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Storm Ghost
21-05-2007, 03:11
I have been playing for quite a while now and I collect Black Templars. I have had around 20 odd matches and out of those 20 I have only won 5 max! I love the whole modelling and painting, I find it very enjoyable and the whole collecting thing is great, So I was thinking, should I stop gamming and just go collecting painting e.t.c

I carn't see what I'am doing wrong, I'am Black Templars, My whole Black Templars Force is Close Combat, so all I do is Run at the oppenent as fast as possible and stay in cover as well as possible.

I think it is something to do with the dice.... They don't like me. The Dice God Spits on me. Its "O.K I have terminator armour, I have a 2+ armour save I can do this I only need a 2+... (rolls dice, and one appears) O.K that was just bad luck" Oppenet says "you got to make a LD test now you are below 50%" I say " O.K I definatly can do this I have my commander making it LD10 I cannot fail this" (rolls dice and 11 pops up, I turn to the wall and smack my head across it).

This isn't the first time this has happened no,no this has basically done this in every match.... I think I should just shove the dice up my oppents ass where the Sun don't shine

Blue Bacchus
21-05-2007, 03:23
Been playing for about two years now against the same damn Khorne army and out of 100 some odd games I've drawn a half dozen times and won twice.

Don't give up, every dog has his day.

Anvils Hammer
21-05-2007, 03:25
ask yourself this.. what is it about losing that irritates you? would you actual enjoy games more if you won? I guess so, but do you activly dislike losing?
Im defiantly more of a painter and converted, and winning for me is secondary to having a great painted army. evenif you lose fairly regularly, you can take pride in the fact that you army is painted to a high standard.

dont stop gaming completly, just learn to take as much satisfactoin from the rest of the hobby as you do from winning a game.
cheers mate, and good luck winning!

MysteryGilgamesh
21-05-2007, 03:26
Don't give up. My dice luck is horrible too. Just got back into the game after years, and I'm 1w/2l so far, not once getting 1st turn, nor my Terminators surviving a single game yet, nor my Landspeeder getting off a single shot despite lasting 3 turns because I keep forgetting about it.

Still, don't despair, evaluate your list and playstyle, and keep on trucking (and maybe change your dice, try keeping a large stack of them on hand, and ditching any that roll below 3 consistently, weeding out the bad luck dice).

Storm Ghost
21-05-2007, 03:40
(and maybe change your dice, try keeping a large stack of them on hand, and ditching any that roll below 3 consistently, weeding out the bad luck dice).

LoL I have tried that before, now you mention it, I seem to remember having no dice left...

deathwing_marine
21-05-2007, 03:52
I know how you feel. Ive always had pretty good luck, but ive just hit a horrible slump where i cant get anything done.

Rended a Land Raider, yeah! 2+ to cause damage! Oh guess what, I got a one.

2+ armor save! Easy, right? Nope, another 1.

Mostly I just havent been able to get rid of tanks, but thats extremely frustrating.

It might also be time for a new army though.

sabre4190
21-05-2007, 03:58
Well, sometimes you do just get bad luck. Every once in a while people seem to get more or less of it. I played a game last month with my tau where my blood angel opponent passed 40/40 saves with his assault marines that were a little too close for comfort. Next turn, 5 kroot mauled the squad (and i mean mauled. They killed the remaining 8 like 2 times over!).

So back to you. Youve won 5 out of 20 games. Whatever you may think of it, thats not a bad ratio. Not everyone can have a winning record, since thats algebraically impossible.

But enough of the cheering up. You want to win, which is a natural feeling. And hey thats part of the game. So, post your lists up here. Tell us what other people use. Im sure the black templar vets would love to give you some advice. Trying new stuff is the way to find a combination that works well and is fun to use at the same time.

Laughingmonk
21-05-2007, 04:18
No-one can help you win better but yourself. Perhaps post your list and type terrain, mission, and enemy involved, and we could give you some advice.

Also, take a look at sephiroth's tactica. It has a few good tips you may find use too.

Study the rulebook, a player who knows the rulebook can use the game mechanics to their advantage.

As far as what you get out of the game, that's on you.

