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pestario
15-05-2007, 20:11
Im starting my Fantasy Army with a bunch of night goblins as I got them cheap. I will eventually move over to a more Orc heavy army as with the point increase in goblins they arent much cheaper than regular boyz.

Anyway I am thinking of stocking up on Black orcs with the limited run box of 20 for $40. How many Black orc relastically would I want to purchase? 2 boxes of 20?

I am thinking I will normally be playing around 2500 points or whatever is most common for tourney play.

Crazy Harborc
16-05-2007, 00:26
Heck....go for the two boxes.;) I like using a unit of 24 BOs in my 2500 pt. greenies armies. I really like the new armed to da teef.:D

memitchell747
16-05-2007, 05:02
Reaslistically? 0-1. But, get two, for the price, you wont regret it.

nieto666
16-05-2007, 06:20
You can never have enough black orcs go with two boxes!!

Avian
16-05-2007, 10:46
How many Black orc relastically would I want to purchase?
The optimal number of Black Orcs (models, not units) in a greenskin army is probably 2 or 3. I.e. a Warboss, a BSB and possibly a second Big Boss.

cookiescrumble
16-05-2007, 11:47
The optimal number of Black Orcs (models, not units) in a greenskin army is probably 2 or 3. I.e. a Warboss, a BSB and possibly a second Big Boss.

I'm with Avian, I've never found blocks of Black Orcs any good, whereas the characters are generally good buys. The problem is that a viable unit works out to be too many points. I would rather have 2 blocks of Orc boyz instead of one unit of Black Orcs.

Warboss Alex
16-05-2007, 12:12
The optimal number of Black Orcs (models, not units) in a greenskin army is probably 2 or 3. I.e. a Warboss, a BSB and possibly a second Big Boss.

It's a shame they don't require a unit of Black Orcs for Black Orc characters anymore.. I thought that was very characterful. Although I guess you could argue that Black Orcs are very rare and usually assume positions of power in a tribe by virtue of being biggest..

pestario
16-05-2007, 12:16
WOW...I didnt realize you don't need a unit of Black orcs to run a black orc boss anymore, my codex is coming in this week. If that is the case many more regular orcs or goblins would seem to be the better buy if they still can use a Black ord Leadership. I still like the idea of an all goblin Army, but from what I have been reading people are saying the new rules make it much less viable. Since regular orcs arent much more expensive point wise than goblins.

etancross
16-05-2007, 13:32
I'm with Avian, I've never found blocks of Black Orcs any good, whereas the characters are generally good buys. The problem is that a viable unit works out to be too many points. I would rather have 2 blocks of Orc boyz instead of one unit of Black Orcs.


you've got to be kidding me? you've never found them any good? how can you say that? I played a game against an empire player (a bout 2 weeks ago) and I was also wondering how many black orcs to bring so I stocked up and brought a block of 30 with black orc warboss in this block. The only thing I was really worried about was the empire player had so many flagellants and other troops (I apologize for not knowing all the names of the empire troops) he only had like 8 less troops than I did at the start of the game, but anywayz my black orcs DIS-TROYED everything they hit, they ended up killing a unit of spearmen and over running into a unit of flagellants, I thought they would be stuck for the rest of the game but they hacked them apart then hit something else. Black Orcs are awesome and for someone to say they aren’t very good is just….:confused: wow!.

Zonq
16-05-2007, 13:56
Of course they are awesome!

The problem is that your enemy knows that too and will try everything to shoot them to pieces or deny them a good fight!

Zonq

Avian
16-05-2007, 13:59
Black Orcs are awesome and for someone to say they aren’t very good is just….:confused: wow!.
You need to think of points costs as well. The unit you described probably cost close to 700 points! There is nothing remarkable about a 700-point unit doing a good deal of damage. :D

In fact, if all they did was kill some spearmen and some flagellants, I would not say that they have done well.

Sasha
16-05-2007, 14:28
DE-STROYED everything. sorry, i'd normally ignore spelling, but if you're going to capitalise it . . .

cookiescrumble
16-05-2007, 14:49
you've got to be kidding me? you've never found them any good? how can you say that? I played a game against an empire player (a bout 2 weeks ago) and I was also wondering how many black orcs to bring so I stocked up and brought a block of 30 with black orc warboss in this block. The only thing I was really worried about was the empire player had so many flagellants and other troops (I apologize for not knowing all the names of the empire troops) he only had like 8 less troops than I did at the start of the game, but anywayz my black orcs DIS-TROYED everything they hit, they ended up killing a unit of spearmen and over running into a unit of flagellants, I thought they would be stuck for the rest of the game but they hacked them apart then hit something else. Black Orcs are awesome and for someone to say they arenít very good is justÖ.:confused: wow!.

One of the things that makes us unique is our opinions.

In my opinion they are just a big, shiny points sink. I would much rather have 2 units of 24 Orc Boyz instead of 1 unit of 20 Black Orcs. Killing some spearmen is not really impressive. I've had a unit of Skaven Slaves kill a spearmen unit. The only Black Orcs, IMO that are worth it are the Characters. I always field a Warboss and Black Orc BSB and they always do well. I have fielded them in several games and have never found them to be a good buy. The fact that they have Heavy Armour is not great. A standard Orc can have the same save with a shield and is half the points. The only thing they have going for them is Armed to da Teef!.

etancross
16-05-2007, 15:00
One of the things that makes us unique is our opinions.

