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Elcampbello
23-05-2007, 15:47
Can anyone give me the pro's and cons of Black Templars? Fancied something a bit diffrent from Tau and Imperial Guard, and the Templars background is awesome.

superknijn
23-05-2007, 15:50
Well, they are not overpowered, and most advantages can be turned into disadvantages, or the other way around. Actually, most BT advantages are also disadvantages (and vice versa). As such, they require someone who actually thinks.

Also, their models are cool. (you kniow, the upgrade pack)

Captain Micha
23-05-2007, 16:57
Bts are a tricky bunch.. they really do not do the shooty shooty bit very well. *gee thanks righteous zeal* but really do the stabby stabby sort of well... *gee thank you howling banshees... stupid power weapons across the board*

they get nasty however when you start planning around their weak points and focus on what makes them, them instead of using them like smurfs. They are actually abit better in my opinion with assault termies.. (not ac termies.. yes... there is a difference)

I gear mine up with as many power weapons as I can myself.

I picked em up initially so I would not have a 2nd vehicle based army.. *crons and tau.... need I say more.. even though I only have one mono.. the cries of cheese are so bad that I might as well have 4.. yes.. 4 as in 1 too many*

I like the emps champion model. really nice....

silence
23-05-2007, 19:39
The figures are nice, the background is nice, and in the hands of a skilled marine player the BT are a great army. However, you have to be prepared to have a massive lack in firepower when compared to more conventional marine armies.

In assault they are very impressive and can cover the board very quickly with the righteous zeal rules, especially with chaplains and some wargear items, infact an effective army can be made from a mere two squads of 20 BT warriors (half marines half scouts) led by chaplains and maybe some termies.

Master Jeridian
23-05-2007, 19:56
Never understood the idea that BT can't do shooting as good as SM's.

BT Tornados are just as cheap and as shooty as SM ones.
BT Predators are just as shooty as SM ones.

BT Crusader squads are still BS 4 with bolters, and their plasmaguns are cheaper.

A Mechanised BT force with a few Tornados, a few Predators and Rhino-mounted Crusader squads is pretty shooty- with the added bonus of cheaper Plasma, cheaper Power Fists, RZ and Fearless in combat.

Captain Micha
23-05-2007, 20:15
they just don't.

due to two words

Righteous Zeal.

yes they can do the shooty shooty vehicles, but as far as infantry goes.. that can be a sketchy affair....

*remembers tau using a rail gun str 10 just to inflict a casualty* nuff said eh?

Master Jeridian
23-05-2007, 21:01
Not sure I follow.

Do you mean 6xman las/plas. Any tourney player worth playing has counter's to that boring and predictable 'tactic'.

Eldar and Tau for example will just stay out of LOS of such units, only coming out if and when they are prepared to obliterate the squad.

Having say a Crusader squad of 8 with a fist and plasma in a Rhino, to advance- worst thing Righteous Zeal can do to them is give you additional movement towards the enemy.

Even with the 6xman las/plas, forcing a RZ will make them move forwards- but they will still count as stationary for firing weapons.

I'm inclined to agree with you on the pure experience that I've rarely seen BT's in tournaments and in regular play- so there must be something bad, but I just don't see it.

Captain Micha
24-05-2007, 13:19
does it say that they count as stationary? I don't think they did... hmm anyway, moving towards the enemy with a shooty list is not good because you are moving away from objectives, (or cover for that matter...)

that's one of the main things about rz.. I love the rule... don't get me wrong... one of the best rules in the game in my opinion

Master Jeridian
24-05-2007, 13:39
It's a consolidate move in your opponent's turn, it has no effect on counting as movement in your next turn.

So in that respect it has no effect on 6xman las/plas.

The only other downside as you've mentioned is moving towards an enemy when you don't want to (say Nids or Orks for example).

But as I've said before 6xman las/plas is overrated, overdone and compensated for by opponents.

Taking Crusader Squads that are meant to advance to put pressure on the enemy means RZ is a bonus not a downside.
In a mechanised list it is doubly so, since if you don't want the enemy to RZ a unit, make sure they can't see it due to Rhino's in the way.

Basic tactic- turn 1 rush forward and pop smoke. Turn 2 rush forward, disembark in the opponent's face and rapid fire plasma and bolters.
In their turn, any shooting they do against you just brings you closer, or even in assault on their turn.

Captain Micha
24-05-2007, 14:05
I don't use 6 man las plas anyway.. no fun.

and suck vs geqs.

I run through most of the weapons offered rather than sticking with just one.

Democratus
24-05-2007, 14:26
It's a consolidate move in your opponent's turn, it has no effect on counting as movement in your next turn.

