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Sanjuro
17-05-2007, 22:58
Right, so here is what I was contemplating for my new army. I wanted to do something different from my other 3 armies (Chaos, DoW and OK).

Liche High Priest with Hieratic Jar, Cloak of the Dunes
/290

Liche Priest w. Staff of Ravening
/160

Liche Priest w. Dispel Scroll
/140

Tomb Prince w. Great Weapon and Golden Ankhra of 4+ ward save.
/149


24 Skellies with shields, standard and musician
/207

24 Skellies with shields, standard and musician
/207

16 skellies with bows
/128

2 Tomb Swarms
/90

Tomb Scorpion
/85

Tomb Scorpion
/85

4 Ushabti
/260

4 Ushabti
/260

Screaming Skull Catapult
/90

Screaming Skull Catapult
/90

So that's 2241 pts - if I play 2000 pts battles I just drop one unit of 'shabtis and put skulls of the foes on one or two of my catapults. The idea here is to put out some serious hurt with the catapults (which are undercosted, really), force the enemy to advance into one of my many tarpits (which Ushabti can also act as - they are pretty much rock solid) and flank'em. The liches go in the skellie units until the going starts to get tough, when they skidaddle out and hide behind the units or somewhere safe.

I also find there is a nice feeling of symmetry to the list. I mean it is symmetrical - and yet it ain't.

What say you?

Dranthar
18-05-2007, 03:10
If you want to go for raw power, replace your swarms, ushabti and skeletons with skeleton horsemen with full command in units of 15-20 (for the rank bonus) and give skulls of the foe to both of your catapults.

Your army then becomes very mobile and very capable of getting off flank charges, which should annihilate most units thanks to your good starting combat resolution and outnumbering.

I've seen an army similar to the above (ie horsemen and catapults) do extremely well in tournaments (he won at least a few of them too).

Vattendroppe
18-05-2007, 08:26
Not to mention that swarms is 0-1.

Deathraven
18-05-2007, 09:22
I think you'd be better off with a unit of chariots for your lord. Tar pit your opponent with skellies then mash them in the flank with that and its all over.

Esco Thomson
18-05-2007, 13:49
I think you'd be better off with a unit of chariots for your lord. Tar pit your opponent with skellies then mash them in the flank with that and its all over.

His Lord is a LHP who can not be in a chariot. I'll assume you mean his prince. In that case he would need to drop a special choice and get a unit of chariots. Something I strongly agree with.

I am also saddened by the lack of Carrion here, a unit of 5 would have been pretty nice, but as always our special choices become full fast. I would however make sure to replace one unit of the slower Ushabti with something that has a bit more movement on it.

As for your character setup, well I prefer the Plaques on a LHP, because to me the constant 3d6 re roll proves to push more through during the course of a game, than just one extra spell. I would try to fit the plaques on the LHP and give the jar to the LP with the scroll. A horse for at least your priest with the staff might be nice also to give him a bit more range.

You will have to combine the two swarms listed into one unit as they are a one of choice.

Chris_Tzeentch
18-05-2007, 13:52
I think you can only have 16 skeleton horsemen in a unit max.

Sanjuro
18-05-2007, 17:20
Not to mention that swarms is 0-1.

Ruddy hell, sorry 'bout that. Guess you can see I haven't got the Army Book yet, eh? My Army Builder-fu is sorely lacking... The points cost is still the same, though.

I dunno about chariots though, are you guys sure? I was thinking of a stand back and shoot type of army - a bunch of fast cavalry chariots with my main fighty character perched on top doesn't seem to fit very well, not thematically and not tactically. I'm afraid I am also very (read: extremely) unimpressed with skeleton horsemen of both the light and 'heavy' variety. Point for point, Ushabti seem like a better support unit altogether, even with the much slower movement. Or am I completely trippin' here? Out bicycling, as we say where I come from. I mean, I don't know, that's why I am asking you guys.

Well, the plaque is very nice, for certain. And while the units will be more or less fixed in this army (I won't collect more than 2250 pts), the magic items needn't be, so I will certainly playtest it and perhaps also use it. I would also love to be able to fit in skulls of the foes on my catapults - d'you think it would be worth dropping the 4+ ward on my prince for that? I need to find 40 pts somewhere, and I can't really shave it off from the skellie units.

bedurnk
19-05-2007, 03:13
Tomb Swarm units are 0-1. You can have up to 5 bases in one unit.

