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badgeraddict
19-05-2007, 20:05
Hey people, as my thread title stats I am in need of dire help fighting Dwarves!

I play Vampire Counts and have never...ever beaten them!

My opponent has never gone total gunline, even if he did i wouldn't mind due to Invocation of Nehek.

Still i've never beaten his units in combat, even warriors! This is due to the fact that every unit has a 'war banner' type rune and then there is the Battle Standard giving another +1 CR in a certain range. Oh and also he always, always makes his units immune to fear & terror. My big advantage *gone*.

We are having a 2500pt game tomorrow and I really need some sound advice in upping my chances of, well at least a draw.

Ok, I have;
2 vampires from each Bloodline (except Strigoi, I've 1)
2 Wight Lords (1 with Banner)
1 Wraith
3 Necromancers
22 Skellies with spears
46 Skellies with HW & Shield
63 Zombies
10 Dire Wolves
4 Bat Swarms
8 Black Knights (Empire conversions)
4 Fell Bats
3 Spirit Host
Black Coach
2 Banshees
1 Winged Nightmare

I am pondering getting Orges for rare choices, but they will probarly get shot straight away (at least that will delay my knights dying to shooting!)

So people, here is a me asking 'very nicely' for some help! :)

Falkman
19-05-2007, 20:15
Unless he puts lots of random crap runes together with those other two runes on his standards, I'd say his units are illegal.
You can't use the same combination of runes on more than one standard.

badgeraddict
19-05-2007, 20:18
Unless he puts lots of random crap runes together with those other two runes on his standards, I'd say his units are illegal.
You can't use the same combination of runes on more than one standard.


But say if he did 'Rune A & Rune B' on one unit, he could do 'Rune A & Rune C' on another and so forth?

Falkman
19-05-2007, 20:20
Yes he could, but seeing as there isn't that many different banner runes, and every unit can only take up to a certain point limit of them, the combinations aren't too many.

badgeraddict
19-05-2007, 20:23
Hmm, yeah. He only has 3 combat units.

Anyway the original question still stands.

Baragash
19-05-2007, 21:15
Can you give us a bit more clue to what he uses and what his tactics are...?

DV8
19-05-2007, 21:16
It is possible, and he doesn't need a lot of crap runes to do it. The possible units that can take runic banners are Longbeards, Hammerers, and Ironbreakers, all with 50 point limits.

Rune of Battle, Rune of Determination, 45 points. +1 CR, keeps the unit from running (very unlikely unless they lose combat by a HUGE amount.

Rune of Battle, Rune of Sanctuary, 40 points. +1 CR, confers Magic Resistance

Rune of Battle, Ancestor Rune, 35 points. +1 CR, potential to make a unit Stubborn.

And, of course, an Anvil using ancient power to make his units Immune Fear and Terror. Completely legal, and doable, albiet somewhat expensive (and risky, if he loses those banners)..

I can't really offer much in the way of Tactics, as I've only recently gotten into Fantasy (3 guesses which army I play :p ), but I will say be very careful with your spells because of Runes of Spelleating. He takes away your raise spells and you are, proverbiably, screwed.

If he's taking an Anvil, don't waste points on Banshees. He'll probably Rune of Wrath and Fury them to death on the first turn. I'd say take lots of quick units (wolves, knights, etc.) to close the gap quickly and deny him the opportunity to shoot/use his Anvil to his full advantage. That said though, with an Anvil you will be significantly slowed (as Rune of Wrath and Fury also halves your movement).


Dv8

Darkangeldentist
19-05-2007, 21:26
Well a little indication about the kind of army he takes would help concerning some units.

Normally I'd recommend graveguard but as you don't have any... Black knights. As wights they have great stats and killing blow, good against dwarven armour. All eight with a wight lord (maybe a battle standard) would make a good front line unit. Banner of the barrows makes them so much more reliable. (If you take the battle standard, another magic banner.)

To protect them Spirit hosts or dire wolves. Both can move quickly enough and can provide good protection from enemy fire. The wolves can happily take on war machine crews if he has any. Spirit host are better against quarreller and hand gunner units.