But the best thing you could do? Play cities of death. Seriously, it will make your games alot more enjoyable (and even, too). Not to mention the fact that building the stratagem peices and buildings from scratch will expose you to a whole new aspect of the hobby.

cailus
21-05-2007, 04:28
5 out of 20 is not bad. Look at my ratio - it's only 29%. But I still play and I always enjoy it unless it's against cheaty powergaming gits. :p

Storm Ghost
21-05-2007, 04:32
Right here are my armt lists. I have two because at the moment the club is in this 500pts turni. heres the 500pts BT army :

HQ
Marshal-80pts-140pts
Artificer armour
Holy orb of Antioch
storm bolter
master crafted power weapon

Troops
Crusader Squad, 8 men all with close combat weapons and bolt pistols-144pts
power weapon

Crusader Squad, 6 men-112pts
plasma gun, missile launcher

Elites
Dreadnought-105pts

The marshall goes into the 8 man crusader squad. Now here is the 1000pts BT army

HQ
Marshal-80pts-140pts
Artificer armour
Holy orb of Antioch
storm bolter
master crafted power weapon

Emperors Champion-90pts-125pts
Suffer not the Unclean to live

Troops
Crusader Squad, 8 men all with close combat weapons and bolt pistols-144pts
power weapon

Crusader Squad, 6 men-112pts
plasma gun, missile launcher

Elites
Dreadnought-105pts

Sword Brethren squad, 5 men-95pts-135pts
lighting claws and power weapon, Infiltate

Terminator Squad, 5 men-200pts-250pts
2 assult cannons 2 chainfists

Well, here are the lists, now it is your job to find out how crap they are, or, are they good and I just have crap luck with the (F&*$^!) dice....

-EDIT-
thats the point, thats how crap I'am, I do play Cities of Death, there is loads of cover on a Cities of Death board but for some reason I still get shot to kingdom Kum. Our club is mainly made up of Space Marines and then their are the few others like Eldar, Tau and one Chaos player...

the blind knight
21-05-2007, 04:35
YOU WANA GIVE UP!!!!!!I have never won a match in TWO years

Storm Ghost
21-05-2007, 04:43
YOU WANA GIVE UP!!!!!!I have never won a match in TWO years

one word, ouch!

x-esiv-4c
21-05-2007, 04:44
play against me mate, you'll feel better.

Reaver83
21-05-2007, 05:50
Well winning is nice, but a well fought loss is just as satisfying!

Best thing to do when things aren't working is to do something completely unexpected (with khorne bezerkers this is near impossible).

Do this as a) you may discover a new trick and b)it'll unbalance the enemy.

Just remember though no plan survives contact with the enemy - therefore initiate the contact and take the initiative!

Or just use weighted dice

Spamus Eatus
21-05-2007, 05:53
I don't have a BT codex, but my first bit of advice would be to try spend a few less points on your HQ. In a larger game, he's fine, but in 500 pts, you'll find more bodies will help.

For the 1000 pt list, I might be inclined to go without the sword bretheren, and buy another crusader squad, or pump up the existing ones.

Since you have a few less men than other marine armies of similar pts, I would suggest a "refused flank" deployment. Keep your boys close together to provide mutual support. That's not to say keep them packed and vulnerable to blasts, but make it so that the opponent can't engage one squad without being threatend by another.

SisterMordagg
21-05-2007, 06:45
Also, there is a thread somewhere about that the GW dice roll terribly.

Maybe invest some cash in casino dice? Should eliminate some ones.

KITS AND BITS
21-05-2007, 06:48
Looking at your army lists i think you haev fallen prey to the pretty model syndrome that we arty types do , your army is pretty but lacks punch ,your playing low point games (in my eyes) and some of your choices shouldtnt be on the feild at 500 to 1000 points .plus if you want to do close combat you have to get to close combat and i dont see any transport in your list ?that wont help

Nurglitch
21-05-2007, 06:51
Maybe you're not a particularly good player. Maybe you're just playing in a particularly deep pond. I suggest following good advice already provided in this thread and have a gander at the rulebook. You might notice what's going wrong.

AMBS
21-05-2007, 06:59
We all go through this phase from time to time. I went through it heavily a few years back.

Basically, whoever I played handed my **** to me time and again. I was then trained up by a group of players in central london (the old CLWC) and quickly understood the game and how it all works.

Mobility and firepower play a massive part in this game, so Black Templars aren't going to be all that hot, period.

If you want to talk in depth, feel free to PM me.

Dark Apostle197
21-05-2007, 07:10
Yeah, you may want to try a new army. Any army that can reliably put out lots of fire and stay on the move is one of the best type of armies to play. If that isn't an option, I would still suggest playing.

I don't really hate losing. If I see I made a mistake I try not to make it again. I do hate when I lose because of bad dice rolls. Around my area I am pretty much known as one of those guys with just terrible luck.