This seems like a solid variation on a typical defensive list, really. Mine is similar, except my specials units are a Tomb Scorpion, 5 Carrion, 4 Ushabti, and 3 Chariots with either the +1 to hit Icon or the Undying Legion banner. I like having the US5 flying unit with T4 A2 to help warmachines, march block, and to make enemies flee into them from fear or whatever other reasons. I take the chariots because they make a fine hammer after they're hitting your blocks of skellies or other sponge units. The TK defensive list is often a counterattack list. Mobility helps out counter-attacks very well, hence the suggestions.

On the topic of the cavalry, I only take cavalry for fun games. I rarely use them seriously. I know some people can and have done it successfully, but the heavy cavalry works more in an offensive, charioteer army or something similar. Flank charges with US 30 can be pretty awesome when it comes down to it. However, the points can be used elsewhere in a defensive list, where not everything is about advancing and attacking the enemy.

I personally probably wouldn't take the 4+ ward save magical item. It's nice, I know. Things like that can definitely save his life when it comes down to it, but I prefer my princes/kings to pack a little more punch. Helps out when it comes to CR. :P

As Esco said, I prefer the plaques on my LHPs more often than the hieratic jar. If I have the extra points, I'll grab the Jar as well, but being able to reroll that blasted 6 on a 3d6 roll to a 15 always helps.

I would only ever take the Skulls of the Foe upgrade if I had extra points or, for whatever reason, my opponent said "Let's do 2300 instead of 2250." It's a nice upgrade, definitely. But for 20 points for one, 40 for two, you can spend those points elsewhere and possibly reap some more benefit from them. Things like that also work well against certain armies more than others. Average leadership of 7 armies are hurt a lot by SotF. 7 is the most likely number to come up on a 2d6 and to remove that advantage and make them have to roll less than 6 can be quite harmful. There'll be a lot of "Crap. That was a seven. Stupid upgrade." So it all comes down to how you want to spend your points and who you're up against. There are some armies where you just use it as normal artillery and the panic doesn't do anything against. There are some where it defines the battle. Very situational, indeed.

And if you ever need extra points, drop those musicians. Yeah, they're nice, but they're not needed. They can be used devastatingly, but they're the first things to get rid of in many's opinions. I don't often see more than just the standard on the command side of many TK armies. I often don't even use anything but a standard, if I even felt like taking one.

ANd back to cavalry, if I use cavalry, it's because I feel like having a great annoyance unit. Throw a LP on a steed and have him ride out with the light horsemen to use a staff of ravening and the bowfire. Of course it's a little hard at first, but can be some great fun when it comes down to it. In fact, I'm due for a battle tomorrow morning with a friend or two and I plan on utilizing that tactic. Mainly because I like my LP on a steed model, but it should still be fun. It's always fun to roll as many dice as possible!

So yeah. Definitely seems like a solid list. Biggest problem is mobility for the counter-attack and lack of fliers to march block or hunt lone mages or warmachines. Carrion are great with their T4 and A2, making them some fearful things, indeed!

Have fun with TK!


-b

Vattendroppe
19-05-2007, 08:29
Tomb Swarm units are 0-1. You can have up to 5 bases in one unit.

Yes, but they're listed as two seperate units.

Deathraven
19-05-2007, 11:11
I hate to say it, but it's completely impossible to out shoot a true defensive army with 16 archers and 2 catapults. And when you meet such an opponent you'll be facing a long march across the board to get into combat, especially if its something like dwarves that can dispel the bulk of your movement spells.

I recently played against a simillar list at 1500pts with my magic heavy High Elves. My opponent simply couldn't get across the board quick enough and really regretted leaving his chariots at home. (As a side note he has completely smashed me in another game, so im not saying my elves are all that!)

I agree that the horsemen arn't that flash but i'd recommend at least trying out the chariots before you dismiss them.

Morph
19-05-2007, 11:20
I'll weigh in with additional support for Carrion. Your hero selection is identical to my force, which means you can throw an awful lots of movement spells at the Carrion in the first turn. This gives Carrion a first turn charge, normally against enemy war machines. This makes them better than Tomb Scorpions in a magic heavy army, and helps you win those shooting wars.

Drop the swarms! They have no use whatsoever. They are too weak and curmbly to use to hold up the enemy. So I'd suggest dropping one Scorpion and the swarms and using the points for 4 Carrion and some more magic gubbins for your characters.

