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View Full Version : GW Price VS Privateer & Racham (confrontation)



ryntyrr
22-05-2007, 20:13
Hello!

Are Games Workshop Prices cheaper than before?

The new plastic Black Orks:
I bought for 25 quid would have cost me 70 quid over in the old metals (quid = british sterlings). And they are by far better models than the old ones! and they don't chip....

Wood Elf Dryads:
The old metal GW models use to be £6 for two. So for 18 Dryads it use to cost me £54 compared to £18 now and the models are far far better!

Terminators:
Not long ago the old metal Terminator box set use to be £30, I still have one unopend and still priced in my attic! Now the new Terminators which are by far one of the coolest GW figs around are £25....

Silver Helms:
Remember the old metal ones for £6 a blister back in the days when we thought models were cheap???? if I wanted 8 of them it would have cost me over £48 (command being a quid more expensive). I can now by better models for £18

Battle Forces (I have a few built up):
I remember how chuffed I was when I bought my tyranid battle force and I got a Carnifex for free in the box as to buy the same items seperately in the box would have cost me £75 so I saved £25. If I was to get the old range at the prices from 1999 it would have cost me over £15 more than today and that was 7 years ago!!

Other box sets are very cheap to the latter sets GW sold by allot: Saurus Cold ones, Space Marine Devastators, Dreadnaught. I could list a allot more but I think I have made my point. these prices are from 1999. Were not only the quality of minatures from games workshop have got allot better by margins!!

Although it is true to say allot of the models have gone up in price without any change. But it seems they only go up just to be replaced by better models when they release the new versions (on most occassions, for me thumbs up since tyranids).

However it is true to say that building armies are allot cheaper than before due to the plastics than it was before in the days of old. I remember my High Elf army (all metal) cost me twice than the one I can replica today. I would save £198!!!!

There was a time that you could build an army dirt cheap like in 1992-1996.. ahem 10 years ago. But haven't house prices risen by over a couple of 100% (in the uK) with most other things.

Comics use to be 60-90pence now they are around £2 per comic. Over 100% Increase in price in 10 years!! Same thing with console prices etc.

Privateer Press:
I just visited London today and poped in Orcs Nest and indi retailer. I must say I like the Warmachine and Horde models!!

However they are way over priced compared to GW models. There were these dark elf horde models and in the same range these really cool Ogre Samuria type models which were brillaint but for 3 models it was £22!!!!!!!

I rather have an Ogre Bull unit for £20 not as nice but I get more value for money!!!


and the warmachine robots were fantastic very much anime quite cool. But for over £24 you are having a laugh!!! A Space Marine Dreadnaught will do thank you plus I save some money!!!! Or for a little bit more a forge wolrd dreadnaught!

This feels weird GW cheaper than its competitors......????>>>??

The Confrontation Models....... brilliant, breathtaking. Too god dam expensive! £8 for a singel model nice model though. And the regiment boxes over £20 quid.. no thanks I'll stick to my plastic warhammer regiments. Good quality maybe not as good as some of the confrontation models but I get MORE for a cheaper price!

ah man someone in this forum has to write this it may as well be me! Thanks for reading!

~Imperial Truth... awaiting prelimanry Bombardment

blongbling
22-05-2007, 20:16
i couldnt possibly comment

swordwind
22-05-2007, 20:19
This has been done to death. Rackham and Privateer are cheaper because to play a game you need only a handful of minis. My entire Circle of Orboros army has about 12 miniatures. And dont forget it may be £24 but your getting a HUGE lump of metal unlike the plastic toy dreadnought. Plus 3 Grey Knight Terminators would cost you £24 aswell.

Damien 1427
22-05-2007, 20:27
Define "huge". Not to open up the plastic vs. metal debate again, but I'd rather take the Dread as it comes with a plethora of options that found their way into the hands of my Orks.

I sat down and worked out for a 500ish point Trollblood army, it'd cost me roughly £100 including postage. This is for 16 models. A 1000+ 40k army would usually set you back a shade more (£25?) and you'd get a ton more models.

Warmachine is stupidly expensive per model, because fewer models are required to play. Your opinions on such are up to you, but the models do cost a great deal more.

EvC
22-05-2007, 20:28
I think you'll find that most of the complaining about prices focussing on when you get less for more. Things like Devestators did not drop in price when they were made plastic, and I'd be shocked if 5 metal Terminators really did cost £30 (Considering I specifically remember the Grey Knights set being more expensive than regular Terminators and they were increased in price to £30 recently). Now Marines cost around £2, for plastic models, ridiculous, makes me glad I don't play 40K! Take a look at the cost of Imperial heavy weapon duos if you want a good laugh though, you used to get them in a complete squad made of metal, now they cost half the price of the entire squad and are in plastic!

You do however make a good point that is often overlooked with many units being made plastic. If you wanted a unit of 20 Orcs in 4th edition Warhammer you'd have to buy 3 boxes of AWFUL plastic Orcs, and bump them up with two blisters containing Command and some extras. Total cost £25 (Though you'd have 15 awful Arrer Boyz models to go with them), compared to £18 today. Zombies are another good example- 4 for £5, so a unit of 20 would still cost £25 compared to £18 today, and that's not including inflation!

But it all pails into comparison when you look at single Hero models (Tiny things, like Dwarfs and Goblins!) that sell for £6 each at least. Simply: no.

So... pricing threads eh? What fun!

Scionscion
22-05-2007, 20:29
A whole army of 'about 12 miniatures' - 12 models doth not an army make. Skirmish force for a skirmish game yes but not an army!

And just think how much cheaper those 12 models would be if you bought GW instead of Rackham/Privateer - hehe

clovis
22-05-2007, 20:35
Define "huge". Not to open up the plastic vs. metal debate again, but I'd rather take the Dread as it comes with a plethora of options that found their way into the hands of my Orks.

I sat down and worked out for a 500ish point Trollblood army, it'd cost me roughly £100 including postage. This is for 16 models. A 1000+ 40k army would usually set you back a shade more (£25?) and you'd get a ton more models.

Warmachine is stupidly expensive per model, because fewer models are required to play. Your opinions on such are up to you, but the models do cost a great deal more.

I completely agree with you on this one;)it's true warmachine have some of the nicest figures (metal) on the market but god they are expensives:eyebrows: They are for me for a niche inside a niche:o

I just hope this thread doesn't turn in a fight for or againt GW:wtf:

Hollopoint
22-05-2007, 20:37
Metal isn’t better than plastic and I don’t mean it in the sense that it doesn’t retain paint as well, is harder to work with during construction and conversion, chips and is harder to transport. Plastics are a better material full stop when compared to metals.

As for you stating that it's cheaper because it uses less miniatures; that is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. You do realise that you can play a few hundred points if you want to? Nobody is holding a gun to your head and telling you to play 2000point games. I just can’t get my head around it! “my army only has 12 models therefore it is cheaper than a GW army with more than 100” Well duh... :wtf:

Bloodknight
22-05-2007, 20:38
Is the plastic dread really cheaper than the metal one? I seem to remember that I had a good laugh when the plastic one came out and went to buy a metal model for 2€ more...

As for Warmachine and Confrontation: on a per model basis these are a lot more expensive. I am just waiting for the moment when these systems go R'n'F and the whining about the prices begin there. The only price advantage these systems have is their smaller average game size.

The game is afoot
22-05-2007, 20:49
This has been done to death. Rackham and Privateer are cheaper because to play a game you need only a handful of minis. My entire Circle of Orboros army has about 12 miniatures.

Bingo.
It is vastly cheaper to play their systems because you need a lot less models.

What about lovely models like Phoenix Guard and White Lions that are very expensive to buy in blisters, and they are rubbish in gaming terms?

No thanks.

Pokpoko
22-05-2007, 20:50
As for Warmachine and Confrontation: on a per model basis these are a lot more expensive. I am just waiting for the moment when these systems go R'n'F and the whining about the prices begin there. The only price advantage these systems have is their smaller average game size.

will they? the last time i checked it wasn't compulsory to turn your system into "Almost-a-battle" game once you hit a certain point.

lets be frank, Warhammer is not a battle game. it deals with small border patrols and such,not full field armies. not with 100 men on each side average. Warmaster is a battle game.

. You do realise that you can play a few hundred points if you want to?
there's one difference. WM/Confra/Infinity etc. is designed to be played wiuth such low number of minis. WH/40k is not-they get pathetically awkward in small games, 40k a bit less but not much.there is no way you can get the full experience with few minis in WHB, while Skirmish systems are designed to give you this experience on that level.
playing WHB with few minis is like using a PC for calculator. playing WM with few minis is like using a palmtop for work.

Bloodknight
22-05-2007, 20:57
I think in the long run these games will evolve into larger games just because the companies need to sell more stuff to generate growth. A couple of warbands is just not enough to do this for more than a few years.
40K went from a small scale game to a company game in about 20 years as did WFB where armies were a lot smaller (model count) several years ago. And I expect that this won´t last for 20 years in today's market which seems to be almost saturated at the moment.There is not much you can do to sell more models - either bring out lots and lots of factions and rehashes of said factions or enlargening the model count while rehashing stuff later on...

Bombot
22-05-2007, 20:59
lets be frank, Warhammer is not a battle game. it deals with small border patrols and such,not full field armies. not with 100 men on each side average. Warmaster is a battle game.

Well Warhammer is kind of some weird mix. The number of troops represents little more than a skirmish but the high ranking characters you can have wandering around sort of indicates that the fights are something more important.

I find it best not to consider too much what sort of engagement you're supposed to be representing :)

Hollopoint
22-05-2007, 21:02
I find the price of GW stuff really strange. Sometimes I look at the cost of something and think Jesus that’s expensive and at other times it seems completely rational and justified. If I take the Tau army that I have just finished buying stuff for as an example. I must have spent a total of around 300pounds on it. Now when I think of £300 I get different feelings. Is it a lot of money? If I don’t go mental I can save that in one month and I’m not a big earner.

I went to the shops today to look around for some clothes. I don’t really care about named or branded products I just know what I like and buy things on how they look, but I was thinking to myself how quickly that £300 quid would disappear if I bought just a few items.

Bob5000
22-05-2007, 23:33
I think the OP has a fair point .
However , plastic models have increased in price , especially the £5.00GBP jumps in vehicles last year , and the recent price rises .

