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View Full Version : Losing/regaining wargear induced Frenzy.



Makaber
22-05-2007, 00:58
There's an Orc magic weapon, which I unfortunately can't remember the name of. Anyway, what it does is grant the wielder Frenzy, and it also explicitly states the wielder can't lose it.

However, there's a Chaos shield (Chaos Runeshield?) that makes any magical weapons the attacker might be armed with, lose their magical abilities when fighting the character equipped with the shield.

So, what would happen with the Orc with Frenzy if he fought said shield? And if he was then subsequently broken in combat? Would he regain Frenzy, and when (in the order of things) would he do so?

Also, if someone cast Vaul's Unmaking (I think it's called) or Law of Gold on it, or Malekith struck it with his Destroyer sword, all of which are effects that destroy the item? Would the psychology effect disappear with it?

I've sorta made up my mind on things, but I thought it'd mention it. It's a orta interesting scenario.

ZomboCom
22-05-2007, 01:06
I'd say he'd lose the frenzy immediately after vaul's unmaking or law of gold.

As the chaos runeshield, I'd presume he simply couldn't use the extra frenzy attack against the character with it.

Makaber
22-05-2007, 01:18
But what if he lost and was outnumbered by a fear causing enemy (say, a Nurgle character on a horse, with the Runeshield)? I assume he'd lose access to Frenzy as long as he was in melee, then regain it as soon as he fled?

DeathlessDraich
22-05-2007, 09:52
Good observation Makaber.

Basha's bloodaxe states that "the wielder can never lose his Frenzy

unlike
Black Maul: "the bearer is also subject to Frenzy".

which does not state that this state of frenzy can never be lost.

1) Therefore losing combat will cause only the Black Maul wielder to lose frenzy.
The wielder of Basha's will not lose his frenzy after losing combat i.e. won't flee from an outnumbering Fear causer.

2) Law of gold etc will destroy both items and their Frenzy components as Zombo said.

3) Chaos Runeshield - "negates magic items" needs an FAQ for a satisfactory answer.
"negates" is not as definite as destroy and could essentially mean "negates the effects". The magic weapons could function normally after moving away from the wielder of the Runeshield.

Makaber
22-05-2007, 10:54
3) Chaos Runeshield - "negates magic items" needs an FAQ for a satisfactory answer.
"negates" is not as definite as destroy and could essentially mean "negates the effects". The magic weapons could function normally after moving away from the wielder of the Runeshield.

It does. The only thing the Rune Shield does, is make any magical weapons mundane as long as they're used against a character with the shield.

T10
22-05-2007, 11:36
A: "I smack you Chaos Lord in the head with one Strength 10 hit from the Mace of Helsturm!"
B: "Well, I have the Chaos Rune Shield!"
A: "Oh. So I have my regular attacks instead, then. Can I allocate attacks as normal then?"
B: "Uh, I can't see why not..."
A: "Ok, I allocate all my attacks to your BSB and smack him with a Strenght 10 hit!"
B: "You can't do that! What about my Lord?"
A: "Duh-uh! He's got the Chaos Rune Shield! What do I look like, an idiot?"

-T10

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-05-2007, 11:38
But what if he lost and was outnumbered by a fear causing enemy (say, a Nurgle character on a horse, with the Runeshield)? I assume he'd lose access to Frenzy as long as he was in melee, then regain it as soon as he fled?


Pretty much, yes. It's the same with Witch Elves and the Cauldron of Blood. They will regain there frenzy when they get within range of it again if they have lost it.

DeathlessDraich
22-05-2007, 13:23
A: "I smack you Chaos Lord in the head with one Strength 10 hit from the Mace of Helsturm!"
B: "Well, I have the Chaos Rune Shield!"
A: "Oh. So I have my regular attacks instead, then. Can I allocate attacks as normal then?"
B: "Uh, I can't see why not..."
A: "Ok, I allocate all my attacks to your BSB and smack him with a Strenght 10 hit!"
B: "You can't do that! What about my Lord?"
A: "Duh-uh! He's got the Chaos Rune Shield! What do I look like, an idiot?"

-T10

:D
Rune shield is a "in base contact" item.

DeathlessDraich
22-05-2007, 13:25
Pretty much, yes. It's the same with Witch Elves and the Cauldron of Blood. They will regain there frenzy when they get within range of it again if they have lost it.

Slightly different in this case since Basha's wielder never loses Frenzy.

Negativemoney
22-05-2007, 13:39
If a model with the Basha loses combat (and the Chaos player had the runeshield) he would make his flea roll as normal. If the Chaos player manages to pursue and catch the guy with the Basha then he will be removed as normal. This is because you make both rolls before moving the models and if the pursuing unit catches the fleaing one then the fleaing one just dies on the spot and does not move.