I'd give your LHP a ward save of some kind. Even when flying around he's still vulnerable to enemy magic. Keep the Jar, the surprise factor is brilliant.

Chariots I've never liked. Too weak and not enough impact. I'd stick with the Ushabti as your heavy hitters.

Sanjuro
19-05-2007, 13:47
Thank you all for your valuable input. And Vattendroppe: Mea Culpa, all right? I've changed it now. Won't happen again. ;)

Deathraven: Yes, outshooting a true gunline won't exactly happen (but then, it never will with any configuration of TK). I'm pretty OK with that, since I almost never face those types of armies. I face Empire and Dwarves, sure, but I've been blessed with sensible mates who don't cheese out, not the way I do. :cool:

Bedurnk and morph: Thanks for those long and insightful posts. Bedurnks army appears to be more of a combined arms type than the list I posted. I've thought a lot about Carrion and they certainly are tempting, especially for the war machine/weak missile unit hunting. I just figured in this list that I would use my burrowers to knock out enemy war machines. The swarms seem pretty decent at this in theory, that's why I included them - they do burrow, right? I'm not taking the **** again, am I?

Anyway, I will certainly proxy some carrions - the models are brilliant, if nothing else. I was kind of sad I didn't find any room for them in this list, but I am also very reluctant to take only one scorpion. That seems like the type of unit that really comes into its own when you take two of them. I've also faced scorps before and know first hand how damn good they are.

And one of the reasons why there are no cavalry or chariots in this list is because I wanted to use as few soft targets as possible. Units of 4 Ushabti are far from soft (rather, they are dead 'ard), but a unit of 3-4 chariots is pretty durn soft actually, and the inability to flee from charges really hampers them in my opinion. I realize TK aren't the easiest army to play, but when I face Tomb Kings and see units of 3 chariots I pretty much just think 'Oh great, free VP". I've never had them do very much nasty stuff to me.

But perhaps I need to be enlightened? Are there facets to chariots that I've missed? It just seems to me that if a unit of cavalry sets off towards my chariots in a mood for charging, there isn't really all that much I can do about it. Sure, I can charge them, but I'm not that likely to make much of an impression, and if there is a Character with them... goodbye! Now, with ushabti - I can take a charge, no problem. They can beat or hold up for the entire game pretty much any cavalry unit (apart from the very nastiest, of course). My point is - they don't seem soft, and chariots seem to be. Am I wrong?

I am not that concerned with the mobility factor for counter-attack - should I be, perhaps? I figure that if I just castle up with the units able to give mutual support to one another (and the catapults either on a hill or between the units), I can suck up the charge on pretty much any one of my tarpits and then counterattack in the next turn - if I'm out of range, I just spend half my magic phase on propelling the unit into that juicy flank. I usually face low to medium magic armies. Well, there's dwarves, but even against 7 dispel dice something has to get through, right? That's what I figured the strength of the TK magic phase is - I get to throw the equivalent of 11-12 power dice at the enemy with no risk of failure, so at least half of that magic is bound to get through versus 5-6 dispel dice. I realize I might need the plaque to strengthen my magic phase further - it is priority 1 right now.

bedurnk
19-05-2007, 14:00
Tomb Swarms are quite useful. You just have to deploy them differently than you would normally. And they can still tie up certain units if you know what you're doing. Sure, it'll only be for a turn or two, but it's up to you to make it count. Granted, I rarely take them, but that's because there are other things I prefer.

The best benefit about chariots is to have a TK or TP on a chariot in the unit of chariots. Especially since you can equip him with the Chariot of Fire for even more impact hits, and then you have an even harder hitting force that's far more mobile than the Ushabti. I'm not dissing Ushabti, I'm saying that it's wise to take both. Make use of the hard-hitting power of the Ushabti and the mobility of the Chariots. It's an incredibly effective way of going about doing any hammering.

Edit:

Whee. You posted right before I opened the thread again. :P

It's definitely a pretty good list. My 2250 army has two units of 20 archers and a unit of 16 archers. I don't often take the HW&Shield ones because.. well, it's too much to explain. I do in lower point battles, but when I can have a LHP and everything else I'd need to kill things off the sponge units, I never ended up quite needing them. Maybe it's luck, maybe it isn't.