In my opinion they are just a big, shiny points sink. I would much rather have 2 units of 24 Orc Boyz instead of 1 unit of 20 Black Orcs. Killing some spearmen is not really impressive. I've had a unit of Skaven Slaves kill a spearmen unit. The only Black Orcs, IMO that are worth it are the Characters. I always field a Warboss and Black Orc BSB and they always do well. I have fielded them in several games and have never found them to be a good buy. The fact that they have Heavy Armour is not great. A standard Orc can have the same save with a shield and is half the points. The only thing they have going for them is Armed to da Teef!.

armed to the teef is a major factor, for the cost of you giving those boyz shields you could add more fanatics, or more NG's. the black orcs always have shields, or chopps, or extra choppas, or even great weapons, plus they have a higher leadership. It might only be a point but that one point is huge, yes killing a unit of spearmen isn't a game breaker, that was nothing but an example but a sold unit of black orc has MUCH more going for it that "Just" armed to the teef.

Franco
16-05-2007, 17:28
I would buy 2 boxes of 20. Blorcs are worth all their points and are important in an army!!!

memitchell747
16-05-2007, 19:27
Armed to the Teef (ehh, but 2 S5 choppas, oh year).
Heavy Armor (with Shield, 3+ Sv, all good)
WS4, S4, Ld 8, all good.
No Animosity! Awesome.
Magic Banner (Spirit Totem, oh my!).
Auto Waaagh! Heavens to Mork! This can be a game winner.

For the price (298pts. for 20 with Standard and Musiscian), I think they are a reasonable buy. Yeah, I could have more orcs, but that means more Squabbles, less impact when and if I do get to the enemy. I can see that BO's aren't the best unit is the game, but they aren't a bad one, either.

To tell the truth, I'm not sold on the emphasis on more crappy troops, even in a horde army. I like variey,and I like cool troops.

Heretic Burner
16-05-2007, 23:48
Black Orcs are an absolutely putrid unit, one of the worst in a book bursting at the seams with bad units. Horribly overcosted they are best left on the shelf.

The only exception to this is Black Orc characters who happen to be one of the best buys in the game in a way. On their own they are miserable, below average characters. However, they do tend to give the units they are in another move in a 6 turn game, thus an absolute steal in points.

Black Orc Units = Dreadful
Black Orc Characters = No-brainer

Crazy Harborc
17-05-2007, 21:46
Well....got the 20 bodies BO box today. Darn good parts for something done by a machine, machine designed.;) I will have bits left over to add to some previous converted into BOs boys. A fair amount of different poses possible, weapons differeneces as well.

Brother Siccarius
17-05-2007, 23:38
I'm with Avian, I've never found blocks of Black Orcs any good, whereas the characters are generally good buys. The problem is that a viable unit works out to be too many points. I would rather have 2 blocks of Orc boyz instead of one unit of Black Orcs.

They're useful for dealing with heavy armored units (Chaos Chosen Knights). Basically for things where strength 5 Big'uns just wont cut it, or an extra 2 strength each round is useful.
Also, when limited to just one unit of big'uns, the black orcs make up for the lack of can opener units.

jahorin
18-05-2007, 01:17
They are the fire magnet unit of the orcs, that's a big problem. For a unit of 20 to see the light of combat you will need a giant *buy a giant*

ahem... more seriously, you will need something more interesting to shoot than your shiny black orcs. That's their main problem. They can come in handy with great weapon if you need to take out some knight or heavy armoured opponent.

I think that the optimal way to used them is as a small elite hitting team to support the rest of the mob.

Lord_Byron
18-05-2007, 04:16
Black orcs are good in large point battles where you have extra special slots and no place to put all the large units of regular orc boyz you should normally be taking instead. The same goes for big uns. Orcs take up alot of space, and once you've reached that limit you're better off upgrading the units you have rather than taking more units... but we're talking over 3k here.

I sometimes take black orcs in smaller battles and give them the Waaagh! banner. A possible 20" charge on a hard unit of infantry can keep even brettonian knights on their toes.

I really like the models.

I would never take more than 20 in a 2k point battle.

Shimmergloom
18-05-2007, 04:44
The optimal number of Black Orcs (models, not units) in a greenskin army is probably 2 or 3. I.e. a Warboss, a BSB and possibly a second Big Boss.

Quoted for truth.

cookiescrumble
18-05-2007, 07:12
If you have problems against Knights etc, then use that special choice for Spear Chukkas instead. That 70 pts for 2, not 300 points for a unit that will probably get killed by the charge.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
18-05-2007, 10:13
I take them for cosmetic reasons, even if an extra unit of boyz would be a better purchase. I'm proud of my paintjob and prefer metal models anyway.

Avian
18-05-2007, 11:09
They're useful for dealing with heavy armored units (Chaos Chosen Knights). Basically for things where strength 5 Big'uns just wont cut it, or an extra 2 strength each round is useful.
Against Chosen Knights, Black Orcs die just as quickly as Orc Boyz, which means that quite few (if any) of them get to strike back.

I reckon that a bigger unit of Orc Boyz and the special choice spent on a pair of Spear Chukkas is a much better investment in this case.

Brother Siccarius
18-05-2007, 17:45
Against Chosen Knights, Black Orcs die just as quickly as Orc Boyz, which means that quite few (if any) of them get to strike back.

I reckon that a bigger unit of Orc Boyz and the special choice spent on a pair of Spear Chukkas is a much better investment in this case.

Killing one Chosen Knight a round for two rounds (as that's usually the most amount of time they're out of combat) doesn't seem to beat wiping them out with a tactical Black Orc charge.