I agree with the points that 40K and WHFB are not suited to smaller games , the design seems optimised to around 1500 upward in 40K and 2k upward in Fantasy .

eengaming
23-05-2007, 00:06
As stated earlier this topic has been done to death. Not only that, but it forces people to take sides. Look... it is about percieved value. The original poster is obviously more concerned about volume than quality. Comments such as, "I rather have an Ogre Bull unit for £20 not as nice but I get more value for money!!!," pretty clearly illustrate this. The OP is entitled to his opinion. However, thinking that the people who bought the other companies ogres are daft for doing so doesn't take their values into perspective. I play alot of different games (LotR, WM/Hordes, Infinity, CIC) and for me I mostly just buy models I like the appearence of. To me that is value for money. So when I plunk down $50 for a unit of ten WM troops, instead of $35 for a box of marines it is because I like those models more. My point to the OP is that I think his point is valid (cost vs. numbers), but only to him. To others this is not as important.

Warning Stupid Tangent Ahead: I would like to add this sidebar however. Has anyone noticed how people are so concerned with getting as many minis as possible, but then never paint them up? It is a personal pet peeve of mine. People want to get 1,000,000 models in a battle force deal... WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO PAINT THAT?!?! Have you ever been to a store and seen bare metal hanging out on the beautifully painted terrain? Uggghh! Annoying. Just my opinion, and I fully admit that it is a bit snobby. I don't care if it is not painted well, just try. I'm certainly not an expert.

One more sidebar: Currently metal models do hold detail better. This will change as the technology for making the plastics gets better.

KITS AND BITS
23-05-2007, 00:07
I think you'll find that most of the complaining about prices focussing on when you get less for more. Things like Devestators did not drop in price when they were made plastic,



yes they did , they were £25 in metal and are £20 now and I'd be shocked if 5 metal Terminators really did cost £30 (Considering I specifically remember the Grey Knights set being more expensive than regular Terminators and they were increased in price to £30 recently)
once again yes they were and grey knights are £35 for a box of 5 not £30

. Now Marines cost around £2, for plastic models, ridiculous, makes me glad I don't play 40K! Take a look at the cost of Imperial heavy weapon duos if you want a good laugh though, you used to get them in a complete squad made of metal, now they cost half the price of the entire squad and are in plastic!
the marines are £1.80 ish and thats cheap compared to some models and the heavy weapons teams are priced the same accross all armies

You do however make a good point that is often overlooked with many units being made plastic. If you wanted a unit of 20 Orcs in 4th edition Warhammer you'd have to buy 3 boxes of AWFUL plastic Orcs, and bump them up with two blisters containing Command and some extras. Total cost £25 (Though you'd have 15 awful Arrer Boyz models to go with them), compared to £18 today. Zombies are another good example- 4 for £5, so a unit of 20 would still cost £25 compared to £18 today, and that's not including inflation!

But it all pails into comparison when you look at single Hero models (Tiny things, like Dwarfs and Goblins!) that sell for £6 each at least. Simply: no.

So... pricing threads eh? What fun!

warhammer fantasy prices are stupidly cheap theese days , and with the release of the mega forces they just keep getting cheaper . warhammer 40k on the other hand does seem to suffer when price rises come round , and the eldar army cost a fortune as it has alot of metal .

Horus84
23-05-2007, 00:12
Things like Devestators did not drop in price when they were made plastic, and I'd be shocked if 5 metal Terminators really did cost £30

yep they did. Five dev in metal cost £25 for a box which now cost £20 and comes with mulitple weapon options. Metal terminator and the old plastic one where both £25 if remember correctly by the time the new ones came out, plastic ones started at £15 in the early 90's . However you don't gte the poseibilty or options you get the current ones.


As for cost. Well, personally wargaming is a hobby and a luxary hobby at that. People wil pay for the products for whatever game they want to play at what ever the price they are set at if they really want to play it. Like any hobby it is down to how much you want it. Computer gaming, cars, sports etc.. they all are expensive. Take golf for example I can fathom why someone would want to spend £1000's on a set of metal stick's but they do. The same with fishing people spend £100's on plastic fibre glass rods. To me it is crazy. A few hundred pounds a year on toy soliders to me is nothing compared to the entertainment I get from it - someone else on the other hand may think I am a bit doo lally. It is all purely personal.

Now is GW cheaper or more expensive than it competitor. Well I think everyone has really sumed it up. Some games you might need a few more costly metal figure's another you might get a larger cheaper plastic army. Most the players I know, that play things liek Warmachines and confrontation think that really there is not much in the price differnece between GW and other companies. Though when it comes down it if they had to make a choice between them they would choose GW. WHY? well, the accessablilty of the hobby in stores. All the staff and other customers round us are really nice, happy and fun hobbist that are part of what makes GW Wargaming fun - we have a close community that we don't get with other games. My only grip with GW really is the quality of WD - however that is another discusion in another thread.

Well that's my two sense.

Glabro
23-05-2007, 00:49
lets be frank, Warhammer is not a battle game. it deals with small border patrols and such,not full field armies. not with 100 men on each side average. Warmaster is a battle game.


Errr, you don´t honestly think that Warhammer is a 1:1 scale game, do you? That´s what I thought. I´d like to think that nobody on Warseer´d be so shortsighted (of course, that´s just a fantasy...).

Why is it that you can accept Warmaster´s scale to be abstract but not Warhammer´s? The model count in Warmaster is just about 50% larger than Warhammer when it comes to individual units (though you do field more units).

eengaming
23-05-2007, 01:53
If by 1:1 scale you mean, 1 model equals 1 soldier, then you are incorrect. That is indeed the scale of the game and it is not shortsighted to think so. You can make up any scale you want for YOUR games of Warhammer, but it is my understanding that 1:1 is how the rules are written. If you want to refute that I would like to see your source.
But, to those of us who believed that was the scale, thank you for your sarcasm and insults. :rolleyes:

VetSgtNamaan
23-05-2007, 01:57
And again there is a missing component since it is far easier to get used GW mini's than PP or Rackham simply because GW has been around longer and more people dabbled in it before moving on.

Pokpoko
23-05-2007, 06:57
Errr, you don´t honestly think that Warhammer is a 1:1 scale game, do you? That´s what I thought. I´d like to think that nobody on Warseer´d be so shortsighted (of course, that´s just a fantasy...).

Why is it that you can accept Warmaster´s scale to be abstract but not Warhammer´s? The model count in Warmaster is just about 50% larger than Warhammer when it comes to individual units (though you do field more units).
every single rule in the game sugests that indeed, one model is one guy "in real". if not, we can get over the siliness and play in more fitting 10mm scale.

grickherder
23-05-2007, 07:19
Yeah-- the game is definitely presented as 1:1. You have individual heroes and champions and whatnot and even buy individual magic weapons and items for them. There are individual named special characters as well.

War engines are a good example as well-- cannons shoot a single shot that goes through a regiment rather than representing a battery and doing more general damage to the unit.

Check the example paragraphs about shooting (p 27-30) and note the language-- one elf, one goblin, even one arrow. "If he had scored a 5 or 6, the arrow would have bounced off and left the Elf unharmed" (p30)

All signs point to 1:1.

Do I think that's a good idea for a Fantasy mass battle game? Heck no.

grickherder
23-05-2007, 07:39
To get back on topic-- for most models, Privateer Press and Rackham are as or more expensive than GW. For some, they are not. And also, comparible models are often hard to find. Some Warjacks are as big or bigger than dreads or other walkers. The infantry can be the same as some plastics or the same as some GW metals.

Rules work best at certain game sizes-- WFB & 40k are designed and pushed as higher model count games. 50-100 figures a side (or way more for an army like Gobbos). So that's a company for 40k and a small skirmish force for Fantasy. The model count of the game directly impacts the cost of playing it.

On a per figure basis, Privateer Press & Rackham are no great deal. On a per game basis at the typical points level generally played as "normal" the price definitely goes in their favor.

That said, if you love plastics and love the contents of battalion/battleforce boxes and the like, you can make a WFB/40k army for a reasonable price. It'd still take a lot to get to the 2000/1500 point level though.

As for availability, I've found most of the local stores have shrunk their GW stuff remarkably over the last few years. The closest shop carries everything that Privateer Press produces and a good chunk of the Rackham stuff. They still have a decent amount of GW stuff, but you'd definitely have to special order stuff if you didn't get a marine army of one type or another. Closest GW store is in the next closest city. It's probably different in different parts of the world (like the UK where GW stuff is way more prevalent).

One thing that is cool about the urban density in the UK is that gaming clubs are more likely to appear and thrive. It is sad that indie stores have mostly gone the way of the do-do in the UK, but super huge gaming clubs and massive conventions like Salute do a little to make up for that.

The game is afoot
23-05-2007, 09:26
... super huge gaming clubs and massive conventions like Salute do a little to make up for that.

The conventions are regular and all around England so the 'little guys' get to air their wares fairly frequently and it never ceases to amaze me how many there are and how much they cover.

Osbad
23-05-2007, 09:35
Broadly speaking I would say GW;s metals and Rackham/PP metals are similar prices. Obviously (some) plastic prices are less (but not all - the plastic Balrog is the same price as the metal one for instance) and so forth. Some GW plastics are cheap, some are not so.

But 1 plastic figure does not equate to 1 metal one. I appreciate that some prefer the poseabiolity of plastic, others (like me) prefer the heft of lead.

Personally while I might make a "saving" by substituting plastic for lead I would get comensurately less satisfaction from the end result. I might be persuaded to pay £15 for a beautiful lead monster like Gulavhar, but no one will persuade me that a plastic Leman Russ kit is worth £25 (or whatever it goes for now). That's personal preference and your mileage may vary...

A lot of personal factors here - very "You say tomayto I say tomahto...". Neither side of the debate is "right", but plumping for one side over the other by GW risks alienating some current customers. Ultimately the final arbiter is GW's turnover figures. Replacing plastic for lead and keeping the plastic prices near the metal ones for many of the ranges seems not to be helping much in that area over the last 2 years...

Dr Death
23-05-2007, 14:30
I very much agree with MvS' and Osbad's points but here are my own thoughts.

For me making something that was previously overpriced in metal into overpriced plastic isnt *really* a price drop (isnt it wonderfully pertinent that such a phrase feels like it's a typo when writing it). Like many others i buy based on how much i feel something is worth rather than whether or not its a 'better deal' than its previous incarnation. As far as i'm concerned all of GW's products are to a lesser or greater extent overpriced so simply swapping between different mediums really doesnt allay that impression.

