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View Full Version : Do I have to move in a straight line?



WhiteStar
08-08-2005, 09:25
I didn't find the answer to this in the BRB. BUT:

If my Screamers are placed behind an enemy unit within 8" prohibiting marching, can they (within their normal movement) fly over the enemy unit making slashing attacks and returning back to their original position. I find this logical, but I still wonder. Is there anything in the BRB or any rules clarification saying that you may not "run in circles"?

Thanks!

Festus
08-08-2005, 11:04
You may indeed run in circles.

Greetings
festus

Hashut's Li'l Helper
09-08-2005, 00:09
where does it say you can do this? I also have had this argument.

WhiteStar
09-08-2005, 06:56
I talked with some guys in my local GW and we came to the solution that it is ok. In 40k there is a rule stating that (for the sake of the tanks getting hull down for moving fast) if you state moving "over 12" " you have to end your movement 12" from your original position. In FB there is no such rule.

Unless someone has a different opinion...I'll take it that you can start and end your movement in the same place.

T10
09-08-2005, 07:06
Single models can make any number of turns ("pivot") during their move without penalty. Skirmishers also have this ability, though they move as a group.

You might want to move the models, though. It at least shows that you are making an effort rather than "coasting".

-T10

WhiteStar
09-08-2005, 07:32
Sure, it's no big deal moving them a little to the side from their original position. The idea is just to use the screamers to make a swift turn above the unit and then returning from where they came.

Festus
09-08-2005, 10:01
Hi


where does it say you can do this? I also have had this argument.
In the section on Skirmishers in the BRB, I suppose :)

Festus

WhiteStar
09-08-2005, 10:50
The problem is this ( and it isn't covered as is in the BRB).

You have to fly over an opponents unit in order to make the slashing attacks. But then I would fly back, not just pass over them and land on the other side. This is (I believe) only critical for screamers, since for no other unit does it matter HOW they got there - it doesn't matter where you moved - only where you finished it. But I guess there is nothing in the BRB forbidding the screamers to make a trip over a unit instead of moving straight from A to B as long as it doesn't cross their maximum movement allowance of 20".

T10
09-08-2005, 11:59
I agree that this is legal - assuming there are no other restrictions in the unit's special rules.

It is no worse than getting shot at by a unit of skirmishers, but the whole thing about moving without actually moving... It sucks.

-T10

gortexgunnerson
09-08-2005, 16:46
I actually think you can't do this ~Page 106 in the Big red book says

"Flyers never need to wheel or turn, but can always make their move in a direct line"

Which means you can basically place them 20" in any direction without manovres (counting other restrictions) and they count as having moved their in a direct line. Which IMO means they cannot fly in circles or even fly over and back. But it is the the inclusion of can and need in the quote above do cast doubt on this. But I would use that line against flyers doing laps

WhiteStar
10-08-2005, 05:22
Hmmm...interesting. I think they haven't really had the screamers in mind when doing this. And as you said, can and need in the sentence puts it under doubt. I for one does not consider it rulesbending doing this. I mean, it does't break against the spirit of the game in any way. A couple of deamons making a hit and run attack seems perfectly logical to me... If someone wants to be a ruleslawyer and prevent me being logical then that's a wholly different case!

T10
10-08-2005, 06:56
I actually think you can't do this ~Page 106 in the Big red book says

"Flyers never need to wheel or turn, but can always make their move in a direct line"



If that you draw the conclusinon that fliers cannot wheel or turn and must always move in a direct line, then those fliers are going to leave the table pretty quick.

Think about it.

-T10

TeddyC
10-08-2005, 11:38
No it just says they never NEED to.

If that was a ranked up unit (with a 20"M) it would have to go forward over target unit, then wheel 180, then move straight back to its starting position (minus how far it had to wheel)


With screamers as they are flyers and all flyers are skirmishers by definition you could fly forward 10" over the target unit then turn back around for free (skirmishers or flyers dont need to wheel) and move 10" back to your starting position.

If flyers could only move in direct lines it would make them much less mavouverable.

Of course ive not got the screamer rules hand to check their 'hit and run' style attack, so i dont know if this is possible with this particular unit.

Crube
19-08-2005, 09:18
Never really thought about this before, but i would say that a hit and run style attack of 10" out and 10" back would be ok.

As an aside to this, for the slash attack, as it's not a charge, do you need to have LOS to do it.

probably best to get this over my means of an example.

unit of screamers are a few inches behind some woods. a few inches the other side is a unit of wardancers. Neither can see the other.

can the screamers fly over the woods (as they are flyers), over the wardancers, and slash the wardancers.