In a combat with a unit of orcs and Black Orcs, (which isn't that difficult to accomplish now) the Chaos player has two choices, attack the overwhelming numbers of the normal orc boyz or attack the heavy armored killing machine of the Black Orcs. If he attacks the Black Orcs he's less likely to kill one, if he attacks the Orc Boyz he's less likely to survive being attacked by the Black Orcs, and if he splits his attacks he more likely to get the worst part of both worlds. Throw in Nogg's Banner of Butchery and you've got yourself a grand party where even if it's just your champion attacking back you stand a chance of evening the score.

memitchell747
19-05-2007, 01:37
You guys are funny. I can name a few really bad units in the game, but BO's aren't one of them. No Squable. Auto Waagh. Hard hitting, well armored, tough, decent Leadership. Hardly the worst unit in the game.

Crazy Harborc
19-05-2007, 01:45
A unit of 35/40 NGs, spears added, with 3 fanatics in the unit...next to the BO unit....THEN your opponent will be wanting to shoot at both units;) OR use a cheap unit to shield the BOs as they cross the field.

Remembering the 2 foot in diameter, "free of terrain circle" at the battlefield's center........if you can place a hill at the half way line of the table.....you'll have the hill blocking shooters on flat ground from seing your BO unit;) May not work everytime...it will work "some of" the time.

The Dark One
19-05-2007, 09:34
black orcs are a great unit in an orc and goblin army. no anamosity, armed to the teeth (yes i like this rule), a posible 3+ save in combat and a good stat line. i can't see the problem. i would take 3-4 units of 20-24 with full command (i would still take a boss)

Avian
19-05-2007, 10:25
If he attacks the Black Orcs he's less likely to kill one
What are you talking about? Chaos Knights hit and wound Black Orcs on a 3+, same as with Orc Boyz, and most of the time, neither unit gets much of an armour save (in fact, a lot of the time the Orc Boyz will have a better armour save).



i can't see the problem.
Look at the cost of the Black Orc unit.

The Dark One
19-05-2007, 21:20
Look at the cost of the Black Orc unit.

the points are ok for black orcs

Madfool2
19-05-2007, 22:16
Take how many you like, its your army.

Makaber
19-05-2007, 23:06
T10 has a very rough tournament army with two units of 18 Black Orcs in it. I think they're pretty damn good. Go with two boxes, you might regret it if you don't in case you need Black Orcs in the future.

Brother Siccarius
19-05-2007, 23:42
What are you talking about? Chaos Knights hit and wound Black Orcs on a 3+, same as with Orc Boyz, and most of the time, neither unit gets much of an armour save (in fact, a lot of the time the Orc Boyz will have a better armour save).



Look at the cost of the Black Orc unit.

Go go Choppa/Shield combo. ("counts as a hand weapon for all purposes", for the love of Gork I'm glad they changed the choppa rules) Even Strength 5 3+ Armor Save is more likely to survive.

Shimmergloom
20-05-2007, 00:13
And then you're wasting your armed to the teeth.

And that's why black orcs suck in the greenskin list. Because they are hampered with a useless special rule that increases their cost when most of the time you don't want all that other equipment.

W/shields you are paying 14pts for 2 1/3 orcs.

And how is anyone going to count on a tactical charge vs chaos knights? Your only hope for charging chaos knights is if the chaos opponent is incompetent, or you luck up and can pursue into them.


the points are ok for black orcs

Again +8 points compared to what you get for an orc is not worth it. It's just too high a price for a horde army.

If you played greenskins as elites, then that would be something, but greenskins should be a horde, not elites.

Brother Siccarius
20-05-2007, 06:52
And then you're wasting your armed to the teeth.

And that's why black orcs suck in the greenskin list. Because they are hampered with a useless special rule that increases their cost when most of the time you don't want all that other equipment.

W/shields you are paying 14pts for 2 1/3 orcs.

And how is anyone going to count on a tactical charge vs chaos knights? Your only hope for charging chaos knights is if the chaos opponent is incompetent, or you luck up and can pursue into them.



Again +8 points compared to what you get for an orc is not worth it. It's just too high a price for a horde army.

If you played greenskins as elites, then that would be something, but greenskins should be a horde, not elites.

Waaugh! Easiest "Tactic" the Orcs have. They don't know when it's coming, they don't know when it'll hit them, and they don't know what it'll do. Your Black Orcs auto-Waaugh and that can often times mean as much as a 12 inch charge, or free wheel from the Waaugh and a charge in the movement phase.

With normal orcs, you're killing few to begin with (Oh no, they only have a 2+ save with your normal, str 4 on 1st round, orcs! the horror!) dealing with even the Knight's horses kicking down your boyz, and the Knights themselves wondering what kind of flies are trying to bite them.

With Black Orcs, I'd use a hand-weapon shield if I don't get the charge or flank on the knights, if I did, I'd use great weapons in a heartbeat to kill the few knights capable of fighting me as I've got the advantage anyways. Against a unit of weaklings, I'd go additional choppa to try to get through them fast.

I don't consider using the advantage of the "Armed to da teef" rules to be wasting them, it's just that I get to choose what's best for the situation. It almost seems like you're saying that it's useless unless they're wielding them all at once for a +2 strength, +1 attack, +2 save bonus.

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
20-05-2007, 08:18
Well ever since my night goblins crushed a black orc unit with warboss I didn't use them anymore and that was3 years ago since then my unit has been collecting dust, but I recently bought the big box and I'm think of fielding a unit from 16black orcs, full commandn, warbanner and put a black orc big boss on ironback boar in it so I have 3 ranks and can deal out some serious damage. That will be ofcourse for in a 1500pts list where I also have 5 savage big'uns, 3 gobbo units from 21, 2 fast cavalry units, 1 unit from orcs and a savage chariot, so a pretty mean combat army:) I'll try it out next saturday.

Greetz
G

Heretic Burner
20-05-2007, 15:11
As an aside, as poor as Black Orcs are its the Armed to da teef rule that just seems mind boggling. This is truly one of the most ridiculous rules in any army book. I cannot imagine the reason for this bizarre disadvantage given to troops already hurt with poorer quelling rules. It doesn't even make sense from a background perspective, one of the supposed goals of the development team in new army books. Bizarre.

