem the answer is roughriders, sure they're one use, but they're also damn cheap for the potential damage they can do in assault - and if all else fails we still have numbers, chuck enough guardsmen into the mix and you can bring down most basic and assault troops types, man for man guard are poor in assault yes, but as an army in assault they're not as bad as many people give them credit for.

ash_wednesday
16-05-2007, 21:31
The way I use the IG for assualt is that I charge the other player first knowing full well that the squad will die. It holds up the other squad for a bit. Hopefuly the squad I used the charge is a bit away from other squads.

Basicly I try and hold up the other squad for a turn or two hopeful I can kill a few. When my squad finally dies, my other squads (which by then should be in rappid fire range, but not close enough to get charged by the victors) will shoot the reminding models.

Or if I have a lot of squads to spare, I charge more then one squad at the other player's squad. With 20 models charging 1 squad, a lot of dice are rolled, which helps even the odds.

Winimperial
16-05-2007, 21:33
I believe on of the major problems with the guard is the lack of different guard factions. The only affordable ones as of now are the Cadians. Voystrons are great models but they are metal and expensive. Catchans are just...I don't know but they're just really un-attractive looking to me. Guard are supposed to be about diversity in different factions. Now the only guard armies you see out there are Cadians. Can you say Boring?! Sure The old guard armies and forge world guard are still available, but who wants to pay $50-60 for a 10 man squad? Whenever the IG codex gets updated(god knows when that will be) GW should realease more factions. All they'd really need to do is give each faction a plastic troops boxed set, plastic heavy weapons box set, and an officer blister.

Hlokk
16-05-2007, 21:43
Trenchfoot is a type of disease which makes your feet rot (also known as jungle rot) due to humid conditions, bad hygiene and people not having a chance to doff their boots often enough to let them dry.
And itīs real, not fictional.
Strange but true story: I know a stable lad called Alex who was diagnosed with that last year. Didn't shower for about 6 months and always wore sweaty socks.

Major guard problems, as far as I can tell, are:

1: Overpointing of heavy weapons. example: Marines pay 5 pts for a heavy bolter as BS4, guard pay 15 points for one at BS3. I suppose I see the logic in that marines can only field one per troops choice, whereas guard can field 6, but it should be 10 points.

2: Not taking many squads: Lots of people I know take a small platoon, an armoured fist squad and 3 russes. I always field 5 full squads minimum. Why: They can take objectives and the psychological impact of staring down 100 lasgun barrels is quite amusing.

3: Ogryns and ratlings: Are just a bit poo to be honest.

4: Droptrooping: Why? An army that specialises in heavy static firepower dropping all over the table with a chance of being obliterated.


I think you are allowed to photocopy 10-15% of a document for personal use (at least, thats what it is here at uni.)

The Copyright, Desins and Patents Act 1988 allows you to make single copies of:

One article from any issue of a periodical
Up to 5% or one chapter from a book for research or private study

Hooter Hunter
16-05-2007, 22:13
For a long time I thought of the movement with IG to be a HUGE problem, then I discovered Remnant Squads. Oh these are a joy to use. Your opponent will wipe them out, or expend far to much firepower in trying to do so that they forget or overlook another squad that gets to move/shoot another turn. They are great linebreakers and with the right Docs can hold the enemy for quite some time. Give them a flamer and they are death incarnate if ignored. They always earn their pts and are usually less than 60.

Also Rattlings are the IG's unsung secret weapons. They can pin and take down even the biggest boys on the block. Take them in a full squad of 10 and they are devastating so much that after a while you will have to drop them from your army because every one tries to kill them on the first turn.

Also I think it was Jacka who pointed out that indeed 1500 pts and less it is a struggle for the IG to compete at all. Toss us a 1800 and up game, then its time for the ole pie plate smack down,as well as having more troops. Much more balanced.

Firstandonly14
16-05-2007, 22:27
Also Rattlings are the IG's unsung secret weapons. They can pin and take down even the biggest boys on the block. Take them in a full squad of 10 and they are devastating so much that after a while you will have to drop them from your army because every one tries to kill them on the first turn.

Also I think it was Jacka who pointed out that indeed 1500 pts and less it is a struggle for the IG to compete at all. Toss us a 1800 and up game, then its time for the ole pie plate smack down,as well as having more troops. Much more balanced.

*sigh* my poor fluff won't let me take ratlings. Ah well...

I agree with you and Jacka we need the extra points to really become effective on the battle field. I hope they will change this!

jfrazell
16-05-2007, 22:44
*sigh* my poor fluff won't let me take ratlings. Ah well...

I agree with you and Jacka we need the extra points to really become effective on the battle field. I hope they will change this!
Use ratling stats. Just make them "sharpshooters." Its an excuse to use regular sniper models, which are impressive.

Stella Cadente
16-05-2007, 22:56
after reading most posts it looks like some weirdos basically want the guard to be space marines, HAHA, guard are great how they are, I can get 130+ men with doctrines and 3 vanquishers in 2000pts easily, and that scares alot of players.

and what are people moaning about MEQ weapons for, lasguns are the ultimate terminator killer, no terminator can pass a save from a lasgun.

and we have enough Ordnance to make America feint

I'm sorry but the problem is not the guard at all

Slaaneshi Slave
16-05-2007, 23:03
120 is not a lot, I can fit 120 Sisters of Battle into a 2,000 point army, and still have points left for the three heavy support choices!

Hooter Hunter
17-05-2007, 00:08
.

and what are people moaning about MEQ weapons for, lasguns are the ultimate terminator killer, no terminator can pass a save from a lasgun.



:D

So true. I have hit Termies with Lascannons and they make their 5+save. Then I move over to the two squads of Las rifle armed Guardsmen (with sharpshooters doc:evilgrin: ) double tap and ba da bing watch no less than 5 Termies roll 1's for their save. Its a beautiful thing.

Then again I once watched a mob Grots take out a Bloodthirster just because they had him outnumbered for 3 turns in arow. That was hillarious. Or was it a SM Dread? Either way...

Feran
17-05-2007, 00:24
:D

So true. I have hit Termies with Lascannons and they make their 5+save. Then I move over to the two squads of Las rifle armed Guardsmen (with sharpshooters doc:evilgrin: ) double tap and ba da bing watch no less than 5 Termies roll 1's for their save. Its a beautiful thing.

Then again I once watched a mob Grots take out a Bloodthirster just because they had him outnumbered for 3 turns in arow. That was hillarious. Or was it a SM Dread? Either way...

Lasguns are effective in mass numbers, and are perfect for killing the unsuspecting terminator chaplains. Bring them down with autocannons but finish them with lasguns. Works every time.... but not really :eyebrows:

Seriously guard are good... but a few tweaks here and there would be nice... Cough "5 point guardsmen"

cailus
17-05-2007, 00:52
I personally think that the IG is a pretty good list. I don't play it but I've faced it plenty of times and have usually struggled even with my mobile marines. Copious amounts of firepower backed up by solid Leman Russ battletanks makes a Guard army a difficult proposition.

Two of the regular IG players at my club simply don't lose while the other IG players are generally pretty good. The two elite players usually win with massacres.

My only problem is that they all play similar lists and they will usually tailor lists to meet opponents. They also have an aversion to to terrain and actively oppose the use of it. I've already griped about the Guard player who knew I'd be playing Orks, so in 750 points took 2 Leman Russes and a Hellhound and minimised his troops by taking 2 small squads of grenadiers.

ChrisAsmadi
17-05-2007, 01:00
I personally think that the IG is a pretty good list. I don't play it but I've faced it plenty of times and have usually struggled even with my mobile marines. Copious amounts of firepower backed up by solid Leman Russ battletanks makes a Guard army a difficult proposition.

Two of the regular IG players at my club simply don't lose while the other IG players are generally. The two elite players usually win with massacres.

My only problem is that they all play similar lists and they will usually tailor lists to meet opponents. They also have an aversion to to terrain and actively oppose the use of it. I've already griped about the Guard player who knew I'd be playing Orks, so in 750 points took 2 Leman Russes and a Hellhound and minimised his troops by taking 2 small squads of grenadiers.

Well, tailoring your lists is cheap, even to a minor degree such as bringing a Callidus Assasin vs Tau.

As for the guard list, I think it's ok, save some overcosted choices (such as HW) and some crummy stuff (Sentinels, Ogryns.)

Firstandonly14
17-05-2007, 01:18
people will always tailor their list. Put it like this, if there is a SM player knowing he is going to face nids he is going to buy heavy bolters right?

For me, if I know what type of army I am up against I still go for balance. Who knows what kind of tricks they may have. I will say this, do restle with my doctrine choices from time to time between sharpshooters and grenadiers (my last choice) but I always let my oppenent know and it does not change because of their army, it is because my mood my might be different that day :rolleyes:

Quick edit: I am a fluff freak so I hate changing any doctrines, but those two booth fit the fluff of my army and I always do battle trying to find which fits best.

Polonius
17-05-2007, 04:07
Hmm, what are the problems with the IG? Well, as another poster pointed out, you can win tournaments with the IG. You can also do well at GTs. There are a couple of strong builds, that with the right luck, the right missions, the right terrain, and a skilled player making few, if any, mistakes can truly succeed. Also, at and above 2000pts, the IG become rock hard. Being able to take more beef while your opponents are adding more fixings makes it a tough army.

That all said, the Dark Eldar were still winning tournies when they got a revision, as were the Tau, and even the space marines, and all three got a substantial boost. The IG have a couple of problems that would be nice if were adjusted:
1) lack of durable units. More than mobility, what the IG lack is a single tough unit that can really survive a game to claim objectives. Hammerheads, Falcons, termie squads, rangers, etc. are all units that can survive dedicated shooting if in cover. Outside of conscripts, not a single IG squad can survive a dedicated effort to dislodge them.
2) Chimeras are overcosted or under armored. Compared to any other transport, they are expensive, fragile, and not overly punchy. In quantities over 5 they become deadly, as you can constantly present a wall of AV12 to your opponent. Solo, they are far too easy to flank and destroy.
3) The basic platoon would be OK if properly supported, but the basic guardsman is awful, and the weapons upgrades cost a lot. I'd recommend dropping the cost of all heavy weapons by 5pts.
4) Time to deploy/move. You get better with practice, but if you're fighting another horde army, you will probably not finish, especially if either player is stalling at all.

The IG are really only a few tweaks away from being a competitor, unlike the Orks (who need a re-write). One pet peeve: too many duff units. Psykers, Priests, Techpriests, Ogryn, and mortars are all just bad. No other codex has as many unusable units. Add in overrated/overcosted choices like Stormtroopers, hellhounds, sentinals, commissars, and the above mentioned chimera, and half the codex is basically filler. You need the filler, but it would be nice to pick them up a little.

Finally, here are some things that aren't wrong with the IG:
1) Leadership. It's a trait of the army, and there are plenty of ways to boost it (COD, veteran sgts, Officers, voxes)
2) Counter assault. Rough riders are amazing for one shot countercharge, Conscripts can tie an enemy up for a while, officers with flamers and power weapons add a little punch, and Allies like Kroot or Grey Knight terminators help a lot.

CushionRide
17-05-2007, 07:40
the main problem of the imp guard is you need a fortune or a six figure income to make the army

cailus
17-05-2007, 07:59
1) lack of durable units. More than mobility, what the IG lack is a single tough unit that can really survive a game to claim objectives. Hammerheads, Falcons, termie squads, rangers, etc. are all units that can survive dedicated shooting if in cover. Outside of conscripts, not a single IG squad can survive a dedicated effort to dislodge them.

Orks definitely suffer from this problem. A 6+ save and 6 inch movement really hurts. The lack of adequate fire support means that dislodging even 10 measly Guardsmen in cover can be a serious problem.


2) Chimeras are overcosted or under armored. Compared to any other transport, they are expensive, fragile, and not overly punchy. In quantities over 5 they become deadly, as you can constantly present a wall of AV12 to your opponent. Solo, they are far too easy to flank and destroy.

Ork trukks are death traps - open topped and AV10. They can be purchased only by a small number of units. Other Ork options are looted Rhinos from which they generally cannot charge or the Battlewagon which we can purchase 1 and is open-topped and of which most penetrating hits will kill most of the Orks it's transporting.



3) The basic platoon would be OK if properly supported, but the basic guardsman is awful, and the weapons upgrades cost a lot. I'd recommend dropping the cost of all heavy weapons by 5pts.

Basic Ork is rubbish. In a fight between 150 points of marines and 150 points of Orks, the Marines kill all but 3 Orks before the Orks get a chance to charge.

Ork weapons are expensive and innacurate. A Big Shoota costs as much as an Ork. Most Ork anti-tank has a range of only 24 inches and rarely gets above S8. You can loot lascannons but there's a chance that they will kill the Orks using them.


4) Time to deploy/move. You get better with practice, but if you're fighting another horde army, you will probably not finish, especially if either player is stalling at all.

Most Guard players don't move. Orks on the other hand often involve moving 90+ models in turn 1, 60 models in turn 2 and going home in turn 3.


too many duff units. Psykers, Priests, Techpriests, Ogryn, and mortars are all just bad. No other codex has as many unusable units. Add in overrated/overcosted choices like Stormtroopers, hellhounds, sentinals, commissars, and the above mentioned chimera, and half the codex is basically filler. You need the filler, but it would be nice to pick them up a little.

A lot of Ork wargear (Uge Choppa, Grabba Stikk, some aspects of the KFF with regards to vehicles), blasta weapons upgrade are all junk. Many Ork units are superfluous in the standard list and don't serve a purpose (e.g. Stikkbommas). Most people consider me mad cause I use Ard Boyz and Stormboyz.