I still have a pretty good win/loss record though(stopped keeping track). Just keep playing and you'll get used to it. It is fun when you still win with bad dice rolls. My friend calls it a dramatic comeback. It feels good. Especially when some one walks up to the table and goes "what? He(meaning me) is winning? He has terrible dice rolls" :)

Just keep playing. BTs are one of those hard armies to play.

Good luck.

hush88
21-05-2007, 07:29
Hate to sound corny, but winning isn't everything.

I have just started 40K for coming up to 7 months. When i first started, I did not win for a consecutive 10 games, after which i did win a game or 2, only to find out that a "senior" who was teaching me 40K, "gave" the wins to me because he was worried that i might give up. Including those "wins" and following loses, it was about game 15 that i won my first game. 5 out of 20? i take that anytime.

However, when i did beat other players, it was fantastic, especially when it is a close game. It actual fact, the closer is the margin, the more enjoyable the game. Sometimes losing can also be quite fun, especially when you can make your opponent squrim with nerves.:evilgrin: Imagine, first turn, Ravenwing bikes scout and deathwing assault a 5 men LC armed squad + Terminator Chaplain.:skull: Lost that game, but made my opponent pulled his hair out for 3 turns until he managed to disengaged his Iron Warriors from my terminators.

Other days, the Dice God is just not there, 12 las cannon shot, 3 hits, 1 wound,:wtf: , definitely not buying lottery tickets that week.


Just chill and enjoy the game.

AMBS
21-05-2007, 07:40
Yeah, you may want to try a new army. Any army that can reliably put out lots of fire and stay on the move is one of the best type of armies to play. If that isn't an option, I would still suggest playing.

A second army is always a good choice, because it gives you a break from your main army and stops things from getting repetitive.

If you choose a second army, make sure it's totally different from your first one. So if your first army is close combat heavy, your second army should be shooty.

IAMNOTHERE
21-05-2007, 07:43
The most obvious thng missing from your list is a good fire base.

Now BT arn't known for sitting still with heavy weapons and devastators wouldn't be fluffy for you any way.

What you need is fire power, for about a hundred points you can get 6 S5 shots and 2 S7 shots that can move and fire every turn and will scare people after they've taken some hits from it. I'm talking the predator destructor one of the best tanks in the game points wise.

In 1500 pts, don't be afraid of taking 3 as fire support to your army,as its the only decent weight of fire i could see in your list.

Oh, do you play missions?

Stella Cadente
21-05-2007, 07:45
wait, only 20 matches, sod that, I've played for 13yrs and won about 10 times, thats it, and that over 100 games, last time I counted it was about 500+ games, and I only remember 10 wins, and I'm only giving up cus its too exspensive

AngryAngel
21-05-2007, 07:50
Despite people saying all armies are created equal, they most definatly are not so. Hell at this point not even all space marines are created equal.

I can't tell ya how to win without actually viewing the games in question. Though I can tell you how you can make sure..dice aside you always win. That is always try and have fun. Be live, be exciting during the game. Roll the dice like ya mean it. Make it seem more exciting then it is..and just do whats exciting.

Hell if nothing else perhaps you'll make the game interesting to watch, and if other people are there, they'll enjoy seeing it. Perhaps the kudos then will make ya feel like a winner.

Bottom line, we always would like to win, though ya can't always win. Especially in something like this where luck can be a deciding factor. Though ya can always feel like a winner if you do your best and always have fun with it.

Ianos
21-05-2007, 08:16
You don't have to give up gaming and definately don't have to give up your Black Templars. The reason being that with the list you are fielding 5/20 win ratio is either a true miracle or you are a very good general especially since i recon you are not a veteran player.

So as you are take your list to the tactics section and get some advice. I can guarantee you that after you change your list you are going to get at least 50/50 win/loss ratio and thats pesimistic!

Good luck from now on and see you on tactics :D

LoerdofallJoy
21-05-2007, 08:45
Quit your jibber-jabber and get some nuts!

Winning isn't everything, learning from your mistakes, applying these & getting closer & closer is the fun bit. I rarely win, I have themes I like my armies to run, this generally doesn't make them very effective, but I learn (over a long time) how to use/ get round the problems. It makes not losing horribly so sweet!

Go onto the boards here, into tactics & army lists. Read what other people say & do, ask questions, learn from the reponses. There's nothing worse than someone who won't learn from mistakes then displays your (honestly, understandable) position.

And - the dice are random, they swing, we all have periods of good & bad dice, you just have to swing with ones as well as the sixes!

LoaJ

Coasty
21-05-2007, 08:54
Change to Orks and bury your opponent alive under tonnes of littlee black and red cubes... you might not win, but the facial expressions are worth it.