Black Orcs have never been pack rats for weapons. They would still be quite poor units, but simply by losing that horrible rule and letting the player choose what weapons to buy BO might actually be fieldable in high point games. It is so easy to fix, so uncomplicated that it will probably end up being a house rule in these parts.

Crazy Harborc
21-05-2007, 03:06
All these negative waves maaannnn. All these bad words about the new improved 7th Edition BOs. Mine been winning HtHs and battles for me. A regular opponent has been using his (new to him) Orcs and Gobbos with a nice sized BO unit......THEY been surviving the battles whether he wins the battles or not.;)

Avian
21-05-2007, 12:44
Go go Choppa/Shield combo. ("counts as a hand weapon for all purposes", for the love of Gork I'm glad they changed the choppa rules) Even Strength 5 3+ Armor Save is more likely to survive.
As said other places, you are then wasting Armed to da Teef and in any case, a Black Orc with an effective 5+ save for 14 pts versus an Orc Boy with an effective 6+ save for 6 pts is not exactly cost-effective.



Mine been winning HtHs and battles for me.
For the umpteenth time: It is not a discussion of whether or not they are good in and of itself, it is a question of whether or not they are cost effective. If I buildt a 800-point unit then it would quite probably survive the battle, but if all they did was kill two 70-point sacreficial units, then that does not mean that they have done particularly well.

Let me make a further illustration:
Take a basic Night Goblin with hand weapon and shield for 3 pts per model.
Then let us assume that GW put out rules for Elite Night Goblins, who were basically Night Goblins, only with WS3 and light armour, for 8 points per model. Clearly the Elite Night Goblin is a decent model, but it sure as heck isn't cost effective - you get a common Goblin who is more or less equally good for a mere 4 pts.

Crazy Harborc
22-05-2007, 01:58
Oh good grief......Okay they are not cost effective. You are right I'm wrong.

By the by I did not say they were cost effective. When you rant kindly do so about what I DID say. Thank you.;)

Avian
22-05-2007, 10:19
Hah! :D

Don't get me wrong, I like hearing improbable success stories as much as anyone else, but this sub-forum is really here to help people improve their tactics. Suggesting a 400 (or 700) point unit for a job that a 200-point unit can do equally well isn't really fair on the newbies and "take the models you like the look of" isn't a tactic. :p

sephi
22-05-2007, 14:55
I have bought 20 black orc with &100 army box.
But in 1000 or 1500 play, i can't use it......
Maybe i will use it in 2000 or more play

Heretic Burner
22-05-2007, 22:36
You could use it but it probably isn't a good idea.

No, I don't think a unit become viable until at least 3000 points. Then the concentration of force may actually pay dividends. Still, they are competing with better special choices so even then it isn't likely they'll be a smart pick.

Shimmergloom
22-05-2007, 22:52
Waaugh! Easiest "Tactic" the Orcs have. They don't know when it's coming, they don't know when it'll hit them, and they don't know what it'll do. Your Black Orcs auto-Waaugh and that can often times mean as much as a 12 inch charge, or free wheel from the Waaugh and a charge in the movement phase.

With normal orcs, you're killing few to begin with (Oh no, they only have a 2+ save with your normal, str 4 on 1st round, orcs! the horror!) dealing with even the Knight's horses kicking down your boyz, and the Knights themselves wondering what kind of flies are trying to bite them.


I'm sorry but the auto-waaagh is not worth the 13-14pts per model either.

A ranked up orc unit at 5-7pts each(naked, shields or 2 choppas) will waagh on a roll of 3+. Throw in the black orc big boss that you can suddenly afford now that you are not paying through the nose for each orc and you Waaagh! on a 2+. So 67-84% of the time you will Waaagh! compared to the 100% that the black orcs do.

So now tell me that this is worth the double cost of the black orc.

As a points cost comparison. 30 orcs w/shields and full command led by a black orc big boss w/heavy armor is 299pts. Core Slot.

20 black orcs w/shields and standard/musician is 298pts. Special slot.

I'd take the former every time.

In my experience the best non-warmachine special choices we have are clearly not any boar boy unit and not black orcs. But squig hoppers, with herds close behind.

I've had great success lately with 2 hopper units who hop out on the flanks where people like to put hills and woods and hopping around the sides of the enemy to hit their flanks and eventually their rear. Support them with spiders or wolves and they can do great things for you.

Brother Siccarius
23-05-2007, 07:43
I'm sorry but the auto-waaagh is not worth the 13-14pts per model either.

A ranked up orc unit at 5-7pts each(naked, shields or 2 choppas) will waagh on a roll of 3+. Throw in the black orc big boss that you can suddenly afford now that you are not paying through the nose for each orc and you Waaagh! on a 2+. So 67-84% of the time you will Waaagh! compared to the 100% that the black orcs do.

So now tell me that this is worth the double cost of the black orc.

As a points cost comparison. 30 orcs w/shields and full command led by a black orc big boss w/heavy armor is 299pts. Core Slot.

and a hero slot. with your main boyz in the unit only strength 3, four on the first round of combat.


20 black orcs w/shields and standard/musician is 298pts. Special slot.

at strength 4 base with strength five on the first round of combat, and access to several other items that your normal units don't have, like great weapons and heavy armor.

Look, it's really more of a style thing, but I resent the fact that the compairisons that they're being put up against are against things that are, admittedly, cheaper, but also have less stats, survivability, and are generally presented as things that you just use to back up a fighty character.