I say yes as you can chose which unit you slash if you fly over them in the remaining moves phase. It doesnt count as a charge...

What's the concensus here?

Griefbringer
19-08-2005, 09:30
As an aside to this, for the slash attack, as it's not a charge, do you need to have LOS to do it.


As the rules stand, I would say that you do not need LoS.

It is not a charge, it is not a missile attack, and there is no special rule requiring LoS either.

Yanos
19-08-2005, 09:31
Sounds fair. As you say, it's not a charge, and it's not carried out in the Shooting Phase, so unless it says so in the Slashing rules, I can't see it needing LoS.

Crube
19-08-2005, 10:30
There is nothing in the Screamer rules stating you need LOS. The only thing I can think is that he hits (only 1 S3 per Screamer) are distributed like shooting, but as you say, it happens in the movenment phase so...

lets go with that! - Cheers guys

mageith
20-08-2005, 03:41
If that you draw the conclusinon that fliers cannot wheel or turn and must always move in a direct line, then those fliers are going to leave the table pretty quick.

Think about it.

-T10
I think the intention is that they move as chariots do (or did in the orginal rules for 6th edition)--changing direction at the beginning of the move.

"When moving a chariot simply measure the distance and move it." (127)

and

"In effect, chariots can turn to face any direction without reduction to movement." (127)

The pivot thing entered the picture after the BRB was written (Chron IV, 114) and I think it was a mistake. It will be interesting to see if it gets fixed.

Mage Ith

Lady's Champion
20-08-2005, 12:25
I agree I think it is like turbo boosting bikes in 40k- it is a one direction move, then next turn you change direction- we always played it this way

I don't think you can turn

To solve it, does it say in Screamers rules anything like you can't slash the same unit multiple times? No, it does not, proving that they can't or they'd be too good.

Izram
20-08-2005, 13:58
It doesn't say that each time you move over it they take hits, it says to effect a unit, move over it. Going off of the unit and then re entering it will not inflict extra hits. ex. A large based ranked unit like ogres that doesnt fill its last rank leaves a little 'step' pattern at the end; you fly over one corner of the base, leave the unit, then re-enter it on the last rank, then leave, all with a straight line. They don't take extra hits then, why would they if you moved, stop and moved back?

Lady's Champion
20-08-2005, 14:42
I'm pretty certain flyers move in a straight line and end their move there- I've scoured all my White Dwarves and all fliers have always done this- no-one has ever moved them back again

Cheesejoff
20-08-2005, 18:27
If that you draw the conclusinon that fliers cannot wheel or turn and must always move in a direct line, then those fliers are going to leave the table pretty quick.

Think about it.

-T10

I think it means they must move in a direct line during their move. They can turn before and after it, but they have to move in a straight line.


I'm pretty certain flyers move in a straight line and end their move there- I've scoured all my White Dwarves and all fliers have always done this- no-one has ever moved them back again

You would really only want to move screamers back again...apart from them, there's not much point in using any other unit to do it with.


There is a rule in 40k that stops you doing this, but I don't believe it appears in fantasy. Basically, it's up to you how you take the "Never need to turn" rule, whether it means they can't turn or you can always choose not to turn during a move.

Lady's Champion
20-08-2005, 18:32
I reckon what with being skirmishers they have 360 degree LOS so don't need to turn

Crazy Harborc
20-08-2005, 18:35
IMHO, the topic question of this thread is easily an example of a situation that could be used to save lots of down time(looking it up time). IF the opponents can agree to what they feel is a good solution ;) ..............Searching is done back to the game.

It's good to do it by the book. BUT, when the answer is not quick and easy to find, why not do what the writers of the rule book suggest. Fake it, decide what is correct(if you can). Role a die, let the odds/numbers/odd or evens decide.

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 05:03
Thanks! This topic has sprouted some interesting debating! They way I used them in a tournament was to slash some pistoliers and then turning 120 degrees and flying behind a forrest. MY opponent asked me if I could really do that. I said, "Why not?". They slashed the unit once, they moved within their allowed distance. And he was like "Uhhmm..ok, fine" - I even had a consensus on this with the GW manager.

And as said before, this only applies with screamers - they are the only unit that has an aeffect during the movement phase.

Selsaral
23-08-2005, 16:04
I'd like to ask a related question: can screamers slash on people in melee? This isn't a shooting attack or a melee attack. My instincts tell me no, but I can't find any rules about it.

Cheesejoff
23-08-2005, 17:05
I believe it says the Screaming attack happens in the movement phase, so no.

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 17:18
Hits from Screamers are distributed like shooting and shooting into CC is prohibited...so no.

