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Killshot
23-05-2007, 00:25
Has anyone tried an all mounted evil force? I've been considering Easterling Kataphracts and Khandish mounted troops and chariots.

Joewrightgm
23-05-2007, 02:23
I've seen a mounted force of Easterlings simply ride down most of an enemy force through well timed uses of might and striking in force.

Not seen a khandish force try to do it.

Have seen a Warg Rider horde do really well; combination of strong wargs, the fact that you kill the rider, but many times you'll have the wargs still on the table.

Pertinax
23-05-2007, 07:16
I've seen an all mounted nazgul army that did surprisingly well...

ozzfan
23-05-2007, 07:56
I don't see why they couldn't work, it works for good, why not evil?

Osbad
23-05-2007, 13:00
Depends on the scenario. In a pitched battle the extra manoeuverability more than makes up for the shortage in numbers. In Take and Hold, you're toast as a rule.

Mars
23-05-2007, 13:13
I've seen an all mounted nazgul army that did surprisingly well...

how does that work exactly? 7 Nazgūl at 700 points? 7 Black Darts per turn?

Pertinax
23-05-2007, 14:14
Either that or a fair amount of compell/transfix/charge going on.

Gondorian
23-05-2007, 19:04
Plus the way they can get to an objective quickly, blitz away the will of half the wraiths to break the force and then hope for the game to end before the approaching infantry can reach the objective.

stonehorse
23-05-2007, 21:10
I'm currently working at getting this following force;

Khamul the Easterling, Armoured hourse. Total 135pts.

1 Easterling Kataphrakt, Banner. Total 39pts.

23 Easterling Kataphrakts. Total 322pts.

All those Armoured Horses are going to be a pain to deal with, and it's just so fast. Here's hoping GW produce plastic Kataphrakts in the future.

Grand total 496pts.

Killshot
23-05-2007, 22:17
Thanks Stonehorse! I don't have the Shadow in the East book yet, so seeing the amount of models I will probably need is very helpful.

Mars
23-05-2007, 22:24
Plus the way they can get to an objective quickly, blitz away the will of half the wraiths to break the force and then hope for the game to end before the approaching infantry can reach the objective.

hehehe, sneaky :D

in point match it'll be tricky though:

true enough, Heroes will have little chance against them, other than at long range, and being so mobile and scary they'll be hard to engage

yet against a regular infantry army, it seems difficult to take out that many Warriors. if you can throw say 50 black darts (7x8 Will), that's 17 hits, that's 10 dead Warriors, and it'll cost you most of your Will. doable I guess

on Stonehorse's list, how well do Kataphrakts do?

they still only have the hitting power of Rohirrim (and less), and their mounts are vulnerable to Elf/Dwarf shooting. having no shooting, the enemy will have the advantage. in a spear formation, especially with a higher Fight value, they can just target the mounts first, and after that it's pretty much game over

I would suggest throwing in some more diversity, like Wild Wargs, Warg Riders, the new Serpent Riders... or your army will be too specialised. heavy Good heroes for example will be unbeatable (Boromir with spear support will kill at least 2 per turn). I'd also suggest a Captain, for the extra might (cavalry armies need that) and punch (S4 is handy against all those D6 Good armies)

on a last note, it can't be too difficult to create plastic Kataphrakts: Rohan/the new MT mounts, plastic Easterlings, and green stuff to make barding

Pertinax
23-05-2007, 23:03
I'm currently working at getting this following force;

Khamul the Easterling, Armoured hourse. Total 135pts.

1 Easterling Kataphrakt, Banner. Total 39pts.

23 Easterling Kataphrakts. Total 322pts.

All those Armoured Horses are going to be a pain to deal with, and it's just so fast. Here's hoping GW produce plastic Kataphrakts in the future.

Grand total 496pts.
Proabably after you buy and paint up the last one's you need. ;)

the director
28-05-2007, 20:15
don't use kaumul the easterling. combine easterling with harad. use the harad poison arrows and there mounted hench hero suladan mtd with 4 attacks when charging and 3 might to play with. in a 500 point army just go for the power hero like suladan. there's no point in having a hero to support your troops with spells if they are getting owned CQB by captins

Pertinax
28-05-2007, 22:59
Not sure I understood much of that. Sorry.

I'de vouch any day for Khamul. He's the toughest Nazgul out there. Granted, on a horse, he isn't so bad, but on the fell beast, he's great. I'd fall for him any day. Then, take a E. captain, and kit him out to go with the cav. Fill out with common cav.

Director: Now, if you want to include foot troopers, I'd probably either go wholey Harad, or wholey Easterling. My reasoning as follows:

My argument for easterlings with bows is that they are armoured. It's as easy as that. Making them pretty much as good in combat as any other trooper in your army. (same principle as Uruks with crossbows).