A more accurate comparison would be to big'uns as they are the other killy non-monster foot unit of the army. Or at least a comparison to the other heavy hitters of the army. But no, all I see is a comparison to things that generally just fill out the army, like normal orc boyz (who have a tendency to not kill anything in armor on their own, even on the charge, and even with two choppas).

So far what I've heard:
Giving the Black Orcs shields is wasting their special rules because they might use the shields sometimes when the time calls for it.

Only using one of the possible "Armed to the Teef" weapon combos in any given round of combat for any given reason is wasting the special rule, even if you would use a different combo in a different situation (Again, people seem to think that using the great weapon, the two handed weapon, or the choppa and shield combo isn't worth it because you're not using the other weapons at the same time: YOU HAVE TO PICK ONE PEOPLE!). When I say I'd use a choppa shield combo for one thing, they say I'm wasting it because I'm not using the great weapon; when I say I'd use a great weapon for a certain situation, I'm apparently wasting it because I'm not using the two choppa combo.

The main problem units that specialize in a certain weapon type have, is that they can be easily blocked. Executioners can be blocked by swarms (only one hit per guy, and they can't use their killing blow against them). Chaos warriors (or anyone for that matter) with hand weapon and shield can be bogged down with armored units due to not having many attacks or heavy hitting weapons. Those units lack variability in what they can choose, they always have those weapons and they can be spotted a mile off. Black Orcs on the other hand can switch weapons they use each time an opponent crosses their path, they're given the ability to pick what's best for the situation. Just because they do pick one for any given combat doesn't mean they're stuck using that the rest of the game, as soon as they get themselves out of their tight spots (which they're likely to do given that they've selected the best weapon for the situation) they can go back to whatever you want.




For the umpteenth time: It is not a discussion of whether or not they are good in and of itself, it is a question of whether or not they are cost effective.

Actually it's a discussion about both and neither. The discussion is about how many black orcs should the OP use in his/her army. It said nothing about cost effectiveness and was certainly asking if they were any good.

The Dark One
23-05-2007, 11:06
Brother Siccarius good post and i totally agree with you

Avian
23-05-2007, 12:41
Look, it's really more of a style thing, but I resent the fact that the compairisons that they're being put up against are against things that are, admittedly, cheaper, but also have less stats, survivability, and are generally presented as things that you just use to back up a fighty character.
Well, in Warhammer, being cheaper means that you do in fact have better stats and better survivability, because you are using models in units and not on their own. Thus a cheaper unit (generally) has a higher static CR and more Wounds.

Only if the limiting factor in your army was the number of models and not the total cost of them, could you discuss the quality of a unit without considering how much you pay for it.

Murderous Monkey
23-05-2007, 13:21
An interesting discussion. I will be fielding Black Orcs in 1500-2000 point battles because I like the models and it seems silly to use Black Orc characters without Black Orc units.

While people may argue strenuously that Black Orcs aren't cost effective I don't think that they're so miscosted that they're unusuable, and in my club environment I certainly won't be handicapping myself by having such a characterful unit. People who focus on more competitive match-ups may find otherwise but I suspect Black Orcs will often find a place in my list. Trolls too, as I think the new models are ever so spiffy!

Black Orcs give me some versatility in the army and can serve to attract attention from other tempting targets. In 1500 points I'll find room for a unit of 10 with standard and musician to explain the presence of my Black Orc Big Boss, Gunbad Ironjaw.

Army selection is a question of preference, environment and aesthetics. When I apply these criteria I find Black Orcs fit in nicely, but then I also use Chaos Warriors and will even be tempted by Black Guard/Phoenix Guard when I start my Elven lists and not many people have much love for them either...

Shimmergloom
23-05-2007, 14:22
I guess I have to try and show you point by point again the differences.


and a hero slot.

You're going to use hero slots anyway. Are you planning to play with no characters? I'm showing you that by using orcs you have the points to include a boss and big boss in the unit +10 more orcs.


with your main boyz in the unit only strength 3, four on the first round of combat.

at strength 4 base with strength five on the first round of combat, and access to several other items that your normal units don't have, like great weapons and heavy armor.

Not at all. My big boss has 4 S5 attacks in round 1, when using 2 choppas. He's armed to the teeth too. And he has higher WS, W, I, T and makes the orcs LD8. Plus my boss is a big'un with 2 attacks. So 2 more S5 attacks.

So I have 6 S5 attacks already in round 1. +3 S4 attacks in round 1.




Look, it's really more of a style thing, but I resent the fact that the compairisons that they're being put up against are against things that are, admittedly, cheaper, but also have less stats, survivability, and are generally presented as things that you just use to back up a fighty character.

That's the entire point of tactics. If you can't compare costs inside an army list and can't compare costs for things in other armies, when CAN you compare costs?

The only reasons we have for using black orcs over orcs are the following:

1. They look cooler.
2. At certain points costs, you won't have the room to field all the stuff that you could buy instead of black orcs.
3. Because you said so.

None of these are viable tactics and since this is the tactics forum and he asked how many black orcs should I feel, it's acceptable to expect that many will tell him that the unit is not as effective on the tabletop as 2 orc units of the same size or 1 bigger orc unit with a big boss is. Or a good orc unit and a support goblin unit or 2.



A more accurate comparison would be to big'uns as they are the other killy non-monster foot unit of the army. Or at least a comparison to the other heavy hitters of the army. But no, all I see is a comparison to things that generally just fill out the army, like normal orc boyz (who have a tendency to not kill anything in armor on their own, even on the charge, and even with two choppas).

This isn't correct either. Squigs and hoppers are both as good at killing things as black orcs are. In many cases they are better.

And savages are almost as good as black orcs, with -3 or 4pts each and only using core slots.