Finally, here are some things that aren't wrong with the IG:
1) Leadership. It's a trait of the army, and there are plenty of ways to boost it (COD, veteran sgts, Officers, voxes)
2) Counter assault. Rough riders are amazing for one shot countercharge, Conscripts can tie an enemy up for a while, officers with flamers and power weapons add a little punch, and Allies like Kroot or Grey Knight terminators help a lot.

Things that aren't wrong with Orks:

1. They're Orks.

Vaktathi
17-05-2007, 08:03
the main problem of the imp guard is you need a fortune or a six figure income to make the army

you can do a normal guard army for roughly the same price as most others with Cadians.

ChaosTicket
17-05-2007, 10:17
well if you want some basic things here.

Guardsmen have a 5+ save that is penetrated by almost all enemy anti-infantry fire. Guardsmen in return don't ignore any armor, so even gaunta get a 6+ save.

Guardsmen only have 2 melee units(ogryns and Rough riders) in the army and they suffer the same problems regular guardsmen face. Bolters, shuriken catapults, gauss flayers, all kill guardsmen in droves.

In turn guardsmen need Carapace armor to function, and this raises their costs by 33%.

Here's some upgarades i want. I want to see a 4+ save and a AP5 weapon on all my guardsmen for 2 points. Then enemies have to actually do more than fire lots of Anti infantry shots and swarms of gaunts and orks at me.

Guardsmen can be killed by anything, can't kill anything and heavy weapons are WAY over priced. Then guardsmen vehicles get the same treatment, especially now that Ordnance weapons are less damaging and more inaccurate than ever before.

azimaith
17-05-2007, 10:31
I was just wondering: I have never seen IG doing well in Tournaments and considering all my games, the least problems is had with my Nids was against IG. Until now i thought, that the factors here were, that Nids just do well against IG, but maybe there is more to it.

Are IG underpowered? And if yes, why?
The problem with IG is the rather braindead missions in 40k.

While IG as it is designed can do well enough on a "kill everything" mission. The army lacks mobility and staying power. Because of that they'll have a hard time claiming objectives against more mobile armies like tau or eldar.

Because they are so slow IG require several turns to get into position while other armies can just pop in on turn 6. Of course in 40k you don't even get a damn cookie for standing on the objective for 4 turns. If your not on there at turn 6 its too bad for you. This hurts the IG army further as they need to move in several turns early, suffering from sub-optimal firing because of movement and suffering large numbers of casualties because they need to leave cover, then they need to get to an objective and sustain there for several more turns. A mobile enemy can practically ignore the objective for turn after turn after turn before zipping to it as their very last move.

They can optimize their shooting for several turns and sacrifice very little on the very last turn.

This problem is unfortunately epidemic among many armies. IG, Tyranids, Orks all have problems. They can't sustain because of either low toughness, low armor, or an emphasis on assault to do damage.

Playing footslogging orks is a good example. You have toughness but no armor, and you need to go back toward the objective by the turns your nearly at grips with your enemy on assault to get there in time. While an enemy with say a falcon, can just shoot you for 5 turns, zip to the objective on turn 6, and wait there.

IG and many other armies would be so much better off if the missions rewarded *holding* an objective for turn after turn rather than silly last turn grabs.

LostTemplar
17-05-2007, 10:33
Actually ordenance if far better than it was in 3rd edition.. at least you can move and shoot, and indirect is just buffed up...

What I think is wrong with the imperial Guard...

1. Lack of a 0-1 Generic Marine Squad. Come on, admit it, it'd be cool to have one single Tactical squad as an Elite choice. Don't need anymore than that, it'd be fluffy but not overly powerfull.

2. Storm Troopers and Carapace armour should be relativly more common and cheaper to get.

3. Everyone should have a Lasgun, Laspistol and Frag. No kraks. everyoen should be Mechanised (IE: Beign able to have either a Rhino (For the most common tank in the Imperium it certainly isn't used in the most common fighting force of the Imperium...) or a Chimera)

3. Lack of upgrade options for individual squads. This fits with poitn 2, but, here's what I'm saying... You should be able to buy doctrines for squads rather than armies, at specific costs, which would basically either increase ballistic skill, armour, weaponery, tranpost ability, etc.

4. Leman Russes should have the option of becoming Exterminator, Annihilator, Demolisher and Vanquisher at listed costs under their entry.

5. Option of putting your command squads/sections in tanks (Leman russes or salamandras, for instance) at listed costs. Those within Leman Russes would not provide leadership bonuses to troops.

6. ...And much much more!

Mr Zephy
17-05-2007, 10:41
1. Deathwatch
2. That's be tau
3. They can
4. FW
5. Armoured Company
6. Don't be silly

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 12:32
after reading most posts it looks like some weirdos basically want the guard to be space marines, HAHA, guard are great how they are, I can get 130+ men with doctrines and 3 vanquishers in 2000pts easily, and that scares alot of players.

and what are people moaning about MEQ weapons for, lasguns are the ultimate terminator killer, no terminator can pass a save from a lasgun.

and we have enough Ordnance to make America feint

I'm sorry but the problem is not the guard at all
*Vanquishers are not tourney legal
*Ordnance, well she ain't what she used to be.
*lasguns are irrelevant to a Tau or eldar skimmer.
*130 men is not that great. Words to fear-drop podding dreadnought with heavy flamer...

Gen.Steiner
17-05-2007, 12:33
1. Lack of a 0-1 Generic Marine Squad. Come on, admit it, it'd be cool to have one single Tactical squad as an Elite choice. Don't need anymore than that, it'd be fluffy but not overly powerfull.

:eek: No. Absolutely not. It wouldn't adhere to the background. If you want to take Marines in your Guard list, bring an Inquisitor and some allies.


2. Storm Troopers and Carapace armour should be relativly more common and cheaper to get.

Mmmm nope.


3. Everyone should have a Lasgun, Laspistol and Frag. No kraks. everyoen should be Mechanised

I agree with the lasgun and frags (happily pay 6pts per figure if everyone, officers included, started with lasrifles and frag grenades), but laspistols no. And have you ever even TRIED collecting a Mechanised army?! No WAY should Mechanised be the standard list.


3. Lack of upgrade options for individual squads. This fits with poitn 2, but, here's what I'm saying...

They already can, really.


4. Leman Russes should have the option of becoming Exterminator, Annihilator, Demolisher and Vanquisher at listed costs under their entry.

A fair point. But that's what Forgeworld is for. :p


5. Option of putting your command squads/sections in tanks (Leman russes or salamandras, for instance) at listed costs. Those within Leman Russes would not provide leadership bonuses to troops.

Nah, again, Forgeworld has this covered with their Armoured Battlegroup list from Imperial Armour volume 1.

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 12:38
IG and many other armies would be so much better off if the missions rewarded *holding* an objective for turn after turn rather than silly last turn grabs.

Very good points Azi.

superknijn
17-05-2007, 12:43
Funny how some of the above posters see the things that make the IG the IG as disadvantages. You know what, lets make all Guardsman Bs4, Ld8 base, armed with hellguns, free frags,carapace armoured and allow them an extra weapon. Or just make stormtroopers 4 points cheaper and give them heavy weapons :rolleyes:

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 12:48
BS 3 guardsmen are fine. Hard cardfboard as armor is also just fine (easier on the hands to avoid all those armor save rolls). However, they should be priced appropriately. Under any mathhammer you use guardsmen and ST's are overcosted. Lemans and Chimeras are also overcosted under V4. The IG codex represents an excellent example of a good try. With slight points tweeking on some of the costs, guard could be a tier one codex and retain their character.

Having said all that. After seeing the DA codex and chaos rumors, I'm ok with just leaving it alone. GW would likely butcher out the doctrines, armored company etc.

xibo
17-05-2007, 12:54
Actually ordenance if far better than it was in 3rd edition.. at least you can move and shoot, and indirect is just buffed up...

What I think is wrong with the imperial Guard...

1. Lack of a 0-1 Generic Marine Squad. Come on, admit it, it'd be cool to have one single Tactical squad as an Elite choice. Don't need anymore than that, it'd be fluffy but not overly powerfull.

2. Storm Troopers and Carapace armour should be relativly more common and cheaper to get.

3. Everyone should have a Lasgun, Laspistol and Frag. No kraks. everyoen should be Mechanised (IE: Beign able to have either a Rhino (For the most common tank in the Imperium it certainly isn't used in the most common fighting force of the Imperium...) or a Chimera)

3. Lack of upgrade options for individual squads. This fits with poitn 2, but, here's what I'm saying... You should be able to buy doctrines for squads rather than armies, at specific costs, which would basically either increase ballistic skill, armour, weaponery, tranpost ability, etc.

4. Leman Russes should have the option of becoming Exterminator, Annihilator, Demolisher and Vanquisher at listed costs under their entry.

5. Option of putting your command squads/sections in tanks (Leman russes or salamandras, for instance) at listed costs. Those within Leman Russes would not provide leadership bonuses to troops.

6. ...And much much more!

Hmmm... we need guessing for the sole puropse of our griffons 'accidently' hit killakanz in CC with our conscripts... damn where's the griffon gone?

1. Power Armours are for women and weaklings. Therefore my choice goes on the women, two squads of them and a squad of seraphim

2. Stormtroopers are the elite of the elite of the elite. they are not common. Carapace armour can be common but it's a ballancing thing. Grenadiers however should be affected by regimental doctrines

3.1. I don't want my basic guardsmen to go up by 1 point for the fact he has frag grenades he can't even throw in 4th ed.

3.2. Most upgrades already do. Also, if you want a mobile squad, why not easily take a armoured fist?

4. Want my griffon!

5. Hmmm... so basically BS4 russ... and sacrificing your guardsmen LD?

6. Major Soleis wants his lasgun back! Bolt-Crap is just too unrelieable...

superknijn
17-05-2007, 12:56
Too bad we'll have to wait another 3 years for the next IG update...

don_mondo
17-05-2007, 13:16
I'll add my vote to those that would like to see all of our tanks become standard codex options again. Bring back the Vanquisher, Exterminator, Griffon, etc. Yes, I know that they are available in Imperial Armour. But since this started as an "IG in tourneys" thread, I'll point out that many tourneys (especially US GTs) do not allow IA. So bring back the tanks!!
(I know, seems odd that a guy who runs no tanks wants them back, but I do.....)

Hooter Hunter
17-05-2007, 13:27
As to wanting the Griffon back- go with the FW Heavy Mortars. They do the same thing and you can take a battery of 3 for 150 pts and it only takes up 1 Heavy slot:evilgrin:

ashc
17-05-2007, 13:37
No need to bring back the tanks if they just made IA or most of the options from IA tournament legal.

Ash

Crippler
17-05-2007, 13:41
Why are Imperial Armour Books not allowed in GT's, they are all owned by the same company!!!

Not played in a GT myself but was just wondering:confused:

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 13:47
Thats a very interesting question Crippler. Answer? Don't know.

Voodoo Boyz
17-05-2007, 13:51
Problem with the IG?

They're T3, 5+ Save troopers with S3 and S3 Guns.

With the current rules and weapons load outs available to most armies the game heavily favors armies with high armor saves. Almost every army that's "tier 1" loads out on things with either high armor saves or things that are in general hard to kill (Skimmers).

They're easy to kill (and their tanks can be pretty easy to kill too). Much like the problem of the Orks, the way the games rules and army structures play out, they're fighting up hill.

The best IG armies I've seen focused on 1 of 3 aspects.

Armor Overload (ie Mech Guard).
Body/Gun Overload (all infantry Las/Plas/Heavy Bolter Guard).
Drop Troop Guard (lots of Melta/Plasma and playing off the fact that individual squads are expendible while not offering enemies an easy chance to consolodate safely into CC like the above style).

The game favors MEQ's or high armor save units for the most part (with some exceptions), and IG don't have the exceptions that make them really work (in many types of missions at least).

tuebor
17-05-2007, 14:27
Seriously guard are good... but a few tweaks here and there would be nice... Cough "5 point guardsmen"

It would also be nice if they tweaked some of the less used units. Guard can win, but having Ogryns, Psykers, Techpriests, Mortars, etc. certainly don't do much except take up points.

Colonel Jacka
17-05-2007, 14:38
I'll add my vote to those that would like to see all of our tanks become standard codex options again. Bring back the Vanquisher, Exterminator, Griffon, etc. Yes, I know that they are available in Imperial Armour. But since this started as an "IG in tourneys" thread, I'll point out that many tourneys (especially US GTs) do not allow IA. So bring back the tanks!!
(I know, seems odd that a guy who runs no tanks wants them back, but I do.....)


Hmmm! This seems to be an US thing. I have played most of the standard Ruse and Chimera variants in Tourney's in OZ! I find this really odd. The Vanquisher, Exterminator, Griffin can still be used. They are standard Guard systems. I have heard this before but have never seen proof of it! I play my forge world stuff all the time and when I have played the Baneblade in big games. My opponents have always said "Bring it on!"

xibo
17-05-2007, 14:38
They do the same thing and you can take a battery of 3 for 150 pts and it only takes up 1 Heavy slot:evilgrin:
They can, but their rules say each hm consists of a mortar and 3 guardsmen; you can buy up to 2 additional guardsmen...
Maybe it's just me but isn't there a honour-based problem if you start equipping guns with men ( same goes for eldar guardians ) instead of equipping men with guns?

And the heavy mortar squads cant drive over tank huntaz :D

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 14:57
Ok just points, assuming no IG changes otherwise or V4

*All point costs apply to individuals, not per squad. All current point costs divided by ten to reference their future cost.
*Guardsmen- drop by a point. Conscripts drop by a point as well.
*ST’s drop to 9 points (5 + 2 carapace +2 for improved BS). That puts them more in line with SOB’s (+1 armor +1 bolter)
*drop missile launchers by 5 points (if wanting to keep the lascannon thing more special for the marines). Same for missile launchers and autocannons. This makes their weaponry more inexpensive but reserves the more techie stuff as more expensive reflecting elite status.
*drop grenade launchers by 2 points.
*increase plasma by 5 points (heresy I know) for all non-ST’s. See techie note above.
I don’t know Ogryns so I’ll leave that for another person.