My argument for Harad is that you can get loads of figures there in that army.
It is truly a horde army. You can get MANY bows there.

My argument for not combining them both is that you will be getting the best of the points out of your troops (not that it is a bad thing), BUT by taking both parties, you have to A: have a hero from both parts, and B: you will get less bows, because each part has to adhere to the 33% limit. Ergo: not an option in my books.

And I would always try to include a hero with the troops. When you break, you want to stay on the battle field. Or 40% of your troops will run away in the first broken turn. And so on.

the director
28-05-2007, 23:39
arm the middle rank with spear and bow (they can't use both in the same phase but neither can you fight and shoot) have an easterling front rank and rear rank giving you 3 attacks. This would work a lot better if easterlings with spear and shields weren't so hard to get hold of (but the conversion is easy enough). Take suladan and harad raiders on the left with Easterling Kat's and a captin down the right. so infantry and archers= 20 easterlings and 10 harad say thats only 240 points. 4 easterling kat's and a cap is only 126 and 4 raiders and your serpant lord makes up 144 then have 15 harad spears make up the rest of your infantry for 90 points. 600 points and the army i will use to win the tournerment at ali paly this week end

Mars
29-05-2007, 09:09
Pertinax makes some interesting points.

- Khamul does sound great on a Fellbeast, I'm going to advise that to people with a model.

As for the Easterling/Haradrim combination:

- True enough Easterling bowmen are armoured, however this matters for nothing when facing Elf/Dwarf bows or when in combat. Haradrim Defence is just as good in those situation, but they cost 25% less and have poisoned shots. Plus they can still volley together, as they all have the same bow type.

I'm a bit confused why you say armoured bowmen are as good in combat as other troops: this will only make a difference against Good Heroes, Khazad Guard and Iron Guard.

Combining both forces matters little for the bow count, but you'll get a mixed force that offers the best of both worlds.
For example 21 Haradrim will give you 7 bows for 126 points. 15 Easterlings will give you 5 bows and 3 pikes for 126 points. That's 2 bows less than if you'd take a full Haradrim force, but you have the advantage of a D6 shield wall, as well as access to regular spears.

Having to take a Hero from both parties is not necesarily a bad thing, if you play with enough points. Extra heroes are never a bad thing, especially when you play with a larger number of models, which is the case for a swarm army of Harad, or if you have cavalry elements like both forces do.

On top of that, the Haradrim give you a Suladan, which is a pretty good hero (and who's a getting a new model soon).

Although it is true Haradrim heroes are rather fragile compared to Easterling Captains, as they lack the armour.

- Combining forces also works well when combining cavalry: the Easterlings give you a shield wall, while the Haradrim give you lances and bows. It'll get even worse when the Serpent Riders arrive, those guys will have great hitting power, but will be prime and easy targets for bow fire.

the director
29-05-2007, 09:48
serpant riders will draw fire in the same way as trolls. the opponent shoots at them for 6 turns kills it an dthen has to face combat having only killed one model.

Another reason for haradrim is the mumak, which provides fun gaming if nothing else

Mars
29-05-2007, 12:09
which is nice, except that a Troll costs 80 points and dies in a single turn if the enemy has enough bows

while 3 Goblins take as a much punishment, and only cost 15 points

same thing for the Serpent Riders, who'll take as much punishment as your Haradrim, but cost twice as much. plus they are way better in combat, especially against heavy armour they have a much greater tactical value than your average F3 S3 Warrior

Chainaxe07
29-05-2007, 12:55
I've seen a kataphract army with wolf rider support, and it did quite good in most engagements. Even the humble easterling king (a king of men), when mounted, is quite a force on his own. Just be warned many specific tasks and objectives can be unsuited to mounted models.

the director
29-05-2007, 13:09
yes for take and hold pikes are better. What does everyone think of the khandish chariots? Coz bad news evil guys elvish cariots come out near december

Gondorian
29-05-2007, 15:46
- Combining forces also works well when combining cavalry: the Easterlings give you a shield wall, while the Haradrim give you lances and bows. It'll get even worse when the Serpent Riders arrive, those guys will have great hitting power, but will be prime and easy targets for bow fire.

How do you know what the serpant riders will be like? I thought their stats hadn't come out yet or are you making educated guesses as to how they'll perform?

Killshot,
An all cavalry army can work for both good and evil. You will find certain games will be very difficult though. Cavalry have great manouverability meaning you can redeploy, escape from board edges and reach objectives quickly. However, when you're not charging, you're at a disadvantage same when fighting in difficult terrain. Thus, you have to be careful and use every might point to its best effect (this will usually be through heroic movement).