Ideally this should go on a flank with a centre based around several units of skeletons and zombies. If he only has 3 main combat units you can probably match this (numerically) with these cheap core units. If he spreads them then you'll have more trouble but you can still pull this kind of trick off.
It takes a while for even dwarfs to wear down a whole unit of skeletons so let or force him to charge these blocks and have the cavalry there to ride into their flank next turn.

A black coach is also worth a look. Make sure you take enough spell casting ability. A count and a master necromancer make a good base, with extra levels of course and maybe one more necromancer and then fighty characters. Wraiths aren't always worth it since their terror will be useless by the sound of it and they can't fight very well. However there is no better person to carry the cursed book and this should always be in an army facing dwarfs. Keep him and the main infantry blocks close together and he can bog down the whole battle. Whoever carries it try to maximise the number of combats it affects.

I've rattled on enough. Hope some of this helps.

badgeraddict
19-05-2007, 21:30
Can you give us a bit more clue to what he uses and what his tactics are...?


Yeah sure, he usually uses 3 or 4 combat units. Warriors, longbeards, Ironbreakers and Hammers. These are backed by a cannon, goblin hewer, organ gun, 10 thunderers and 10 crossbow dwarves. His general has shield bearers. He always goes with Hammers....ah he makes them immune to fear etc I think. Army Battle standard goes with either Ironbreakers or Longbeards. Other characters? Maybe a Master Engineer, or a Runesmith. He may take the anvil.

WLBjork
19-05-2007, 21:41
Banshees, Black Coaches and Spirit Hosts tend to be a bit "iffy" against Dwarfs, as they are vulnerable to the Dwarf Warmachines.

I think DV8 has the best idea - as it's only possible to use one rune at a time, force your opponent to choose between "Wrath and Ruin" and "Hearth and Hold" by including your fast units. A Vampire Lord with Bat Form (or on Winged Nightmare) whilst expensive would provide a useful backup to the Fast movers, especially if used to target the Runelord and Anvil. Later, the Lord can use his movement to join a unit or pick on enemy Warmachines.

Try and raise flank/rear units of Zombies with the Invocation - knocking out his rank bonus and gaining additional combat resolution will help even if he is still using "Hearth and Hold".

Finally give the Black Knights the 5+ Ward Save Banner (can't remember it's name) - it's the best for them.

Finally, at the end of the battle, get his army list and check it against the book. It could be you not remembering correctly, but you have suggested that he's not playing by the rules by giving every unit the equivalent of the War Banner.

Baragash
19-05-2007, 22:14
As an aside, the rune of +1 combat res is 25 points and the rune of immune to fear is 30 points, which means Hammerers, Iron breakers and Longbeards can carry only one or the other as their allowance is 50 points.

Dwarves are Dwarves at the end of the day, there is no reason why, if you load up on magic, you can't hit one end of the line with wolves in the front and knights in the side (so the knights are moving across the line), whilst throwing zombies at the rest of the line to keep them busy.

Oh, and raise units in front of the war machines and missile troops

Nell2ThaIzzay
19-05-2007, 23:31
I've played against 2 Dwarf opponents as Vampire Counts.

One has beaten me mercilessly quite a few times.

The other, I've had some more competetive games against, and I currently have a win streak against him.

The opponent that beat me completely ran gunlines, about 11-12 dispel dice, and an anvil. What blocks of infantry he did have didn't move, and I couldn't resummon my units due to his heavy magic defense, so by the time I got to his units, mine were worthless in combat.

The opponent I have beaten has used gunlines, has used Anvils, but I can beat him because he never really goes heavy on magic defense.

I don't know how heavy your opponents' magic defense is. But if he's not focusing on it, I say go Necrarch, beef up on magic, and just keep summoning stuff to the point that he can't handle it all. I defeated a Dwarf gunline through these methods before.

As for his tough blocks of infantry, well, I've had some epic battles with him, with his "stubborn on 10" units fighting against my unbreakable Skeletons, where those battles went on for an eternity, lol.

Grave Guard take care of that. The high toughness of Dwarves can be negated via Halberds, and the killing blow possibility can help to negate some of their armor saves.

Since Dwarves don't have massive amounts of units, you can even afford to beef up the Grave Guard regiment as I've done in the past with a Vampire Count and a Wight Lord in the front ranks. Those will help you to rack up some wounds to help you win that CR.