Lemans: Drop the base cost by 25 points, to 125 points
Chimeras: Drop the base cost by 20 points, to 65 points with multilaser/heavy bolter combo.
Basi-leave alone
Sentinel: drop base cost by 10 (45 for a lascannon sentinel)

Slaaneshi Slave
17-05-2007, 15:03
Why should Chimeras be 65, when Rhinos are 50 with no hevay weaponry and less armour?

Crippler
17-05-2007, 15:18
There appears to be another post about the question I posted about FW models.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84563

SaGa Jr
17-05-2007, 15:38
Why should Chimeras be 65, when Rhinos are 50 with no hevay weaponry and less armour?

The new line of SM codexes (or codicies?), like DA and BA contains a cheaper rhino variant and cheaper vehicles (predator destructor variant under 100 points).
35 points for basic rhino with smoke and searchlight. This vehicle have a better side armour and only a little weaker front armour than the chimera.

If the rhinos goes down to 35 point from 50 (-30%), than the chimeras point cost go down to 50 (from 70) points without weapons. Maybe 60 and have better armour.

At this moment the chimera easily blow up by a bolter/bolt pistol/slugga/shoota from its sides. This is no good. The chimeras are front line infantry support and transport vehicles not just simple tranports. Needs better side armour and a little lower point cost.
Even the tau skimmer APC overwhelms this vehicle and costs less, have better upgrade options, better protection and very good weapon options.

Polonius
17-05-2007, 15:39
Why should Chimeras be 65, when Rhinos are 50 with no hevay weaponry and less armour?

Because Rhinos are universally considered overcosted in 4th edition. (see new DA codex). Because rhinos transport durable, deadly units, while the Chimera transports soft, easily killed guardsman. And, most importantly, the Chimera only has higher armor on the front. Nearly every army (except the IG) has a fast vehicle that can get a shot on the AV10 sides of the Chimera. It is a weakness far beyond the advantage AV12 to the front gives. Consider this: at AV11, heavy bolters and Burst cannon glance on a 6. On AV10, those same weapons glance on a 5 and Penetrate on a 6. Since a penetrating hit is twice as good as a glance against transports (counting immobilized and destroyed results), that's basically three times as much chance of serious damage. Every pen also stuns the chimera, so it can't shoot.

narlix
17-05-2007, 15:44
Why should Chimeras be 65, when Rhinos are 50 with no hevay weaponry and less armour?


with the new books rhinos are 35 with smoke and spot light.

at 65 they are still more expesive than a new razor back but have twice the shots but only bs 3 sounds fair.

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 15:48
Why should Chimeras be 65, when Rhinos are 50 with no hevay weaponry and less armour?


1. DA codex they are a good deal cheaper. I'd give good money thats more the base cost going forward.
2. Tracked vehicles should be cheaper to account for skimmer capabilities under V4. Note vs. Tau vehicles the transport option is a steal.
3. Rhinos have better side armor. 65 is on par with a razorback. Twinlinked heavy bolter at BS4 is on par with the combined shooting of multilaser and H bolter (3 hits vs. 2.66 hits from a razorback).
4. Note I said no changes to the chimera itself. After playtesting a 15 point drop might be more appropriate-but would require playtesting. Give me 11 side armor, option for an autocannon or twin linked H Bolter turrent and the current pricing is more appropriate. Especially the twin linked heavy bolter. My mech guard rocked with that old FW option.

Polonius
17-05-2007, 15:51
Orks definitely suffer from this problem. A 6+ save and 6 inch movement really hurts. The lack of adequate fire support means that dislodging even 10 measly Guardsmen in cover can be a serious problem.


Things that aren't wrong with Orks:

1. They're Orks.

While your points are, for the most part, valid, I don't think that pointing out that the IG share elements with the single weakest codex in the game is exactly a ringing endorsement of quality. I think that when you eliminate a the handful of opinions on either extreme ("IG are perfect and awesome as is" and "IG should have hellguns, and carapace armor, and ATSKNF, and feel no pain, and cost 2pts a guy"), most people consider the IG codex to be evocative, viable, and fun. What they would like is enough of a boost, similar to what the tau got a year ago, to become a competitive list outside of a few arenas.

Right now, IMO there are what, a half a dozen competitive codices?
CSM
Space Marines
Eldar
Tyranid
Tau Empire
Witchhunters (the mega rhino, 3 exorcist build)

than there are the "on a good day, the juices can flow" codices:
Necrons
Dark Eldar
IG

And then there are the codices that can't get a break:
Black Templar (though maybe the drop pod list is better...)
Space Wolves (V4 hit them hard....)
Daemonhunters (it was never meant to be competitive)
Dark Angels (unless the combi wing or whatever is better than I think)
Orks

Dark angels and Black Templar can play as Codex Marines, Wolves are getting a new Codex soon, and the Daemonhunters... well, they look cool. Orks need a total re-write, pretty much from scratch.

Necrons, Dark Eldar, and IG only need a small boost to their most effective builds to become as competitive as the top six. That's the point of this thread.

Note: I know I left out the blood angels. I haven't really absorbed their new List, so I have no clue where to put them.

DigitsDavid
17-05-2007, 16:04
I've always considered the lack of a true "fast attack" vehicle a real draw back. Most armies have at least one unit or vehicle that can zip across the field to either take or take out this or that, allowing the player the ability to influence the developing nature of the board. IG usually pretty much just adopt a slow or static base line because of this. This unfortunately makes IG predictable and therefore easy to defeat.

Commissar Vaughn
17-05-2007, 16:16
Salamanders are the only high speed objective grabber I spose.

MAybe guard would perform better in objectve taking if the gun line stood still and gave covering fire and in turn 6 three sallys heads hell for leather for the objective and turn it into a tank park.

I reckon they should simply add them in to the list. But cheaper!

don_mondo
17-05-2007, 16:23
As to wanting the Griffon back- go with the FW Heavy Mortars. They do the same thing and you can take a battery of 3 for 150 pts and it only takes up 1 Heavy slot:evilgrin:

Well, US and UK GTs don't allow Imperial Armour (Griffon) so they're certainly not going to allow FW online rules. That's why I'd like to see it back in the codex, so I can use it in any tourney without having to rely on them allowing IA/FW.


Hmmm! This seems to be an US thing. I have played most of the standard Ruse and Chimera variants in Tourney's in OZ! I find this really odd. The Vanquisher, Exterminator, Griffin can still be used. They are standard Guard systems. I have heard this before but have never seen proof of it! I play my forge world stuff all the time and when I have played the Baneblade in big games. My opponents have always said "Bring it on!"

I've tried to find the Oz GT rules in the past (was plannig a trip there this fall.....) and couldn't find them. US/UK GTs don't allow IA for whatever reason.
Local and Independent tourneys vary. Some allow IA, some don't. Always best to ask the organizer. Our club allows anything but superheavies/mass points in our regular tournies (Have to qualify that as I'm running a GT style tourney in a couple weeks using GT rules).


Salamanders are the only high speed objective grabber I spose.


So yet another option that requires IA to use.............??

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 16:54
Well, US and UK GTs don't allow Imperial Armour (Griffon) so they're certainly not going to allow FW online rules. That's why I'd like to see it back in the codex, so I can use it in any tourney without having to rely on them allowing IA/FW.



I've tried to find the Oz GT rules in the past (was plannig a trip there this fall.....) and couldn't find them. US/UK GTs don't allow IA for whatever reason.
Local and Independent tourneys vary. Some allow IA, some don't. Always best to ask the organizer. Our club allows anything but superheavies/mass points in our regular tournies (Have to qualify that as I'm running a GT style tourney in a couple weeks using GT rules).



So yet another option that requires IA to use.............??

Yes thats the problem. Besides the cost of IA books (yikes), in a tourney situation all these nifty options are irrelevant. Give me a LKeman Annihilator with twinlinked lascannons and I'll make marines cry...

ashc
17-05-2007, 17:01
Like i said, as opposed to ending up with a ridiculously large armoured vehicle section for guard and reprinting a load of stuff thats already out GW could just allow vehicles from IA minus superheavies and things with mass points in their own tournaments.

A simple answer, surely?

Ash

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 17:14
That would work for me. ashc.
Its a win win-
more competitive list,
more accepted list for opponents,
more sales for GW.

ashc
17-05-2007, 17:18
exactly.

It would also nail that age old argument of 'i ain't facing that, it isn't tournament legal!' in your day to day pick up and play games. :rolleyes:

Ash

don_mondo
17-05-2007, 18:06
Like i said, as opposed to ending up with a ridiculously large armoured vehicle section for guard and reprinting a load of stuff thats already out GW could just allow vehicles from IA minus superheavies and things with mass points in their own tournaments.

A simple answer, surely?

Ash

Oh, I agree. Maybe someday..............

Hooter Hunter
17-05-2007, 18:54
Ok I have a question for ya'll. I seem to remember some time ago (dont ask how long) seeing an article in Chapter approved for different FW tanks and even VDR rules. Am I wrong on this but if its in CA the it is legal? That is my understanding, but then again you would have to have the CA article to use it.

Bunnahabhain
17-05-2007, 19:43
The single biggest change to make the Guard more competitive would be to make Storm troopers in a Valkyrie a codex choice. You now have your fast objective grabber. It's not overpowered, nor under-costed, and nothing with AV 10 is a game breaker.

don_mondo
17-05-2007, 21:06
Ok I have a question for ya'll. I seem to remember some time ago (dont ask how long) seeing an article in Chapter approved for different FW tanks and even VDR rules. Am I wrong on this but if its in CA the it is legal? That is my understanding, but then again you would have to have the CA article to use it.

Not useable at GW US GTs, they banned the Armored Company as of this year.

NorthernMike
17-05-2007, 21:27
I don't agree with the Valkryie bit. They are way too expensive to "make guard competitive"

I do agree that the LR varients should be allowed as upgrades in the codex (shoot, they should even sell a boxed set sprue with the different turret weapon options = hotcakes). The exterminator is a fantastically competitive tank as is the griffon.

I would also like to see ogryns at T5. But the truth is that if you just fix a unit or two, then that's all you're going to see in the new "competitive" guard lists, and that's not great either. Imagine ogryns suddenly did get T5, and everyone put them into their lists to make them more competitive. Soon all the other lists would just use something to counter them then. Right now, it's seems to be more of a game of "I need this to counter that". I believe most things in the codex's are useable, some are worse and some are better, but the problems bigger than needing perfect unit options.

Most of the really competitive lists are armies that are mobile and can afford to move. Generally, guard lists are static. We stand and shoot as moving means less shooting. And so are handicapped right off the bat in most of the game types/scenarios.

I believe something that would help guard become more competitive would be a different type/set of senarios. As soon as it involves moving to secure, hold, take, guard are in trouble. Scenarios that are more defined by the actually armies playing the battle/game would make for a more competitive style guard.

Create a system where the game type is defined by who is playing who would also be a system where armies are fighting their type of battle rather than someone else's that they can't do very well. Why should guard try to play the same type of game against nids as marines? They generally fight wars in very different ways by fluff means and codex selection, so why not scenario? You may actually then start to see different units not normally used (rattlings, vespid, penitents, etc) because the games will just be more balanced from the start so you can afford to try out different generally unused units.

Hooter Hunter
17-05-2007, 21:55
Not useable at GW US GTs, they banned the Armored Company as of this year.

:rolleyes: :wtf:

I have been accused in the past of being paranoid after postin rants about how the IG gets their better tanks 86'd and the SW keeps the Exterminator and how it is GW playin favorite to the SM crowd. In the past I have even ranted on how when the SM and CSM whine :cries: they get something better but us poor lil Guardsmen get kicked in the crotch if we have anything that is good. And that just goes to prove my GW anti IG conspiracy theory.

Mark my words the IG will pay dearly for doin so well in the Medusa V campaign.:eek:

Firstandonly14
17-05-2007, 22:16
:rolleyes: :wtf:

I have been accused in the past of being paranoid after postin rants about how the IG gets their better tanks 86'd and the SW keeps the Exterminator and how it is GW playin favorite to the SM crowd. In the past I have even ranted on how when the SM and CSM whine :cries: they get something better but us poor lil Guardsmen get kicked in the crotch if we have anything that is good. And that just goes to prove my GW anti IG conspiracy theory.

Mark my words the IG will pay dearly for doin so well in the Medusa V campaign.

*Marks hoots words* well That is a bugger as jacka would put it. Why did they BAN the armoured comapny *in total disgust* why?


I don't think we will pay, if nothing else I think this is just proof that guardsmen rock. Pure and simple, you kick us in the crotch and we got about 10000000 more feet to kick you back with :p

jfrazell
17-05-2007, 22:39
Again the WD list is legal, just not GT legal.

xibo
18-05-2007, 02:09
Valkyries are AV11. Furthermore GW won't allow it because the 6 man lasplas crap would be effectively useless ( plasgun would fry itself more often than down a valkyrie due to valkyrie ignoring immobilzed with flares ) and assault cannons arent good because of being rending...
but by far more important: they are flyers.