Also the onyl condition for a model to loose frenzy is to loose a combat. so if you loose the item you are still frenzied untill you loose combat.

Rabban
22-05-2007, 14:12
Also the onyl condition for a model to loose frenzy is to loose a combat. so if you loose the item you are still frenzied untill you loose combat.

But in this case the Ork doesn't have the frenzy rule, he has a magic item that gives him frenzy, so if the item is destroyed/nullified/removed he no longer has frenzy.

Negativemoney
22-05-2007, 14:16
This is the same situation as if he is riding a monsterous mount if he has frenzy then his mount has frenzy if he is killed the mount still retains hifrenzy untill he looses combat even if it does not have the frenzy rule. Also if I cast a spell that says model X has frenzy but is no a RIP spell then that model will have the Freanzy spell even though he does not have the ability.

Atrahasis
22-05-2007, 14:17
But in this case the Ork doesn't have the frenzy rule, he has a magic item that gives him frenzy,You just contradicted yourself. Either he is frenzied or he is not.

I do agree that the destruction of the item removes the frenzy though - if magical effects could only be removed by their normal means of removal as claimed by NegativeMoney then item destruction spells/effects would be useless in 99% of cases.

Consider the Banner of Sigismund - by NegativeMoney's assertion destroying the banner would have absolutely no effect as Stubborn cannot normally be lost.

Rabban
22-05-2007, 14:22
You just contradicted yourself. Either he is frenzied or he is not.


What I meant was that the bare orks rules don't have frenzy, it is not listed in his special rules under the army book. The rule is given to him by the item, so if the item goes he would no longer have the rule.

sds661
24-05-2007, 07:59
I do agree that the destruction of the item removes the frenzy though - if magical effects could only be removed by their normal means of removal as claimed by NegativeMoney then item destruction spells/effects would be useless in 99% of cases.

Consider the Banner of Sigismund - by NegativeMoney's assertion destroying the banner would have absolutely no effect as Stubborn cannot normally be lost.

Like NegativeMoney I was under the impression that, once gained, by whatever means, Frenzy is retained until it is lost. (This impression may be a hangover from older editions ... I'm not sure ... but in this respect I have always thought Frenzy to be different from Stubbornness.) The only way I know of losing frenzy (for certain) is having it beaten out of you. Some special rules give frenzy for a specified period (e.g. Centaurs) but that is covered by the special rule, and so is not a precedent. Also some potions or spells induce frenzy, and the effects continue until lost, even though the spell is not RiP ... so there is some support for the notion that, once set in motion, frenzy has a life of its own until it is lost. See also the comments above on riders/mount giving frenzy to each other.

So, is the destruction/negation of the item which induced frenzy a criteria for losing frenzy? I'm not sure we have a definitive answer in the rules, so I don't think this one is cut and dried.

Rabban
24-05-2007, 10:58
Like NegativeMoney I was under the impression that, once gained, by whatever means, Frenzy is retained until it is lost. (This impression may be a hangover from older editions ... I'm not sure ... but in this respect I have always thought Frenzy to be different from Stubbornness.) The only way I know of losing frenzy (for certain) is having it beaten out of you. Some special rules give frenzy for a specified period (e.g. Centaurs) but that is covered by the special rule, and so is not a precedent. Also some potions or spells induce frenzy, and the effects continue until lost, even though the spell is not RiP ... so there is some support for the notion that, once set in motion, frenzy has a life of its own until it is lost. See also the comments above on riders/mount giving frenzy to each other.

So, is the destruction/negation of the item which induced frenzy a criteria for losing frenzy? I'm not sure we have a definitive answer in the rules, so I don't think this one is cut and dried.

Frenzy is a special rule that troops can benefit from, the rule book says that "Frenzied troops that are defeated in close combat, as determined the combat results, immediately lose their Frenzy...." (p52, BRB). However it doesn't say that this is the only way to lose it, just like it makes no mention about fear, terror, stupidity, stubborn, immune to psychology or unbreakable (or an special rule that I can think of for that matter. So if you can't lose it by loosing a magic item, you also can't loose any other status.

This would mean that items that affect an entire unit, for example banners would need to continue to affect the unit even if the BSB with them left. This would make banners such as the chaos banner of the gods (all non-daemonic friendly units within 6" become stubborn) obscenely powerfully, I can just see a banner bearer riding down the battle line making the whole army stubborn in turn 1! :cheese: I don't think any player realistically believes it's meant to be played this way.

So, if you lose the item that gives you the special rule, you must also lose the rule.