Those are just some of the tactics I've used to beat Dwarves in the past. Hopefully they may help you a bit.

Frankly
20-05-2007, 01:22
Remember that your other big advantages are that your immune to his ranged attack panicing your armylist and you can horde.

Usually dwarves are a good match up for VC, fear can course alot of problems for a dwarven battle lines if it looses combat ... he can't anti-fear his whole list.

Usually you want to close the gap between his guns and your armylist as soon as possible. B.knights, dire wolves and fell bats all do this realy well. against his army and looking at the amount of models you've got, I'd say your better off holding these units back and using them to support your ranka nd file troops.

If you can't rely on getting enough of these unit across the board and attacking then go magic heavy and horde it out. March out dropping down alot of summoning into your units already standing make them huge so when they can into combat they can grind it out.

It looks like he should have a small combat force with he's get alot of shooting and alot of runes.

Target H.gunners and war machines, target units that will let you over run and create chance to flank, thats the only real way to smack down high CR units.

Don't target elite units, especially with character in them. Look for the weak units first and get rid of all his support. through zombie at the elite units if they look like they're going to be trouble.

Personally I'd go for alot of magic and rely on horsing it out and flank attacking.

DV8
20-05-2007, 03:08
Finally, at the end of the battle, get his army list and check it against the book. It could be you not remembering correctly, but you have suggested that he's not playing by the rules by giving every unit the equivalent of the War Banner.

Remember that you can Rune up an item with up to 3 runes, provided that no one combination is repeated anywhere else in the army (with the exception of singular Runes of Stone). The Rune of Battle is a relatively cheap rune, and with half the other runes being 10 to 25 points, it is possible to give the equivalent of a War Banner to every unit, provided you don't have too many units (and you're paying more as you have to combine different runes on different banners).


As an aside, the rune of +1 combat res is 25 points and the rune of immune to fear is 30 points, which means Hammerers, Iron breakers and Longbeards can carry only one or the other as their allowance is 50 points.

You don't need the Rune of Immune Fear. Rune of Hearth and Hold, used on Ancient Power, extends that ability to potential multiple units. He only needs to use it on his main combat blocks.


Dwarves are Dwarves at the end of the day, there is no reason why, if you load up on magic, you can't hit one end of the line with wolves in the front and knights in the side (so the knights are moving across the line), whilst throwing zombies at the rest of the line to keep them busy.

Oh, and raise units in front of the war machines and missile troops

Like I mentioned before, be very careful because if he has multiple Runes of Spelleating, he has a 50% chance of taking away all your raise spells, leaving you with Magic Missiles and the like, which he'll probably shut down as well. (4 Dispel Dice for being a dwarf, 2 for the Runelord, 1 for the Anvil, plus more if he has Runesmiths).



Usually dwarves are a good match up for VC, fear can course alot of problems for a dwarven battle lines if it looses combat ... he can't anti-fear his whole list.

No, but he can anticipate which ones you will threaten and cast Rune of Hearth and Hold to make them immune.


If you can't rely on getting enough of these unit across the board and attacking then go magic heavy and horde it out. March out dropping down alot of summoning into your units already standing make them huge so when they can into combat they can grind it out.

...

Personally I'd go for alot of magic and rely on horsing it out and flank attacking.

I wouldn't even rely on magic. As I've mentioned, a couple of good rolls with the Spelleating Rune will leave you unable to bolster your numbers for the rest of the game.

I would say take lots of cheap, fast units. Lots of Dire Wolf units, Knights, Fell Bats. He can only attack up to 3 units with his Anvil (on Ancient Power) using Rune of Wrath and Fury, so he can't possibly stop them all. Zerg-rush him ('scuse the term) and pray that you can overwhelm him in a single turn.


DV8

WLBjork
20-05-2007, 08:30
Remember that you can Rune up an item with up to 3 runes, provided that no one combination is repeated anywhere else in the army (with the exception of singular Runes of Stone). The Rune of Battle is a relatively cheap rune, and with half the other runes being 10 to 25 points, it is possible to give the equivalent of a War Banner to every unit, provided you don't have too many units (and you're paying more as you have to combine different runes on different banners).