My wishlist:

Wargear & Doctrines:
[-]down the points of the power fist ( currently are less effective yet more expensive than marines ones )
[-]free warriors weapons
[-]drop troops cost to +10P/Squad
[-]add auxillary grenade launchers, lasgun-meltas, lasgun-plasguns, lasgun-flamers and most important lasguns for characters
[-]add flame and inferno pistols
[-]have grenadiers be effected by regimental doctrines
[-]heavy weapon platoon become core while leman russ, demo, hellhound and bassi go 'armour doctrine' which also includes techpriests enginseers
[-]Add Special Weapons Teams to core
[-]make priests core troups. Every guard regiment has fanatic zealots

Haku:
[-]Add the High Command
[-]Raise the Psyker to 40 points and give him a force weapon, bs3/ws3 and psychic overwatch additional to other psychic powers
[-]Command Platoon Command Squad must take at least a senior officer as was in the old codex - no lieutnand powergaming...
[-]Allow Vox casters to work for squads in chimeras, valkyries, arvuses or whatever
[-]Allow Officers to yell commands out of chimeras
[-]Allow Veterans to bear special weapons and vox casters
[-]Allow Advisors to team up with everything once all officers got theirs... give the advisor a horse, pair of boondockers( deepstrike ) or cameoline coat ( infiltrate ) in case he teams with a squad that also has that skill ( especially allow him to team up with stormtroopers and roughriders )

Elite:
[-]Allow Power Fists for Stormtrooper Seargents
[-]Give Hardened Vets minesweepers... they lived the days of windows for workgroups :D
[-]Ogryns don't need to be T5, just give everyone dat big red bling thing ( immune to instakill ) and choppas and they'd be fine.

Core:
[-]Reduce Guardsmen Squads to 50 points, remnents 5 points per model
[-]Increase Plasgun pointcost to 15
[-]Grenade Launcher, Melter, and Flamer for 5, 10 and 3 points respective
[-]Allow Sniper Rifle to regular infantry
[-]Allow +1 special weapons if no heavy weapon was taken ( also for hardened vets )
[-]Add chimera twinlinked heavy bolter and autocannon turret
[-]Increase Chimera's side armour to 12... it's the same chasis as the hellhound anyway

Fast:
[-]give targetters ( +1 to hit ) to sentinels for free
[-]add elysia pattern ( multimelta ) sentinel variant
[-]make the hellhound work like it did in 2nd ed... or alternatively make it work like a flamer immolator ( drive 12" and still fire that is )

Support:
[-] preliminary barrage - if the kult of speed can do that IG can do that even better ( due to communication systems )
[-] Get our tanks back
[-] Allow Heavy Weapon Platoons to take special weapon teams ( ratling sniper team replacements for nonabhumen )

Special Characters:
[-] Get Solar Macharius back

rintinglen
18-05-2007, 02:48
I really don’t see guard as underpowered at all. Every codex must be approached with a paradigm of thought, while you are free to break that paradigm (and it’s awesome and very fun to do so successfully) you will typically be most successful by adhering to it.

The paradigm of the Imperial Guard Codex is simple in my opinion. You must be willing to accept that you will be pulling gobs and gobs of guys off the table every turn. You must not just accept it, you must LOVE the idea of pulling 20+ guard off the table in one turn and watching the frustrated look on your opponents face as he sees the 90+ guard you still have left! Accept the durability of pure numbers and visit the punishment you received back on your opponent with the full weight of your force. Mobility is not your strength. High-quality individual units is not your strength. Close combat is not your strength. Numbers and firepower is all you really have.

Point for point a guardsman is about one third as expensive as a space marine so you should have roughly three times as many guard as a typical space marine player. Ideally you should have more! You can not approach the construction of an Imperial Guard army with a Space Marine, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orc, Necron, or Chaos paradigm.

I had an Imperial Guard army with over 120 guardman (this included 30 rough riders). I faced armies that SIMPLY DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH SHOTS (if it hit AND wounded with every shot) to destroy my army in 6 turns.


Get real. How many guardsmen does it take to statistically kill a terminator?
Well let's just see. 1/2 will miss, 1/3 of the hits will wound, and 5/6's of those won't stick. 40 guardsmen shoot, 20 hit, 6 wound, 1 dies--gotta love that lasgun. 120 guys shoot, 3 enemy fall. 22 Termies shoot, 30 odd guardsmen die. 90 guys shoot, 3 enemy fall (the dice were hot), 19 termies shoot back, 20 odd guys die, 70 guys shoot, 2 termies die. 17 terminators shoot, 18 guys die. 50 guys shoot. 1 Termie dies. 16 termies charge, 20 odd guys die, the rest run.
I haven't seen a tournament won by a Guard Player--certainly not since the new Tau and Eldar Codices came out. There may be some guys out there who have done well but that is not the average. Guard suffer from overpriced heavy weapons and a lack of mobility. As has been said, 4th edition has weakened ordinance, and made tanks less effective...Guard is all about tanks and ordinance. 4th edition rewards skimmers and straight shooters.

Captain Micha
18-05-2007, 14:32
I think the biggest thing that's been turning me off about the guard is how crappy they really are compared to modern military..

where are the satelites postitions of you and your enemy (there really shouldn't be any scatter dice for ordance either but thats another topic all together... guided shells exist in real life... they would definatly have that refined in the 41st millennium but oh wait I forgot they don't even know how a can opener works.... , the air strikes, gunship support. (these should be standard rules) faster vehicles... the list goes on and on

the chimera is > the rhino.. water as clear terrain. multilaser instead of the crappy... whatever it is the rhino has. (I dare say its not a weapon compared to what the rest of the vehicles get) the hull mounted lasguns, pintle stubber,.. all so much better than a stupid rhino.

Gen.Steiner
18-05-2007, 14:53
I think the biggest thing that's been turning me off about the guard is how crappy they really are compared to modern military..

That's... kind of the point. :p

Corrupt
18-05-2007, 15:51
Valkyries are AV11. Furthermore GW won't allow it because the 6 man lasplas crap would be effectively useless ( plasgun would fry itself more often than down a valkyrie due to valkyrie ignoring immobilzed with flares ) and assault cannons arent good because of being rending...
but by far more important: they are flyers.

My wishlist:

Wargear & Doctrines:
[-]down the points of the power fist ( currently are less effective yet more expensive than marines ones )
[-]free warriors weapons
[-]drop troops cost to +10P/Squad
[-]add auxillary grenade launchers, lasgun-meltas, lasgun-plasguns, lasgun-flamers and most important lasguns for characters
[-]add flame and inferno pistols
[-]have grenadiers be effected by regimental doctrines
[-]heavy weapon platoon become core while leman russ, demo, hellhound and bassi go 'armour doctrine' which also includes techpriests enginseers
[-]Add Special Weapons Teams to core
[-]make priests core troups. Every guard regiment has fanatic zealots

Haku:
[-]Add the High Command
[-]Raise the Psyker to 40 points and give him a force weapon, bs3/ws3 and psychic overwatch additional to other psychic powers
[-]Command Platoon Command Squad must take at least a senior officer as was in the old codex - no lieutnand powergaming...
[-]Allow Vox casters to work for squads in chimeras, valkyries, arvuses or whatever
[-]Allow Officers to yell commands out of chimeras
[-]Allow Veterans to bear special weapons and vox casters
[-]Allow Advisors to team up with everything once all officers got theirs... give the advisor a horse, pair of boondockers( deepstrike ) or cameoline coat ( infiltrate ) in case he teams with a squad that also has that skill ( especially allow him to team up with stormtroopers and roughriders )

Elite:
[-]Allow Power Fists for Stormtrooper Seargents
[-]Give Hardened Vets minesweepers... they lived the days of windows for workgroups :D
[-]Ogryns don't need to be T5, just give everyone dat big red bling thing ( immune to instakill ) and choppas and they'd be fine.

Core:
[-]Reduce Guardsmen Squads to 50 points, remnents 5 points per model
[-]Increase Plasgun pointcost to 15
[-]Grenade Launcher, Melter, and Flamer for 5, 10 and 3 points respective
[-]Allow Sniper Rifle to regular infantry
[-]Allow +1 special weapons if no heavy weapon was taken ( also for hardened vets )
[-]Add chimera twinlinked heavy bolter and autocannon turret
[-]Increase Chimera's side armour to 12... it's the same chasis as the hellhound anyway

Fast:
[-]give targetters ( +1 to hit ) to sentinels for free
[-]add elysia pattern ( multimelta ) sentinel variant
[-]make the hellhound work like it did in 2nd ed... or alternatively make it work like a flamer immolator ( drive 12" and still fire that is )

Support:
[-] preliminary barrage - if the kult of speed can do that IG can do that even better ( due to communication systems )
[-] Get our tanks back
[-] Allow Heavy Weapon Platoons to take special weapon teams ( ratling sniper team replacements for nonabhumen )

Special Characters:
[-] Get Solar Macharius back

All seconded Bar Armour 12 Side Chimera
Make it 11-Bolter proof but still combat patrol legal.

Mr Zephy
18-05-2007, 16:08
Also there's a big difference between adding armour on the hellhound from 11 to 12 than from 10 to 12.

superknijn
18-05-2007, 17:37
My wishlist:

Wargear & Doctrines:
[-]down the points of the power fist ( currently are less effective yet more expensive than marines ones )
[-]free warriors weapons
[-]drop troops cost to +10P/Squad
[-]add auxillary grenade launchers, lasgun-meltas, lasgun-plasguns, lasgun-flamers and most important lasguns for characters
[-]add flame and inferno pistols
[-]have grenadiers be effected by regimental doctrines
[-]heavy weapon platoon become core while leman russ, demo, hellhound and bassi go 'armour doctrine' which also includes techpriests enginseers
[-]Add Special Weapons Teams to core
[-]make priests core troups. Every guard regiment has fanatic zealots

I don't really like the grenadiers with doctrines or the tanks requiring a doctrine, but you have a point there. I agree with the rest, though.


Haku:

Nice.


[-]Raise the Psyker to 40 points and give him a force weapon, bs3/ws3 and psychic overwatch additional to other psychic powers

Don't really like this bit; IG psykers are not very strong, and are continiously struggling with their inner daemons, literally.


[-]Command Platoon Command Squad must take at least a senior officer as was in the old codex - no lieutnand powergaming...

Totally agree, the whole lieutenant with honorifica things is highly annoying. I do think that there will be some changes to the whole platoon system in the next revision, though.


[-]Allow Vox casters to work for squads in chimeras, valkyries, arvuses or whatever

Why? they don't need leadership? it does need to work the other way 'round, though.


[-]Allow Officers to yell commands out of chimeras
[-]Allow Veterans to bear special weapons and vox casters
[-]Allow Advisors to team up with everything once all officers got theirs... give the advisor a horse, pair of boondockers( deepstrike ) or cameoline coat ( infiltrate ) in case he teams with a squad that also has that skill ( especially allow him to team up with stormtroopers and roughriders )

The first maybe ass a small upgrade; an officer wants to be protected, not stick his head out of something that's going to be bombarded with heavy AT weaponry. I agree on the other points though, and would add in a price degree, as they're overpriced right know.


[-]Allow Power Fists for Stormtrooper Seargents
[-]Give Hardened Vets minesweepers... they lived the days of windows for workgroups :D
[-]Ogryns don't need to be T5, just give everyone dat big red bling thing ( immune to instakill ) and choppas and they'd be fine.

Agreed


[-]Reduce Guardsmen Squads to 50 points, remnents 5 points per model
[-]Increase Plasgun pointcost to 15
[-]Grenade Launcher, Melter, and Flamer for 5, 10 and 3 points respective
[-]Allow Sniper Rifle to regular infantry
[-]Allow +1 special weapons if no heavy weapon was taken ( also for hardened vets )
[-]Add chimera twinlinked heavy bolter and autocannon turret
[-]Increase Chimera's side armour to 12... it's the same chasis as the hellhound anyway
Don't really like these except for the first one; it alters basic guardsman a bit too much, and makes the Chimera too armoured. AV11 on the side would be good.


[-]give targetters ( +1 to hit ) to sentinels for free
[-]add elysia pattern ( multimelta ) sentinel variant
[-]make the hellhound work like it did in 2nd ed... or alternatively make it work like a flamer immolator ( drive 12" and still fire that is )
Targeters don't give +1 to hit ;) I'd like them to have BS4, but it wouldn't fit in; only highly-trained persons have BS4.


[-]preliminary barrage - if the kult of speed can do that IG can do that even better ( due to communication systems)
[-] Get our tanks back
[-] Allow Heavy Weapon Platoons to take special weapon teams ( ratling sniper team replacements for nonabhumen)

That's why there are Improved Comms ;) I would like more tanks. More tanks is always better. Also agree with the snipers. Perhaps Ratlings as an upgrade/doctrine?


[-]Get Solar Macharius back
I don't like him, he's a bit old and silly.

Also, make the Armoured Company codex-official!

Altasmurf
18-05-2007, 19:21
The guard are a good codex, pretty balanced but they do suffer when it comes down to truly competitive enviornments. I've struggled to ever get massacre results that are required to win tournaments. So the guard can win, but they sure can't win big. I'd have to say the biggest problem is the lack of mobility as many others have said. In 4th mobility is king. As for people talking about the gunline, I'm afraid the gunline died with 3rd. If you're winning with a gunline, I'm sorry but you are either not in a competitive area, or there is no terrain on the board.

Really the only armies I suffer against are speed freaks, las/plas/medic sergeant marines, drop pod/Libby fear power, or any marine army with 2 libbys with Fota. But in my opinion an army should be able to deal with any army to be competive, not most armies. But hey that's just my opinion.

Getz
18-05-2007, 19:31
To be honest all I'd like to see is for the basic Guardsman go down to 5 points and the Griffon, Vanquisher, Exterminator and Slamander to (re)appear in the codex, then I'd take stock.

Oh yeah, and give me my combi-weapons back. I used to love combi-flamers for Sarges...

...and let the Vox guy in a command squad be a veteran - it bugs me when that he's lumbered with basic equipment when the rest of my Command squad can take wargear.

Most of the other problems are not so much beause our stuff is bad, but because stuff is under costed in other codices.