What really gets me and which is an immutable truth regardless of whether on the whole building an army is cheaper or more expensive than 10 years ago is the 'jumps' in the individual price of the individual products, particularly those which havnt changed drastically for the better (changing for the worse really wouldnt be justification for a price rise obviously). A good example is the plastic space marine tactical squad which with the exception of a few added pieces hasnt changed at all since it's release in the autumn of 1998... but it's price has! Veritably a pound a year for the same thing (an utterly fantastic thing i must note- the space marine plastics are the best GW do) we were buying 9 years ago.

Obviously inflation plays a part and so i could understand GW shoving a couple of quid on its already formidable price to keep their (large) profit margins the same, as indeed they did, only a couple of years after it's release when all the plastic boxes went up to £12.

So it's really two ways of internal comparison really- the OP prefers to compare it to GW BB (before boxsets) whereas i see it as a comparison of prices between after the plastic boxes were released and now. It's really 'glass half full' or 'glass half empty' ism and when it comes to my money i tend to go down the latter road before handing it over.

Dr Death

Bombot
23-05-2007, 16:16
I've been under the impression that Warhammer was not supposed to be 1:1, seeing as a five-wide block of infantry isn't exactly a force to be reckoned with. But then characters do seem to be 1:1.

As I said: weird mix. Best not dwell on it too much!

Asmith
23-05-2007, 16:36
As an engineer my perspective is this:

Most things in the world are priced by how much a thing actually costs to make, marked up by a combination of marketing hype, supply and demand, functionality, infrastructure (could you make it yourself?) etc.

Now GW is in a very strange position from my point of view because there is almost no intrinsic value in the product GW makes. And their price is staggeringly high when you look at something like consumer electronics. For the same money as a couple of pieces of molded plastic you could be getting something that incorporates a laser, many miniaturized motors, some of the most advanced electronics (made using the most advanced manufacturning processes mankind has ever produced), and some molded pieces of plastic (the case). This doesn't mention the development costs of using many thousands of the most highly skilled engineers in the world.

Now of course the market for most consumer product is much bigger, so GW is making smaller margins because of the correspondingly higher manufacturing costs (plus the fact they manufacture in a high wage country like the UK) right? Wrong. In fact GW makes a margin (70% or so) many times higher than regular consumer products, and in the neighborhood of things like medical products, which are much much much more involved to produce (and with similiar market size per product).

In the subject of metal vs. plastic, metal is both more expensive for the material, and more expensive to produce, plus is superior as a medium for reproducing artistic detail (allowing undercuts and sharper detail) so it's no contest for me metal has more intrinsic value.

KITS AND BITS
23-05-2007, 16:45
hmmm , i find it really strange that some one can accept a army made of mutaded giant rat men but cant accept that they represent 1 skaven= 1 model scale ?
as for the border patrol not being an army situtaion , firstly its more likely that an empire would have border skirmishes than full fledged all out war , but even if thats what you feel the game should represent then whats stopping you ? if you want ranks hundreds wide then go for it ! only thing in your way is the size of the board and your wallet and finding an apponent with a similar sized army .

as for price , i have said it before and i will say it again , i am willing to give any one from warseer a 15% discount on anything in the current GW range and free delivery for orders over £15 .

all you have to do is tell me what you want , i send you a quote , you pay , i send the goods , you save a fortune .

plus i do a bits service , click the links in signature for my ebay shop too .

Chaos and Evil
23-05-2007, 17:08
I've been under the impression that Warhammer was not supposed to be 1:1, seeing as a five-wide block of infantry isn't exactly a force to be reckoned with. But then characters do seem to be 1:1.

As I said: weird mix. Best not dwell on it too much!


Exactly correct, Warhammer fudges the details a bit as to whether or not it is a 1:1 system.

Characters, Monsters, War Engines etc, all portrayed at 1:1.


And then you have formations of 20 men moving around and fighting in ranks... which in the annals of all battles, everywhere, has never happened.

The only time troops move in such large formations is when there are hundreds, not tens, of men making up the shiltron/phalanx/formation.


And that is why Warhammer is confused... its scale is small, and at that scale anyone who doesn't want to die should really be skirmishing... but those wacky infantry persist in running around 5-wide and 4-deep. :rolleyes:


Warhammer is a very fun game, even if its design mechanics are a little bit confused.

Bombot
23-05-2007, 17:16
I guess confusion lies in the fact that, to my knowledge, 40k has always represented 1:1.

Archaon
23-05-2007, 17:51
It boils down to this:

Skirmish games give you possibly an equal amount of fun in less time and less financial commitment than full blown army games.

Rackham and Privateer Press are not that cheaper (if at all) than GW if you do a direct comparison but since those games are designed for skirmishing games it works out if you only have 10-20 models per side.

Sure.. GW games could be played like that but the rules were not really designed that way and it would be hard to get pickup games for this size.. usual games begin at at least 1000 points to the usual 2000 for Warhammer Fantasy (don't know the usual 40k size.. 1500?).

So to be fair you have to look at each game on their own and when you do this the skirmishers win because overall they are cheaper and deliver the same "amount" of fun.

clovis
23-05-2007, 19:14
hmmm , i find it really strange that some one can accept a army made of mutaded giant rat men but cant accept that they represent 1 skaven= 1 model scale ?
as for the border patrol not being an army situtaion , firstly its more likely that an empire would have border skirmishes than full fledged all out war , but even if thats what you feel the game should represent then whats stopping you ? if you want ranks hundreds wide then go for it ! only thing in your way is the size of the board and your wallet and finding an apponent with a similar sized army .

as for price , i have said it before and i will say it again , i am willing to give any one from warseer a 15% discount on anything in the current GW range and free delivery for orders over £15 .

all you have to do is tell me what you want , i send you a quote , you pay , i send the goods , you save a fortune .

plus i do a bits service , click the links in signature for my ebay shop too .

Very interesting;) do you deliver to Rep of Ireland(Dublin):p

clovis
23-05-2007, 19:21
It boils down to this:

Skirmish games give you possibly an equal amount of fun in less time and less financial commitment than full blown army games.

Rackham and Privateer Press are not that cheaper (if at all) than GW if you do a direct comparison but since those games are designed for skirmishing games it works out if you only have 10-20 models per side.

Sure.. GW games could be played like that but the rules were not really designed that way and it would be hard to get pickup games for this size.. usual games begin at at least 1000 points to the usual 2000 for Warhammer Fantasy (don't know the usual 40k size.. 1500?).

So to be fair you have to look at each game on their own and when you do this the skirmishers win because overall they are cheaper and deliver the same "amount" of fun.

I don't agree with this statement(but that's my point of view:D ) i have more fun when i play with 50 to 100 figures in my army.Also saying that you need less minuatures the game is less expensives:o of course it's less expensive:wtf: But if you're like and like to have tons and tons of figurines then GW is less expensive(ps : only in plastic).To finish this is a very difficult debat as this is very subjective and i can only encourage people to go for the company they feel will bring them what they need : FUN:p

swordwind
23-05-2007, 20:22
60 metal Normans for £30 from Black Tree during thier sales.

grickherder
23-05-2007, 20:57
Yesterday I watched the first half of The Fellowship of the Ring and immediately got inspired to get some Ring Wraith miniatures.

So I found this:
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=Individual&code=99111499049&orignav=9
and
http://ca.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.ca?do=Individual&code=99111499049&orignav=9

The exchange rate between USD and CAD is currently 1.0825 which means $45 USD should be about 48.71. Let's say the bank takes two percent for good measure. It's still 49.61.

$70!!!? That represents an exchange rate of 1.556. That's a 47% difference! Between two countries with the largest undefended border in human history. Where more trade passes than almost any place on the planet. Where trade agreements and shipping infrastructure make shipping and importing so easy (I work in that field). It's a joke that GW is trying to maintain an exchange rate from years ago.

It's not like it has to cross water or go on a jet. 90% of Canada's population is right near the border.

So know if I want GW's stuff and don't want to get ripped off by false exchange rates, I need to order it in from a US store like thewarstore.net or Battlewagon Bits. Policies like this lie of an exchange rate really make Privateer Press and Rackham products far more attractive.

Online US retailers would do well to really go after Canadian customers at this point.

Templar Ben
23-05-2007, 21:04
It's not like it has to cross water or go on a jet. 90% of Canada's population is right near the border.

We know you guys are all on the border because you are planning to invade. ;)

I have seen that a lot with UK vs US prices. Perhaps I could start a nice racket of selling to UK members and listing it as plastic samples and assign a value based on weight for duties purposes?

grickherder
23-05-2007, 21:58
The VAT does make up a large chunk of the difference between the US and UK prices, but Canadian GST and provincial taxes are NOT included in GW's Canadian prices.

GW's withdrawal from the regular distribution channels is what makes these ludicrous pricing differences possible. And the general attack on online retailers helps them with these kind of exchange rate gouging as well.

That is one thing I like about PP and Rackham. They may have high prices as well, but alteast they're not charging prices based on fraudulent exchange rates because they control the distribution.

Archaon
23-05-2007, 22:28
I don't agree with this statement(but that's my point of view:D ) i have more fun when i play with 50 to 100 figures in my army.Also saying that you need less minuatures the game is less expensives:o of course it's less expensive:wtf: But if you're like and like to have tons and tons of figurines then GW is less expensive(ps : only in plastic).To finish this is a very difficult debat as this is very subjective and i can only encourage people to go for the company they feel will bring them what they need : FUN:p

And that's ok too.. some like to have the physical representation of "mass combat" and therefore get less enjoyment from skirmisher systems.

If however one likes both then the skirmish approach is much cheaper for the same result.

Another point is also the success of skirmish systems because they have lower cost. In times of cell phones, videogames, summer blockbuster movies and for some girlfriends tabletop games have it harder to get the money but when a teenager or young adult has decided to play with little toys he will also look at the price and that's what breaks or at least bends GW's neck too.

The initial startup cost is just way too high to play "properly", i.e. with a full army. You'll need at least 250-300 $ or Euro to field a standard force and even more so if you want more troops for variety.

Skirmish systems get this for half or even less the costs.. all the company needs to do is get the customer interested enough and from what i hear at least Privateer Press is doing extremely well presenting their games at conventions with big booths whereas GW is hardly present.

clovis
23-05-2007, 22:32
60 metal Normans for £30 from Black Tree during thier sales.

Sorry but your missing the point;) the thread is about GW vs PP & Racham

Those 3 companies are not doing historical figures, because in this case i can find cheaper historical in plastic(italic, rewell...) in this case i can find few hundreds for less than £30:rolleyes:

rivers3162
23-05-2007, 22:53
For me, as with other, mostly it boils down to what I'm willing to pay and what I consider to be good value. For example would I rather pay £25 and get the plastic GW dreadnought or pay the same amount and get the all-metal Khador Behemoth? Value is entirely in the eye of the purchaser and people are prepared to pay huge amounts of money if they want something badly enough.