The chariots by themselves have to be used with coordination with other attacks. A unit of 3 chariots on their lonesome is not bound to do amazing by itself. Unless you have a TK or TP in there with the unit, then it can do some major damage. It's a support unit when there's just a basic three chariot unit, not quite as much as a huge hammer or anything. You have to coordinate your magic effectively to get them into the flanks of enemy units where it's easy to knock them dead, outnumber, and auto-break (or, if it's other undead or whatever, hope they run away or crumble into oblivion.) And you can also avoid the problem of not being able to flee by realizing that with magic, you effectively have a charge range of 24". 8" normal, 16" magical charge. You shouldn't need to get too close to any unit that's going to threaten that large charge range, unless they're fliers, and those don't normally go after charioteers. They'd much rather kill off our SSCs and end those ranged panic bombers. :P

The biggest thing about chariots in terms of weaknessess is that Strength 7 hits comepletely destroy the model. So avoiding cannons and high strength monsters/characters is another factor in the fielding of chariots.

But I'm not trying to convince you to absolutely take them, but merely displaying some of the benefits if used right. :D Enjoy.

-b

EvC
19-05-2007, 14:18
Where are those Liche Priests going to be deployed? If they're ni your Skeleton units and you take a charge with your opponent moving his character next to your Priest, there won't be anything you can do to stop their destruction. Champions are a good thing...

Sanjuro
19-05-2007, 14:45
Well, I just this minute bought a couple of used Carrion (among other stuff), so I guess I'll be using them. I wasn't initially planning on buying models so to be able to vary my force, but a little variation never killed anyone, right? ;)

I'd also assume that tomb swarms are useful with the new skirmisher rules that got released in the FAQ. Or did that only apply to US1 skirmishers? I forgot. In either case, I am right about them being able to burrow, am I? It seems to me to be an effective way to take out a war machine or two.

Thank you for more insight on the usage of TK chariots. Well, I am not quite sold on them still (seems like a bit of a gamble and points sink, especially with the Tomb Prince on chariot). However, I have about a metric tonne of chariot models in the house, so I will certainly proxy them at some point to see how they feel. And yeah, cannons would be a problem, but I'd rather see them shooting at the chariots than at the SSCs.


Where are those Liche Priests going to be deployed?

They'll be deployed in the skellie units - one in each. I'll probably mount one or two of the regular priests as well (I'll shave off a few musicians or whatnot to find the points). When the going gets tough (and the enemy gets close), they move out of the units and take cover behind them. That's why I also don't have a ward save on my HLP - the cloak is only there for those turn 3 redeployments (turn 2 if I'm facing cavalry! Yipes!), up until that point he will be sitting nice and safe in his skellie bunker, helping in the noble task of getting the catapults to pump out 4 shots a turn.

bedurnk
19-05-2007, 15:00
Where are those Liche Priests going to be deployed? If they're ni your Skeleton units and you take a charge with your opponent moving his character next to your Priest, there won't be anything you can do to stop their destruction. Champions are a good thing...

We usually remove them before such a thing happens. You can do that, you know. :P

EvC
19-05-2007, 18:00
Thanks for pointing that out in such a charming manner! Okay, what if you're playing an opponent with any form of ranged (including magical) attack and can target the priest?

bedurnk
19-05-2007, 23:19
Wasn't being completely serious, more joking, as it's obvious people can do that. Hence they usually playful ":P" emoticon. :/

Then you hope ward saves help you or you try and protect him and don't put him in a unit to begin with. And then there's always "Look out Sir!"

Sanjuro
19-05-2007, 23:38
As I stated in my last post:


they move out of the units and take cover behind them

:)

I figure they are safe from everything except cannonfire and non-los spells there, and there really isn't any effective method of protecting oneself from those things anyway, save killing the cannons and mages. There are of course also fast units with ranged attacks that can circle round my units and get at my cowering priests that way. In that case, I tip my hat and tell my opponent Well played, Sir! If I haven't managed to take out those fast and soft support units by that time, I guess I deserve some heat. Nothing is fool-proof. :)

I'm not that concerned about protecting my chars - I'll probably mount both my liches for the armour save and extra movement though, that might be useful. The HLP should probably be capable of moving out of harms way with his 20" move, provided there is enough terrain (hey, we aren't fightin' in the desert, are we? Um...).

bedurnk
20-05-2007, 00:42
That cloak saves many a hierophant's life. :P

Sanjuro
20-05-2007, 12:17
So do you feel that Carrion are worthwhile in smaller numbers than 5? And furthermore - am I right in assuming that if there are war machines in the enemy force, I would do best to allocate all my burrowers to tunneling up near them and destroying them? Carrion would of course help with this, but I see another, very important role for them - charging fleeing units that were panicked by the catapults. They can't be everywhere at once.

