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View Full Version : O&G's a good place to start with WHFB



matthewmw64
21-05-2007, 09:02
Hi all,

I've been looking into starting a WHFB army soon and O&G's really caught my eye. I really like the Waaaagh! special rule for its potential Game Winningness, The complete randomness of the army as a whole (Animosity anyone) and the feeling I get that this would be an army both my opponent and I could have a good laugh over (Eg, Getting Squabbles on ALL of my units when rolling for animosity)
There also a complete departure from my current 40k army. (Tau)
I also like the nastiness of the Fanatics and the Mix of Elite (Orcs, Black Orcs) and the dirt cheap cannon fodder (Both Kinds of Goblins), and the way the army is fairly tailorable to your play style as long as it involves getting up close and kicking some a**e.

My question to you however is, Is O&G's a good army for a beginner to start with?

I'm planning on getting the Battalion Box, An Orc hero Box and 5 extra Orc boyz to from BWbitz. Would this be a good place to start?

I'm currently planning on a good mixture of both Orcs and Goblins.

Thanks for any help at all,
Matthew

Kavu
21-05-2007, 09:26
Although they do have the random element you will find that this can be minimised in more competitive games. You will still defineatley get games where they go spectacularly haywire. Do not give up however as they are I beleive one of the most fun armies to play.

And don't get your hopes up too much about the waaaaagh rule as it will not help you outcharge cavalry but will rather allow you to get the charge in against those faster moving elves and sneaky skaven.

On your starting selection consider at least one mage defending against magic is important in your warhammer games.

About being good as a beginner army I think so it is not overly complex and does not require such complex tactical play as wood elves say.

Enjoy mate

matthewmw64
21-05-2007, 09:39
Ooooh, i think you misread me. It's the Randomness element I REALLY like. I would likely downplay a bit at say Tournies, but not by much :D
What sort of Mage do you suggest? Night Gobbo or Common Gobbo? Or even an orc one.

Anyway, thanks for the quick response :
I really appreciate it.

Murderous Monkey
21-05-2007, 09:40
I think Orcs are a decent first army, they're fun to play and have more amusing rules and ideas than plenty of other armies. They also feature heavily in the starter set and the 60 goblins you get there can be very useful! If you don't have Skull Pass this is a great reason to get it - the goblins are very useful and it's only 10 more than the big rulebook (but it lacks all the tasty background and hobby stuff unfortunately). Of course in the States I understand it is insanely cheap to get Skull Pass. You could also look out for the goblins on ebay from those foolish dwarf players or people who buy Skull Pass for the rulebook and try to make money back by selling all those miniatures!

As for your suggested purchases I'd recommend you skip the orc hero box and get the new black orc hero blister, because a) I think the model is far better, b) it is cheaper, c) at the points level you're buying one hero is more than enough, and d) it means you can save up for the excellent Orc Army plastic set (100) which gives you the warboss box set and adds up to a very respectable sized army about 1100 points + 2 characters, which can easily be 300 extra points tfor a warboss and battle-standard).

My suggestion is the Skull Pass if you don't have it, the battalion if you do and a black Orc blister to be sure. If you can get a few extra orc boyz then so much the better but you'll have enough to try out the rules with the battalion. You might also like to invest in a Fanatic box set to have more use out of those night goblins.

Have fun with the army (by stange coincidence I bought an Orc and Goblin army yesterday) and don't get discouraged by a few losses, the random nature of the army means sometimes you will be unstoppable (sort of) and sometimes you will be crushed utterly. Just have fun doing it!



EDIT: I'd go for a night goblin shaman - you can put him in the night goblin unit, not have to worry about getting extra goblins (so he fits the army better) and he's 5 points cheaper. I also prefer the models!

Kavu
21-05-2007, 09:50
As a defensive hero level spellcaster night goblin is defineatley the way to go!

And I should have told you but I forgot thankfully Murderous Monkey reminded me the skull pass boxed set is a good starting point for orcs and goblins.

as I already said enjoy;)

Morris
21-05-2007, 10:06
O%G are fantastic for a noob to start with. They have so much character, so much potential and there is so much hilarity. Word of warning though: You HAVE to have a sense of humour. If you don't then you will end up hating them.

Most of the OG players at my GW just have a larf and a bit of a giggle as they play.

Karlon
21-05-2007, 14:55
I started Fantasy with O&G at the start of 6th Ed and never regretted it. Im having fun building a second O&G army now the new book is out.

Im green at heart no matter how often I stray, and O&G seem like a perfect match for you.

memitchell747
21-05-2007, 15:32
I usually tell my opponents only two things can beat my Orcs, his army, and my army.

I have snatched defeat from the jaws of victory more times that I care to remember. If you like RANDOM events, definately go for this army.

rinto_tinto
21-05-2007, 15:56
If you really like the randomness I'd suggest fanatics. Orcs and Goblins are great because you can act on wild impulses which only occasionally pay off but when they do they're awesome. Animosity is fun as well even if it really screws up your army just because it's a laugh to see what's going to happen.