Another thing is the startup costs - skirmish games use fewer models and generally cost a lot less. However Privateer Press do battle group boxes which include the basic rules and usually 4 warjacks and a warcaster for £25-30. These usually give about 300 points worth of models so can form a solid basis for an army and if they buyer doesnt like the game, its no huge loss.

I think GW has really tried to emulate this concept with the new battleforces/battalions which contain the basics of a force but to build an army..but you're usually going to need to sink another considerable chunk of cash into the hobby in order to build a decent sized force.

The other thing that I find myself thinking now when buying minis is that I'm getting more and more loathe at the prospect of buying GW minis simply because of the image and the way GW are perceived as a business. Do I really want to give my money to a company if I think it doesn't give a toss about me as a gamer or as a consumer?

I tend to graviate towards PP and Rackham of late because I feel that they support all players and armies equally - all factions get new minis, they produce new and interesting background and theres a sense that the game world is actually progressing in terms of depth as well as producing regualr errate and rules clarifications. I'm no fanboy and I play all 3 games pretty reguarly but for me GW has just lost that fluffy,caring magical sparkle it once had.

Just my 2 pence

gOOmba
23-05-2007, 22:54
GW gouges Canadians on almost everything, im not sure where they get the extra 5-10 dollars on everything in the conversion

none of this includes our extorsionist tax rates

eg: a PP warpack for hordes is 50$ american and 60$ canadian, everything from PP is priced the same way

gears of war (or any 360 game brand new) is 59.99$ usd and 69.99$ cdn

You can follow that pattern for everything we get from the US, food/movies/music/toys/minatures whatever

meanwhile a tactical squad is 35$ usd and 45$ cdn
a box of metal chaos knights is 50$ usd and 65$ cdn

I guess if something is made by GW it's just plain worth more, the price on those wraiths is even more ridiculous

and yes, Privateer Press is cheaper here in Canada not only on an army to army basis but on a model to model basis.... and PP models are all metal.

Morris
23-05-2007, 23:04
The only difference is that GW have changed things into Plastic. Otherwise they are steadily raising prices to evermore rediculous levels.

I mean, you get the warjacks and stuff from privateer, they are huge and fantastically modelled!!

Shimmergloom
23-05-2007, 23:17
One more note on the scale of warhammer games.

In older edition rulebooks, they had notes on scale. Saying that if you scaled up exactly then you'd have to play in parking lots with your minis in order to get the shooting phase right. So instead of doing that shooting was scaled down.

But that otherwise 1 inch on the tabletop = roughly 10yds in the real world.

So from my understanding of that wording, I figured for every 20mm base, it's roughly 8yds by 8yds in real life real estate.

So how many elf spearmen can fit in an 8x8yd space? How many goblins? That's how I see each rank and file model. So I figure there's 40-50 goblins for each goblin mini I have on the table. Goblins would probably pack in, crawling all over each other, undisiplined. Elfs would be shoulder to shoulder, so it's probably 20 elves on each model.

I see war machines as each machine really being a battery of machines.

Other things such as characters and giant monsters, I do feel are more on the 1:1 scale.

Gaebriel
24-05-2007, 02:07
I think there are many possible means of comparing GW-models to Privateer and Rackham,

Avenue #1 : how much do I pay for a complete playing experience? Here's where the system's standard game size kicks in.

Avenue #2 : how much do I pay for single collector's model? This is where the individual preference of sculpting style and material kicks in.

Avenue #3 : how is the availability of the system? Including the number of possible opponents and places to play.

There are probably more.

Each and every of these points is heavily down to personal taste, so each and every argument made in threads like these is IMHO and "I think" at best. I guess the fact that all of these companies find customers proves the point.

Oh, and I wouldn't touch a pure plastic model with a ten-foot pole - again that's strictly me...

On the topic of Warhammer scale - it's really weird. Either you have 1:1, as implicated by all non-rank&file models (characters, unit champions, etc), or an implied unit size only represented, but then you better not remove single models... Though I guess it comes down to personal preference - I'll rather not use units of four single knights, who are by all game mechanics treated as four knights - but I'll gladly use units of four models that are supposed to represent hundreds, and treated that way...

"Warhammer troopers always die in increments of 10" :p

catbarf
24-05-2007, 03:11
Is everyone forgetting inflation? True, prices go up, because pewter is rising in cost and plastic casting uses petroleum products, but everything costs more nowadays.

grickherder
24-05-2007, 03:54
We're definitely in inflationary times. All commodities have gone up drastically in price over the last 5 years. Some companies are better than others at mitigating those costs and not having to pass them on to their customers. I remember when Old Glory (historical manufacturer) raised their prices during a run in the tin price. When the price stabilized, they lowered their price back down.

Everything does cost a lot more these days. And you can't trust the government CPI numbers because the gov is on the hook for union deals, pension benefits, and other costs that increase if the CPI goes up. That's why they are so heavily adjusted and constantly change the way inflation is measured. Here's a graph comparing how the CPI is calculated now with how it was calculated before Clinton:

http://www.shadowstats.com/imgs/chartSGS01-31.gif

Neither GW's nor Rackham's prices seem that out of line if we accept a real inflation value pushing 6% a year. Which is what it was before the government "redefined" the CPI.

Thommy H
24-05-2007, 09:58
Your stats are a little American-centric considering we're talking about mostly European companies, grickherder.

I can't bring any economic knowledge to bear here, but it's been said many times that GW's price rises (in the UK at least) are way above the rate of inflation.

PP and Rackham haven't really been around long enough to bump their prices up much (as far as I know) so any argument about inflation is obviously irrelevant when applied to them.

grickherder
24-05-2007, 10:28
Quite true, those stats are American centric. I myself am a Canadian who deals in the import-export business with the US, so American inflation and currency issues are of professional interest to me. You can see the reduction of purchasing power of the USD against pretty much every world currency-- it's down against the CAD, against the Euro against the GBP. But the price of oil, metals, agricultural commodities are outstripping the weakening of the USD.

The equivilant of the CPI for various countries is calculated using similar "modern" economic ideas. Hedonic adjustments, substitution clauses, etc., all point to one fact: the CPI is not the price of a basket of goods that can measure inflation that it is purported to be. I think you'll find a similar chart in most parts of the world. Europe has had more stability in prices than the US by far (the Euro hasn't dropped upwards of 35-40% in value over the last 5 years like the USD has).

You are quite right about PP and Rackham not being around that long. As for GW's price rises being way above the rate of inflation, I'd agree. I've used that very fact in discussions myself. However, now that I understand inflation to be the expansion of money and credit rather than rising prices (the symptom of inflation that is most easily recognizable), I can see that the newly available money flows into various prices, usually led by non-essential goods, energy and raw materials.

Things like objects of art, collectibles, stamps, coins, and consumer non-essentials should rise first along with the price of energy and raw commodities. I think they have. I also think that is exactly where miniature manufacturers fit. And unlike electronics manufacturers, miniatures companies are generally not yet taking full advantage of the lower cost of production and higher efficiency of exporting their manufacturing to China or India-- kudos to them for that. It's not like a country is helped in the long run by exporting manufacturing jobs. So we have miniatures getting the first wave of inflation without the help of cheap foreign labor and mass production that gives us $20-30 dvd players.

In short it's a matter of GW recognizing the availability of additional funds for miniatures and raising their prices. I think they've gone way, way too far (as evidenced by the layoffs and closing of stores) but it's understandable from a business perspective that they needed to raise them until they found the sweet spot that generated the most revenue possible.

Sorry for getting into "economics talk" on a miniatures forum, but inflation is an issue. The symptom of inflation is rising prices and we've got rising prices from GW, Rackham and PP. Rackham has always been pricey, but has gone up (mostly because of the strengthening of the Euro vs USD) and PP recently had a large price increase across their product line.

This brings us back to that subjective notion of value. Which companies are producing figures that you value at current prices? However, I think we can also objectively say that GW's prices have hit a point where it is directly impacting their sales. They've gone beyond trying to get the maximum possible per unit sold and have encountered some elasticity (and resistance and dropping sales). We can also objectively say that PP's prices are still such that sales are increasing. I'm not sure about Rackham though-- don't know enough about them.

Another question when bringing inflation into the mix, is the simple question of whether or not we should expect non-essential items to have the same changes in price as essential items. I don't think we should. While I dislike that GW's prices are so high, I'm glad that inflation hasn't flowed into food prices quite so drastically yet.

Morris
24-05-2007, 10:33
I can't bring any economic knowledge to bear here, but it's been said many times that GW's price rises (in the UK at least) are way above the rate of inflation.



Inflation 1%.... GW pricerise 20% every 3 years. Go figure...

grickherder
24-05-2007, 10:58
Inflation 1%.... GW pricerise 20% every 3 years. Go figure...

You must be using some sort of adjusted CPI number to come up with 1% inflation. Like the core CPI rate in the US that cuts out food, energy and housing. Inflation can be made to look far lower than it is, and when you're on the hook for union cost of living wage increases, pension plan increases, and other "inflation" adjusted costs, it makes sense to convince the public to accept a lower number.

GW's price increases are way over the inflation rate of essential goods. And they're reaping what they're sowing-- 35 stores closing (and counting?).

Bombot
24-05-2007, 11:07
Inflation is not 1%.

For the UK, over the last 20 years (so more or less 40k's lifespan), the price of things has basically doubled. That works out as inflation of, on average, 3.5%.

Morris
24-05-2007, 14:31
Even if it is 3.5% a year, that is a heavy price rise. Dreads are REALLY expensive now.

I like privateer stuff more, pity it aint so popular.

dancingmonkey
24-05-2007, 19:16
In my mind, it comes down ot what I'm willing to pay.

Back in the day, GW could do no wrong and I would gladly buy anything they produced for the things I was interested. These days, I don't like what they do so I don't buy.

PP produce zombie pirates , I like zombie pirates, I buy zombie pirates...

Rackham make loverly models, they are a little brittle for my tastes though., so I only buy a little bit of rackham. Plus I don't know anyone else who plays in guernsey (bar my mate dave) so ther is little real incentive to play.

