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Nell2ThaIzzay
21-05-2007, 19:39
I have a question about how to charge skirmishers in certain situations. I made a diagram to try to help illustrate my point.

A block of infantry (or any unit really) is within charge range of a unit of skirmishers, and declares a charge on them. Any neccesary tests are taken, and passed, and the skirmishers hold to take the charge.

There is another block of infantry behind the skirmishers to an angle. This block of infantry is a friendly unit to the skirmishers, and the charging unit would like to attempt an overrun into that unit should they break the skirmishers in the first round. Probably is, the block of infantry is at an angle from the charging unit, and if the charging unit were to charge directly forward, it would not be able to overrun into the other unit on a break, it'd go straight ahead into nothingness.

An opponent of mine stated that since skirmishers line up to the chargers, that he could charge the skirmishers at any angle, all he needs to do is -touch- the skirmishers, and them the skirmishers form up. So essentially, even though he does not need to do it to make the charge a success, he will slightly wheel his unit at an angle, move forward, when he touches the skirmishers they form up, and he'd be in position to get his overrun charge.

That didn't seem right to me. But he showed me the diagrams in the book which stated nothing about needing to charge the bulk of the unit, or any other stipulations, that once one skirmisher was touched, they formed up for combat.

I tried to do the same thing to a different opponent in another game, thinking it was legal. This game was at Game's Workshop. When I used this same tactic of wheeling my units against his skirmishers into a favorable angle for myself, he said that it did not seem right. I told him my friend's interpretation of the rule, and how it had been used against me and it was my understanding that it was legal. He didn't agree with me, nor did anybody else at Game's Workshop. The reasoning was stated as that you must charge in the most direct line possible. I did not see that exact wording anywhere in the rulebook, but as I was outnumbered (and my friend's interpretation of the rule didn't seem right to me to begin with) I went along the game under their ruling.

Which is the proper ruling? Can you wheel and angle your charging units against skirmishers at any angle you choose, so as long as you touch 1 skirmisher? Must you charge at the most direct path to the skirmishers? If it's the latter, what is the most direct route? Is it towards the bulk of the unit? Or is it towards just the closest model?

I hope that my diagram will help out with understanding what I'm talking about.

Festus
21-05-2007, 19:55
Hi

Yes, you can: Tactical Wheeling (the name of this phenomenon) is explicitly allowed in 7th - and I said already that it was allowed in 6th as well, but few believed me :)

Festus

Nell2ThaIzzay
21-05-2007, 20:02
Is there something from the book that I can show to future opponent's who question this next time?

Atrahasis
21-05-2007, 20:28
Its not explicitly stated in the rulebook as allowed, but the Rulebook FAQ says it is. Check the GW website for the latest version.

Festus
21-05-2007, 20:33
Here:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/warhammer7.pdf

Festus

Da GoBBo
21-05-2007, 20:54
Hi

Yes, you can: Tactical Wheeling (the name of this phenomenon) is explicitly allowed in 7th - and I said already that it was allowed in 6th as well, but few believed me :)

Festus

:) I remember that thread. It wasn't allowed because of the fact that there was a restriction in the back of the book that said wheeling during a charge was only allowed to bring as many models in contact as possible (not in so many words though). I can't find this restriction in 7th ed. and can't find a rule which says you have to aim for the units centre (I believe that was the 5th ed. wording). i can't find anything that explicitly allowes it though.

Festus
21-05-2007, 21:11
I can't find anything that explicitly allowes it though.
Well, in this case I can only advise you to open the page linked in my above post and read the second page - most notably the right column :D

Festus

Nell2ThaIzzay
21-05-2007, 22:19
Here:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errata/assets/wh/warhammer7.pdf

Festus

Thanks for that, Festus. I have that saved to my computer now, so next time I try that, and the people at GW try to tell me otherwise, I'll be like "Festus says you're wrong!"

:D

(although I don't agree with the rule, but such is life)

Masque
21-05-2007, 22:46
I think you do still have to follow the rule requiring you get the maximum number of models into the fight though. So if you need to wheel more or less or at a different point in your move to achieve that then you must do it.

Atrahasis
21-05-2007, 23:44
The amount wheeled will generally not be an issue unless the skirmishers are very spread out, as they will rank up to the chargers and almost always guarantee maximum contact.

Masque
21-05-2007, 23:51
Almost always and always are different though. And distance is not the only possibility to reduce the number of skirmishers that make it into contact. Sometimes there will be a nearby unit or impassable terrain that could limit the number of skirmishers that make it into contact.

Festus
22-05-2007, 06:24
This is of no consequence, as it is the Skirmisher's job to maximise fighting models. As you will always have to make cntact withthe same model regardless or the amount of wheeling, the distance of the skirmishers will always be the same...

Festus

Atrahasis
22-05-2007, 11:31
Not necessarily Festus.

It can occur that wheeling so that the far right of the formation contacts the closest skirmisher that all skirmishers in the unit will be within the distance required to rank up (double base movement), but wheeling so that the far left of the formation contacts the closest skirmisher does not. This means that the first wheel must be made in preference to the second.

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-05-2007, 11:36
:) I remember that thread. It wasn't allowed because of the fact that there was a restriction in the back of the book that said wheeling during a charge was only allowed to bring as many models in contact as possible (not in so many words though).


Thats not true, it was allowed just fine in 6th as well, it just didn't had a FAQ statement backing it up. But thats an outdated discussion by now.


But Festus provided the FAQ link that establish that. And yes, you can design situations where you can't wheel exactly as you want. In the vast majority of case you can tactically wheel as you please tho.

Atrahasis
22-05-2007, 11:45
Thats not true, it was allowed just fine in 6th as well, it just didn't had a FAQ statement backing it up. But thats an outdated discussion by now.Strictly it wasn't, but convention allowed it. As you say, though, its an outdated discussion.

Festus
22-05-2007, 12:22
Not necessarily Festus.

It can occur that wheeling so that the far right of the formation contacts the closest skirmisher that all skirmishers in the unit will be within the distance required to rank up (double base movement), but wheeling so that the far left of the formation contacts the closest skirmisher does not. This means that the first wheel must be made in preference to the second.
Yes, true - but quite constructed I daresay.

In most (read 99%) of all cases this will not apply, as Skirmishing units are usually 1st quite small and may 2nd only be at a rather close distance.

The only unit where I can imagine this to happen conceivably is Beastmen Herds - and then only because of their raiders rule.


Festus

Da GoBBo
22-05-2007, 18:53
Which adds another strategic element of movement for the beastman. I like that.


Offtopic, 6th edition stuff
although I don't wan't to redo an old discussion, I do want to say the wording on this topic in 6th edition was much clearer in the summary than in the main part of the book. The summary said you were allowed to wheel during a charge if that meant you got more of your own miniatures in CC. That was all. This is almost the exact wording. To me this means tactical wheeling is not allowed, but perhaps I'm wrong?

Yellow Commissar
23-05-2007, 00:17
Which adds another strategic element of movement for the beastman. I like that.


Offtopic, 6th edition stuff
To me this means tactical wheeling is not allowed, but perhaps I'm wrong?

No, I agree with you and, ahem, Atrahasis. :o

I was shocked when I found out that tactical wheeling was an accepted norm as I understood the wording the same as you.

I think, in the end, tactical wheeling is more fun. :)

Shockwave
23-05-2007, 00:21
Erm from what i read of the OP.

According to Pg 67 "Charging Against Skirmishers"
You charge the the closest Skirmisher. So by that you wheel to get into contact with the closest, move, then they rank up to your unit facing which ever way that it was. "Tactical charge moving" within those limits are allowed.