So far what I've heard:
Giving the Black Orcs shields is wasting their special rules because they might use the shields sometimes when the time calls for it.

Only using one of the possible "Armed to the Teef" weapon combos in any given round of combat for any given reason is wasting the special rule, even if you would use a different combo in a different situation (Again, people seem to think that using the great weapon, the two handed weapon, or the choppa and shield combo isn't worth it because you're not using the other weapons at the same time: YOU HAVE TO PICK ONE PEOPLE!).

And that one you pick you have to use the entire combat. So when you're using your shield your great weapon and 2nd choppa that you are forced to take are being wasted. You can't hold a charge with your shields and then pop out your great weapon. Thus this rule is wasteful. It's a tournament rule plain and simple. It's only there so that you can use great weapons when you are facing bret armies and 2 choppas when you are facing T3 infantry.


When I say I'd use a choppa shield combo for one thing, they say I'm wasting it because I'm not using the great weapon; when I say I'd use a great weapon for a certain situation, I'm apparently wasting it because I'm not using the two choppa combo.

Correct. You're only going to be in so many seperate combats per game anyway. Maybe 1-3. If you somehow get into 3 seperate combats per game then you might get to use all three combos. Most likely you'll be in 1-2 seperate combats, so that you can't possibly use all 3 combos that you are paying 14pts for. And your shields are just there to help against light shooting. And that's fine. But let's not pretend that using that shield for 14pts in combat is a great deal for the 3+ save, when orcs get 4+ combat save for 6pts and even goblins get 4+ for 4pts and that's after a points increase.


The main problem units that specialize in a certain weapon type have, is that they can be easily blocked. Executioners can be blocked by swarms (only one hit per guy, and they can't use their killing blow against them). Chaos warriors (or anyone for that matter) with hand weapon and shield can be bogged down with armored units due to not having many attacks or heavy hitting weapons. Those units lack variability in what they can choose, they always have those weapons and they can be spotted a mile off. Black Orcs on the other hand can switch weapons they use each time an opponent crosses their path, they're given the ability to pick what's best for the situation. Just because they do pick one for any given combat doesn't mean they're stuck using that the rest of the game, as soon as they get themselves out of their tight spots (which they're likely to do given that they've selected the best weapon for the situation) they can go back to whatever you want.

Again only partly true. If black orcs are stuck fighting swarms or other unbreakable/stubborn troops then they are just as likely as those other troops as being stuck using the same weapons for the rest of the game.

When you get down to it, the way armed to the teeth should have worked to make black orcs more effective for the points vs orcs or savages or even squigs, is to let them switch weapons from round to round like they were to originally be able to do.

Or make armed to the teeth optional for +3pts. So black orcs are base cost 10pts. +3 for AttT and +1 for shields.

Brother Siccarius
23-05-2007, 20:03
I guess I have to try and show you point by point again the differences.

I know the point by point difference, but comparing a unit of regular orc with a Black orc Hero to a Black orc unit, and saying that the unit of regular orcs and the black orc hero are only a core choice is misleading in the extreme when using it to make a point.



You're going to use hero slots anyway. Are you planning to play with no characters? I'm showing you that by using orcs you have the points to include a boss and big boss in the unit +10 more orcs.


I plan on having a unit that can stand up on it's own without having to have a character to back it up in order to have it kill something, Black Orc units are entirely capable to killing things on their own without the need of a supporting character. This isn't 40k, I don't want to play an army that relys on one or two super powered characters to be able to win a battle for me, I expect my boyz to be able to kill something, which, again, black orcs are fully capable of doing on their own.



Not at all. My big boss has 4 S5 attacks in round 1, when using 2 choppas. He's armed to the teeth too. And he has higher WS, W, I, T and makes the orcs LD8. Plus my boss is a big'un with 2 attacks. So 2 more S5 attacks.

So I have 6 S5 attacks already in round 1. +3 S4 attacks in round 1.

Once again, you took my comparison of Orc Boyz to Black Orc Boyz and threw a character in there to try and make a point. I know Black Orc Characters are good, I've played Grimgor's 'Ardboyz before. I'm also aware that most Orcs will not hit anything but a weaker race (Human, Skaven) around 50% of the time, I'm also entirely aware that those hits will not wound anything but a weaker race 50% of the time, I am equally aware that should they have armor or shields your chance of killing anything goes down further, and I am utterly and completely aware that your orc boyz will die to so much as a sneeze that comes their way across the battlefield.

Black Orcs on the other hand are good at wounding things, good at killing things, and good at getting through armor, not to mention more or less (Depends on the opponent's inclination) likely to survive fire from afar that would kill a dozen good Orc Boyz. Sure, the Black Orcs regularly get shot, why? Because the opponent fears any threat that can vary it's armament to suit anything it throws at them, as well as survive what it gets hit with. But hey, if you didn't have Black Orcs, your regular Boyz can pucker up and kiss the cannon ball.

In the end you have to realize that Orc Boyz and Black Orcs follow different paths and are for different things.


That's the entire point of tactics. If you can't compare costs inside an army list and can't compare costs for things in other armies, when CAN you compare costs?

Tactics? comparing Costs? These two are unrelated in fantasy, in 40k maybe, but not here, otherwise no one would play a Dark Elf Army ("Well, I can do the same thing with <this army> but have more guys to do it."). Tactics are what you do on the battlefield, Cost Comparison is what you do before the battle when you want to decide the feel of your army. Heck, I usually don't bother with Cost Comparison, as if my entire tactics are based before I even put anything on the field then I'm utterly screwed if I can't adapt to the changing environment of the table.



The only reasons we have for using black orcs over orcs are the following:

1. They look cooler.
2. At certain points costs, you won't have the room to field all the stuff that you could buy instead of black orcs.
3. Because you said so.