Look at the Ogryn, for example. Ogryns are rubbish because they die like flies to Powerfists. However, is the problem the Ogryns stats, or is it that most Marine armies can get a Powerfist for all their Veteran Sarges and pay less points for it than we do for ours..?

In fact, I'd say that the biggest problem in 40K in general is that the basic Space Marine is about 2-3 point too cheap and gets all his equipment for a song. If they won't make the Marines more expensive, they could at least make the rest of us a bit cheaper...

Marshal Augustine
18-05-2007, 21:23
a pet peeve I have is that the priest comes with a cc wpn, and there is no laspistol option... i want him to have a PW and be able to shoot. I also second the 50 pts per squad. What about veterans? maby make them even less costly, and give them frags :D

Hooter Hunter
18-05-2007, 21:50
Look at the Ogryn, for example. Ogryns are rubbish because they die like flies to Powerfists. However, is the problem the Ogryns stats, or is it that most Marine armies can get a Powerfist for all their Veteran Sarges and pay less points for it than we do for ours..?

In fact, I'd say that the biggest problem in 40K in general is that the basic Space Marine is about 2-3 point too cheap and gets all his equipment for a song. If they won't make the Marines more expensive, they could at least make the rest of us a bit cheaper...


Oh so true. As I have said GW favors the SM lobby and caters to them. Their Vet Sgts as you have said can have a power fist and go around smashin stuff all day. They even have eltes that have all powerfists or chainfists (Termies).

Ogryns are Elites but only get a +1 bonus for their Ogryn weapon in HTH making them S-6, with a normal save. This is broken, look at the size of them I think that if a SM were to get hit by that it would take his head off. Also a Bone 'ead is allowed wargear from the armory, but not a power fist. I guess that would be to cool for the IG to have a HTH model with S-10 like nearly every other army out there.:rolleyes:

But then again we are the IG we are used to havin to Improvise , Overcome and Adapt! I dont see that changing anytime soon. And if it does remember be carefull what you ask for. GW is likely to take our docs away if they do anything, and thats one of the best things the IG has goin for it.

legio mortis
18-05-2007, 22:55
I think the biggest thing that's been turning me off about the guard is how crappy they really are compared to modern military..

where are the satelites postitions of you and your enemy (there really shouldn't be any scatter dice for ordance either but thats another topic all together... guided shells exist in real life... they would definatly have that refined in the 41st millennium but oh wait I forgot they don't even know how a can opener works.... , the air strikes, gunship support. (these should be standard rules) faster vehicles... the list goes on and on

I'd say that the Guard would best our military by a bit. Better trained soldiers(generally), harder tanks, bigger guns and orbital support? Yes please. No scatter dice for ordnance? How can you tell me that an Earthshaker or Griffon can hit the exact same spot every time? In all realilty, I beleive that the Battlecannon has to scatter becuase of game balance. Fluffwise, it can be moving as fast as it can and still shoot straight.

For me, the major problem is that GW took away our tanks, for no real reason.

Gen.Steiner
18-05-2007, 22:59
I'd say that the Guard would best our military by a bit.

Ahaha. AHAHAHA. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!

No, not really. :p

legio mortis
18-05-2007, 23:10
Ahaha. AHAHAHA. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!

No, not really. :p
Well, that's what I truly beleive. I really don't see any of our stuff that they couldn't beat.

Gen.Steiner
18-05-2007, 23:11
Well, that's what I truly beleive. I really don't see any of our stuff that they couldn't beat.

Tell you what, make a new thread so as not to derail this one any further, and I'll discuss it with you. :)

Vaktathi
18-05-2007, 23:14
I'd say that the Guard would best our military by a bit. Better trained soldiers(generally), harder tanks, bigger guns and orbital support? Yes please. No scatter dice for ordnance? How can you tell me that an Earthshaker or Griffon can hit the exact same spot every time? In all realilty, I beleive that the Battlecannon has to scatter becuase of game balance. Fluffwise, it can be moving as fast as it can and still shoot straight.

For me, the major problem is that GW took away our tanks, for no real reason.

a Leman Russ is designed like a very ealy WW2 tank with several WW1 elements. It's a horrible tank design from real world PoV, its too tall, very little sloping armor, badly designed turret, short stubby barrel, poor track design etc. As for harder armor, I doubt a Russ could match the armor on a Leopard 2 or an Abrams (or equivalent). Modern tank cannons can hit targets miles away on the move almost dead on and also, modern artillery can hit targets much more accurately at longer ranges than an Earthshaker can . Furthermore, the Guard isnt exactly known for its elite-trained troops, it is however known for human wave attacks, conscripts, and tithe troops. Stormtroopers would be about a modern day equivalent soldier.

It's a fantasy game, part of the allure is the fact that there are relativley low tech things on a vast scale in a futuristic setting. (40k is more of a Fantasy world with guns than it is classic SciFi)

xibo
18-05-2007, 23:27
a Leman Russ is designed like a very ealy WW2 tank with several WW1 elements. It's a horrible tank design from real world PoV, its too tall, very little sloping armor, badly designed turret, short stubby barrel, poor track design etc. As for harder armor, I doubt a Russ could match the armor on a Leopard 2 or an Abrams (or equivalent). Modern tank cannons can hit targets miles away on the move almost dead on and also, modern artillery can hit targets much more accurately at longer ranges than an Earthshaker can . Furthermore, the Guard isnt exactly known for its elite-trained troops, it is however known for human wave attacks, conscripts, and tithe troops. Stormtroopers would be about a modern day equivalent soldier.

It's a fantasy game, part of the allure is the fact that there are relativley low tech things on a vast scale in a futuristic setting. (40k is more of a Fantasy world with guns than it is classic SciFi)

I don't think a leman russ could match even with a T72, and the IG doesn't have a single missile based air defence... flak cannons just can't hit planes flying 30k+ feet high ( and shooting guided missiles on you ).

Valkyries somehow remember me on some chopper but I can't remember its name/code... however I guess Valkyries and Vultures would work more or less like choppers.

marauders are fodder to next to every millitaries air defences.

guardsmen are militians :D

stormtroopers are by far too bulky armoured with their caraplast foo that isn't going to protect them from a bullet anyway

sentinels are just cool

and officers running with swords and wearing great red coats so everyone can identify them on the spot ( trademark item ) are just inviting snipers to shoot them ( todays snipers might hit less but will surely wound better and ignore your armour ;) )

back ontoppic...
we need commissars crying out propaganda about the righteousness of the emperor so that the enemy looses its will to fight HIS servants ... no wait thats the witchhunters word of the emperor power we get via allies rules :D

Gen.Steiner
18-05-2007, 23:32
...the IG doesn't have a single missile based air defence

Yes they do. The Manticore.

xibo
18-05-2007, 23:35
Yes they do. The Manticore.

ok, sorry. didn't know that... I thought it would be armed with just Ground-Ground-Missiles...

Gen.Steiner
18-05-2007, 23:37
Nah, the Manticore can also be given SAMs, but it's not really a mistake that's worthy of a sorry... :p

Bunnahabhain
19-05-2007, 09:48
How about artillery spotters? Cheap advisor, who can call down indirect fire. If the target is in the spotters LOS either treat it as direct fire, or ability to re-roll scatter dice.

Buying BS 4 for your tanks, for about 15-20 pts. Maybe only one per FOC, to represent their relatively rare veteran status

Dribble Joy
19-05-2007, 11:00
I have had some horrible experiences with drop guard.

You waste two turns moving and doing nothing, then 40+ plasma/melta guns (plus the hordes of lasguns) suddenly appear behind, in front and all around your units. Your vehicles are popped, your units are whittled away and if you come out of cover you're shafted.

A 20 strong 'ard boy mob in hard cover had 3 units of them drop within assault range, by the time they could do so, they were at 4 models. They took one 66 point unit under half strength before being swamped.

Each command squad had 3 plasma guns, a medic (with plasma pistol) and a luet (with plasma pistol). Medic ensures over heats aren't too costly, though he still looses some.
Each squad had a flamer.
Three stormtrooper squads with three melta guns. All vehicles would have been dusted in turn 2 if he'd been lucky with reserve rolls. As it was they were all gone by turn 3.

Third of his casualties at the end of the game were due to deep strike cock-ups. Most I caused was the mega-armoured nobs getting lucky with cover saves and charging.
1500 game, he killed about 1045 (just the nobs left really) I killed about 300 tops (100 of which was due to DS issues).

Oh and demo charges too. Quite a few.

Corrupt
19-05-2007, 13:05
Oh and demo charges too. Quite a few.

Nothing better than a Marine's face when you Demo Charge his termis :D

kerveros2002
20-05-2007, 10:09
Excuse my incompetence, but I allways lose with IG.

Now, this is mainly due to lack of rules knowledge -as I am a modeller (not painter, I hate painting) more than an gamer- and VERY VERY bad dice rolling. However, irrespectively of your shooting, the enemy shoots back as well (duh) and when he reaches your gun-line, guards just drop like flies.

Personally I play guard just because I like my highly-converted models and to play-test new elements just in case my bad luck changes (never does)

I do belive though that proper IG (not some rediculisly mini-maxed armies) has a serious lack of effective fire power. Hole squads and platoons, count only for their heavy/special weapons and everybody else is a body-bag with a flashlight

I do have a request though for all those marvellous strategists that mentioned above that they have crushed everything in their way, would you please give us a -breef- list of what would you take 2000 ps, tournament rules.

Colonel Jacka
20-05-2007, 11:40
Hmmm, I agree with Getz, Hoots and of course Steiner. :D And the Manticore, I love the Manticore. Great piece of kit. Look we are never going to be as good as the SM, but I do wish the Ogryn's were a little better as suggested by Getz and Hoots. Hmmm, :eyebrows: Bill with a power fist. Now that would be something to see. :eek: Mind you I play Ogryn's because they look good. :D

Corrupt
20-05-2007, 12:25
I do belive though that proper IG (not some rediculisly mini-maxed armies) has a serious lack of effective fire power. Whole squads and platoons, count only for their heavy/special weapons and everybody else is a body-bag with a flashlight

Actually vs Tau/Eldar/other GEQ's where we wound on 4's Lasguns chalk up a respectable kill count.
But yeah vs marines its down to your heavies and specials.
The way to play it is...forget the lasgun troopers. If they kill something its all well and good, really though they are just ablative wounds for the heavy pieces.

Gen.Steiner
20-05-2007, 14:12
The way to play it is...forget the lasgun troopers. If they kill something its all well and good, really though they are just ablative wounds for the heavy pieces.

No. This is wrong and silly. The sheer amount of lasrounds that a Guard army can pump downrange often causes significant casualties. You just have to think like Stalin - "quantity is a quality all of its own", after all :p

Corrupt
20-05-2007, 14:15
No. This is wrong and silly. The sheer amount of lasrounds that a Guard army can pump downrange often causes significant casualties. You just have to think like Stalin - "quantity is a quality all of its own", after all :p

This is true.
But I prefer to work on the principle that well they may get some kills, but their job is to protect the gunners.
That was Im always pleasently surprised, instead iof counting on lasguns to kill enough marines for another plan to work which could let me down

Hooter Hunter
20-05-2007, 14:37
No. This is wrong and silly. The sheer amount of lasrounds that a Guard army can pump downrange often causes significant casualties. You just have to think like Stalin - "quantity is a quality all of its own", after all :p

Thats why I love the Sharpshooter doctrine. Igt gives you more hits and more chances to wound. As mentoned before lasguns enmasse are the death of Termies, Greater Daemons, and Avatars.:D Oh and it was Lenin that said that.

Gen.Steiner
20-05-2007, 14:50
I'm sure it was Stalin... oh well, nevermind, it was a Soviet dictator either way. :p

superknijn
20-05-2007, 15:40
It's Stalin allright; and it's 'quality has a quality all its own', which has a slightly different meaning.

Veterans are currently rather bland; they do have Infiltrate to show their battlefield experience, but I miss the Band of Brothers (both the book and the series) feel that the entry should have. They miss the rather ragtag and improvised, yet profressional feel they should have.

Hooter Hunter
20-05-2007, 16:17
Gen Steiner- I stand corrected it was indeed Stalin.

As to the Vets I like them pretty well as they are one of the few units in 40K that can carry 3 assault weapons. Pair them with special eapons squads and you can have quite a few "plasma/melta suicide" squads that will bring grief to yer enemy, and to yourself when they over heat. But thats the risk of it. And if yer really lucky you can get at least one, maybe two melta squads in close to enemy armor and really wreak havoc.

Lord Cook
20-05-2007, 16:18
Having just read through this entire thread from the start...

The biggest problem with the Imperial Guard is that in order to be competitive they have to follow very specific builds, such as the drop troop army of special weapon death, or so forth. This armies typically involve the same units over and over again (like veterans) and lots of players like to have a unique army, hence they build armies that are less competitive.

What we need most is a slight re-balance in our units.

Priests and commissars are ridiculously overcosted for what they do, especially considering the rigid and inflexible way in which you assign them to squads. Make them cheaper.

Make the enginseer actually good at fixing vehicles, rather than giving you a heavy bolter squad with BS4. If he could move up to a tank and then fix damage in the same turn that would help a lot.

Ogryns suffer from a lack of options. In one-on-one CC, an ogryn is better than an assault marine by a fair way, but the marines have a sergeant with access to armour-negating wargear. Ogryn bone'eads need some form of power weapon, or if not then just make the whole squad cheaper.

Veterans are too powerful in respect to storm troopers. Either make storm troopers cheaper, giving them more armour than vets in exchange for less weapon options, or just increase the weapon options of storm troopers.

For heavens sake somebody at GW recognise that tracked vehicles are horribly overcosted in relation to skimmers, and need to get some form of boost, or just a price drop.