In terms of magazines, I buy all three companies mags, No Quarter is the best, Cry havoc has some really great scenery and painting ideas, plus the translations really crack me up, so I will pay £15 to read it,(the cards are a nice bonus too!) WD to me currently is a crack habit. I know its really bad for me, but its been with me so long I can't give it up. I have every issue since 188, which I have read so many times now its silly. (I read it every time I came back to the island during uni, just for the amazing battle report.

BAsically I can afford to buy whatever I want most months, and trust me when I say I can always justify moer models. At this stage, my GW thirst has been slaked (due to my staff dicount!) but my need for PP and rackham has onlyjust started.

GW models just are not of a high enough quality/ detail in my mind anymore,m which is why my shelves are full of classic orcs and empire, not shiny new ones, and my hordes of cryx and rackham wolves.

I agree the hobby is expensive, but as mentioned, what isn't. Its a matter of weighing up your need vs spare cash, and deciding if the stuff you buy is of a good enough quality to justify the expenditure.

Crazy Harborc
25-05-2007, 01:56
For myself, I agree that inflation does appear to have doubled prices on much we need (food, housing, clothing etc) to survive. Catch 22 is that GW has doubled it's prices in the last 10 years. Inflation 20 years to double, GW 10 years....ummm.

clovis
25-05-2007, 07:54
You have to take in account that house marked has increased dramaticly in the last 10 years, this had of course a huge impact on the the rent market also. In some area the lease has increased by a 100% in the last 7years. I'm talking about France mainly but the figures show the same trend for the rest of western Europe.So to say tha GW has been hugely impacted as they have prime location. Just my 2ct;)

pug
25-05-2007, 23:16
I have been skimming through this thread so sorry if this point has already been mentioned.

People have been saying Rackam is cheaper because confrontation requires less figures.

I feel you can't compare WFB to CONF as they are different kind of games.

Compare WFB to Ragnarok by Rackam these are two "battle" games. I think you will find collecting a RAG army alot more expensive.

By the way I collect, play and support all 3 companies so I am only comparing the opinions in front of me. So Im not attacking or defending anyone.

grickherder
26-05-2007, 01:07
pug, you're quite right. That has been raised a lot in the past as well.

There are different ways of determining what is value to you. It could be the total cost of the gaming experience, or the cost per miniature. Or some other factor. You can slice it one way or another and get the result you're looking for.

But math is fairly objective. We can compare cost per figure and cost per complete game and get a good idea of where the chips fall. But that's just data that we then evaluate to make a purchasing decision-- again, subjective value.

I have GW stuff and Privateer Press stuff. I don't have Rackham stuff. I find I can't paint them sufficiently well to do the figures justice. I don't enjoy painting them because I don't like my results. Other people do. Great for them. To me, Rackham is over priced and too nice. Same with Corvus Belli's Infinity miniatures.

I do far better with scale realism (GW's LOTR miniatures) than with Rackham's artistic look. Probably from my time spent building scale models as a child. I still haven't learned/unlearned/relearned enough to really get into the comic/artsy stylings of other figures. I find Privateer Press to be in the middle. Along with some of GW's stuff-- though GW's stuff is more on the cartoon side of things.

Stella Cadente
26-05-2007, 09:55
lets see ahall we, what can you get for £25 from GW and from PP (for warmachine)

GW-I can get a dreadnough, or a tanks, can I play with straight away without spending another £100?.....HELL NO

now from PP-I can get a starter box of 4 metal models, can I play with it straight away without spending another £100.....HELL YES, i comes with rules and cards and everything you need

so GW can take a running jump price wise

Hellebore
26-05-2007, 10:09
lets see ahall we, what can you get for £25 from GW and from PP (for warmachine)

GW-I can get a dreadnough, or a tanks, can I play with straight away without spending another £100?.....HELL NO

now from PP-I can get a starter box of 4 metal models, can I play with it straight away without spending another £100.....HELL YES, i comes with rules and cards and everything you need

so GW can take a running jump price wise

Er, that is a pretty bad example.

25 pounds is ~$70 Australian. You can get 20 cadians and some heavy weapons for that.

So 4 metal models for the cost of 22 plastic ones?

You built a strawman by purposefully choosing a faulty example from GW.

Can you play with 22 cadians? Yes, it's called combat patrol.

GW models though are very expensive (especially as TGiA says earlier refarding models with rules that are subpar, like Phoenix guard et al).

I would say that Citadel minitaures are (compared to other manufacturers) on the high side of price, but the Warhammer GAME is VERY expensive, because the game dictates what you need. And in Warhammer, you need alot to have a good game.

There really are only a few ways to make money with miniatures:

1: Few models, high cost
2: Lots of models, lower cost
3: some models, medium cost

GW designed games that require a heavy investment, which means if they do their jobs right, they get a good return on a single customer. This is why the SG aren't that popular with them - they have few models and don't require more (you can't play a BB game with 20 a side for example, too tricky) and charge 'standard' GW rates for them (ie they don't use the PP method of expensive but few).

The specialist Games would probably make more money for GW if they were all in Inquisitor scale - at least, BB, NECRO, and MORD. These give the least return per customer, EPIC and WM have greater scope so end up requiring more of an investment than the previous games.

BFG is a weird one, because it has a design similar to BB et al, but has the scope of EPIC. So it straddles both.

Hellebore

Stella Cadente
26-05-2007, 11:18
Er, that is a pretty bad example.

25 pounds is ~$70 Australian. You can get 20 cadians and some heavy weapons for that.

So 4 metal models for the cost of 22 plastic ones?

You built a strawman by purposefully choosing a faulty example from GW.

Can you play with 22 cadians? Yes, it's called combat patrol.


I didn't think it a bad example, since not even 22 cadians is legal, and CP has to still follow some rules, its too few men to make a platoon, and the only other thing is 2 armoured fist squads, so that requires more money

and also its only 120+pts, so its the same as a dread, there are many more things OBVIOUSLY but I was not going to list them all

and I don't know anybody that still plays combat patrol, so I never thought of it

HOWEVER with £25 you can get a legal good force for LOTR:D

Hellebore
26-05-2007, 11:25
EDIT: you are right about the cadians, as they need to be taken in a platoon (and to take armoured fist squads you need a chimera).

Ok, what about 16 gaunts and a biovore? That's 2 troop choices (2x8 gaunts).

Look I'm not disagreeing that you need alot of miniatures to play the standard game, but you listed 1 dreadnought vs 4 metal models, when you can easily get ~20 models vs 4 models (whether you can play with them or not).


Hellebore

The game is afoot
26-05-2007, 11:29
25 pounds is ~$70 Australian. .

No it's not, Check your math, £25 quid is actually $60.57 Aussie dollars thats almost ten dollars cut off your budget.
You won't be able to buy that much gear.

Gaebriel
26-05-2007, 11:31
On a note : I wouldn't mind high cost on expanding a game, as long as it had a realistic starting cost, so about €50.00 max.

With GW I have the problem I can not easily recommend the games, at least not with the cost for a standard force of 1,500/2,000, which is the most played. The cost rules out the casually interested in my eyes.

Hellebore
26-05-2007, 11:34
It depends on the exchange rate (obviously) which is why I put the ~ in front of the number. The Aus dollar has been as low as 2.8 and as high as 2.2.

Of course, comparatively the price doesn't matter (I was using it to make it easier for me to figure out) because the dollar value will effect how much I can spend on PP stuff as well...

Hellebore

The game is afoot
26-05-2007, 11:36
Thats true, is the PP product proving to be quite pricey in the Aussie market?

Hellebore
26-05-2007, 11:43
I'm not sure, because I tend to only buy from an online retailer in Australia who discounts their stuff (but different stuff for different products - GW is 10% less than retail). I'm not sure what the 'rrp' of PP stuff is, I've only got the figures they give on PP (http://www.milsims.com.au/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=108_164&sort=20a&page=2&zenid=mb28spibiustd23gu87pmpj9v4) compared to the GW (http://www.milsims.com.au/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=108_167_176&zenid=mb28spibiustd23gu87pmpj9v4)
stuff.

Hellebore

Morris
26-05-2007, 12:41
Right:
£18 - Marine Tactical Squad - 2 Troops
£10 - Marine Commander

At best a 300 point army.

Privateer Press:
£28 can buy you one of the biggest most insanely well sculpeted 'miniatures' you will ever witness. OR, it can buy you 4 big warjacks, or you can get a load of infantry...

If you go to Ral Partha for that £28 you can buy TWO, yes TWO full dragons.

Hellebore
26-05-2007, 12:57
Well this thread wasn't started to discuss quality, so much as cost.

You've just said GW gives you 11 models for 28 pounds, or you could get 1 big miniature or 4 medium sized ones for the same price from PP.

You can get a predator for 25 pounds.

Couldn't you get 22 cadians for 28 pounds?

We've already agreed that the Warhammer GAMES are expensive, this thread is asking about how the cost of their miniatures stacks up against other companys'.

The fact that you need more miniatures for one over the other doesn't affect how much each model costs.

Hellebore

Thommy H
26-05-2007, 15:07
The problem is that comparing the costs of metal and plastic figures is comparing apples and oranges.

GW can be cheaper if you buy sensibly, because you have the option for multi-part plastics. So you can get a good sized Space Marine army for decent(ish) money, but you can't replicte that with Grey Knights or, for that matter, with Privateer Press or Rackham since they only produce metal figures. It's a slightly different business model.

So let's remove plastics from the equation. We're never going to get anywhere if we compare a company that produces the bulk of its rank and file with plastic to one which makes everything in metal. Of course the latter will be more expensive 9 times out of 10: they're producing a different product.

So:

A Warhammer 40,000 Imperial Guard Commissar has a RRP of £6 according to Games Workshop's website.

A comparable figure (in design and size) might be Kommander Irusk from the Khador Warmachine line - RRP £5.

However, all PP figures are 'special characters', and GW has a habit of charging a premium on their own special characters. Stiicking with the Commissar theme then we'll look at Yarrick - RRP £8.

So we're looking at a saving of £3 (or £1 for a basic Commissar) for what amounts to the same basic product. I don't play Warmachine so I don't know how useful Kommander Irusk is to a Khador force; I suspect not as useful as Yarrick is to an Imperial Guard one in 40K, and I would also contest in this example that Yarrick is actually a better figure (and usually I prefer PP's stuff).

Now, there's nothing very Commissar-y in Rackham's line, so we'll use a new example:

A Daemonhunter Inquisitor will set you back £8 on GW's online store.

A comparable model, in thematic and visual terms, might be a Griffin Inquisitor (I use this example because it's a model I've considered basing a DH force around before) - this has a RRP of £6, according to the webstore I use (they charge less for it though - £5.40). Looking at the model too, and knowing Rackham's style, it's probably bigger and more detailed, making the price difference even more interesting.

