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UltimateNagash
17-05-2007, 08:29
So, everyone has had enough time to main Phil, burn him at the stake and other various methods of torture, as well as playing with your new Eldar army in the meantime...
Now that the dust has settled, what do people actually think of the new Codex?

Griffin
17-05-2007, 09:52
IT rocks! You can still build ANY of the craftworld varients, create your own craftworlds and all the units have a place. You can safely pick anything without worrying if its going to become redundant.

I see hawks (nevver saw them before), wraithguard, Dire avengers enc. All cool.

Snapchuck
17-05-2007, 09:55
Yeah it's pretty great, all the units I never touched under the old codex were suddenly trying to muscle into my armies. No-one can disagree that all the unit choices are more balanced, slight discrepancies aside.

osickx
17-05-2007, 09:58
It is far from a master piece, and there are major issues that annoyed alot people.

What you have realise is that the Codex was designed to make every unit playable (except Storm Guardians which I cannot see any reason for fielding EVER) and for a huge variation in army lists seen out and about. In this the Codex, I believe, has succeeded spectacularly.

What was sacrificed annoyed many, namely the Craftworld lists. The fact everyone now chooses from the same lists, makes it more balanced, yet I personnally rue the loss of Blackguardians, which were chosen mainly because of the strength of the starcannon and punching Warlocks in the Seer Council. This allowed gamers to create tournemmnet lists that were overpowered. The same could be said perhaps with Biel Tan; Dark Reapers as troops and 3 wraithlords for example.

Although all this has leveled the field and made picking an army list so must more difficult, Games Workshop would be naive to think that this codex, as any other will completely balance out Eldar armies. There were people who abused the Codexes before and people will create the uber lists that GW was so at pains to eliminate. Over time, a standard list will emerge, one that is loosely followed by most tournement players (Harli's and Dragons in tripped out Falcons, anyone?)

The codex was a success and i like it, but I think the faults will show as people being to abuse them and the initial joy of trying out new optins becomes less of a feature, and a familiar pattern of composition slips in

golembane
17-05-2007, 11:13
Over time, a standard list will emerge, one that is loosely followed by most tournement players (Harli's and Dragons in tripped out Falcons, anyone?)


The dragon's in falcon bit has been around far, far longer timeframe then the 4th ed codex. It just makes sense that a unit that doesn't need full strength to be put in a half-transport instead of the wave serpent.

Harlie's are naked in the open, and since they can't have a transport anyways, there is only one option in which to deliver them in relative safety.

Kitted out falcons are not cheap, and since the 4th ed codex has been released I have yet to see people fielding 2+ of them anymore. Usually 1 falcon and 2 fire prisms for a mech list, or 1 falcon, 1 prism, and a unit of warwalkers, ect.

Ianos
17-05-2007, 11:52
I play with 3 falcons mostly because i love the mobile warfare theme and also because i haven't had the time to recreate my army. And yes they seem unkillable but they also have severe disadvantages especially in tournaments where cover is sparse. For the 615 poins one can get 3 kitted out dark reaper squads that: have cover, cannot be shaken, have a 3+ save, 48" range, possibly anti-tank missiles and can effectively lay waste to all MEQ armies (and do serious damage to GEQs) especially in tournaments. 15 non-upgraded reapers will kill 13 marines/round at 48"! while the falcons only need 6-7 lascannons shots a turn to become effectively useless.

Sildani
17-05-2007, 12:00
Love the new Codex. Phil did a great job. Heck, I even run Shining Spears now, whereas before I didn't even own the models. Same with Swooping Hawks, which are now surprisingly multi-role. The Fire Prism got the multi-mode cannon and BS 4 that players wanted it to have - those very upgrades were discussed on EldarOnline five years ago. The Avatar is now much beefier, and with the apparent de-tuning GW will give the Greater Daemons, the Avatar ought to truly be able to go toe-to-toe with them.

There are really very few obvious choices in the Codex, as well. Warp Spiders come close - they're in every list I've made so far. As for useless units, well, Storm Guardians are about it.