Bloody12th
21-05-2007, 09:09
My win ratio is pretty poor also (though I haven't played for ages- for reasons unrelated). I think I've won maybe four games max with my current army.

My luck is also quite odd. I get sustained periods of bad luck, broken by brilliant flashes of amazing good fortune. Those moments make up for the fluffed rolls because they are so special.

Probably the reason I lose (lost) so much is that I stick to the fluff, rather than min-max and go all-out to win. The local gamers also include some guys who are tough opponents, so every game is hard fought. This makes every win or draw greatly more enjoyable - I guess it's all a question of perspective.

One thing I find that helps with dice rolling is to pick up dice that failed to hit and use them to roll for wounds etc. Technically it shouldn't make a difference, but it seems to - the dice can only have so much bad mojo stored in them....:D

Baneboss
21-05-2007, 09:17
Just make a break.

the blind knight
21-05-2007, 10:49
I know wining isnt everything but i would like to win just once.Is that to much to ask.I would like to roll TWO 6 in 20 dices.Is that to much to ask.The good side is that i NEVER ever failed any kind of leadership test

AMBS
21-05-2007, 11:20
LoerdofallJoy -
Quit your jibber-jabber and get some nuts!

*Applause* :D

Morris
21-05-2007, 11:25
Quit your jibber-jabber and get some nuts!



Word Crazy foool.


You need Rhinos, transports of some description for your Templars. They are one of these armis that you have to be VERY careful with how you play.

trigger
21-05-2007, 11:42
try balancing your army out a bit,
i used to do the same with my wolves then one day we swaped armies 4 the day , needles to say my wolves got butcherd in the first game then the person useing them asked if he could change the list, he went on to win every game that day including beeting me ( loseing to your own army THAT HURTS)
if your army is all close combat you are going to lose add some shooty bits and give it a whirl..

MrBigMr
21-05-2007, 11:45
I'm propably a good loser or something, but I've never realy won any game and I don't even mind anymore. In BFG I get my ass handed to me all the time no matter what I do. Once I won and it was because my friend tried a different combination of ship, taking a battleship instead of loads of escorts.
I don't play WHFB, but friends have tricked me into 2 tournaments. In the first tournament the best I got was a draw and even then my opponent didn't seem to know what he was doing. In the second I lost all matches with massacre, but one I won with a massacre. In paper I won but it was against 2 kids and felt like shooting fish in a barrel.
In 40K I can't even win a friend I'm introducing to the game. He himself finds it funny that I know the rules and the armies I have (Drop Troop IG and Deathworld Vets) and yet I manage to loose. Guess I'm just a naural born looser.

Adra
21-05-2007, 11:48
hell if i turn up with a better painted/converted army than my enemy then ive already won.

leechy
21-05-2007, 12:11
I don't find Losing a big deal, unless it's against a cheese force, In which case I just mentally throw their army against the wall and stamp on it, Having a nicely painted army is the most important thing for me.

jubilex
21-05-2007, 12:12
Don't give up mate, not for just bad luck. You might want to try a different army, not just because it will work differently, but because your luck might change! I've been playing for 10 years now, with eldar and (all sorts of) chaos. I have (something like) 90% wins for eldar and 75% for chaos. The thing is, my luck is pretty average. But, I make virtually all the rolls I need for my eldar (except farseer pow, I lost a farseer in the first turn of the first four battles with the new dex), but I can't make a save for chaos. They drop like flies. My mate caspar once said "power armour is wasted on you". Good luck!

fracas
21-05-2007, 12:48
certainly there is much to be said for winning
but as others have suggested there is much to be said for the other pleasures of the hobby, the colelcting, the building, and the painting of the hobby that imo is so much more than winning

for me, i don't get to play much so just being able to play is more important than winning
thus i try to get as much out of each game in terms of learning more about how to use my army, and how the rules work, as well as how his army army works

don't give up

Charax
21-05-2007, 12:53
I had a massive losing streak about midway through 4th ed. it was depressing and any games seemed pointless.

The trick is to not worry about losing, and when you lose, think about why you lost and learn from it.

A lot of my games I lost because I ignored the objectives and just killed as much as possible - so I started going for objectives.

Lots of my units were unsupported, because I thought my Death Guard were tough enough - so I started sending two units where I would have sent one.

keep playing, but instead of just going "I lost", go "Why did I lose? What would I do differently?". Hopefully your gaming will improve.

Free Spirit
21-05-2007, 13:02
Don't stop! Im a newb myself but i rolled into the game cuz of some veteran players. They all stated that the real fun of the game became apparant when they were playing for fun. Just a couple a games a' evening with some beers and some good mates. Winning doesnt make the game funner in the long haul.