So, just a couple of random examples there. By no means a definitive look at what's available, but if I can come up with comparrisons that reflect this badly on GW in five minutes of searching, it's probably indicative of a wider trend.

Hellebore
26-05-2007, 15:19
Those are good points.

I agree that it isn't the best idea to compare plastic and metal models.

The problem I think is that GW's focus IS on plastic. We should also do a plastic comparison, it's only fair.

Do PP or Rackham do plastics?

I don't think it's 'fair' to compare one small (and metal models are a pretty small section of GW miniatures these days) section of miniatures with another company that sells all of them in metal.

Because GW's focus is plastic, the plastics are their 'cheap' models. PP and Rackham don't do that, so they have to make 'cheap' metal miniatures.

In the end, I suppose it would have to be a combination of cost per PLAYING PIECE and cost per 'FORCE' (a collection of pieces to use in the game).

Warmachine is quite expensive on a per gaming piece scale, but not so much on a per force scale. GW is somewhat the opposite.

Hellebore

generulpoleaxe
26-05-2007, 16:24
carnifex £25

aberation prime from rackham £18, far more detailed with just as many accesories.

both are similar size and plastic.

Bloodknight
26-05-2007, 20:27
I remember some WM or Confro cavalry where 3 guys cost 40 Euros. On a per model base these are very expensive, GW hybrid knights are about 8€ per model, plastic knights about 3€.

generulpoleaxe
26-05-2007, 23:54
umran khal is £18 (orc on metal monstrous mount)
if you want something from gw like that it's £20 for a metal character on a metal boar or £20 for a metal character on a plastic dragon.

gw only seems cheaper because of it's average-poor quality plastic figures.
if you want the quality stuff from gw then you are paying a slightly higher price than equivalents from rackham and pp.

this is because gw bump the price up of products they know they will sell less of. why not, people pay it.

KITS AND BITS
27-05-2007, 00:51
hmmm Just a thought for the evening , are the boards that are dedicated to PP and Rackam full of people who do nothing but slag of the PP and rackham models or is that just unique to these GW boards ????
whats the point bitching about GW vs everone else prices ? if your not happy with buying GW products ay what ever price then dont buy them ! if you prefer PP ro Rackham or anyone else , then spend your money with them !

am i the only one who finds it strange that even though loads of posters on these boards seem to say they hate GW , yet they cant seem to stop posting on a board dedicated to the GW hobby ?
as a hobby i think 40k and warhammer is quite cheap , look at other options like , playstation 3 , you spend £400 just for the console , then its like £50 a game in the uk ,plus you need a tv to play it on .
hobbies cost alot of money , so why it comes as a shock to some of you that GW charge more than its competitors shocks me ? do PP or Rackham have a massive international network of hobby shops with uhndreds of employees to serve you ?

no ,thats why GW charge more , because they have more overheads ,but no one is making you buy anything from GW

generulpoleaxe
27-05-2007, 01:05
people aren't slagging of gw mate, they are giving factual comparisons.

i like parts of most manufacturers lines, doesn't mean i will defend them all or slag them all off.

please don't try and turn this into an anti gw thing, as it's not.

KnightoNi1894
27-05-2007, 08:27
hobbies cost alot of money , so why it comes as a shock to some of you that GW charge more than its competitors shocks me ? do PP or Rackham have a massive international network of hobby shops with uhndreds of employees to serve you ?

no ,thats why GW charge more , because they have more overheads ,but no one is making you buy anything from GW

You know, it boggles my mind when people seem to think that corperate incompetancy is a validation for GW to charge higher prices. When a store isn't profitable, the store shuts down. The "massive international netowrk of hobby shops with uhndreds of employees to serve you" need to be profitable without making people who don't use them, or even care if they exist, pay for them. Walmart doesn't charge higher prices because there are so many walmarts. They charge lower ones. GW is the manufacturer. Each hobby shop should be self sutaining, because they're getting the product at far less than wholesale. That means it's easier for them to make the bottom line than the independant retailer who gets the worst discount on GW products than any other products that are generally carried in their shops.

Now, if you want an honest price compairison between GW products and PP products, here it is.

Generals
Captain Victoria Haley $7
Privateer Captain Phinneus Shae $10
Chaplain Xavier $11
The High Reclaimer $12
Chaplain $12
Epic Allister Cain $15
Commander $15
Chief Librarian Tigurius $17
Thagrosh, Prophet of Everblight $18
Ork Warboss $18
Tyrnat Xerxis $19
Captain Lysander $20
Necron Destroyer Lord $25
Chaplain Grimaldus and Retinue $30
Demon Prince $35
Harbringer of Menoth $35
Captain Darius $40
Hive Tyrant $45
Kommander Karchev $45
Greater Demon $50

Troops
Goblins $30/$1.50 per model
Skaven $35/$1.75 per model
Cadian Shock Troopers Squad $35/$2.19 per model
Khorne Beserkers $35/$2.92 per model
Eldar Guardians $30/$3 per model
Chaos Space Marines $25/$3.13 per model
Ork Grotz $10/$3.33 per model
Cadian Kasarkin Squad $40/$4 per model
Mercenary Privateer Seadogs $25/$4.17 per model
Chaos Emperors Children $35/$4.37 per model
Skaven Stormvermin $45/$4.50 per model
Menoth Flameguard Cleansors $28/$4.67
Chaos Death Guard $35/$5 per model
Menoth Exemplar Errant $30/$5 per model
Cygnar Sword Knights $32/$5.33 per model
Cygnar Stormsmiths $17/$5.67 per model
Grey Knights $30/$6 per model
Mercenary Privateer Riflemen $6
Cygnar Storm Guard $37/$6.16 per model
Cygnar Stormblades $40/$6.67 per model
Ogre Bulls $40/$6.67 per model
Chaos Posessed $35/$7 per model
Temple Flameguard Unit Attachment $15/$7.50 per model
Screamers of Tzeentch $40/$8 per model
Cygnar Trencher Grenade Porter $8
Cygnar Stormblade Unit Attachment $17/$8.50 per model
Chaos Raptors $45/$9 per model
Terminators $50/$10 per model
Mercenary Privateer First Mate Hawk $10
Grey Knight Terminators $55/$11 per model
Chaos Terminator $12
Skorne Cataphract Accurii $50/$12.50 per model
Legion Warmongers $40/$13.33 per model
Cadian Heavy Weapons Team $13
Skorne Cataphract Centuri $55/$13.75 per model
Khador Man-o-wars $45/$15 per model
Necron Wraith $17
Cryx Bloat Thrall $18
Tomb King Utshabi $20

Cavalry/Bikes/Light Jacks/Light Vehicles/Artillery
Knights of Bretonnia $35/$4.37 per model
Empire Pistolliers $22/$4.40 per model
Cryx Deathrippers $16/$8 per model
Bretonnian Questing Knights $50/$10 per model
Cygnar Charger $13
Pegasis Knight $15
Chaos Bikes $15
IG Heavy Weapons Teams $15
Cygnar Lancer $15
Cryx Soul Hunter $45/$15 per model
Cygnar Trencher Chain Gun $15
Legion Raptors $50/$16.67 per model
Protectorate Deliverer Sunburst $17
Cygnar Storm Lances $52/$17.33 per model
Skorne Ferrox Cavalry $53/$17.67 per model
Dragon Ogre $20
Khador Winger Guard Field Gun Crew $20
Dwarf Cannon $20
Protectorate Exemplar Vengers $60/$20 per model
Necron Destroyer $20
Dark Elf Repeater Bolt Thrower $22
Empire Cannon $25
IG Sentinel $25
Bretonnian Fay Enchantress $30
Dwarf Grudge Thrower $30
Land Speeder $30
Gnoblar Scrap Launcher $35
Privateer Commadore Cannon and Crew
Dark Eldar Raider $35
Bretonnian Trebuchet $40
King Louen Leoncoeur $40
Dark Elf War Hydra $45


Heavy Jacks/Warbeasts/Tanks
Cygnar Ironclad $25
Cygnar Stormclad $28
Circle Pureblood Warpwolf $30
Cygnar Centurian $32
Space Marine Predator/Whirlwind/Dreadnought $40
Skorne Bronzback Titan $45
Space Marine Vindicator $45
Space Marine Venerable Dreadnought $50
Khador Behemoth
Space Marine Land Raider/Necron Monolith $55
Space Marine Land Raider Crusader $60
Empire Steam Tank $65

Now, looking at that list, not just showing the cheapest models available for GW vs any PP model, you see that GW and PP both sell their models at a range of prices. Looking at each category, and I think I've split them fairly, GW has the highest price in them all. Admittedly, PP only has the lowest price in the heavy jack/warbeast/tank category, and the generals category, but they're certainly not the most expensive.

PP doesn't have the cheapest prices, per model, but when you're introducing a new person to a game they don't generaly ask how much it's going to cost to play the game, per model. They ask how much it costs to play the game, period. To take a PP game to 500 it'll cost you between $100 and $150, including the rules. Yes, that's a whole lot less models than you'd use in a 1500 point game of Warhammer 40k, but the play time is about the same. To get the 1500 point army of Warhammer 40k, you'll looking at $300-$400, at least.

In the end, you'll spend what you want on your chosen game. Neither game is really cheap, but $100-$150 is a hellova lot easier to swallow than $300-$400 when you're looking at a new army/getting into the game.

Knight

The game is afoot
27-05-2007, 08:38
In the end, you'll spend what you want on your chosen game. Neither game is really cheap, but $100-$150 is a hellova lot easier to swallow than $300-$400 when you're looking at a new army/getting into the game.

Excellent well thought out and presented post.
I think you have hit the nail on the head in your summarising paragraph.
From entry to first complete army you have accurately assessed the costs.

How would this cost be affected by introducing the necessary rulebooks to play the game?

lord_blackfang
27-05-2007, 09:07
To summarize this thread:

1) GW's most expensive figures are more expensive than PP's and Rackham's cheapest figures. Shame on you, GW.

2) Buying a 50-model army from GW is more expensive than buying a 10-model army from PP or Rackham. Shame on you, GW.

Thommy H
27-05-2007, 15:08
To summarize this thread:

1) GW's most expensive figures are more expensive than PP's and Rackham's cheapest figures. Shame on you, GW.

2) Buying a 50-model army from GW is more expensive than buying a 10-model army from PP or Rackham. Shame on you, GW.