None of these are viable tactics and since this is the tactics forum and he asked how many black orcs should I feel, it's acceptable to expect that many will tell him that the unit is not as effective on the tabletop as 2 orc units of the same size or 1 bigger orc unit with a big boss is. Or a good orc unit and a support goblin unit or 2.


What an utter piece of garbage that was, and actually none of the things you mentioned were A) Tactics, or B) Mentioned by me or anyone on this topic.

The reason we have for using Black Orcs is thus:
1. Auto-Waagh unit: Best chance of getting a charge.
2. Variability in arms: you choose what's best for the situation and blow through it.
3. Great Stats: Doesn't need a character in order to kill things, and is fully capable of taking on fully armored units on it's own.
4. Magic Banner Access: Throw in Nogg's Banner or a good WAAGH banner and kill yourself some wins or guarantee the charge (8" + 2d6 auto, yes please).
5. Survivability: Keep your boyz safe and protected against not just arrows but those pesky champion attacks back when you've killed the rest of the front rank.
6. Reliability: When you get them into combat (admittedly through a hail of fire if fighting a shooty army), they WILL kill things. They will also not squabble amonst themselves right on the crucial turn (You also don't need to lose 4 boyz to ensure this like with a character)

Because I'm a fair man, I'm going to show the reasons not to use them:
1. Takes up a Special Choice: With Bolt Throwers and Rock Lobbers sometimes you will use all those special choices.
2. Expensive: With most people trying to get out as many units as they can, this can be a real points sink if you go too far with them.
3. Curse of Arrow Attraction: With a big shiny unit on the board, for a shooty army this means a big shiny target as well. But then, they were going to shoot you anyways, eh?

Really, that's about it. But that doesn't mean anything at all. Because it's up to how you want to field your army. If you like Black Orcs, field them. If you don't, don't. You can make any army and any unit mixture work if you have proper tactics (Note: Again, cost comparison is not tactics. Tactics are what you do on the board after you pointed up the army), no game is won or lost based on army lists in Warhammer Fantasy, as Night Goblin Hordes of last edition were proof of.





This isn't correct either. Squigs and hoppers are both as good at killing things as black orcs are. In many cases they are better.

But Squig Hoppers are unreliable at best on movement, and sure they can kill them, but that's all they can do, combat resolution tends to bite them in the groin like an angry squig. They also cannot WAAGH, but with the unreliability of the move, sometimes you can surprise an opponent anyways. They're also more expensive than Black Orcs, have less protection from attacks (other than Skirmish), and also suffer the Curse of Arrow Attraction negative as I posted above for Black Orcs.


And savages are almost as good as black orcs, with -3 or 4pts each and only using core slots.


I agree, only if you're talking about the Big'uns through. Oh, and it's only -2 armor with big'uns in combat, strength 5 = -2. They have a good chance of survival considering the ward save (sure it may be a lesser save, but a 6 armor from shiled and a 6 ward means arrow survivability above regular boyz). However, you're talking 12 points a model, 13 if you want a shield, 14-15 if you want an additional choppa for more attacks. At 14 points a piece the Black Orcs have the Additonal Choppa, the Shield, an Auto-Waagh, Heavy Armor, and a great weapon. What do Savage Orcsies have above their dark brethren? Being a core choice and a slightly slim chance of getting away from a bolt thrower bolt or cannonball.



And that one you pick you have to use the entire combat. So when you're using your shield your great weapon and 2nd choppa that you are forced to take are being wasted. You can't hold a charge with your shields and then pop out your great weapon. Thus this rule is wasteful. It's a tournament rule plain and simple. It's only there so that you can use great weapons when you are facing bret armies and 2 choppas when you are facing T3 infantry.


You missed my entire rant about this when you quoted it didn't you?
I'd use great weapons against heavy cav or heavy troops or monsters with high toughness, choppa shield against anything that could get the charge against me or that I'm trying to hold up, and I'd use two choppas against any enemy that I know I can blow through (Skaven, Goblins, Light armored Humans, ect.). It's not wasting it because, look at that, every army has one of those things which one of the combos is good against.

You can't use them all in the same combat at the same time though, no, which is just insane for expecting to be able to anyways. You have to pay a little for your variability, but that doesn't mean you're wasting your variability. See above in my earlier post for examples of units with no variability and why they tend to get wasted against good opponents.




Correct. You're only going to be in so many seperate combats per game anyway. Maybe 1-3. If you somehow get into 3 seperate combats per game then you might get to use all three combos. Most likely you'll be in 1-2 seperate combats, so that you can't possibly use all 3 combos that you are paying 14pts for. And your shields are just there to help against light shooting. And that's fine. But let's not pretend that using that shield for 14pts in combat is a great deal for the 3+ save, when orcs get 4+ combat save for 6pts and even goblins get 4+ for 4pts and that's after a points increase.

The fact stands that in a tournament, league, or situation where you can't adapt to your list to your opponent, being "Armed to Da Teef" gives you an advantage over any other unit in the game (except maybe slayers) due to the fact that you don't have to adapt your list to your opponent to have exactly what you need to kill them. So no, you may not get to use every combo available in each game, but having it there in case you do need to use it means you can face any opponent they throw at you.




Again only partly true. If black orcs are stuck fighting swarms or other unbreakable/stubborn troops then they are just as likely as those other troops as being stuck using the same weapons for the rest of the game.


Not true, Black Orcs with Two Choppas tend to scythe through things faster than those armed only with great weapons, of which the example was, and once you win that first round of combat, ensure your victory in the next rounds by expanding the front rank for an extra four attacks (Now that's tactics).