Many more changes, but generally just make the unpopular choices viable (like priests and ogryns) and bring our price costs in line with SM. Paying 20 points for a power fist is just too much for a basic human.

Aesc
20-05-2007, 20:22
I've been tempted to use IG but I keep hearing how badly they suck. I kind of like underdogs though, so who knows what I'll end up doing.

Gen.Steiner
20-05-2007, 21:49
I've been tempted to use IG but I keep hearing how badly they suck.

The Guard is many things. One thing it is not, is the suck.

The Guard is glorious. It is a hard army to master, but once you do, the Guard will coat you in medals, honour, and victory laurels.

Just watch out for the Commissars and remember that retreats are punishable by death, while 'limited tactical withdrawals to improve our overall strategic situation' are perfectly OK. :)

Lord Cook
20-05-2007, 22:29
Just watch out for the Commissars and remember that retreats are punishable by death, while 'limited tactical withdrawals to improve our overall strategic situation' are perfectly OK. :)

Retreat? RETREAT!!? HERESY! The Imperial Guard never retreats! On occasion it will be called upon to advance in a different direction, sometimes at 180 degrees to the previous line of advance, but in those situations especially they are all the more eager to advance as quickly as humanly possible. Indeed, in such situations my Imperial Guardsmen can often be seen running to future victory!

For the Emperor!

Gen.Steiner
20-05-2007, 22:32
Precisely! Well said, Lord Cook! With such stalwarts in the line, the Guard can never lose!

Colonel Jacka
20-05-2007, 23:06
Vets they are one of the few units in 40K that can carry 3 assault weapons. Pair them with special weapons squads and you can have quite a few "plasma/melta suicide" squads that will bring grief to yer enemy, and to yourself when they over heat. But thats the risk of it. And if yer really lucky you can get at least one, maybe two melta squads in close to enemy armor and really wreak havoc.


I'm quite fond of this tactic. I usually match my Command HQ with a Vet/Kasrkin Squad, 6+ Ogryn Squad and a Special Weapons Squad with 3 x Flamer's/Melta's. Mounted in Chimera's of course (depending of game pts). Great for city fight as well. This combo results in 8-10 Flamer's/Melta's in a very effective assault group. Backed by four Chimera's with Multi Lasers for support.

twisted_mentat
20-05-2007, 23:52
Retreat? RETREAT!!? HERESY! The Imperial Guard never retreats! On occasion it will be called upon to advance in a different direction, sometimes at 180 degrees to the previous line of advance, but in those situations especially they are all the more eager to advance as quickly as humanly possible. Indeed, in such situations my Imperial Guardsmen can often be seen running to future victory!

For the Emperor!

In the Krieg officer training manuals, its refered to as "Tactical turn around".

"There is no redemption in a pointless death. Redemption is only gained through a death that leads to victory for the Emperor." - Krieg Jr officer training manual, chapter 13 "Giving your men a proper death".

Gen.Steiner
20-05-2007, 23:57
In the Krieg officer training manuals, its refered to as "Tactical turn around".

Surely you mean "tactical alteration of the line of advance"? ;)

Lord Cook
21-05-2007, 02:20
In the Krieg officer training manuals...

Where did you get that? IA5 isn't out yet and I can't think where else you might find background on Krieg. I was thinking of getting IA5 (pre-orders dispatched this week!) but I don't really have the money. I would be prepared to sacrifice the priveledge of eating for a while if necessary... Maybe if the Macharius is available to convential armoured company I'll make the investment.

As nice as the plastic baneblade will no doubt be, it just isn't giving me the same 'vibe' that I'm getting from the Macharius.

Corrupt
21-05-2007, 12:49
But also remember "When in doubt advance"-IIUP

Hicks
21-05-2007, 16:49
Having just read through this entire thread from the start...

The biggest problem with the Imperial Guard is that in order to be competitive they have to follow very specific builds, such as the drop troop army of special weapon death, or so forth. This armies typically involve the same units over and over again (like veterans) and lots of players like to have a unique army, hence they build armies that are less competitive.

What we need most is a slight re-balance in our units.

Priests and commissars are ridiculously overcosted for what they do, especially considering the rigid and inflexible way in which you assign them to squads. Make them cheaper.

Make the enginseer actually good at fixing vehicles, rather than giving you a heavy bolter squad with BS4. If he could move up to a tank and then fix damage in the same turn that would help a lot.

Ogryns suffer from a lack of options. In one-on-one CC, an ogryn is better than an assault marine by a fair way, but the marines have a sergeant with access to armour-negating wargear. Ogryn bone'eads need some form of power weapon, or if not then just make the whole squad cheaper.

Veterans are too powerful in respect to storm troopers. Either make storm troopers cheaper, giving them more armour than vets in exchange for less weapon options, or just increase the weapon options of storm troopers.

For heavens sake somebody at GW recognise that tracked vehicles are horribly overcosted in relation to skimmers, and need to get some form of boost, or just a price drop.

Many more changes, but generally just make the unpopular choices viable (like priests and ogryns) and bring our price costs in line with SM. Paying 20 points for a power fist is just too much for a basic human.

I agree on all of these points, basically, we pay more than any other army for worse stuff (especially the troops). But yet, us IG players can manage to win. Everytime someone points a flaw in the codex, someone is bound to reply that everything is fine etc... I'm really wondering what will happen if GW fixes everything. Sure, a lot of units are suddenly going to be fielded a lot more, but I don't we like to have an underpowered codex?

I can easily imagine that all those vets who have played IG for all those years, won't need to try too hard to win if they can field even more troops for the same point cost as before and all.

Morris
21-05-2007, 16:57
Major problems:

You can't kill anything with lasguns.
Once anyone gets to you, you're dead.
Once anything destroys your tanks and thus can get to you, you are dead

Gen.Steiner
21-05-2007, 17:11
You can't kill anything with lasguns.

Wrong...


Once anyone gets to you, you're dead.

Which is why you kill them before they get to yoU! :D


Once anything destroys your tanks and thus can get to you, you are dead

Pah. I spit on tanks. Give me heavy weapons platoons any day. :p

Machiavelli
21-05-2007, 17:11
Sorry to say that, but IG looks like the russian army, like, the soldiars are rather ridiculous than frightening, the walkers are like LEGO toys, and it hasn't got a good feeling. They are like normal soldiars, and..........come on..........it is the 40th millenia, who wants to play the russian army?

Maybe, they need a change every model, find sth better than lasgun and better walkers 'coz I think IG just don't suit into warhammer 40k.......

This not means that you can't like IG or maybe you have some great fun with IG, it is just my opinion of view. ( I never-ever wanna play a Nurgle army too, it is so discusting, rether than hororistic....)

colonel P.
21-05-2007, 17:15
hi guys,

i dont know if this will help, but when ever ive built my guard armies i also go for a multi task force, for example i would take an all infantry force but max out on special weapons in command squads and all options for the standard infantry squads. this way the basic infantry squad would have a heavy weapon and a special weapon to deal with any unusal threats that the massed lasguns of the guard couldn't deal with. (which is sometimes almost everything on the board). also i created armies that i looked the look of over their actually performence on the battlefield, like my steel legion- looked cool, never won a game with them though. and on top of that i just love guard, the variation amongst it is greater than any other army other than maybe tyranids and orks. in all my 8 years of gaming and modelling 40k i have never collected another army other than guard.

p.s. what does 'imao' mean i have been seeing alot of this and i am still clueless

Gen.Steiner
21-05-2007, 17:24
Colonel P, I recommend you visit the Who Loves Guard (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45698) and Tactica: Guard (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101) threads. :) Welcome to Warseer!


p.s. what does 'imao' mean i have been seeing alot of this and i am still clueless

LMAO is Laughing My **** Off, IMO is In My Opinion, IMHO is In My Honest/Humble Opinion.

I'm not sure what IMAO is though.

colonel P.
21-05-2007, 17:29
one other idea,

one problem most people see with guard is mobility it would seem. in a situation where you have to grab objectives you should- take as many ordanance weapons as possible (mortors, bassies) and as many lascannons as possible, in addition to a couple of platoons of infantry and a couple of chimeras equipped with heavy bolters. the plan- the ordanance weapons pin down large enemy formations at long range and the lascannons can pick off specific targets (carnifexs,tanks,walkers generally the enemy's heavy support) the armoured fist squads can mve forward toward the objective at full speed spraying out death from their turrets and hulls ( the reason i chose heavy bolters is for sheer volume of fire, as many shots as is possible on the move, in 40k even the strongest models dies if you shot it enough). mean while the armoured fist squads qould get cover from ordanance and lascannons and anyhing that survives to get close enough to your heavy weapons can be dealt with by massed lasguns. thanks for reading...

colonel P.
21-05-2007, 17:32
sorry guys im hogging up thread space. thanks very much for clarifying gen.steiner, i ment lmao not imao. i am relatively new to this. love the 2nd battalion thread. cheers once again.

Gen.Steiner
21-05-2007, 17:36
We were all new once, Colonel. :) Glad to be of assistance, and I'm glad you like the 2nd Battalion! :D Updates soon I hope.

Oh - regarding your answer to the lack of mobility - it's a good 'un. You, Malchek and Getz will have a lot to talk about in Tactica: Guard I think.

Lord Cook
21-05-2007, 18:16
You can't kill anything with lasguns.

Either you've never even seen lasguns on the tabletop or you were watching/using some form of tank heavy army that had very few troops. By very few troops I mean less than 50.


Once anyone gets to you, you're dead.

You've don't appear to have ever seen conscripts or rough riders either.


Once anything destroys your tanks and thus can get to you, you are dead

Then how is it that all-infantry armies can do so well?

Basically, all 3 of these statements are stupid, sweeping generalisations or stereotypes that basically amount to a huge pile of absolute rubbish.

Colonel Jacka
21-05-2007, 19:45
Steiner,

Are we starting to go in circles here mate? :eyebrows: :D Haven't we been down this road many times before.I mean you either like IG or you don't. And of course by Pius we do! :D

Gen.Steiner
21-05-2007, 19:49
Jacka, you have a point. The Guard has no weaknesses that cannot be overcome with love and honour! :D

xibo
21-05-2007, 19:50
conscripts are there to look cool, like most other things in the IG. They aren't a powerfull counterassault unit, as they are too slow for that purpose, and too bad in CC, too. RR on the other side are just awesome, at least at the turn they charge in...

jfrazell
21-05-2007, 19:51
I don't its an issue of liking the Guard or not. The thread is discussing some of the problems in the current list. There are thingsx that can be improved on, and things that are actually potentially overpowered, to make the Guard both a viable Tier One list and fun to play.

Colonel Jacka
21-05-2007, 20:06
Guard is loads of fun to play! :D There is always things that can be improved. But sometimes you just have to suck it up and play the Guards :eyebrows: whoops I mean cards your dealt. So Troopers harden up and lets go crack some skulls! By Pius! :D

Hooter Hunter
21-05-2007, 20:27
Guard is loads of fun to play! :D There is always thing that can be improved. But sometimes you just have to suck it up and play the Guards :eyebrows: whoops I mean cards your dealt. So Troopers harden up and lets go crack some skulls! By Pius! :

To right there.

All we need to remember that the current IG codex was released shortly after the EoT campaign. When i came out there were moans a plenty from both SM and CSM about how much more powerfull the IG were at the time. Now we are on the downward swing of that pendulum and will get our turn soon enough.


Jacka, you have a point. The Guard has no weaknesses that cannot be overcome with love and honour!

Steiner has the right of it here. Yes the IG has weakness, but we aint some genetic freaks, or xenos scum. The IG are the regular Joes who do jump in the face of death and laugh. So they may decide that discretion is the better part of valor at times. thatst he roll of the dice, as I know all to well:rolleyes: .

As to the point of us having over ppriced weapons. Think of it like this, if we could have them at the price of SM then we would be called even cheesier than SW. And on top of that if our Vet Sgts had access to power weapons no one would play the IG anymore because then they would be over the top.

It may seem unfair from a certain POV, but at times like this we just have to cowboy up and wait for our new Dex. Enjoy the Docs now for I fear they may vanish with the next Codex.:cries:

Gen.Steiner
21-05-2007, 20:32
Enjoy the Docs now for I fear they may vanish with the next Codex.:cries:

If they do, then I will retain my current Codex and use that for all friendly games at home and clubs.

I shall purchase one copy of the new 'dex and use that with my Rigellians for games at GW.

I will also cry myself to sleep at night. :p

jfrazell
21-05-2007, 20:52
Don't worry I think you're looking at least two years or five marine codexes out, right before they finally do the Ork codex ;)

wingedserpant
21-05-2007, 21:31
I say there isn't much wrong with the list, just that most people in their ignorance tur their noses up at units like rough riders and ogryns jsut because on the surface they don't look as good as say terminators or assualt marines. They give the gaurd one of their only chances to survive an assualt by almost anybody.

Ozorik
21-05-2007, 22:36
My problem with guard is more there total and utter lack of realisim. There is no way that the IG would actually fight as they are portrayed by the rules. 40K is more about abstracts than reality but it is still one of the major issues as to why I no longer play guard (or 40k for that matter). A little thought would have gone a long way to making the IG much more interesting to play than a simple turtle army with far to many heavy weapons.

Gen.Steiner
21-05-2007, 22:49
My problem with guard is more there total and utter lack of realisim. There is no way that the IG would actually fight as they are portrayed by the rules.

:eek: You've got combat experience with the Guard?

505
21-05-2007, 22:54
Then how is it that all-infantry armies can do so well?

yeah I never did to well with my guard till I went all infantry.

don't get me wrong Russes are fine and dandy but all infantry is fun

edit: lord cook Im up for the battle of kursk...I'm a little short on modles though Ill get back to you in about 60-70 years

Neighbor Kid
21-05-2007, 23:41
"Monstrous Creature. Guard ordnance is so large that they specially impact monstrous creatures. If hit roll 1-3 wounds (saveable as normal). Could be a doctrine or normal ability. "

Where does it say that?