What don't I like? Only that Ulthwe Strike Force is no longer playable. To me, that was the epitome of the Eldar way of war - limited Aspects (save Reapers), elite troops, not a lot of heavy equipment, awesome psychic support.

What did I expect to see that I didn't? A new Aspect (though Harlequins count, I suppose), a new vehicle (a Wave Serpent-lite), and a mess of new psychic powers. I seem to recall someone saying that the Eldar were once again going to become the psychic masters of 40K, and while Doom and the Runes of Warding help, it's not quite there.

Oh, and rending ponies. Dammit, I was promised those!

Locke
17-05-2007, 15:08
well MEQ players arn't whining aobut he starcannon anymore...

-They made the waveserpent more role oriented
-Tuned the wraithlord's cost
-Messed up on the starcannon (due to the silly "main" weapon secondary weapon rule, that holds stuff back and makes light tanks too powerful and mobile tanks too weak)
-The falcon is still too hard and doesnt deliver enough fire power
-Warp spiders a bit out of balance but not too bad
-Fire Dragons: str8 weapons and a point decrease? i dont get it...
-Where'd haywire grenades go? only 1 troop unit can get it
-guardians still have no realy battlefield role, but i guess they can fire one big gun
-brighlances are bit too expensive, they were never that good anyway at least when comparing to lascannon costs
-scorpions got move through cover FINALLY!
-Eldar jetbike are coolz again

The main thing that helps eldar is the new DA book, with long overdue point cost adjustments for landspeeders, drop pods, predators, lascannons, and extra armor, and limitations of Marine character's help prevent 170 point dudes from ripping through countless squads

exsulis
17-05-2007, 15:15
Eldar Vehicles are too cheap for what they do.
Dragons shouldn't be able to use transports, its just crazy.
Brightlances, scatterlasers are way too cheap.
the Starcannon is finally about right.
Warp spiders are pretty close to being balanced.
Eldar HQs are too powerful, and cheap compared to any mexed out SM hero.

SwordsofChaos
17-05-2007, 15:24
Exsulis, I beg to differ. Ever tried matching an autarch vs a Daemon prince of Khorne? It shouldn´t be a pretty sight. And Space marine heroes doesn´t have to be maxed out. A librarian with furious charge, familiar and a jump pack or bike should cut it too.


Edit: Yay, 150th post!

Eldanar
17-05-2007, 15:29
I am a former Biel-Tan player, and I like the list overall. It allows for many different play styles, and *almost* every unit is a viable option, depending on how you are trying to structure your force.

I do not think you are going to see a "one size fits all" type of list. Although Mech lists will still predominate for tournaments. I do not think that this is an indication that somehow they are "better" over all though. Rather, mech lists have a tendency to require fewer models and they play faster, which is a prerequisite any time you are having to play in a short time-limited game, which tournaments often require (the recent Atlanta RTT comes to mind, where I do not think any round was over an hour and a half long).

As far as craftworlds go, here are my thoughts:

Biel-Tan more or less broke even, and maybe came out a little bit to the positive side. It lost Dark Reaper troops, but gained dark reaper indirect fire, as well as having the aspects spread around to different spots on the FOC. You can no longer field 60 of any one aspect (except Dire Avengers), but I'm not so sure that the DA's are not the best aspect now, point for point. Also, ALL of the aspect choices are now good.

Iyanden actually got a little bit better, by not having the 1:1 requirement of wraithguard squads to wraithlords.

Saim-Hann actually got better, as the jet bikes and shining spears are much, much better now.

Alaitoc and Ulthwe both got taken down a peg or two, but to a large degree, IMHO, they needed to be.

Add to this, that "vanilla" Eldar got way, way better, and I think this comes out as a plus for the designers.

UltimateNagash
17-05-2007, 15:51
Eldar Vehicles are too cheap for what they do.
Are you looking at the same Codex as us? They're about even cost with SM tanks, yet die easier... :confused:

Dragons shouldn't be able to use transports, its just crazy.
Why? Cause they have Melta Weapons?