Im doing pretty good with my first army. Played 5 500 points battles and lost 1 of them. I am by no means a superplayer, luck has a great deal to do with it. Plus my army list ( CSM ) relies heavily on its fulcrum units, the Daemonettes ( Overused? Yes! Do i care? No!:evilgrin: ). The time i lost, my daemonettes were summoned to early and got shot to hell, with that loss i was going into a downward spiral that game. I had bad luck, but i had good luck with summoning daemons in the other 4 games. That isn't tactics, thats just hoping the daemons dont arrive too early... or too late. I haven't tried my hands yet on 1000 pts battles ( i have only just completed my 1000 pnts, will upload pics soon ). I can imagine things getting a lot more complex in 1000 pts games compared to 500 pts games. Perhaps im going to lose XX times now!

Master Jeridian
21-05-2007, 13:15
I carn't see what I'am doing wrong,


My whole Black Templars Force is Close Combat, so all I do is Run at the oppenent as fast as possible and stay in cover as well as possible

Nobody else spot this? If your plan is that predictable and simple to you, it most certainly is to your opponent. Running a bunch of Marines up the table and expecting them not to be shot up, fled from or encircled is folly.

The truth is BT are not Imperial Khorne, and even Khorne armies have trouble if they go purely close combat.

You need fire support in the form of Tornados, and Predators- these units don't suffer from the Righteous Zeal or -1 for Target Priority.

gitburna
21-05-2007, 13:41
HQ
Marshal-80pts-140pts
Artificer armour
Holy orb of Antioch
storm bolter
master crafted power weapon

Emperors Champion-90pts-125pts
Suffer not the Unclean to live
Remind me what this one does ? Is it the strength bonus or the to hit bonus ?
I'd also ditch the master crafting on the commander and probably the holy orbs too.


Troops
Crusader Squad, 8 men all with close combat weapons and bolt pistols-144pts
power weapon

Crusader Squad, 6 men-112pts
plasma gun, missile launcher

Elites
Dreadnought-105pts

The first squad is alright, but a little light on numbers, even with the added character. The dreadnought i assume has an Assault cannon? Do you target troops or vehicles with it? Same with the missile launcher squad.. Vehicles or squads by preference?


Sword Brethren squad, 5 men-95pts-135pts
lighting claws and power weapon, Infiltate

Terminator Squad, 5 men-200pts-250pts
2 assult cannons 2 chainfists


Gah, now we see where most of your points have disappeared!

I cant see the point of infilitrating your Sword Brethren, i think they'd be better off in the main force,As it stands they are really just a closer target than everyone else, its not like your opponent has any reason to *not* shoot them. And your terminators are a quarter of your force! My feeling is you'd be better off taking one of either the Sword Brethren or the Terminators, you already have a dreadnought in the elites remember.

I think with a few more basic marines [mix of bolter and bolt pistols] you'd alleviate your issues of bad rolling all the time, since you'd have a few more bodies. So that you still get use from all your elites maybe you could then switch between the 3 every game.

So to sum up, consider only picking 2 of your elites for each game and along with the handful of points you could save from superfluous wargear on the marshall, you could get a bigger wave of troops in the main force.

don_mondo
21-05-2007, 13:52
I have been playing for quite a while now and I collect Black Templars. I have had around 20 odd matches and out of those 20 I have only won 5 max! I love the whole modelling and painting, I find it very enjoyable and the whole collecting thing is great, So I was thinking, should I stop gamming and just go collecting painting e.t.c

I carn't see what I'am doing wrong, I'am Black Templars, My whole Black Templars Force is Close Combat, so all I do is Run at the oppenent as fast as possible and stay in cover as well as possible.

I think it is something to do with the dice.... They don't like me. The Dice God Spits on me. Its "O.K I have terminator armour, I have a 2+ armour save I can do this I only need a 2+... (rolls dice, and one appears) O.K that was just bad luck" Oppenet says "you got to make a LD test now you are below 50%" I say " O.K I definatly can do this I have my commander making it LD10 I cannot fail this" (rolls dice and 11 pops up, I turn to the wall and smack my head across it).

This isn't the first time this has happened no,no this has basically done this in every match.... I think I should just shove the dice up my oppents ass where the Sun don't shine


You've only played 20 games of 40K total or 20 games with the BTs? Either way, you've actually done fairly well if you've won 25% of your games. I'd hate to try to figure out what my record was when I started out, and any time you pick up a new army there's going to be a learning curve. Stick with it, play a couple hundred games and then take a look at moving to something else.