I was refering to the bit where he said every unit - if literally every unit has the Rune of Battle, then the OPs opponent is definately breaking the rules. Remember only 3 Infantry types get magic banners. The BSB can add another, along with the Master Rune of Stromni Redbeard, but there's no way all units can get it, hence my comment either the OP was mis-stating or the OPs opponent is breaking the rules.

badgeraddict
20-05-2007, 09:03
Nice advice.

Was flicking through my rulebook *like you do* and his previous army list fell out! Bonus! This is what he took last battle;

Dwarf Lord
Rune of Stone
Rune of Resistance
Master Rune of Kragg the Grim
Rune of Fury x2
Shield bearers.

Thane
Battle standard
Stromni Redbeard rune (?)
Rune of Battle

Dragon Slayer
Skaven Slayer skill

Goblin Hewer

Slayers, 8 Troll & 1 Giant

Warriors x 20 FC

Hammerers x 19 FC, Rune of Battle

Longbeards x 20 FC Rune of Courage

Ironbreakers x 20 FC Rune of Courage

Crossbow dwarves x10 Shields, GW's

Thunderers x 10 Shields

Cannon Rune of Forging (?) Engineer with Handgun

Organ Gun

WLBjork
20-05-2007, 18:09
Oops! The Slayer Skills can only be taken in a pure Slayer Army and are not valid in a regular Dwarf Army (unless you have agreed otherwise of course). Looks like he has been a little creative with his list.

Looks a bit small, even for 2K though...

DV8
20-05-2007, 20:56
His Longbeards and Ironbreakers are also violating the Rune Rules by having only the Rune of Courage on them. He needs to have another Rune on either of the banners.

His Lord is going to go with the Hammerers. I wouldn't worry about this unit, as it is relatively slow (M3, which you can't march block), so focus on the other units first.

He doesn't appear to have any Spelleating Runes (or indeed, any Spellbreaking Runes), so you should be able to get a fair amount of spells off if you go magic heavy (assuming he hasn't changed his list).

I'd still recommend the same basic strategy. Lots of quick units to close the gap, and I'd say go for Black Knights. Banshees will work wonders (a pair for sure, just don't let them get tied down in combat).


DV8

Bombot
20-05-2007, 23:02
His Longbeards and Ironbreakers are also violating the Rune Rules by having only the Rune of Courage on them. He needs to have another Rune on either of the banners.DV8

As well as being illegal, it's my opinion that it is poor form to tailor an army to the opponent to this extent.

DV8
21-05-2007, 01:28
You mean poor form for the Dwarf player, or for the Vampire Count?

I am not an advocate of tailoring either, but if a person has trouble against a certain army type (i.e. Dwarfs), would it not make sense to tweak a list to be more effective against that list, without hindering your overall effectiveness?

It's not like we're telling him to take such and such units and so and so combos to counter said list, we're merely recommending unit types and a strategic mind-set.

For example, not relying to heavily on being able to raise units as the Runes of Spelleating can destroy those, leaving you with nothing if your entire strategy relied soley on raising to bolster your army and distract your enemy.

I think the point here is not to create an exact list for him to field against his opponent, but more to suggest how he should write his list to be more effective against Dwarfs overall.


DV8

badgeraddict
21-05-2007, 08:53
Right, had the battle and I scraped a draw! Thats good enough for me!

I used the Necrach bloodline, used large units of zombies & skeletons backed by banshee's, wolves & spirit host. I kept my units fairly tight together with wolves and banshees on either side.

He did take an anvil....the special character anvil. but it was largely useless.

The Banshee's murdered more Dwarves than I thought possible! LOL that was amusing. The point where I managed the draw was when my General murdered his Battle Standard Bearer and broke that unit, also at the same time a unit of zombies broke & ran down ironbreakers.....ahhh good times.

At the end of the game (2500pts) There was a point difference of 263 to him, which meant a draw.

Cheers for your help!

Bombot
21-05-2007, 09:33
You mean poor form for the Dwarf player, or for the Vampire Count?

I am not an advocate of tailoring either, but if a person has trouble against a certain army type (i.e. Dwarfs), would it not make sense to tweak a list to be more effective against that list, without hindering your overall effectiveness?
DV8

Oh no, I meant what the Dwarf player was doing was poor form. Going far out of your way to nulify a specific opponent's main strength is out of order, if you ask me. That's what the Dwarf player has done by taking all those Runes of Courage. It's also illegal, so that specfic point is somewhat moot, but I hope you get the idea.