Heretic Burner
22-05-2007, 22:25
About the only reason I'd say O&G is good to start with is because it is a great time to pick them up cheap off of Ebay. It is definitely a buyer's market!

However, you really have to ask yourself why this is the case. The answer is very simple, many players are disgusted with the current O&G army. The fact the army book is an incoherent mess of rules does not make it suitable for beginners. The fact the army is tier 3 in effectiveness does not make it suitable for beginners. The fact that it does indeed cause frustration enough for many to simply give up on the army and put it up for sale does nnot make it suitable for beginners. In fact many players will very quickly misunderstand how good Warhammer can be if all they have to go by is the poor O&G army.

The fact is randomness is good for a laugh now and again but for the most part it too much takes away from enjoying the game. O&G is a very difficult army to learn the finer aspects of the various phases of the game being the very worst in movement and second worst in magic. You will quickly learn that just throwing the boyz into combat is not going to win you many games. And as well as you might believe losing all the time to randomness won't bother you I beg you to reconsider. Go to any forum discussing O&G and there is no doubt in my mind you will find a thread with a player expressing their frustration.

You want a great beginner's army? Go Empire. Elite troops. Cheap troops. Randomness. Decent magic. Decent movement. Decent CC. Etc. Etc. Etc. Great beginner's army!

Zonq
23-05-2007, 02:25
I have to agree with Heretic Burner.

As an old O&G player, I realized with 7th ed that the army is way less controllable and can be frustrating sometimes. (It's odd because all new O&G players don't seem to realize that)

As you already know, there are 4 major phases in WHFB: Movement, Magic, Shooting and Combat. With Orcs, you'll learn to play effectively only with 2 of those phases: Shooting and Combat.

Let's start with the movement phase. All units in an O&G army either:
1) Have Animosity (Most of units)
2) Have Random Movement
3) Have both 2 & 1
4) Are led by a black Orc big boss
5) Are overcosted (Black Orcs) or are marginally useful (Snotlings) or are a warmachine or a chariot (which are the most effective units in an O&G army IMHO)
All that to say that most of the time your units will have 1/3 probability of not doing what you want them to do. So, in other words, your Orcs will do the movement phase instead of you!

And then comes the magic phase. If a unit containing a shaman squabbles, your shaman may not cast spells. That may not seem so bad, but keep in mind that each shaman which squabbles effectively gives a number of dispell scrolls to the enemy equal to the number of spells he could have cast otherwise. (Sorry for the grammar) The only ways to correct the situation is either to:
1) Have your shamans outside units (bad idea since 7th ed)
2) Cram all your shamans in units of Trolls, snotlings or black orcs (a better idea but not that much)
3) Have black orc big boss with all your shamans (Thus paying 2 characters for a Shaman)

Anyway, O&G are a great army when Gork&Mork help you, but can be frustrating to play with and will not help beginners to learn all phases of the game.

Sorry for being a little discouraging!

ZOnq

Kavu
23-05-2007, 06:11
I must disagree with Heretic Burner & Zonq


You want a great beginner's army? Go Empire. Elite troops. Cheap troops. Randomness. Decent magic. Decent movement. Decent CC. Etc. Etc. Etc. Great beginner's army!

as cheap as the basic orcs not as good on a charge. orcs have troops that fit the elite role and are better on the charge. randomness apart from the misfire and pigeon bombs pls do tell? decent magic so is the orc one. Magic is there to support your army not be a game winner! It's not reliable enough for that (meaning stop using a shaman heavy army unless you can deal with the miscasts)! Decent movement, this is funny, block troops with movement 4.... wait that's the same as the orcs. fast cavalry... just a sec don't the orcs get them too (yeah but they're cheaper and core, of course that's worse. Decent CC yeah right so you mean to say that a unit of spearmen is better than a unit of orcs in combat.

About the only area where empire actually become better than orcs is the shooting phase.


Let's start with the movement phase. All units in an O&G army either:
1) Have Animosity (Most of units)
2) Have Random Movement
3) Have both 2 & 1
4) Are led by a black Orc big boss
5) Are overcosted (Black Orcs) or are marginally useful (Snotlings) or are a warmachine or a chariot (which are the most effective units in an O&G army IMHO)
All that to say that most of the time your units will have 1/3 probability of not doing what you want them to do. So, in other words, your Orcs will do the movement phase instead of you!

1. that's true but you should'nt let this discourage you. It's the powergaming players who expect to feild an army and just win that continuously whine!
2. Can someone pls explain to me how three units in the army book having random movement becomes all/most units? (hoppers, pump wagon and fanatics.)
3. No only the squig hoppers do, and then you get to choose the direction they move in and to ignore terrain.
4. ???????
5. Of course if seen alone all units will be useless, however when you learn to combine units into an army they become powerfull.

to round up the probability of a 1 on a d6 is 1/6 probability.