Haha - this is exactly what I meant about apples and oranges. Even though they're in the same industry, each of these companies is really operating froma different business model. It would be insane for PP to produce plastic figures given that you can build a viable force with a dozen (or less?) models - they'd never make any money.

However, for me, someone who is primarily a collector of individual models for display purposes, I'm generally more inclined to pay PP and Rackham prices for the product I'm getting than GW ones. The things I buy (character models) just tend to be cheaper from other manufacturers.

redbaron998
27-05-2007, 16:01
Not reading through more than the first page so beware.

I view Warhammer as a Battle system, though that doesnt mean the entire battle is right there on your board. The force is sent to a pinnacle place by their leader (thus the high ranking characters). Thats why its better to think, " Of course my 2k battle isnt for the planet, castle, etc... its a part of it. Thus enters campaignes. Where your character takes his personal contingent to where the fighting is more fierce.

Anyways thats just my viewpoint

I used to also think that GW is so overpriced...which they still are and if they keep it up they will run themsleves down. But look at it this way. To buy a Ps3 costs $600 dollars, for that you dont even have anything to play, you have to dish out another $60 for a game. A 360 is the same thing (or better if you ask me haha) but for $400. And again you must buy games. You play teh game for a month or a few then get another.

A average 2k 40k army will fun about anywhere between 400-600$ and then its just paint and glue and such. You have enough painting to last you (depending on your speed) a few months at least. Then you get to play and play and its never really get old. And if you want you can always sell your army for a nice pretty penny.

So its really not THAT bad. Its another way to invest your money. Again a Movie at a theater now runes $9.25 for 1 around me. Thats around 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours of entertainment. The average battle is at least 3+....

So you can take your own conclusions from that

efarrer
27-05-2007, 16:02
To summarize this thread:

1) GW's most expensive figures are more expensive than PP's and Rackham's cheapest figures. Shame on you, GW.

2) Buying a 50-model army from GW is more expensive than buying a 10-model army from PP or Rackham. Shame on you, GW.

I don't think so.

To your first point as was addressed in several of the last posts the prices are not GW's most expensive to the competition's cheapest. They are typically trying to compare equivalent models. Biggest plastic kit for Rackham the carnifex sized abomination prime is 25.00 euro compared to the 35 euro carnifex.


The most recent posts were attampting to show that price ranges within the various comapnies were pretty similar except GW requires considerably more investment to make it playable. You are buying a game, thus the number of models you need to buy is relevant.

Warjacks which compare so nicely in size to a dreadnaught that one was used one at a major canadian event as a nurgle dread, are at worst similar in price.

Prices between these three companies when comparing similar models do reveal GW is more expensive on it's best metals, but generally chaeper on it's lesser metals, but and this is the important part the other companies which have similar play times are cheaper at the entry level. It's not about GW hate, it is simply the truth.

You can try to say combat/border patrol is the equivalent to confrontation or warmachine but it isn't. The lesser games are not really balanced to play correctly and more importantly restrict you from using the more interesting choices. Games workshop games are designed to be big fast moving games (theorectically) that require lots of minatures. Attempting to play either of the patrol games requires a nuetering of the system, the smaller confrontation and warmachine don't get nuetered in that way. For that matter GW does produce a game with reasonable costs and a dynamic system, but enough about Lord of the Rings the only GW game with a lower figure count.

Thommy H
27-05-2007, 19:02
To buy a Ps3 costs $600 dollars, for that you dont even have anything to play, you have to dish out another $60 for a game. A 360 is the same thing (or better if you ask me haha) but for $400. And again you must buy games. You play teh game for a month or a few then get another.

I'd contest, for one thing, that a games console depreciates in cost over time - a PS3 will not cost me the equivelant of $600 forever; within a year it might be half that, or even less. In addition, once that initial investment is made, and assuming I have a game with suitable replay value, I never need to shell out again. Miniatures gaming is a hobby that requires a more-or-less constant investment of funds, as well as someone else to play against (who you may have to travel to meet with...). So saying that an army cost £x is actually not even the whole story: someone else needs to but a similarly sized army, there needs to be a venue, terrain, rulebooks, dice, tea and biscuits...

The point being that comparing across hobbies is not a great argument, IMO. Different hobbies require different investments of time and money and, in fact, GW games in particular require a particular investment in time and money that, say, my way of being a part of this hobby doesn't.

Comparing raw prices of comparable products generally shows GW coming off worst and comparing the total outlay required shows the same, simply given the scale of GW's games. I'd argue that £8 for a single 30mm-ish figure is a little bit expensive, but that's what GW asks for an Inquisitor. I paid a similar price (£7.20 with a 10% online saving) for a Skorne Warlock that stands head-and-shoulders above a 28mm scale figure, so it's clear that I got better value there I think.

But, ultimatley, GW's pricing is not consistent anyway. Eldrad costs something like £10 now, doesn't he? That's obscene, as is £8 for Yarrick. At least, with another company, I feel like I'm getting reasonably consistent value for money.

Disclaimer: I have a couple of 40K, WHFB and Epic armies, and I'm nominally a player of GW games, but most of my collecting is limited to character models that represent an urban fantasy roleplaying game I'm part of which means I mostly buy modern, sci-fi and some generic fantasy figures - vampires, demons and so forth. GW's settings are essentially useless to me so, even if I like a figure, it's generally not going to get bought because GW's figures are inseperable from their IPs. As a result, I naturally tend to favour miniature companies that make figures that are more generic.

grickherder
27-05-2007, 22:05
Thommy H, you make some good points.

Crazy Harborc
27-05-2007, 22:18
IMHO, the people who prefer using minies instead of what is basicly a portable TV screen to play wargames will think the minies cost less. The people who prefer GW products will find all kinds of reasons to prefer GW's goodies.

I was and am a wargamer.....GW is just one of the companies I buy from. The fact that Rackham and PP cost almost/more/the same/less than GW is moot. There are quite a few good quality minies makers out there. Historical and fantasy gaming rules and minies abound.

GW is (for now) the biggest company producing the largest variety of stuff for the hobby of wargaming. The hobby of wargaming IS NOT a big deal as potental markets go. Maybe, oh, 5/6 million gamers world wide. By the by, a few months ago GW claimed it had/has 750,000 players/gamers world wide. That's out of how many billion people?;)

Gaebriel
28-05-2007, 00:24
h...
am i the only one who finds it strange that even though loads of posters on these boards seem to say they hate GW , yet they cant seem to stop posting on a board dedicated to the GW hobby ?
...

Criticizing is part of an honest dealing with every topic. It may be hard to believe, but the majority of people who criticise (moan, bitch, swear) about GW on here, love the hobby next to none. Others who will have dropped GW may be still interested in the company's dealings. Still others will not want to drop a perfect forum community just becuse they began to disagree with the core of the 'hobby'.

I think those who intentionally come here to decry GW are a minority.

grickherder
28-05-2007, 00:53
It may be hard to believe, but the majority of people who criticise (moan, bitch, swear) about GW on here, love the hobby next to none.

Exactly. I absolutely adore most of the LOTR miniatures (even if I don't love the rules). I love 40k fluff and lurking in that forum (and occasionally even posting there). But having positive feelings about those things doesn't mean I have to love everything unquestioningly and neither do points I raise about things I don't like mean I can't appreciate the things I do.

lord_blackfang
28-05-2007, 07:23
I don't think so.

To your first point as was addressed in several of the last posts the prices are not GW's most expensive to the competition's cheapest. They are typically trying to compare equivalent models. Biggest plastic kit for Rackham the carnifex sized abomination prime is 25.00 euro compared to the 35 euro carnifex.

Have you seen one in person? That thing is nowhere near the size of a Carnifex.

Also, very few people have made fair comparisons. First, GW's plastics are for some reason disqualified. Then the most expensive single models (special characters) are compared to PP's run-of-the-mill leader models, and found to be more expensive. And because the first 10 models from GW don't allow you to play a game (since for some reason Necromunda and Mordheim don't count, despite being far better comparisons to WM or Confrontation than the main systems are) but the first 10 models from PP do (never mind that they cost more) a conclusion is drawn that PP and Rackham are better deals.

Thommy H
28-05-2007, 16:05
Also, very few people have made fair comparisons. First, GW's plastics are for some reason disqualified.

Well, I've outlined my argument about the plastics. It's a different product, and a different business model as a result. It's like saying that Nintendo is better because they make better Mario games or something (to use the video game analogy from earlier). If you're using something that only GW does (more or less) as part of the argument then of course they'll come off better. No other company (or at least not the ones talked about in this thread) are producing any plastics - or at least not ones for the same purposes, or that you have to assemble/paint*.

It's comparing apples and oranges because, yeah, I can get ten plastic Space Marines for £18, which I can't do with PP or Rackham because they don't produce plastics like that. There's just no basis for a one-to-one comparrison.


Then the most expensive single models (special characters) are compared to PP's run-of-the-mill leader models, and found to be more expensive.

See, I find this interesting too. Why should I pay more for a figure because it's more useful in the game? Assuming the quality, mass and materials are essentially the same, there's no excuse for Yarrick to cost more than a regular Commissar. Okay, sometimes the scuplting may be superior in the instance of special characters, but I don't think that's a blanket rule that justifies a £2 increase in cost for these guys.

Again, I'm not generally using figures to play the games their designed for, which means that if I'm buying a special character, I'm losing out because GW slaps a mark-up on it for the special rules in its Codex apparently. That's a bit crazy to me.



*Don't get me started on AT-43 - the prices for that pre-painted crap are insane. I refuse to even acknowledge them for the purposes of this debate because I'd pay less for something painted in a factory but apparently Rackham thinks it makes them worth more.

lord_blackfang
28-05-2007, 16:18
They may be apples and oranges, but they're still fruit. Heck, let's just keep the fruit analogy:
"I can get fruit cheaper from vendor A."
"No, fruit vendor B is cheaper!"
"Dude, vendor A has apples for just $xx"
"Yes, but vendor B doesn't carry apples at all, so they don't count. Vendor B's oranges, however, are cheaper than Vendor A's. So vendor B has the cheapest fruit."

Weird, huh?

As for special characters, they cost GW just as much time and money to produce, but sell less. So it makes perfect sense that they have to be more expensive to make back the investment. I don't know how the other companies deal with this.

Archaon
28-05-2007, 16:25
See, I find this interesting too. Why should I pay more for a figure because it's more useful in the game? Assuming the quality, mass and materials are essentially the same, there's no excuse for Yarrick to cost more than a regular Commissar. Okay, sometimes the scuplting may be superior in the instance of special characters, but I don't think that's a blanket rule that justifies a £2 increase in cost for these guys.