DV8
21-05-2007, 16:34
Aye the Rune of Courage is not exactly fair play, especially taken in that context (knowing you'll be facing lots of fear causing units like Undead), but stuff like Spelleating Runes, or an Anvil are. Heck, my friend has 2 Runes in his list, and that's "just in case".

And congrats on the draw! I'm surprised he didn't target those banshees first turn with Thorek (the Anvil's no LoS no range limit Rune of Wrath and Fury should've obliterated them), but good for you!


DV8

Baron Von Rotten
22-05-2007, 03:20
3 guys in my group play Dwarves. So, I play against Stunties almost every week. It is always the same thing with these guys. In my experience, most Dwarf players are not very good generals. They will usually let you (the opponent) dictate the action, for fear of making a mistake. For example, the standard battle plan for Dwarves is to mainly sit back, shoot, and hope that you will break against their rock-hard infantry. Wow, it takes alot of strategy to come up with that kind of ingenious plan....... A monkey could win with dwarves. Seriously. Thank You Gav.

Dwarves have one weakness: speed. Use that to your advantage. I am not talking about dire wolves, or Black Coaches. Both of these are too easily destroyed with dwarven black powder. I am talking about the 18 inch movement of Invocation.

My advice to you is have alot of magic ready to go. A vampire and 3 necromancers should do the trick. Take as many bound spell items (Book, Staff, etc) as possible and don't forget about the Black Periapt. Your main focus should be to take out his artillery first. Most Dwarf players freak out, when they lose an Organ gun on the first turn. You can accomplish this by raising skellies and Van Hels' Dancing them into the annoying Organ Gun. Once this is done, take out any remaining artillery/handgunners. This will allow you to focus on raising Skellies in areas that make the stunty uncomfortable. For example: behind, or on the side of units. However, don't be in a hurry to engage your opponent. If he has no artillery left, you play with him like a cat plays with a mouse. You must wait for the right time! Your crappy troops are no match for his elite fighters in a fair fight. You must win this fight by playing dirty. You can accomplish this by hitting his units simultaineously in the front and flank/rear. Dwarves without a rank bonus is good news for all involved. It is also a 4 point swing in combat Rez! If you can, make sure that your units are outnumbering his, because of your fear-causing, he will automatically have to role insane courage to stick around, if he loses combat.



Dwarf Blood is not very tasty
BVR

Frankly
22-05-2007, 07:47
3 guys in my group play Dwarves. So, I play against Stunties almost every week. It is always the same thing with these guys. In my experience, most Dwarf players are not very good generals. They will usually let you (the opponent) dictate the action, for fear of making a mistake. For example, the standard battle plan for Dwarves is to mainly sit back, shoot, and hope that you will break against their rock-hard infantry. Wow, it takes alot of strategy to come up with that kind of ingenious plan....... A monkey could win with dwarves. Seriously. Thank You Gav.

Dwarves have one weakness: speed. Use that to your advantage. I am not talking about dire wolves, or Black Coaches. Both of these are too easily destroyed with dwarven black powder. I am talking about the 18 inch movement of Invocation.



LOL.

Buddy, I think you should play better dwarf players.

First of all dwarf lists should dictate everything, from the outset of deployment, through to the opponents last movement phase, everything in a good dwarf list should be there for negating options for the opponent.

The problem is not that there aren't good dwarf generals out there, it just takes a bit longer for players to get used to a dwarf army, they're not an easy army to play. You have to build a list that works on controlling the opponent, lots of forethought and TAKING CHARGES. This means less fluff in the armylist and more unattractive options, which is hard to do with dwarfs since they have such a fluffy armybook.

The fact of the matter is that any "monkey" can make an army that can charge well, but its a whole different ball game to make a list that can take charges and stay in combat.

Dwarfs are changing, the armybook has been out for a while and players(including myself) are realising that you can really do a whole lot more with stunties, the anvil, miners, runes and troops selection gives alot of strng options to run different lists.

Bombot
22-05-2007, 08:06
You have to build a list that works on controlling the opponent, lots of forethought and TAKING CHARGES.