Brightlances, scatterlasers are way too cheap.
Ur, how is the Bright Lance too cheap...

the Starcannon is finally about right.
You're a SM player, aren't you?

Warp spiders are pretty close to being balanced.
How were they not before?

Eldar HQs are too powerful, and cheap compared to any mexed out SM hero.
Hm, I wonder why they're more expensive. Because they have more stuff and are better?

ZiggyQubert
17-05-2007, 15:57
Exsulis, I beg to differ. Ever tried matching an autarch vs a Daemon prince of Khorne? It shouldn´t be a pretty sight. And Space marine heroes doesn´t have to be maxed out. A librarian with furious charge, familiar and a jump pack or bike should cut it too.


Edit: Yay, 150th post!

Of course the Autarch is best used in conjunction with other things, like the biketarch with SS for instince or the +1 to reserve rolls, or the fact that he can be built to fit a spicific nich (like tank hunting if necessary or CC etc)

glowing in the dark
17-05-2007, 16:07
Let's just say that this dex made up my mind for me. I played with the thought of collecting eldar for some 3 years, and now finaly decided collecting them. Though i don't really need a 3rd army(previous 2 remain unfinished) I couldn't resist them no more. Firstly 'cos new models came out, and secondly of fully playful (almost) every unit.
I just looove it...
Btw. I was allways a big fan of Warp spiders, and am very glad to see them being played.

jubilex
17-05-2007, 17:02
Well, all I can say is well done the guys behind the eldar dex. As the rumours, pre release were getting more solid, I was getting less so. Indeed some of the stuff (starcannons, heavy 2, nooooo) had me having to keep very close to the tiolet indeed. But, where phill tooketh away with one hand, he gaveth away with the other. Everyting has its place, yeah, I know, storm guardians. I was squirming "where is my range heavy firepower (guardians + heavy)" well, it did go, but was replaced by heavy medium range firepower (dire avengers). Warp spiders have always been excellent. I remember the manager of the local store (years ago) saying "I didn't realize warp spiders were so good" after they destroyed a third of his army and rolled up his flank.
So, with my other love (chaos), I am full of trepidation as far as the rumours are concerned. But, with a bit of luck, maybe there will be a few pleasant surprises.

exsulis
17-05-2007, 17:24
Are you looking at the same Codex as us? They're about even cost with SM tanks, yet die easier... :confused:


They are cheaper, and way harder to kill. Eldar vehicles are pretty BROKEN atm. Seriously, if you have 3 tanks at most you'll loose on average is 1, and thats if you're really unlucky.



Why? Cause they have Melta Weapons?


I was atually refering to the range, cheapness of the unit, and the exarch ability.



Ur, how is the Bright Lance too cheap...


You can have a crazy number in a 1000pt list. Sure, 39 is a bit excessive but you can still reasonably do it, and have a decent force unless your fighting nids.



You're a SM player, aren't you?


Check under my armies, and you'll see which ones I own. Yes, I've played with Eldar codex, and even with a **** poor list you can still dominate pretty much every army. Chaos would be the exception being an army you can accidently cheese out.



How were they not before?


The points cost seemed off to me. Though I'm not too fond of the exarch.



The main thing that helps eldar is the new DA book....and limitations of Marine character's help prevent 170 point dudes from ripping through countless squads



Hm, I wonder why they're more expensive. Because they have more stuff and are better?

Yeah, their ubre heroes that other armies can't always match. Their at bit unreasonable for the points, and they can slaughter squads of guys.

UltimateNagash
17-05-2007, 17:51
I was atually refering to the range, cheapness of the unit, and the exarch ability.
Although strong, against hordes they're pretty much useless - and the points quickly add up

You can have a crazy number in a 1000pt list. Sure, 39 is a bit excessive but you can still reasonably do it, and have a decent force unless your fighting nids.
Same number as you can get Lascannons for Marines...
Oh, and maybe you didn't notice, but see how many flame templates they can use ;)
I'll comment on the rest when I get back from Tennis. Sorry...