If you want an army that will trash your opponent regardless don't start the hobby. otherwise choose to your liking.

matthewmw64
23-05-2007, 06:27
Anyway, If you think about it, theres a 1/6 chance of nothing happening, but theres a 1/6 chance of a going faster and still a 2/3 chance fo nothing going wrong. Ill take those odds any day.

Kavu
23-05-2007, 06:36
Well said! Its not worth giving up because of it!

forgottenlor
23-05-2007, 07:09
After not having played warhammer almost 10 years, I started in the 6th edition again with a friend. My friend had 6 whole armies (he's a fanatic collector) and of those he had O&G appealed to me best, so before I started collecting my first army, I played O&G

From my experience, they are very difficult army for a newbie. I'm not saying they are a bad army, its just you have a lot to master. They have so many options, but I find they can't do anything really well. You have numbers, ok, but using a horde army, using your numbers against opponents, leading him into traps, and knowing when to sacrafice what requires a fair knowledge of warhammer. I find Lizardmen, Brettonia, and Dwarves much better beginner armies. They're relatively simple with a more straitghforward type of play.

Now I like playing orcs once in a while, and the next two armies I have started collecting after Lizardmen, namely Skaven and Tomb Kings, are some of the more challenging armies to play, so I am not one to advice against uncomplicated armies, its just if you want to start with orcs, know what you're getting into. You will really need a number of games to get to know your army, so don't get frustrated!!!

GundamMecha
24-05-2007, 12:15
4) Are led by a black Orc big boss
5) Are overcosted (Black Orcs)
ZOnq

I too am confused about point 4. Led by a Black Orc Boss... How is this a negative thing? Can you please elaborate?

And Black Orcs over costed....

Try playing Chaos my friend... I've paid many a small fortune in points for my Chaos Warrior regiments.

Karlon
24-05-2007, 13:42
People need to stop believing everything they read on the internet and figure things out for themselves. I am ware of the irony in this statement, but it really gets my goat that people are putting thr O&G book down so badly when they are just angry that their army changed.

The book isnt bad, Orcs are never going to be the strongst army in the game and that was never the case.

Empire are the "best" army to start with on a learning basis but if youre not attracted to Empire then dont play them. I find them to be boring human types, boring to paint and boring to play. Empire are also a middle of the road army when it comes to overall "power", unless you like up with nothing but handgunners and artillery making it a boring game for everyone, so I dont understand the arguement there.

That guy has a serious anti-orc attitude and likes Empire. I like Orcs and find Empire to be boring. The point is that nobody is the same and you should pick what you like the look of and are inspired by more than basing your choice on the grudge of a random guy on the internet.

Avian
24-05-2007, 14:16
Nah, greenskins are quite a nice army and there is a sufficient number of good units to make a decent army out of it. The army book isn't terribly well written, but Mat Ward didn't manage to mess up everything, thankfully.

More: Orcs & Goblins Tactics page (http://folk.ntnu.no/~tarjeia/avian/subpage.php?s=index_greenskin_tactics)




About the only reason I'd say O&G is good to start with is because it is a great time to pick them up cheap off of Ebay. It is definitely a buyer's market!

However, you really have to ask yourself why this is the case. The answer is very simple, many players are disgusted with the current O&G army.
There were a lot of cheap O&G on eBay in 6th edition as well, and the reason is pretty much the same as now: Greenskins have a whole lot of cheap plastic kits, a natural consequence of having been in the two latest starter sets. :p

sephiroth87
24-05-2007, 15:01
That's true. The only things in my army that didn't come from either the 6th or 7th edition starter boxes was a giant and a unit of savage orcs.

Cpt_NinjaPants
24-05-2007, 15:22
I say go for it man, like Heretic said, you can get massive armies off ebay for cheap, as the army book for them is a little rough. But there not awful, there a average Warhammer army, have up's and downs. Biggest up imo is that they just got redone and have beautiful models.

My first warhammer army is one of the hardest for begginers (I never even played 40k), if not the hardest. Wood Elves, but if you have a nice hobby group, no matetr what army you start you can learn fast through them.

klinktastic
24-05-2007, 15:35
I am a current Orcs and Goblins player and I think it is a fantastic army. However, I would DEFINITELY NOT consider it a good beginner army. The randomness is something skill can cope with. As suggested above, Empire is a great army to start with. Additionally, Brettonia is also very good and cheap to make. However, you will not be a beginner forever so go with what you want. If you want some more specific info come check out the online OnG community at Da Warpath (link below).

http://s3.invisionfree.com/Orc__Goblin_Warpath/index.php?act=idx

kainthedragoonx
24-05-2007, 16:09
The Wife Started with Orcs and Goblins, and she loves them. They are a great army to learn every aspect of the game without having to worry about every aspect of the game. You understand what I am saying?

Basically you can have an Orc and Goblin army the has magic, can shoot, moves quickly, and throws the beat down in close combat...without being overly weak in any of those aspects!

It's a great army, and I enjoy playing against them and as them all the time.