Also for any guard player.. your need to take Ogryn.. they are the basicly only closer combat contigent the IG have. upgtradet hem with harded soldiers for a WS 5 , and give them the carapace armor for a 4 + save plus 1 on charge that 27 + SGT = 31 + if tyou buy a priest and give it the holy relic for a +1 attack to everythign in 2D6 inches on that turn youll get 32 + SGt = 37 Attacks at st 6 WS 5 With 3 wounds... its a muist for every guard army. i use it every time even though i have a huge tank company i use standard alto and the ogryns are a must for any of you they will slow the enemy downa on a charge will decimate the strongest of squads such as SM vets. termis. etc they rock everyone and are a challenge to take down. but it is costly its about 260 i forget if thats with the Harded Fighters i forget but the 260 is for the + Armor.

Winimperial
22-05-2007, 00:47
Not even done with my guard army yet but im assuming it will be loads of fun to play around with. After my first game with them, I'll think I'll post here about my expierience.

Although from the collecting expierience, It would be a good thing if GW could even out the prices for building a 1000point guard army in comparison to a 1000point marine army.;)

Outlaw289
22-05-2007, 00:57
"Monstrous Creature. Guard ordnance is so large that they specially impact monstrous creatures. If hit roll 1-3 wounds (saveable as normal). Could be a doctrine or normal ability. "

Where does it say that?

Also for any guard player.. your need to take Ogryn.. they are the basicly only closer combat contigent the IG have. upgtradet hem with harded soldiers for a WS 5 , and give them the carapace armor for a 4 + save plus 1 on charge that 27 + SGT = 31 + if tyou buy a priest and give it the holy relic for a +1 attack to everythign in 2D6 inches on that turn youll get 32 + SGt = 37 Attacks at st 6 WS 5 With 3 wounds... its a muist for every guard army. i use it every time even though i have a huge tank company i use standard alto and the ogryns are a must for any of you they will slow the enemy downa on a charge will decimate the strongest of squads such as SM vets. termis. etc they rock everyone and are a challenge to take down. but it is costly its about 260 i forget if thats with the Harded Fighters i forget but the 260 is for the + Armor.

You cannot take Hardened Fighters or Carapace Armor for Ogryns. Additionally, Rougher Riders are much more points-efficient for a counter-assault unit. Besides, that is a horribly costly unit. You could get a Leman Russ and like, two beefed up Veterans squads for that many points.

xibo
22-05-2007, 01:20
why would you want to spend 3 doctrine points on a counter measure? especially if RR can do better with just one?

image the point sink of 10 ogryns + 'obligatory' commissar + priest + relic + 3 doctrine points? you could simply have shot down those raptors if you'd spend that points for heavy weapon teams or maybe even just platoon squads...

Lord Cook
22-05-2007, 01:42
conscripts are there to look cool, like most other things in the IG. They aren't a powerfull counterassault unit, as they are too slow for that purpose, and too bad in CC, too.

Have you even seen conscripts actually being used? They have more attacks point for point than hormagaunts. As a defensive unit you don't need speed, you need durability, and conscripts have to be one of the most durable units in the entire game (unless your opponent has a fixation for flamers). While I do think conscripts are cool, I certainly wouldn't have committed to painting 40 of them if I didn't think they were genuinly worth it. I suppose it all comes down to what experiences we have had with them in the past, good or bad.


"Monstrous Creature. Guard ordnance is so large that they specially impact monstrous creatures. If hit roll 1-3 wounds (saveable as normal). Could be a doctrine or normal ability. "

Where does it say that?

It doesn't. It was something he wants, not actually a real rule.


Also for any guard player.. your need to take Ogryn.. they are the basicly only closer combat contigent the IG have.

Rough riders and conscripts would beg to differ.


upgtradet hem with harded soldiers for a WS 5 , and give them the carapace armor for a 4 + save

As Outlaw289 pointed out, that unit is totally illegal. Read the doctrine section again, particuarly the section on 'Guard Infantry'. Ogryns can't take doctrines.

Aundae
22-05-2007, 02:34
if tyou buy a priest and give it the holy relic for a +1 attack to everythign in 2D6 inches on that turn
(Shortened due to size.)

I think the priest would be cool because then I could get a unit of arco-flaggelent as allies. Stick them in close combat and see what happens. :D

Lord Cook
22-05-2007, 02:38
Take it from me, as cool as it is to see a unit of arcos eviscerate a broodlord and his entire retinue, its truly does hurt the soul to see 35 point models disintegrate themselves from overusing the ol' steroids. Not helped by your opponent having a hearty chuckle when 3 of them do it simultaneously. :(

Neighbor Kid
22-05-2007, 14:50
"As Outlaw289 pointed out, that unit is totally illegal. Read the doctrine section again, particuarly the section on 'Guard Infantry'. Ogryns can't take doctrines."

Illhave to look that up cause i keep tryign to find things about the ogryn to make sure they can take doctrines... and havnt found that it is illegal. Ill reread it when i get home. BUt if you could tellme OUtlaw what page it is on.. cause ogryn are considered Infantry, but illlook for it when i get home.

conscripts are WS 2 suck at CC unless you got like 50 then again your still got a roughly 1/3rd odds of hitting and damaging the enemy to make them armor saves. plus rough riders.. never seemed to work for me always get shot up.. they get that first round bonus of the lance with no armor save, but after that i dont think there that good. plus even thought the 260 could buy a leman and others.. the tanks cant get into CC unless you have HVY flamers to protec its self but still an enemy that attcks the front of the leman you have attack cuase the trqajectory of the fire would not be able to hit.. plus a melta bomb to the front of a leman is noramlly a 1 hit kill ST 8 2D6 to pen. thats why i dont play armored co. Normally. as soon as the enemy get into CC with your tanks your dead meat. plus armored doesnt have a CC unit... the Storm troopers? mounted in chimera? thats nothing to the enemy.. just somthing else to shoot up.

COst wise i know the conscripts are cheap but that WS kills them enitrly, you still must say that a WS 4 ST 6 2 attacks each is still a good unit and on charge even better i think for the price ogryn are they are worth it and make up the points in battle... still a3 wounds each T 4 provides a challenge to lots of enemy .even when they die they served their purpose to slow down the enemy assualt. cause us guard players we all know or at least to me.. shot em up before they get to our lines.

For Hardend Vets.. the only thing they got is WS 3 anf infiltrating... makes them good but turn to mince meat asa the game starts. I think for the IG what they are to need if to get upgraded in the codex.. is heavy weapons teams. they are the most usless unit in game.. like said before hittign half the time. but there AP value still doesnt kill some standard enemy infantry such as marines.. Auto cannon.. AP 4 ... I thk that should be AP 3 i mean the Hvy Bolter is Ap4 ST 5 Auto cannon iS ST7.

Lascannon is the best of all the Hvy teams. ST 9 AP 2 1 shot though so really it doesnt help. Maybe for an improvment the HVY bolter shoudl get 1Heavy D6 attacks and so shoudl the auton cannon but on a roll of 4 of the same number would cause the gun to jam. that what i would do.

Best Infantry werapoins is the plasma gun. ST 7AP 2 and if you stand still get up to 3 attacks. just the count goes up to a 3 for the gets hot rule. Also i know this is in another thread, but there should be a Guard Medium tank. the chimera is a light tank i would put it. BUt i thikn a tank wtih a 12 11 10 with like a auto cannon or conquerer cannon would make a good light tank for like i say maybe 80 Pts. ( buy the weapon seperate.)

I also lastly think the guard should have a seperate close combat infantry unit.. not mounted.. give them Las pistols and Clost comabt weapons for all of them for a2 attacks each + 1 on the charge, at ST 3 wouldnt be so bad wit h WS 3. that would be good i think. with armor 4 + would make a great close combat unit. but will fall witha T3 1 wound.

Bloodknight
22-05-2007, 14:53
Ogryns are infantry, but not Guard Infantry (Guard Infantry is a rules term which allows certain doctrines to certain units like command squads and platoons, but not Ogryns, RR, conscripts etc.).

don_mondo
22-05-2007, 15:12
Ogryns are infantry, but not Guard Infantry (Guard Infantry is a rules term which allows certain doctrines to certain units like command squads and platoons, but not Ogryns, RR, conscripts etc.).

Yep, see page 55 of the codex for a list of units that are considered to be Guard Infantry.
However, with that said, there are a couple of doctrines that say every unit, not every Guard Infantry unit............... Don't have the codex here at work so I'll let someone else jump on that.

Colonel Jacka
22-05-2007, 15:16
Ogryns are infantry, but not Guard Infantry (Guard Infantry is a rules term which allows certain doctrines to certain units like command squads and platoons, but not Ogryns, RR, conscripts etc.

NK,

What bloodknight and others have said is correct! But Ogryn's are still damn fine in the close assault. Hey! You guys stop spreading rumours about them getting rid of doctrines. :eyebrows: Hmmm! I still haven't recovered from my Bretonnians losing the Lance and Arrowhead formation. By Pius I used to love those formations. And once upon a time you used to be able to take Ogres as allies....................... Hmmmm,

*Jacka starts mumbling to himself about the old days!*


Steiner has the right of it here. Yes the IG has weakness, but we ain't some genetic freaks, or xenos scum. The IG are the regular Joes who do jump in the face of death and laugh. So they may decide that discretion is the better part of valor at times. thatst he roll of the dice, as I know all to well .

As my good friends says this is the reason a lot of us play IG. If the 40K world was real SM would be few and far between and a Guardsmen could go most of his life without seeing one. The Imperial Guard and Navy are the Bastion of the Imperium, the rest are nice to have's or also runs! :eek: ;) :D

Lord Cook
22-05-2007, 15:19
Ill have to look that up cause i keep tryign to find things about the ogryn to make sure they can take doctrines... and havnt found that it is illegal. Ill reread it when i get home. BUt if you could tellme OUtlaw what page it is on.. cause ogryn are considered Infantry, but illlook for it when i get home.

Codex: Imperial Guard, page 55, bottom left, just above the words "Restricted Troops". There is a section entitled 'Guard Infantry' with a definition of all the units that count as guard infantry. Ogryns are not on there.

None of the doctrines can be applied to ogryns. Sorry.

EDIT: don_mondo got in there before me with the page reference. By RAW you could give ogryns chem-inhalers, but that's been addressed in an FAQ which stated chem-inhalers are also 'guard infantry' only. Apart from that, no, ogryns cannot take doctrines.

Colonel Jacka
22-05-2007, 15:28
Lord Cook,

Thanks mate I will put my dex down now I was just looking for that. I'd be hard pressed to say it was an incidence of chessy RAW though. You quote covers of on that point nicely.

Neighbor Kid
22-05-2007, 15:28
Ok ill lok at it when i get home. and have to change my list around a bit.. i ahte being in school right now.. so close to summer next week!

But even still Ogryns are still an efficient close combat unit.

Colonel Jacka
22-05-2007, 15:34
I've personally have had my rear end saved from the ogryn. :wtf:

NK,

I enjoyed reading most of what you said but this part had me a little concerned. :eyebrows: :eek: :D Don't let Hoots see that comment you will never live it down and he may sig you.

Feran
22-05-2007, 15:38
:wtf:

NK,

I enjoyed reading most of what you said but this part had me a little concerned. :eyebrows: :eek: :D Don't let Hoots see that comment you will never live it down and he may sig you.

Yeah, Jacka is right. Hide that. Now if you want to not have that ringing in your ears for the rest of this thread.

Barbarossa
22-05-2007, 15:44
Best Infantry werapoins is the plasma gun. ST 7AP 2 and if you stand still get up to 3 attacks. just the count goes up to a 3 for the gets hot rule.

How'd you get 3 shots with a plasma gun? Rapid Firing only allows two.

Neighbor Kid
22-05-2007, 15:46
IT says that in the Big book under weapons... says a stationary Plasma gun can get up to 3 shots, but risks for a hihger chance to over heat.. unless that meant for a tank plasma weapon but plasma cannons dont get more than 1 attack.

btw got rid of the line =)

dam bells about to ring for my next block ill post later whn i get home before work

Hooter Hunter
22-05-2007, 15:52
:

NK,

I enjoyed reading most of what you said but this part had me a little concerned. :eek: :D Don't let Hoots see that comment you will never live it down and he may sig you.

To late:evilgrin: NK there is so many ways I could go with this, but considering ya are new and havent learnt of my reputaion I will go easy on ya, this time.

Now for some advice given to me by a CSM player that has helped me out alot here of late. Diversify your army a lil, have more than 1 one thing to worry your enemy. Next month my league is gonna go to 1850pts to prepare for the Necro tuorney in Orlando in July. But upping the points I will now be able to take Ogryns, a full squad of Rattlings as well as a full battery of 3 heavy mortars. Whoever I play will hav to choose between 3 pie plates a turn and pinning, Ogryns getting into their rear (end:evilgrin: ) and Rattlings pinning them, not to mention the fact that 10 of them will make a C'Tan quake in his boots.

Colonel Jacka
22-05-2007, 15:53
To late my friend! I couldn't resist it such a wonderful line!

Hoots,

I have decided to get the Thud Guns. :D Bty of three I think and the Bombard. How has that beast of yours been going? Any luck or haven't you built it yet. Hey and where is the pictures of the side armour.

Lord Cook
22-05-2007, 16:02
IT says that in the Big book under weapons... says a stationary Plasma gun can get up to 3 shots

I think you must be mistaken. No plasma weapon can get more than 2 shots, and even then that's only with rapid fire. I'll go and check the BGB because you seem sure, but honestly I'm not expecting to find anything to support you. Sorry and all that.