Shallowain
17-05-2007, 17:54
How, in the unholy name of hades can you put 39 BRIGHT LANCES in 1000 points? there is no way to do this. the cheapest platform for them is the warwalker and 3 units of 9 cost 870 points and only give you 18 bright lances. There is no way to build a legal army with those 130 points left.

The absolute maximum you can put in one FOC is 44 Bright lances at 4335 ponts, this includes the absolut MINIMUM just to field those.

2x farseer with 3 warlocks and Serpent with BL
3x 5 aspects, serpent with BL
6X 10 Guardians with BL, serpent with BL
3x 3 Vyper with BL
3x 3 Warwalker with BL

Show me the list where you can put 39 BL in one FOC at 1000 points.
Oh and just for the record 39 bright lances bought at the cheapest cost mean _1170_ points alone so don't even try.

Colonial Rifle
17-05-2007, 18:14
Overall I think the codex is very good. Certainly light years ahead of Gav's codex:farce.

However, the Harliequins need to be fixed. It's bad enough that the falcon is virtually unkillable, but that they transport the ultimate cc doom unit with very little risk is idiotic. Very simple change for the FAQ - let them be targeted by ordinance with normal night fight rules. Currently guard are screwed by Space clown armies.

The Song of Spears
17-05-2007, 18:25
What you have realise is that the Codex was designed to make every unit playable (except Storm Guardians which I cannot see any reason for fielding EVER)

I just want to address this in particular, that 11 storm guardians and a warlock with a single flame template in the squad(maybe two if you want to) and a singing spear are as killy as dire avengers when dumped out the back of a wave serpent... by the odds of dice and templates, they will kill just as much if well placed... even more so with Doom from a nearby farseer...

pantera
17-05-2007, 18:39
Aside from the points mentioned above (excluding this little war thats erupted), I think the new codex is awesome. Granted there are a fair number of gray areas with the rules, maybe one of these years a FAQ will come out. Aside from the seer council getting tossed out the window, Ive really got no complaints. I mean, fair enough boxing warlocks and the such REALLY needed to go, but it would have been nice if some sort of option was still there. Id love to field 2 units of warlocks, but cant quite sqeeze a second farseer into my list. Which brings me to my next point. IT IS SO HARD TO DECIDE!!! So many amazing choices, so little room.
But really, what gives with the starcannon? Cut a shot, or raise the price. Why both?

Xarian
17-05-2007, 19:01
Overall I like the codex (every unit is useful now), but it was really disappointing that Farseers lost a toughness without any provision for stopping instant death via perils of the warp.

The chances of losing a Farseer to instant death due to perils is pretty low for the first couple turns, but it adds up (especially if you're fighting against Runes of Warding). It's not really a serious balance issue - just something that irritates me and makes me weary of using my primary HQ choice.

I was a little surprised that only Swooping Hawks could get Haywire grenades. It's great that they get them at all, but I'd like to see at least one other squad that could get them (Storm Guardians, Dire Avengers, whatever).

Locke
17-05-2007, 19:36
well the developers had great opportunity to fix issues with all of the eldar tanks, with haywire nades, the starcannon, and guardians as a whole.

they just decided to do the easiest and most straight forward thing which seems somewhat generic and diappointing...

Karhedron
17-05-2007, 22:38
I am pretty impressed with the codex on the whole. I have played Eldar since 1st edition and the new codex is way better than the excuse for a 3rd edition list.

I would not go so far as to say it is perfect, some niggles still remain but overall I think it is one of GWs best codices to date. Most unit choices are pretty feasible and you can make lots of different styles of army. I have seen mecha, infantry heavy and massed War Walkers already just at my local gaming club and they all seem to do about as well as each other (or about as well as the person playing them ;)).

I think the Eldar codex sets the bar pretty high for future releases. I am looking forward to seeing a cheese-free Chaos list and a slightly buffed Ork codex in the next year or so.