A quick scan through the banner runes shows that there are a couple or so designed just to help do that.

But if a dwarf player is intent on shooting his opponents' troops to bits before they reach his then he'll probably overlook them.

Frankly
22-05-2007, 11:35
But if a dwarf player is intent on shooting his opponents' troops to bits before they reach his then he'll probably overlook them.


And with a few games under his belt, most players hopefully find out two things, shooting won't win games tough and there are more to dwarfs than shooting... well hopefully the player finds out.


These forums are a good example of that, months ago everyone was talking about MWs and Xbows or gunners, now all the talks about anvils and miners, so these is a shift in thought about the dwarfs already.

badgeraddict
22-05-2007, 21:12
He's a nice chap really!

Bombot
22-05-2007, 21:41
Oh I'm sure he doesn't mean to do anything wrong and my opinion on tailored army lists is just that - an opinion. It's not against the rules. It's just that I feel that Warhammer gets a bit funny if one starts making a list ideally suited to the opponent, as some armies are far more capable of this than others. I think it's far better that one designs a list suited to taking on allcomers as this keeps in check some of the units and equipment which may be much more valuable against specific lists.

badgeraddict
22-05-2007, 21:47
I see your point, heh I'm guilty of that. Whilst playing my Bretonnians vs Woodelfs, all my damsels suddenly show up with Lore of Life....strange ladies!

The Poisoned Dwarf
22-05-2007, 21:53
Heya. Thanks, I am a nice chap.

right. to set the story straight. The layer skill, pre battle I said, can I use slayer skills, said what I would be using and showed the rule. then got the ok.

A problem with rules ... when making the army I put rune of courage on all units but I always add other runes such as an ancestor rune or two or rune of determination. I have never mixed the rune of courage and battle together. And i would like to add that this isn't brainless tactics, i have to spend about 200+ points on runes to make the 4 or so units immune to fear and terror, without this due to the sheer number of skeletons and zombies that literally can come from all around means that it is ever so annoying when you kill about 8 zombies and take no casualties but due to being attacked from behind and the flank you have a draw then one musically able zombie means that you loose combat and need double 1 is sooooo annoying that i would like my 4 or 5 units to be able to stand a chance. Saying I cant use the rune of courage is like me saying you cant use invocation on nehek fair? another thing is. Also I would like to say that I rarely if ever take gun lines. I hate playing gun lines because its boring. Also as noticed I have absolutely no magic defence, this is due to me trying to balance the whole fear. and I would like to add that the anvil cannot target banshees due to the anvil specail rule cannot target characters unless they or their mount is a large target means that they could roam free.

in a 2000/2500 sze battle i tend to have 5 or 6 combat units. I tend to face about 8 units. 2 of these tend to be units of 25 - 30 zombies.

Also yes I have made the list for combatting VC but Badger knew he would be fighting dwarfs and knows the list so is easily able to build tactics against it. I mean, it would be silly for him to make a generic list when he knows he is fighting dawrfs and walk into a battle with 2 dispel scrolls which i have seen done!

badgeraddict
22-05-2007, 22:00
then one musically able zombie means that you loose combat and need double 1 is sooooo annoying

Hehehehe that zombie was my 'corpse' of the game!


Also yes I have made the list for combatting VC but Badger knew he would be fighting dwarfs and knows the list so is easily able to build tactics against it. I mean, it would be silly for him to make a generic list when he knows he is fighting dawrfs and walk into a battle with 2 dispel scrolls which i have seen done!

Touche!

Baron Von Rotten
23-05-2007, 08:04
"The problem is not that there aren't good dwarf generals out there, it just takes a bit longer for players to get used to a dwarf army, they're not an easy army to play. You have to build a list that works on controlling the opponent, lots of forethought and TAKING CHARGES. This means less fluff in the armylist and more unattractive options, which is hard to do with dwarfs since they have such a fluffy armybook."

This is a Crock of Shiite! I can't remember the last time a Dwarf player controlled a game. They move too slow to dictate the tempo of the game. Besides, The Dwarf army is DESIGNED to take charges! They have the best troops available for the points. In a Heads up fight, the dwarf infantry will be victorious over most opponents, most of the time. And if they lose, they will rally on the next turn, with their high leadership. The only way to crack that Turtle shell is to hit the stuntys in the flanks.....