Or are Tomb Scorpions best used purely as a countercharge element? I am curious.

EvC
20-05-2007, 12:28
I figure they are safe from everything except cannonfire and non-los spells there, and there really isn't any effective method of protecting oneself from those things anyway, save killing the cannons and mages. There are of course also fast units with ranged attacks that can circle round my units and get at my cowering priests that way. In that case, I tip my hat and tell my opponent Well played, Sir! If I haven't managed to take out those fast and soft support units by that time, I guess I deserve some heat. Nothing is fool-proof. :)

Oh how I wish I could play against people like you, happy to remove crucial characters and place them where they think they're safe, only to be scuppered by the presence of a single hill :D

Sanjuro
20-05-2007, 13:14
Oh how I wish I could play against people like you, happy to remove crucial characters and place them where they think they're safe, only to be scuppered by the presence of a single hill :D

Well, the idea would be to kill off enemy war machines by the time the main battle line of the enemy reaches my line and I am forced to plop out my liches. Hill or no hill. That very same hill might as well be on my side, giving my liches ample protection from shooting. :)

And I wouldn't of course place them where I think they are safe, I would place them where they are safe. But by your reasoning, this seems like a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. I can't leave them in the units and I can't move them out. Perhaps you have a better suggestion? I'm extremely interested to hear it. :D

EvC
20-05-2007, 13:34
Well, that's exactly my point, and was the first (And only :p ) suggestion i've made: you can increase their personal protection within a unit by adding a Champion to any unit containing a Liche Priest. There's many skills that heroes can take to increase movement and charge and kill your Liche Priests, and your opponents will be happy to sacrifice their minor characters to kill your major ones...

Sanjuro
20-05-2007, 14:06
What good will a champion do me? I issue a challenge, and the enemy champion accepts it. The char is still free to hack up my lich!

You have to assume that the enemy will also have champions in his units if I have them. :)

As for the Nike Saurus and other similar lone heroes with super movement - you can see those coming a mile away. Also - they are huge crutches and I get to retain the moral high ground. :)

But I see your point. You are quite right. If I am tooling up my army versus specific opponents, champs will be prio 1 on my list versus Lizzies and others with M9 or better chars.

Sanjuro
25-05-2007, 22:20
All right, I've had my first two games with this list (versus Lizardmen) and I have to say I am quite pleased with the result. The first game was a minor win for me, the second was a massacre in my favour.

My catapults didn't do jack squat due to abysmal rolling on my part. Out of 15 artillery dice rolls, 10 were misfires, and I had one of my catapults blow up in turn 1, twice - I ain't kidding here! This and the fact that lizardmen didn't fail a single panic test in both games rendered my artillery (which I had kind of built the list around) more or less useless. Still, this was positive since it gave me a chance to practice in the absolute Worst Case Scenario.

The rest of the army worked as expected, tying up the enemy big hitters (namely a carnosaur in this case) and preventing them from scoring any real points. In game one, the carnosaur was busy most of the game with killing the skeleton bowmen and failed to complete until turn 5, which was too late for him to do anything else in the game. In game two, the carnosaur was tied up by the swarms and flanked by the ushabti, who killed the big lizard and eliminated the threat of a US5+ flanker (though they died in the process).

Tomb Scorpions are ACE! Ace, I tell you! I can see how Carrion can be useful versus certain armies (mainly those with war machines), but I am extremely reluctant to dropping a tomb scorp. My Ushabti are pretty kickass as well, so I ain't sure about what to do here really. I didn't use the Tunnelers rule (since there wasn't much point), but both scorps and tomb swarms were actually instrumental to my victory in both games. I am pretty satisfied with their performance. Skeletons are of course skeletons - not much to say here. They are made for hanging around, which they did.

I reckon that the amount of magic I've got in this list is pretty much minimum for a working Tomb Kings army. I faced 5 dispel dice and 2 scrolls (medium magic defense in other words), and I did have magic superiority, but without a High Lich priest I would probably have been up **** creek without a paddle. What are your experiences here, are a High Lich absolutely necessary for Tomb Kings? I just can't really see another working character setup. Well, maybe a Tomb King in a chariot and three mounted Liches in a really offensive kind of list, a list that moves up and gets in your face. But that's not this kind of army, and I am quite content with that. A nice change from my main army, Chaos.