A mixture of easterling cataphracts and khandish riders and chariots can work. You need to decide on just how many points you want in each side of the force, how they will support one another (for example, putting the easterlings in front when fighting certain enemies will help protect your lighter khandish riders, inversly, khandish riders are cheaper so you could perhaps use them as arrow shields for the kataphracts in other situations.), what each group of warriors is suited to doing and which heroes to take and how they will control/direct/aid your force.

Personally, I find khand troops to be a tad bland when compared to haradrim but if you definately want khand then take em cause they do have uses on the field. Easterling Kataphracts are pretty self explanetory, they have no projectiles and are not much worse than recieving a charge of rohirrem, however, they have a higher defence so have more staying power. These lads will stick around longer on objectives and such but will still die to sustained attack.

Hope this was useful

Mars
29-05-2007, 17:54
...or are you making educated guesses as to how they'll perform?

seems rather logical, they'll just be like any other human honour guard (Rohan Royal Guard, Citadel Guard, Fountain Guard...)

so they'll be cavalry with lances, F4 and C3/4/never break as long as your hero is alive. D4, Haradrim having little armour

with a banner they'll be quite painful against regular human troops, because they're likely to win and kill their target. even against D7 Dwarves, they're a serious threat (F4 means they can beat them even on a tie, and if they win that's 4 dice, wounding on 5's)

I love the chariot models, although I don't really know the rules

Gondorian
29-05-2007, 18:58
Cool, I hadn't given them much thought. Another trick for predicting stats for warriors is that every point of increase means one stat is improved by one (except shoot value, this doesn't tend to fit the pattern), special rules sometimes add cost, sometimes they don't.

Joewrightgm
29-05-2007, 22:25
Chariots are sick. Stable platform for shooting, you can use a two handed weapon from one. They crush people (and cavalry) good.

Chainaxe07
30-05-2007, 14:03
A bit OT, i know, but since we are guessing at stats, what do you think the Royalblood Dunland Chieftain will be like?
I suppose he is along the lines of a king of men, but then, even if you give him 10 points of heavy armour, he still is just 65 points. He costs 70...any guess?

the director
30-05-2007, 16:19
shield or bow?

Joewrightgm
30-05-2007, 16:52
probably with a 12'' stand fast range.

Chainaxe07
01-06-2007, 06:55
probably with a 12'' stand fast range.

That would make him a decent leader at least. We'll see.

Mars
01-06-2007, 09:43
actually, Legions suggested that the Dunlandings would be like Minas Tirith Warriors, but in the end (Two Towers) they turned out like Rohan Warriors. so I wouldn't give Legions to much credit on this one (they changed the cost for the Isengard Troll too)

however, the Dunland Chieftain in Two Towers does have 3 Will. this could be a misprint, but personally I'm guessing it isn't, which would make the Royal version even a greater leader

Pertinax
01-06-2007, 19:42
I have played against Chariots in many tournaments. And I've never once seen them work well.

Sure, they look scary, and so get to a lot of shots put into them. And this they usually survive.

But when they go into combat, they are very simple to swamp. The chariot might be hard, but the rider isn't. Once he's dead, it's game over for the chariot.

It's quite simple to play against them. A tighter than usual formation usually reduces a chariot to a one shot a round, not terribly effective expensive figure.

Shadowphrakt
03-06-2007, 09:54
ive tried an all mounted evil army, with kataphrakts, mercenary and chariots.

Shadowphrakt
03-06-2007, 09:55
ive tried an all mounted evil army, with kataphrakts, mercenary and chariots. tworked really well. and against gondor to

CasperTheGhost
12-06-2007, 21:43
My GT evil army is all mounted ill give you the out line of the list.

Khamul
10 kataphats
King on Chariot
24 Candy Horsemen
2 Candy Chariots

I've tried it out and Pertinax your right chariots don't work unsupported. But when surronded by horsemen and a good use of might they are really effective.

Cavarly are good if you kill enemy archers then run round and round picking on separate groups. In certain games like sieze the prize, dismount, then mount another horse and run off with it.

Hope that helps

stonehorse
12-06-2007, 22:41
Well I've now got 11 kataphrakts, and with my Birthday coming up soon, I'm going to be asking for the £50 Easterling Box Set, so that'll be 17 kataphrakts and a mounted Khamul.

Soon I'll have my 20+ kataphrakts army... and it shall look glorious on the feild of battle, that is until I start rolling dice :rolleyes:

Pertinax
12-06-2007, 23:50
I've always been impressed by "sniper" cav. Mounted archers that can move around moderately quickly, and provide fire to where it is needed.

I've used Wargs that way, and they have been a constant pain the side of the enemy. Because he can't ignore them. Thus, the rest of the army benefits.