Secondly, The Dwarves can build their army to be exactly what they want, using their Runes. Sadly, If a Dwarf player knows the opposing army beforehand, he can Custom-build his defenses and tailor them to their opponent. This will negate the opponent's advantages. How difficult is it to negate the fear-causing effects of the VC, if you put a Rune of Courage on each unit. (See the Original and above mentioned posts). This tactic is Cheesy and doesn't require much thought.

BVR

Frankly
23-05-2007, 10:53
This is a Crock of Shiite! I can't remember the last time a Dwarf player controlled a game. They move too slow to dictate the tempo of the game.

Like I said perhaps you should look at playing better dwarf players.

LOL. Honestly I don't think you know what your on about.

Who says that dwarfs armies control the game within THEIR movement phase ... just you. Which is the wrong way to look at combat or game control. Start with looking at deployment, look at magic phase negating, look at targeting, then look and countering charges and when you look at this, your unit movement doesn't have to be huge 6 inches will do to close up shop and get agressive defensive, wheeling, pivoting into flank charge counting position, giving your opponant no over run options, no good combined charges, eveing looking at flee re-actions. This doesn't take alot of table area and movement.

The name of the control game for dwarfs is negating, negating your opponent and creating an environment that you've given him to play in. A few example, outshoot him to make in come to you, castle hard into a corner so he has to condense his army, negate his magic phase with good anti-magic, high Ld helps with panic, use gyros to not just negate marches, but stagnate your opponents battle line so you face it piecemeal. Use the shooting phase to deplete threats making the target a non-threaten unit taking key charging choices away from the opponent(this is a huge area where alot of dwarf player get it wrong imo).

And then you have a lot of game winning tricks up your sleave, miners, the anvil, runes that make units charge your unit, runes the stop units charging, +CR runes, fear runes + double unit strength runes(found that one out on these forums.

Honestly, I love playing against solid dwarf lists, veteran players that can get the most out of the army book will give you the best thought provoking games, because you sit there can go ... "crap what am I going to do" and you really have to start looking for good charge options or your not going to win combat. I've actually started playing dwarfs because I love watching all that forethought in action, right from the outset of deployment your looking to shut down your opponents options, really really defensive play is something new to me and its fun to be a part of.


Ohhhh sorry for hijaking the thread guys!

Baron Von Rotten
23-05-2007, 20:30
Frankly,

Most of the dwarf armies I play against do exactly what you are saying: Hide in a corner and shoot (brilliant, I know). It is the same strategy over and over. Dwarves are unaccustomed to change. They win their battles because their army can be tailored to fight just about anyone. Rarely have I lost a game, because I was outmatched on the battlefield by a Dwarf General.

So, I guess that we will agree to disagree.

Just remember one thing, ya stubborn dwarf: I will beat your short-legged, stunty-lovin' ass in a 40-yard dash.

Later,
BVR

Frankly
24-05-2007, 07:44
So, I guess that we will agree to disagree.

Just remember one thing, ya stubborn dwarf: I will beat your short-legged, stunty-lovin' ass in a 40-yard dash.

Later,
BVR

:D :D :D yeah later

jimthegray
24-05-2007, 19:35
Hey people, as my thread title stats I am in need of dire help fighting Dwarves!

I play Vampire Counts and have never...ever beaten them!

My opponent has never gone total gunline, even if he did i wouldn't mind due to Invocation of Nehek.

Still i've never beaten his units in combat, even warriors! This is due to the fact that every unit has a 'war banner' type rune and then there is the Battle Standard giving another +1 CR in a certain range. Oh and also he always, always makes his units immune to fear & terror. My big advantage *gone*.

We are having a 2500pt game tomorrow and I really need some sound advice in upping my chances of, well at least a draw.

Ok, I have;
2 vampires from each Bloodline (except Strigoi, I've 1)
2 Wight Lords (1 with Banner)
1 Wraith
3 Necromancers
22 Skellies with spears
46 Skellies with HW & Shield
63 Zombies
10 Dire Wolves
4 Bat Swarms
8 Black Knights (Empire conversions)
4 Fell Bats
3 Spirit Host
Black Coach
2 Banshees
1 Winged Nightmare

I am pondering getting Orges for rare choices, but they will probarly get shot straight away (at least that will delay my knights dying to shooting!)