[/I].

That's rather easily explained..

Special character models have smaller runs for roughly equal commitment in production time.

Because their run is smaller the final price is a bit higher because mass production lowers the cost per model.. now i don't know the amount that a SC is more expensive to produce but knowing GW they are more than likely to take advantage of that and price him/her higher than it would be appropriate.

Pokpoko
28-05-2007, 16:42
As for special characters, they cost GW just as much time and money to produce, but sell less. So it makes perfect sense that they have to be more expensive to make back the investment. I don't know how the other companies deal with this.
each and every character for WM?hordes is "special character" by GW nomenclature, as they all are named individuals.
as for cheap apples and ripe oranges, i think we can assume safely that GW has cheaper plastics in general than PP or Rackham, and metals on sort-of even level.
it is cheaper however, to aquire full gaming experience in WM and Confronattion that in WHB/40k in almost all instances.

so there;)

Thommy H
28-05-2007, 17:01
They may be apples and oranges, but they're still fruit. Heck, let's just keep the fruit analogy:
"I can get fruit cheaper from vendor A."
"No, fruit vendor B is cheaper!"
"Dude, vendor A has apples for just $xx"
"Yes, but vendor B doesn't carry apples at all, so they don't count. Vendor B's oranges, however, are cheaper than Vendor A's. So vendor B has the cheapest fruit."


But what if you're not buying apples? You only need apples, after all, to make Vendor A's special recipe for apple pie...

Okay, now I'm just hungry :(

Keravin
28-05-2007, 17:09
That's rather easily explained..

Special character models have smaller runs for roughly equal commitment in production time.

Because their run is smaller the final price is a bit higher because mass production lowers the cost per model.. now i don't know the amount that a SC is more expensive to produce but knowing GW they are more than likely to take advantage of that and price him/her higher than it would be appropriate.

Yes and it's not like Yarrick has not been in production for 10+ years.

lord_blackfang
28-05-2007, 17:22
it is cheaper however, to aquire full gaming experience in WM and Confronattion that in WHB/40k in almost all instances.


Yes. But GW also sells games that are cheaper than WM or Conf.

It'm just saying it's unfair to compare skirmish games to company-level games and claim they're cheaper, while at the same time demanding that only metals count as far as miniatures are concerned.

GW-bashers deliberately base their arguments on standards far more suited to PP/Rackham. No wonder GW always "pulls the short straw" when the deck is stacked against them, so to speak.

Gaebriel
28-05-2007, 17:50
I do not think we should just compare metal models with metal models, just models with models. Plastic is one of GW's main achievements, it's their specialty, and as such taking it out of the discussion is unfair. I'd say comparisson should be between models of comparable scale, and as such, we can just compare any model. I also think, due to the very different nature of the companies' games, a direct model comparisson on a one-to-one basis doesn't make much sense.

Think of purchasing Rakham-models for a standardly sized (2,000 pts) Warhammer army, and vice versa GW-models for a standard game of Confrontation (what ever size that is). To the former add the cost of a Rakham Confrontation Force, and to the latter add the cost of a GW Warhammer force. Then see which bunch is cheaper.

That should be a sensible way of comparing prices - seperating the gamesystem from the manufacturer - and comparing both manufacturers prices on more than a just very subjective model-to-model level, as well as not trying to compare the systems directly.

Company A models suitable for a Company A force + Company A models suitable for a Company B force
compared against
Company B models suitable for a Company B force + Company B models suitable for a Company A force

Take the broad average.

strv
28-05-2007, 19:03
Lets say I get a box of 18£ empire militia, I part the models with my friend (now 9£ for 10 models).
We then download Mordheim rules, and play a game that has costed us 9£ each.
I are teh win.

Keravin
28-05-2007, 19:16
Lets say I get a box of 18£ empire militia, I part the models with my friend (now 9£ for 10 models).
We then download Mordheim rules, and play a game that has costed us 9£ each.
I are teh win.

Missed out on the scenery in those costs. Fundamental to making Mordheim and Necromunda work well.

Pokpoko
28-05-2007, 19:27
Yes. But GW also sells games that are cheaper than WM or Conf
only as mail order. and we all know just exactly how well and constantly are the games in question(Necro and Mordheim i take you meant) supported by GW:angel:

lord_blackfang
28-05-2007, 19:42
only as mail order. and we all know just exactly how well and constantly are the games in question(Necro and Mordheim i take you meant) supported by GW:angel:

And like strv said, a box of ordinary 40k/WHFB troops and the free downloadable rules will do just fine.

strv
28-05-2007, 19:51
Missed out on the scenery in those costs. Fundamental to making Mordheim and Necromunda work well.

That goes for any other miniature game as well ;)

Keravin
28-05-2007, 20:04
Less so for any other miniature game given they can be played with some books operating as hills etc. Buildings are somewhat of a prerequisite for Necro and Mordheim.

lord_blackfang
28-05-2007, 20:15
And incredibly easy to make at home...

Pokpoko
28-05-2007, 21:25
And like strv said, a box of ordinary 40k/WHFB troops and the free downloadable rules will do just fine.as well might play with paper tokens in case of Necro-even the IG models, the most suitable of all the 40k range, would be very out of place in a necro game, not to mention totally not wyswig. Mordheim is a bit better,but ther's only so much you can do with militia box-marienburgers, witch hunters, sisters of sigmar, not to mention more exotic things like amazons or carnival of chaos, are rather distinctive in style.the rest of warbends, yes, could be played with WHB boxes, if one doesn't mind.still, the fact remains-the games have zero support, compared to WM and Confra.

strv
28-05-2007, 21:50
But you can in fact play it(mordheim) for 9£, which is pretty cheap, even if it is unsupported.

Pokpoko
28-05-2007, 22:38
well, yes. probably not the best fun you'd ever had, but you could.
chess still cheaper tho:D

VetSgtNamaan
28-05-2007, 23:38
Or you could take all those reapers one was using for DnD to play in the local mordheim campaign/league. There are many ways to cut costs in regards to playing the skirmish games.

Morris
29-05-2007, 00:14
Warjacks which compare so nicely in size to a dreadnaught that one was used one at a major canadian event as a nurgle dread, are at worst similar in price.



£8 or so on some websites as opposed to £30 ?

Wickerman71
29-05-2007, 03:23
The exchange rate between USD and CAD is currently 1.0825 which means $45 USD should be about 48.71. Let's say the bank takes two percent for good measure. It's still 49.61.

$70!!!? That represents an exchange rate of 1.556. That's a 47% difference! Between two countries with the largest undefended border in human history. Where more trade passes than almost any place on the planet. Where trade agreements and shipping infrastructure make shipping and importing so easy (I work in that field). It's a joke that GW is trying to maintain an exchange rate from years ago.

It's not like it has to cross water or go on a jet. 90% of Canada's population is right near the border.

So know if I want GW's stuff and don't want to get ripped off by false exchange rates, I need to order it in from a US store like thewarstore.net or Battlewagon Bits. Policies like this lie of an exchange rate really make Privateer Press and Rackham products far more attractive.

Yes & this is where Rakham atleast really starts to shine the Rakham store offers free shipping to North America & Europe on all orders above 100eur (145.24 can) & a free mini on orders above 150eur (217.86 can). Now GW's offers up Skull Pass for $75can which is just a tad more expensive than Confrantation Initiation Set. GW offers up over 100 minis (though not there best models) Rakham only 9. So pure startup GW is still a better deal. The problem falls into when you want to do more than start up, character models cost us a small fortune, lets say you wanted to add Gorbad to your Orks & Gobbos it will cost you $50Can where as I can add a comparble model from rakham for around 30eur ($43Can). The same price structure carries over to online resellers.

lord_blackfang
29-05-2007, 07:34
Was at my FLGS yesterday (a rare event since I do all my shoping online)

Couldn't find any WM or Conf. set that wasn't more expensive than a comparable GW set (plastic or metal)

I'm looking at an online store that seems to sell all minis at RRP. Let's see what kind of prices Rackham stuff goes for:

man-sized characters: £6-£8
3 cavalry: £22-£25
3 core infantry: £7-9
4-5 fancy infantry: £20
ogre-sized model: £10-£23
chariot: £35
hero mounted and on foot: £20

Funnily enough character models seem 2-3x more expensive than similar sized rank and file. What was that about GW's weird character pricing? :rolleyes:

Thommy H
29-05-2007, 09:57
Character models are always more expensive than ordinary troopers because they're usually larger, more dynamically posed or just better sculpted. The issue is with a character model costing £2 - £3 extra just because it has a specific name in a Codex or Army Book.

lord_blackfang
29-05-2007, 11:06
But GW special characters usually are larger, more dynamically posed or just better sculpted, especially in WHFB.

clovis
29-05-2007, 13:28
But GW special characters usually are larger, more dynamically posed or just better sculpted, especially in WHFB.

True and well said;)

Wickerman71
30-05-2007, 05:18
Funnily enough character models seem 2-3x more expensive than similar sized rank and file. What was that about GW's weird character pricing? :rolleyes:

If your response was aimed at me, read my post again, it's Canadian pricing, Gorbad would run me about 40 bucks canadian from the US online store & around $43can from the UK store which is far more inline. Hence, when ever I visit Britain I make sure I got room in my case for some GW goodies. Now if I'm looking to stay with a Canadian online supplier because I don't want to deal with extra tax & duty, Rackham looks more appealing for the long haul. The supplier I deal with offers 30% across the board wether it Rackham or GW. This is just plain stupidity on the part of GW Canada to have Canadians pay 20%-25% more for a product where Rakham does nothing of the sort. As a Canadian what am I to take from this other than GW doesn't want my buisness as much as Rackham does.

grickherder
30-05-2007, 19:48
Wickerman71-- that's exactly how I feel as well. I wanted to buy some Ringwraiths after watching FOTR (got a bit inspired) and found that they are 48.33 Canadian if bought in the US (plus nominal state sales tax of say 7% takes it to 51.71-- and 7% is probably a bit high). Here in Canada, I'd pay $70 with an average of a 13% tax which gives us 79.10. That's a 53% premium over the US prices on an after tax basis (and I think I charged the US prices too high of a tax rate on average). Just taking retail price we have a 44.8% premium.

Any way I'm going to pay that? Not a chance. It makes the other makers who don't try to gouge on the exchange rate, far, far more attractive.

Hey Wickerman71-- who's your 30% off suppler for Rackham within Canada?