When you get down to it, the way armed to the teeth should have worked to make black orcs more effective for the points vs orcs or savages or even squigs, is to let them switch weapons from round to round like they were to originally be able to do.

Or make armed to the teeth optional for +3pts. So black orcs are base cost 10pts. +3 for AttT and +1 for shields.

I can agree with the first part, but the second part seems a little silly especially considering your earlier arguments. If they have to take armed to the teef to get weapons other than a single choppa, then you're back to square one.

Brother Siccarius
23-05-2007, 20:08
Army selection is a question of preference, environment and aesthetics. When I apply these criteria I find Black Orcs fit in nicely, but then I also use Chaos Warriors and will even be tempted by Black Guard/Phoenix Guard when I start my Elven lists and not many people have much love for them either...

A Murderous Monkey after my own heart.

stashman
23-05-2007, 20:25
Just look at the new models!!! Atleast one or maybe two units for the looks!!!

Shimmergloom
23-05-2007, 20:45
Are you Matthew Ward? Only he could defend black orcs so much.

Also, squig hoppers can waaagh! They are subject to animosity just as much as any other orc or goblin unit. And a squig hopper charging the flank(which is what you expect them to be doing) will routinely do 7-8 wounds with 7 hoppers attacking. More than enough to win combats. Your hoppers should be in woods alot of the time meaning -2 to hit. They are practically invulerable to cannon and bolt fire and you can't panic them anyway.

And the most important thing about hoppers is that they have no equal in a greenskin army. No other unit can do all 4 of the following: skirmish, fight as hard as orcs, is ItP and ignore terrain.

They can do things no one else can do. Whereas there's nothing black orcs can do that orcs and all the extra goodies you can get with the spare points can't do better.

Brother Siccarius
23-05-2007, 22:53
Also, squig hoppers can waaagh! They are subject to animosity just as much as any other orc or goblin unit. And a squig hopper charging the flank(which is what you expect them to be doing) will routinely do 7-8 wounds with 7 hoppers attacking. More than enough to win combats. Your hoppers should be in woods alot of the time meaning -2 to hit. They are practically invulerable to cannon and bolt fire and you can't panic them anyway.

They're unreliable, you're just as likely to end up just short of an enemy unit as you are to hit it. You're tactic also seems to rely entirely on there being woods close enough to the enemy to be able to hit him even with a bad roll. If you don't just happen to have that intervening cover right next to the opponent you're more likely to get knocked out by any of his flankers. They cost more than Black Orcs, aren't as variable in what they use, and more often than not seem to be a one shot deal as anyone who plays an army that isn't built to shoot the crud out of things will have flank protectors against just such kind of tactics.

If you do happen to declare the WAAUGH then it's more like another animosity test for them than a bonus as they have no ranks to add to their rolls.

klinktastic
24-05-2007, 02:36
Avian is my hero. I just cannot justsify paying for versitility. Why get 1 black orc when I can get 2.5 normal ones. The purpose of a ranked unit of infantry is not to kill everyone, just to hold the enemy in place for a turn or 2 until you can flank it or what have you. A unit of black orcs will not hold anything a unit of boyz could not already hold. They will get broken by the same stuff. So why put all of your eggs in one basket so to speak. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Special slots are so important to help add support units like chariots and chukkas. Plus, 20 black orcs will get reduced to nothing by the time it actually reaches the battle. One of the best parts of having a list that nothing stands out as particularly elite unit is that your opponent won't have something to target. Then they tend to spread their fire around and not concentrate on your super-elite unit. I just don't see the logic in black orcs besides the fluff. And the same goes for Big Uns as well. Orcs and Goblins aren't an army designed for a MSU elites. Its designed for a horde approach. Quantity is the highest quality for OnG. I know you guys disagree and thats cool. I just don't think they are competitive in a highly competitive environment. However you do. So lets all agree to disagree and not troll and flame.

Brother Siccarius
24-05-2007, 05:09
Avian is my hero. I just cannot justsify paying for versitility. Why get 1 black orc when I can get 2.5 normal ones. The purpose of a ranked unit of infantry is not to kill everyone, just to hold the enemy in place for a turn or 2 until you can flank it or what have you. A unit of black orcs will not hold anything a unit of boyz could not already hold. They will get broken by the same stuff. So why put all of your eggs in one basket so to speak. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Special slots are so important to help add support units like chariots and chukkas. Plus, 20 black orcs will get reduced to nothing by the time it actually reaches the battle. One of the best parts of having a list that nothing stands out as particularly elite unit is that your opponent won't have something to target. Then they tend to spread their fire around and not concentrate on your super-elite unit. I just don't see the logic in black orcs besides the fluff. And the same goes for Big Uns as well. Orcs and Goblins aren't an army designed for a MSU elites. Its designed for a horde approach. Quantity is the highest quality for OnG. I know you guys disagree and thats cool. I just don't think they are competitive in a highly competitive environment. However you do. So lets all agree to disagree and not troll and flame.

I like the cut of your jib. I had a whole response cooked up, but since you ended it one such a neutral note, I'll not bother.

klinktastic
24-05-2007, 13:21
I like the cut of your jib. I had a whole response cooked up, but since you ended it one such a neutral note, I'll not bother.

You are truely a gentlemen. I think something that we all forget sometimes is this game is about fun. Fun for me is winning and killing stunties and hummies. However, to others, they might enjoy hobbying or using fluffy armies. If thats what makes them happy then let them go on ahead by invest in an army that isn't going to win tournaments, but will make them happy.

klinktastic
24-05-2007, 13:25
Check out Da Warpath fellow greenskins if you have not already. Its the largest OnG site period. There are lots of resources and a bunch of new stuff going on, especially with The Nemesis Crown Campaign. Sorry for the shameless plug.

http://s3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?act=idx