Absolutely correct. You can RZ toward an enemy and then unload with a Lascannon without worry. Since there are no Devastator squads in the BT Codex, then you will be sticking the heavy weapons in your tactical squads. So the RZ will bring you closer and you will then be excellent at close combat as well.

Predators, Speeders and Dreadnoughts can round out your anti-vehicle firepower quite nicely, freeing up your tactical squads from this responsibility.

Master Jeridian
24-05-2007, 14:51
Absolutely correct. You can RZ toward an enemy and then unload with a Lascannon without worry. Since there are no Devastator squads in the BT Codex, then you will be sticking the heavy weapons in your tactical squads. So the RZ will bring you closer and you will then be excellent at close combat as well.

Predators, Speeders and Dreadnoughts can round out your anti-vehicle firepower quite nicely, freeing up your tactical squads from this responsibility.

Exactly, a decent SM army in 4th Ed relies more on Predators and Tornados than static 6xman las/plas- because 4th Ed is based around mobility and terrain. If you can't move and shoot, don't bother.

So a BT army can do this- and have the added benefits of RZ, cheaper plasma, etc.

So why are BT armies rare? Why are they considered more difficult/less competitive than SM armies?

tuebor
24-05-2007, 14:52
So in that respect it has no effect on 6xman las/plas.

The only other downside as you've mentioned is moving towards an enemy when you don't want to (say Nids or Orks for example).

Actually, I'd say the bigger disadvantage is that it pulls you out of cover. Any firebase units should be in 4+ cover (where possible), especially a unit that light on numbers.

I play Templars, and have had some nasty tricks pulled on me with RZ. I've had friends deep strike units in for me to RZ towards either drawing me away from the enemy or out of LOS of whatever I was shooting at.

TEMPLARDAWG
24-05-2007, 17:21
Get as many PW as possible. Bike squad with meltas for tank hunting LST for the asscans. One thing I did in my last tourney that worked real well was using a techmarine with full servo harness and put him with a chap. coming out of a LRC. The TM will get (I think this is right I don't have my codex with me) 2 base attacks 1 for two weapons 1 for charging, and then 2 power fist attacks when int. 1 rolls come around. Pluse you get rerolls thanks to the chappy. My squad like that rolled through everything. The TM killed 2 Choas dreads. by himself.

Black Templars fan
26-05-2007, 00:57
there shooting is average but up close they are deadly get helbrecht he is amazing

ImperialFist18
26-05-2007, 01:27
Although I dont do tempies myself, they are an excellent chapter iw ill say that. they would be my second chapter choice. they have a lot of good hq choices that are insane.

Sons of Russ
26-05-2007, 04:12
you could easily do them.

Keep your Imperial Fists, convert some with older armour, and use Black Templar rules to reflect the zealous portion of the Imperial Fist Legion that was split off after Dorn reluctantly complied with the edicts of the codex astartes.....

eg 17th Company Captain Helbrecht leading his handpicked force..... (must get C:BT to check the fluffiness of that...)


One of the overlooked things about Imperial Fists are that they produced two out of the three noted successor chapters featured in the Index Astartes Books.


hmmm... .this give me an idea.....

ReveredChaplainDrake
26-05-2007, 04:43
With the apparently disappointing advent of the DA codex, I for one expect a lot of Templar players to come about in sheer defiance.

Dark Angels have super-expensive upgrades. A powerfist sergeant is effectively 55 pts (assuming he could be bought on his own anyway). A Powerfist Initiate, while having 1 less attack, is 31 pts. Templars also get cheaper Plasma and Lascannons, which is kinda' sad for the DAs.

Templars get better asscannon deals than DA's by far. Templars take 2x per Terminator Squad, and they can take as many asscannons as there are LSTs in a squadron. DA's get one Asscannon per Tornado Squadron, and one per Deathwing Terminator Squad. Of course, there are the more creative players who will mix and match Multi-Meltas and Assault Cannons, but those who wish to spam would do better in Templars.

Templars get much better heroes. All DA heroes get 2 wounds max, no upgrading to large heroes or anything except for Azrael and (I think) Belly & Sammy. Templars admittedly have more expensive heroes, but even our Emp's Champ could kick the crap out of a DA character out of sheer virtue of being way better armed and armoured.

Templars are, supposedly, sadly, the last Space Marine chapter to be made with Armoury access. Not like we have any Vet Sarges to take much advantage of an armoury anyway... but at least our characters get mighty studly.

Templars have much more squad variety. DA's buy their guys in increments of 5 Marines / 5 Terminators / 3 bikes / 1 Land Speeder. And even then, there are pretty much 2 squad sizes: 5 or 10 Marines. Black Templars can have as few as 5 Initiates, or up to 10 Inits and 10 Neos, which makes even Orks jealous considering how Marines outclass Orks at pretty much everything in a 1-to-1 fight. Dark Angels work more like IG.