Selsaral
23-08-2005, 17:27
Sorry but neither response pushed the right button in my head.

Why does the fact that the screamer's attack happens in the movement phase automatically disqualify it from affecting people in melee?

And it merely says the hits are distributed like shooting hits, in order to make sure that rank-and-file troopers are hit before characters (even if the screamer touches a character) etc. They aren't shooting hits.

WhiteStar
23-08-2005, 18:32
There are alot of occasions where the expression "distributed like shooting" is used. If there is a clear ruling on the meaning of that then problem is solved. Myself I have not flewn them over units in melee, ie. slashed fighting units.

Selsaral
23-08-2005, 20:27
Yes but I don't think there is. There are specific prohibitions against shooting or casting into melee however. But not one broadly for all damage that is 'distributed like shooting hits'.

Is there any other attack in the game that works like the screamer's slashing attack? I.E. one that happens in the movement phase?

mageith
24-08-2005, 01:27
Yes but I don't think there is. There are specific prohibitions against shooting or casting into melee however. But not one broadly for all damage that is 'distributed like shooting hits'.

Their attacks 'count as missile attacks'. IMO, that means that they are missile attacks in all ways except as noted (for example, they occur during movement). So no they can't be used against a unit engaged in close combat.




Is there any other attack in the game that works like the screamer's slashing attack? I.E. one that happens in the movement phase?
Distributed like shooting is a term that has just risen up and is not really defined in the BRB, AFAIK, so we are not really sure to what it refers.

Things can be distributed like shooting that are not shooting attacks and not all shooting attacks are distributed like shooting.

I think DLS refers to the last paragraph on page 97.

Mage Ith

Griefbringer
24-08-2005, 07:43
Their attacks 'count as missile attacks'.

Care to mention where in the Hordes of Chaos this is stated? My copy (English version) states on page 40 as follows:

"Slashing attack: In any Chaos turn where the Chaos player hasn't declared a charge with them, Screamers can attack an enemy unit which is not inside a wood or a building by moving over it during the Remaining Moves part of their movement phase. This inflicts an automatic Strenght 3 hit per Screamer and the enemy cannot fight back - these hits count as missile hits and may force a Panic test. A Screamers unit (sic!) may only use this special attack against one enemy unit per turn, even if they fly over more than one unit in that Movement phase."

mageith
24-08-2005, 13:57
Care to mention where in the Hordes of Chaos this is stated? My copy (English version) states on page 40 as follows:

"Slashing attack: In any Chaos turn where the Chaos player hasn't declared a charge with them, Screamers can attack an enemy unit which is not inside a wood or a building by moving over it during the Remaining Moves part of their movement phase. This inflicts an automatic Strenght 3 hit per Screamer and the enemy cannot fight back - these hits count as missile hits and may force a Panic test. A Screamers unit (sic!) may only use this special attack against one enemy unit per turn, even if they fly over more than one unit in that Movement phase."

???? I highlighted the area on what you typed. I used the words 'attacks' instead of 'hits'. Sorry.

Mage Ith

Selsaral
26-08-2005, 13:16
???? I highlighted the area on what you typed. I used the words 'attacks' instead of 'hits'. Sorry.

Mage Ith

Yup you're absolutely right. I didn't read closely enough and hadn't refreshed my memory lately. It's very clear these are to be treated as missile attacks, not simply that the damage is distributed like missile hits. So definitely no slashing into melee.

Thanks.

GodHead
29-08-2005, 05:28
Do people really think flyers are unable to turn? It states on page 106 that "Flyers suffer no movement penalties for changing direction..." which to me would imply that they can indeed change direction, and the part that was quoted earlier merely states that they do not need to wheel or turn to do so.

mageith
29-08-2005, 13:09
Do people really think flyers are unable to turn? It states on page 106 that "Flyers suffer no movement penalties for changing direction..." which to me would imply that they can indeed change direction, and the part that was quoted earlier merely states that they do not need to wheel or turn to do so.
A little WFB history for you:

When that was written, the 'pivot' didn't exist. I particular I am talking about the UNIT STRENGTH SINGLE MODEL'S MOVEMENT rules on page 114 of Chronicles 04.

From 5e to 6e the rules made a major rule change that allowed a unit to WHEEL (not pivot) in the middle of charge. No thought was apparently given to what this means for single models. Prior to that no one even thought about flyers. Prior to that flyers could get anywhere they wanted in a straight line, simply by measuring and moving. After all they could overfly other models and even impassable terrain.

Once the pivot was introduced, then things like U-turns were conceived of and so-called tactical wheeing.

Mage Ith