So people, here is a me asking 'very nicely' for some help! :)


i go grave gaurd and black knight heavy, you would be amazed what wights with the banner of barrows can do.
maybe proxy in a few of those and see how you do.

diehard0123
25-05-2007, 02:57
Hey people, as my thread title stats I am in need of dire help fighting Dwarves!

I play Vampire Counts and have never...ever beaten them!

My opponent has never gone total gunline, even if he did i wouldn't mind due to Invocation of Nehek.

Still i've never beaten his units in combat, even warriors! This is due to the fact that every unit has a 'war banner' type rune and then there is the Battle Standard giving another +1 CR in a certain range. Oh and also he always, always makes his units immune to fear & terror. My big advantage *gone*.

We are having a 2500pt game tomorrow and I really need some sound advice in upping my chances of, well at least a draw.

Ok, I have;
2 vampires from each Bloodline (except Strigoi, I've 1)
2 Wight Lords (1 with Banner)
1 Wraith
3 Necromancers
22 Skellies with spears
46 Skellies with HW & Shield
63 Zombies
10 Dire Wolves
4 Bat Swarms
8 Black Knights (Empire conversions)
4 Fell Bats
3 Spirit Host
Black Coach
2 Banshees
1 Winged Nightmare

I am pondering getting Orges for rare choices, but they will probarly get shot straight away (at least that will delay my knights dying to shooting!)

So people, here is a me asking 'very nicely' for some help! :)

Drop your dire wolves, fell bats, bat swarms and black coach. Use only one vamp max and only use about 2 necoros and go heavy on the zombies, Skellies and add the grave gaurd like the poster above mentioned. Place your vamp in with your grave gaurd and a necros in with a unit of zombies and skellies. overpower and outnumber those dwarfs and that should help you. What are you using for bound items? It does sound like your friend is not using his runes correctly. As a guy who almost always plays dwarfs against VC I know what it takes to beat a solid dwarf army.

Nkari
25-05-2007, 09:19
Rule nr 1 when it comes to battlestandards.. Kill them ASAP, and if they have a magic banner they cant have magic armour, that means at the very best a 4+ save.. wich your vampire will munch throu very fast..

And since you do that combat first, the rest of the army looses +1 combat rez.

Else just bring big blocks of infantry.. with 1-2 units of 5-6 wight cav.. but since you only got 8 of them use 6 of them, 10 direwolves, and 4 fellbats..

1 vampire count (+1 combat rez, 18" able to march thingie), 1 vampire BSB with flayed hauberk and sword of might, Necro with book of arkhan, necro with the "strike first spell" bound..

Name of the game is to concentrate your force on 1-2 units of his, while keeping the rest locked down.. (this is btw a generic list not tailored to beat just the dwarfs..)

T10
25-05-2007, 09:27
Against a total gunline army I suggest you do this:

1) Buy the most expensive units and characters available to you in order to create a force that is small and hard-hitting.

2) Ensure that there is terrain available. Deploy in cover.

3) Let him take the first round. Hide and WAIT until there is one or two rounds remaining, then send units to contest his table quarters.

This approach is going to be incredibly boring, but at least both will suffer and not just you!

There are a number of things you can do to improve your odds. One approach is to take a lot of von Carstein Vampires and use the Summon Wolves power in your last turn. If you take three Vampires with the power you have pretty good odds of getting at least one unit large enough to contest a table quarter!

You can keep a unit of Spirit Hosts in a building or forest (preferably out of sight) and sweep them across the middle line as the game draws to a close.

With regards to magic, there is, really only one good appraoch. While you wait, you want to draw out those Spellbreaker runes! That means casting spells that a) your opponent absolutly does not want to allow and b) cast at such a high value that it is too risky to rely on dispel dice. Any magic phase where your opponent has spent a Spellbreaker rune and has dispel dice remaining is a good magic phase! At best you should be able to raise a few units in his quarters on your last turn.

You will need to deal with any units that break off from the main line and attempt to contest *your* quarters, or you can pretty much forget about scoring even a minor win.

Well, that's it for my part.

-T10