Colonel Jacka if you wish for the quotes in your sig to act like normal quotes (rather than having to write in 'Originaly posted by'), just put these on either end of the relavent quotes. The number reference is meaningless, it doesn't matter if you have the same number for two different quotes. You will have to add "[/QUOTE]" at the end of each quote however, with these (see below) at the start.

[QUOTE=asmodai_dark86;1579323]

[QUOTE=Neighbor Kid;1579323]

Feran
22-05-2007, 16:04
Told you that you were going to get it from Hoots. Welcome to our everyday lives. :p

5 pt guardsmen would be nice. 15pts for a powerfist would be nice.



What would you all think about giving grendiars the option of a heavy weapon? In my mercenary list I wanted to make a better equipt/ trained squad but I choose not to because of the lack of a heavy weapon. Yes I know vets can take it but I am curious what you guys think.

superknijn
22-05-2007, 16:18
Stormtroopers are meant to storm, not to carry heavy weapons ;)
That's why you have the rest of your army.

Also, WS2 is only worse than WS3 against WS5 attacks, and those are rather rare.

Colonel Jacka
22-05-2007, 16:34
Colonel Jacka if you wish for the quotes in your sig to act like normal quotes (rather than having to write in 'Originally posted by'), just put these on either end of the relevant quotes. The number reference is meaningless, it doesn't matter if you have the same number for two different quotes. You will have to add "" at the end of each quote however, with these (see below) at the start.

[quote=asmodai_dark86;1579323]

Bugger stuffed that one as well. But thank you Sir for your advise. :D

Right I'm of to bed. See you guys later. Over to you Blue Leader!

ash_wednesday
22-05-2007, 16:39
I believe on of the major problems with the guard is the lack of different guard factions. The only affordable ones as of now are the Cadians. Voystrons are great models but they are metal and expensive. Catchans are just...I don't know but they're just really un-attractive looking to me. Guard are supposed to be about diversity in different factions. Now the only guard armies you see out there are Cadians. Can you say Boring?! Sure The old guard armies and forge world guard are still available, but who wants to pay $50-60 for a 10 man squad? Whenever the IG codex gets updated(god knows when that will be) GW should realease more factions. All they'd really need to do is give each faction a plastic troops boxed set, plastic heavy weapons box set, and an officer blister.

What they should do is treat the IG factions like they treat the Space Marines factions. Give them a codex for each faction. There are books for the basic marine, dark angel, blood angel, black templar..etc. Could they do the same for the IG? At least for the major factions.

tuebor
22-05-2007, 16:51
IT says that in the Big book under weapons... says a stationary Plasma gun can get up to 3 shots, but risks for a hihger chance to over heat.. unless that meant for a tank plasma weapon but plasma cannons dont get more than 1 attack.

The reference to Gets Hot weapons firing 3 shots is so the developers could include some Heavy or Assault weapons that Get Hot at some point in the future if they need to. An IG Plasma Gun is a Rapid Fire weapon and can only fire twice.

Lord Cook
22-05-2007, 17:15
Bugger stuffed that one as well. But thank you Sir for your advise.

It's difficult to explain because if I write it out the way you need to write it, it will just turn it into a quote bubble with nothing in it.

Basically, just quote some random remark. When it puts you in the "reply to thread screen" just replace the name of the person you quoted with asmodai_dark86, for instance. Then replace the basic text with what asmodai said that you wanted in your sig. Copy and paste the whole thing into your sig.

@ ash_wednesday - I think the doctrine system already represents the different imperial guard regiments very well. There's no real need for different codexs for each regiment, nor would it be viable for GW to do so. And this way, we can create our own regiments with our own rules (via doctrines) and not be stuck into making the pre defined type of army that our codex dictates. We have more variety in one codex than the marines have in any 3 of theirs.

jfrazell
22-05-2007, 17:42
And thats why the doctrine system started. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was the first codex to attempt to unite multiple subcodexes into one large codex (Steel Legion, Crapachans, Elysians, Krieg, Chemdogs, Canadians off the top of my head). It came before marines, the Nid redux and Eldar redux which attempted the same thing.

Hooter Hunter
22-05-2007, 18:25
jfrazell- You are correct as the IG Codex was the first to do this and was the first of the Codex redos for the new rules. I am just fuzzy on whether it was pre 13th BC or just after it.

Neighbor Kid
22-05-2007, 18:30
Oh, sorry i thought that was meant for the Plasma weapons as a whole. my bad guys. im in class still lol. dang it i got caught. ... =(still think that maybe Hvy Bolters maybe be a pinning weapons? i mean if you were to look back at WW2 and WW1 espeically looking at the MG42 that weapon caused all soldiers of all armies to hit the dirt. maybe the Hvy bolter with 1 Hevay D6 could cause that? actually better idea for the auton cannon, reminds me of the 20mm um maybe it actually shouyld be 1+ 1 D3 Heavy.for auto cannon it will be roll 3 same numbers and the weapon jams for D2 turns but at Ap 3 like i said in an eariler post. or maybe the IG can get a upgrade of An assualt Cannon team. . i posat morew when i get home.

Gen.Steiner
22-05-2007, 18:32
And thats why the doctrine system started. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was the first codex to attempt to unite multiple subcodexes into one large codex (Steel Legion, Crapachans, Elysians, Krieg, Chemdogs, Canadians off the top of my head). It came before marines, the Nid redux and Eldar redux which attempted the same thing.

Exactly. The specialist armies you can create from it are:

Catachans, Savlar Chem-Dogs, Terrax Guard, Harakoni Warhawks, Death Korps, Kanak Skull Takers, Cadians, Valhallans, Tallarn, Mordian, Armageddon Steel Legion; Tanith 1st.

GUARD LEAD THE WAY! :p :D

Lord Cook
22-05-2007, 18:35
GUARD LEAD THE WAY! :p :D

And clog up the enemies fire lanes with corpses, allowing the marines to swoop in, get an easy victory and then take all the credit.

jfrazell
22-05-2007, 20:06
jfrazell- You are correct as the IG Codex was the first to do this and was the first of the Codex redos for the new rules. I am just fuzzy on whether it was pre 13th BC or just after it.

Sorry 13th BC?

CommisarMolotov
22-05-2007, 20:08
Sorry 13th BC?

I'm guessing BC = "Black Crusade."

jfrazell
22-05-2007, 20:08
And clog up the enemies fire lanes with corpses, allowing the marines to swoop in, get an easy victory and then take all the credit.

Role reversed. The marines have already landed, gotten their butts handed to them on a platter, and have called in the real soldiers to take care of the situation. Ever wonder why marines only seem able to attack soft military governors and their security guards...
:eek:

jfrazell
22-05-2007, 20:10
I'm guessing BC = "Black Crusade."

After BC. The Cadian list was done just a few months before the IG codex-hence Kasrkin utilizing grenadier doctrines, sharpshooters and sanctioned psykers (and autocannon sentinels can't forget the chicken kickers).

ash_wednesday
22-05-2007, 20:19
@ ash_wednesday - I think the doctrine system already represents the different imperial guard regiments very well. There's no real need for different codexs for each regiment, nor would it be viable for GW to do so. And this way, we can create our own regiments with our own rules (via doctrines) and not be stuck into making the pre defined type of army that our codex dictates. We have more variety in one codex than the marines have in any 3 of theirs.It does. And could include in a "basic IG Codex book" like the SPace Marine book. But then have other codexs foucesing on the other IG Regiments and their Doctrines. This way, when we get a new codex, we could get some new support for Gw IE: new plastic models.

I also heard rumors that we may lose the docturnes in the next codex.

Colonel Jacka
22-05-2007, 22:08
And thats why the doctrine system started. It was the first codex to attempt to unite the Canadians. :wtf:

jfrazell,

Nothing could unite the Canadians, they are either British or French! :eyebrows: Yeah! I know what you mean I couldn't resist.

All,

Back to the thread. The latest codex for IG was produced just before the 13th Black Crusade Campaign. I remember because not all of the new Cadian (Canadians:D ) had been released and it introduced the now famous Lord Castellan Ursakar E. Creed. (One of the best Commander Figures ever released!) Hmmm! I think it was just before the start of the Campaign and designed to whip the IG into a frenzy of painting.

Lord Cook,

I get it. Thanks mate I was having a joke with you! Sorry! :(

Colonel Jacka
22-05-2007, 22:35
Exactly. The specialist armies you can create from it are:

Catachans, Savlar Chem-Dogs, Terrax Guard, Harakoni Warhawks, Death Korps, Kanak Skull Takers, Cadians, Valhallans, Tallarn, Mordian, Armageddon Steel Legion; Tanith 1st.

GUARD LEAD THE WAY! :p :D

Steiner,

Indeed they do! :D But your not quite right, you of course can use the Doctrines to build any Army you like. For example Hoots Carolonian Guards and his Forest Guardians.

Lord Cook
22-05-2007, 22:44
I get it. Thanks mate I was having a joke with you! Sorry! :(

Ah my apologies. I'm afraid my sense of humour consists of sarcasm and a mild pretension at wit and not much else.


I also heard rumors that we may lose the docturnes in the next codex.

I think that's more to do with people believing anything they fear to be true. I can't seriously imagine we would lose the doctrine system, and besides, we have a long time yet before the IG get a new codex.

Bloodknight
22-05-2007, 22:46
I also think we will just get on with it even if we lose the doctrine system.

Bob-stefanio
22-05-2007, 22:50
I think the major problem facing the imperial gaurd is scepticism you think its a terrible army its not you think it is really weak its not it has REALLY good points it has some bad points. Its not major on assault but it can be! Its not major on accuracy but who needs it with that many shots! I dont see any really major Problem hear say with them i think they are a nicley balanced army

Gen.Steiner
22-05-2007, 23:02
Yeh, but it'll be sad, especially for me and my multiple armies. I'll use the old 'dex at home and the new one in GW with my Rigellians if they do delete the doctrines in a Cyberman-like manner.

Lord Cook
22-05-2007, 23:08
My theme isn't dependant on the doctrines, I just use them to pad out my army a bit (like with COD and independant commissars) so I wouldn't be totally screwed if we do lose them. But I emphasise - I honestly don't see that happening.

Gen.Steiner
23-05-2007, 00:51
I emphasise - I honestly don't see that happening.

Yeh, I don't know how they'd manage to maintain the level of variety the Guard has otherwise. Multiple 'dexes are right out.

Hooter Hunter
23-05-2007, 03:21
Role reversed. The marines have already landed, gotten their butts handed to them on a platter, and have called in the real soldiers to take care of the situation. Ever wonder why marines only seem able to attack soft military governors and their security guards...
:eek:

With the banner of Saint Pius in the lead no doubt. I am gonna sig this one.

Colonel Jacka
23-05-2007, 09:48
I also think we will just get on with it even if we lose the doctrine system.

Yes that's the IG way. Ever accepting of our shortcomings, always willing to serve the Emperor!

don_mondo
23-05-2007, 13:03
Role reversed. The marines have already landed, gotten their butts handed to them on a platter, and have called in the real soldiers to take care of the situation. Ever wonder why marines only seem able to attack soft military governors and their security guards...
:eek:

As I've always said, if you want a parade, call the Marines, if you want to fight, call the IG...........

Colonel Jacka
23-05-2007, 13:24
No doubt about that. Once a Guardsman always a Guardsmen!

Getz,

G'day mate! Having a look at whats being said I see! :eyebrows: :D

Getz
23-05-2007, 13:48
<Botches stealth roll>

Drat!

Yeah, just checking the thread. I already had my say on the subject a couple of pages back...

<Returns to lurking>

Cpt_NinjaPants
23-05-2007, 14:06
Hm
I suppose that...while fragile, as per eldar, they lack elite killy stuff.
Most powerful unit in the army really are still T 3 4+ saves with Str 3 Ap5 guns
Numbers...well they drop like flies unless in cover.
They aint actually that bad, but with them being one of the older codexes they suffer from the creep of newer ones...not as bad as orks or DE though
I agree with everything here.

jfrazell
23-05-2007, 14:19
jfrazell,

Nothing could unite the Canadians, they are either British or French! :eyebrows: Yeah! I know what you mean I couldn't resist.

All,

Back to the thread. The latest codex for IG was produced just before the 13th Black Crusade Campaign. I remember because not all of the new Cadian (Canadians:D ) had been released and it introduced the now famous Lord Castellan Ursakar E. Creed. (One of the best Commander Figures ever released!) Hmmm! I think it was just before the start of the Campaign and designed to whip the IG into a frenzy of painting.

Lord Cook,

I get it. Thanks mate I was having a joke with you! Sorry! :(

Lord Cook I hate to correct you (not about the Canadians I'm just waiting for the breakup so we can grab Western Canada and name it Jfrazellyvania). The EOT came out just prior to the "new IG codex." Look at the EOT book-it will have the Cadian list. The later codex has the Cadians with their doctrines (note they are more than five). Prior to EOT they did not have the autocannon sentinel, grenadiers, sharpshooters, psykers (its for your own good rule).

jfrazell
23-05-2007, 14:20
As I've always said, if you want a parade, call the Marines, if you want to fight, call the IG...........
Quoted for truthery

Corrupt
23-05-2007, 14:26
I agree with everything here.

But unlike Eldar we can have heavy and specials in every squad and still have more troopers than the enemy can actually kill in 6 turns.
Besides if you wanted to win youd play an AC cheese list.
Guard is for nutters like myself who mount light infantry charges against tau firing lines because the command aquila banner is lying on dirt after being shot down. I know im contradicting myself but hell im Rifles Corps to the Core. Lmao Was playing devils advocate before. Love Guard! Hua!