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Gustav Kohn
24-05-2007, 21:20
Question 1-Can a warrior priest use his prayer that works as a remains in play spell and then cast another the next turn without canceling the first?

Question 2-If the answer is no, then can he use a bound item to cast a spell without canceling the prayer?

Crube
24-05-2007, 21:26
As far as I know

1 - no - they are used as normal spells

2 - yes - it is the item casting the spell, the priest is not praying...

Gustav Kohn
24-05-2007, 21:31
Why are they normal spells and so what good is a power level 4 prayer? I know it is useful, but honestly deflates the use of a warrior priest. They would force immediate dispels if I could cast one the next turn.

Crube
24-05-2007, 21:36
I think (rulebooks elsewhere - sorry) that they are cast as if they are normal spells, for rules purposes.

I find the challenge is to say your prayers in the right way so that things like that are kept to a minimum... although it can be tricky admittedly...

mikec_81
25-05-2007, 04:33
check your BRB's section on bound spells.

It clearly states that it follows all the restrictions of normal magic. The only thing that is different is that they have a power level instead of rolling power dice.

Since all prayers are cast exactly like bound spells (as per the Empire book), they too must use the same restrictions of normal magic.

I see no reason why bound spells can somehow ignore the effect of cancelling out an RiP that the user currently has on.

Atrahasis
25-05-2007, 12:41
There have been multiple 100+ post threads on the subject of RiP and bound spells.

The conclusion generally is that while it is not explicitly stated, the item is casting the spell, the "wizard" is not, and so bound items do not cancel RiP spells already in play.

Gustav Kohn
25-05-2007, 15:31
Yeah, I have read through the rulebook and Empire book multiple times on this and it is a bit ambiguous IMO.

I understand making them remains in play so that it lasts to the other players turn and such. I understand why remains in play spells are cancelled when you cast another spell. It is because the power used to keep it going can't be taken away in subsequent turns.

I also see that prayers are bound spells. Why would they write that into the book. I see two possible reasons.
1. It has a power level and it always casts, unlike spells
2. Possibly multiple bound RIP spells can be played. Possibly not.

Anyway, I play that I can have only the RIP spell going, but I just don't see as much use for a warrior priest that way...but I love em so much.

Yellow Commissar
26-05-2007, 04:35
:confused:
There have been multiple 100+ post threads on the subject of RiP and bound spells.

The conclusion generally is that while it is not explicitly stated, the item is casting the spell, the "wizard" is not, and so bound items do not cancel RiP spells already in play.

That wasn't the conclusion I read on the two 100+ post threads I read on the topic. One of which was on Warhammer-Empire.com.

Perhaps I missed the majority of threads, but many Empire players are awaiting a FAQ before playing this way.

Did anyone notice how the text for bound spells changed from 6th to 7th? :confused:

Gustav Kohn
28-05-2007, 09:15
I was definitely planning on waiting for more information before trying to use two RIP prayers in a row.

As far as bound items canceling RIP spells, you wouldn't have to wait for the empire FAQ because it affects all army books that have bound items.

Odieman
21-10-2007, 13:41
Hi has there been released an official "faQ" about this issue of two remains in play prayers yet?

If not I have an argument which I didnt see in the other 4 threads I read about this.

I for one agree with the argument that a bound spell (from an item), cancels rip spells from wizards and vice versa. This because the wizard needs to activate the item and therefore cast the bound item. But that scenario is not my topic of dicussion.

It is whether a prayer prayed by an arch lector or a priest cancels a prayer already in play or not. Now there has been raised arguments for both possibilities. But I think most people have ignored the fact that it is not the priest that is the source of the magic. He is not the one actually casting a prayer, his prayers is simply answered by sigmar, and sigmar blesses the individual or grants the priest powers to smite the enemy.

So basically what I am saying is that if a priest or an arch lector have a remains in play prayer active, that shouldnt be cancelled if he prayes again, except if its the same prayer as the one who rip. So with this I mean to say that a priest can have as many as 3 remains in play prayers active at the same time.

However its just a thought, and it doesnt say anything about this in the rules, personally I havent played with this though. It would be very nice if the developers could elaborate on this subject.

DeathlessDraich
21-10-2007, 15:57
I'm afreaid I have to stick my neck out on this question and be subjected to probable disagreement.

1) Warrior Priests and Arch Lectors are not wizards and therefore *do not cast* spells.
2)Their prayers work like bound spells.
3) Remains in Play is negated when a wizard “attempts to cast” (pg 110) another spell. Not *cast* but *attempt to cast*.
If you feel this differentiation is trivial than please refer to the bold text on pg 108.
The rule book *stresses* the important difference of an attempt to cast and a successful cast.

4) Bound spells are “cast automatically” (pg 121) and therefore *no attempt to cast* has been made.

5) Therefore Warrior Priest Prayers which Remain in Play are not negated when another Prayer is made in the same or subsequent rounds or if a bound spell is used.

Spoonie
31-10-2007, 08:19
I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the last couple posts.

First, Odieman. While I could just throw out a canned response about how fluff arguments hold no merit in the rules forum, let's try this instead. Go watch the Mark of Chaos trailer. Looks pretty much like casting a spell, and that's kind of how I always envisioned it.

And on to Double-D. I remember there being a conversation about whether or not WPs were classified as "wizards", and while I'm not positive on the results of that one, I seem to remember something like "unlike other wizards" in their description labelling them guilty. Regardless, onto the casting issue. Just because something that is "cast automatically" is "cast successfully", doesn't mean there wasn't an "attempt to cast". It just means the attempt can't fail. By the same logic I could argue that since there isn't a chance that Lich Priests can fail a spell roll, there is no attempt either. Therefore any item or ability that says "When your opponent attempts to cast a spell" won't work. Come to think of it, the fact that items like that work against bound spells is something else I'd like to bring up :)

loveless
31-10-2007, 13:19
Prayers are done in the magic phase, but Warrior Priests are NOT Wizards.

Check their description and army list entry in Warhammer Armies: The Empire

Also, note how they are not given the "MAGIC" entry in their army list entry, as other Wizards are (Battle Wizards, for instance).

Warrior Priests are more akin to a "normal" character with a bound-spell item than wizards, and their description makes no reference to being a wizard.

Artemis
31-10-2007, 13:55
The prayers in question are marked as "remains in play". Sureley, this has to be a reference to the paragraph on that subject on p. 110 of the BRB. It feels very strange indeed to only apply some of those restrictions, and not the entire set of rules governing remain in play spells. As to the Bound spell thing, it only says that the prayers are cast like bound spells, not that they are to be treated as such in every respect. The entry on bound spells (p. 121 BRB) clearly shows that the rules for bound spells cannot be applied in full, hence the wording in the Warrior Priest rules.

Spoonie
01-11-2007, 20:41
Like to expand on Artemis real quick. Because of the way GW writes their rules, we're forced to apply every rule possible in the appropriate section. Now if GW would refine their rules writing and have a seperate section for casting spells, bound items, and remains in play, we could apply the rules for bound items and remains in play spells and be done with it. But since the rules are all lumped into a hideous mass, we have to take the section that explains remains in play spells, and assume it applies to anything that remains in play.