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Red_Lep
25-05-2007, 04:51
I'm not sure if I'm reading this right:

If your in a challenge, nobody can attack you or your mount other than the other person in the challenge.

If you cause more wounds than your opponent has they are lost but they still count towards combat res.

Am I correct about these?

Ganymede
25-05-2007, 05:03
correct!!!

Red_Lep
25-05-2007, 05:10
:evilgrin:
correct!!!

Thanks man, that really makes me want to do the "Cheesy Slaanesh Lord of DOOM!!!!" my friend told me about.

Lord
Mark of Slaanesh
Bindings of Slaanesh
Rending Sword
Dragon

Charge, challenge an unfortunate unit champ, over-run the unit, repeat :evilgrin:

WLBjork
25-05-2007, 07:35
Don't rely on that on it's own.

The Lord is unlikely to get more than +6 CR (1 Wound + 5 Overkill), whereas a fully ranked unit with banner starts at +5CR (1 Banner + 3 Ranks + 1 Outnumber).

Holy Crap! Manticores!
25-05-2007, 07:58
:evilgrin:

Thanks man, that really makes me want to do the "Cheesy Slaanesh Lord of DOOM!!!!" my friend told me about.

Lord
Mark of Slaanesh
Bindings of Slaanesh
Rending Sword
Dragon

Charge, challenge an unfortunate unit champ, over-run the unit, repeat :evilgrin:
Looks like a lot of +5 OK situations for you.

/snipped for redundancy (thanks to WLBjork for pointing out everything)

A better setup might be to use your Lord on a Chaos Steed and place him in a unit of Slaanesh Knights (chosen if you want them extra-brutal.) You'll get the same qualities you were looking for, plus the Knights can typically swing the balance of CR to your favor.

Red_Lep
25-05-2007, 14:48
I was doing that cause my friend Ian said they're fun. Other than him I've got 2 units of warriors with full command and a Sorceror(6x3), four units of warhounds, and a big killy unit of Knights to do the more killing stuff while the opponent is distracted with the Lord.

Griefbringer
25-05-2007, 15:53
:evilgrin:
Charge, challenge an unfortunate unit champ, over-run the unit, repeat :evilgrin:

Don't forget that the challenged side can always opt to refuse the challenge.

Red_Lep
25-05-2007, 15:59
Don't forget that the challenged side can always opt to refuse the challenge.

With the bindings(magic item) they can't refuse and I get to choose who accepts the challenge.

Ganymede
25-05-2007, 16:00
I believe the bindings force the challenged character to accept... at least he gets to strike first.

theunwantedbeing
25-05-2007, 16:03
Well...not quite the enemy striking first....if he's on a dragon the dragon gets to fight before the challenged character(assuming it charged) which will almost always result in the enemy character not getting to fight at all.

Griefbringer
25-05-2007, 16:17
Oops, my bad for not noticing the bindings of Slaanesh!

However, as pointed out by WLBjork, the best CR you can get when going against champion would be +6, which might be enough to beat the enemy unit by 1 - which is not enough to guarantee that they will fail their break test. After which your lord will be locked up fighting against a unit that no longer has a champion to be challenged.

Atrahasis
25-05-2007, 16:41
That's only true if you're stupid and throw the dragon into the front of a unit. In the flank the enemy starts ahead by only 1 point (standard + outnumber vs flank) and so will lose by 5 if all goes to plan.

Ganymede
25-05-2007, 18:29
Yeah, but then there will often be no one to challenge, meaning there is little reason to take the challenge kit.

Personally, I'd put him on a steed of slannesh with the challenge kit and use him to kill lord level wizards and such. A much cheaper investment then.

Atrahasis
25-05-2007, 18:47
Yeah, but then there will often be no one to challenge, meaning there is little reason to take the challenge kit.

Why? Do units where you play not have champions?

Red_Lep
25-05-2007, 18:49
Yeah, but then there will often be no one to challenge, meaning there is little reason to take the challenge kit.

Personally, I'd put him on a steed of slannesh with the challenge kit and use him to kill lord level wizards and such. A much cheaper investment then.

Thats probably a better choice but I just like the thought of the Dragon Lord :p

Ganymede
25-05-2007, 19:12
Why? Do units where you play not have champions?

Most of the time, said champions aren't on the corner of a unit. Even if said champion was on the corner, a dragon mounted character could avoid being in contact with a champion if the unit was composed of five ranks.

Of course, if the bindings of slannesh allow you to initiate a challenge with someone not in a fighting rank, then my point is moot.

Atrahasis
25-05-2007, 19:15
Of course, if the bindings of slannesh allow you to initiate a challenge with someone not in a fighting rank, then my point is moot.Bingo .

Ganymede
25-05-2007, 20:26
That's an awesome item!

Brother Siccarius
25-05-2007, 22:28
After you've killed the unfortunate unit champ, assuming there's no other heroes in the unit, all you have left is a unit that wont be able to attack back against you in any other round of combat and will likely lose one rank a turn.

As the models cannot attack back, and a chaos dragon and lord generally have higher initiative than other models, it's easy for them to remove 6 models on their own, ensuring that there's no attacks back from the unit.

I also believe he had a rending sword in the combination which means that each of the Lord's wounds multiply into d3 wounds making it quite easy for both him and his chaos dragon to do well over the 6 wounds previously mentioned.

Lets say the dragon wounds with three of his attacks, and the chaos lord only wounds with three of his own. That's an average of 6 wounds from the lord and three from the dragon, giving them eight wounds of overkill. The basic amount of CR from a unit is 5, so that's -3 to the unit's leadership on the break if they attacked from the front and -4 if they attacked from the side. At this point, most units will break or be dead in another round of combat.

Atrahasis
25-05-2007, 22:49
That's an average of 6 wounds from the lord and three from the dragon, giving them eight wounds of overkill.Overkill is capped at 5.


The basic amount of CR from a unit is 5, so that's -3 to the unit's leadership on the break if they attacked from the front and -4 if they attacked from the side. If they attack from the side, ranks will be negated.

Masque
25-05-2007, 23:25
With that combination the Dragon will go first during the challenge, then the unfortunate unit champion, then the Slannesh Lord. The Dragon will most likely do 3-4 wounds to an average Champion, killing him. Then the Champion won't get to fight because he's dead and the Lord won't get to fight because his opponent is dead. Thus you'll only get 3-4 combat resolution. If you charge the flank you only win by 1 or 2 and if you charge the front of a ranked up unit you'll lose by 1 or 2. This doesn't seem good.

Makaber
26-05-2007, 00:01
It would probably work very well against cavalry units, though. Hell, it doesn't even matter if you're charged or not, since you strike last anyway. Ride up infront of a cavalry unit, let it charge you, challenge the champion, survive, overkill a lot, and win by about 4.

Oh, and since you'll probably get quite a lot of CR anyway, the dragon is a bit redundant. Look into a steed of Slaanesh instead. Writing this, I get a nagging feeling somebody might have mentioned it allready.

theunwantedbeing
26-05-2007, 00:12
Er masque no.....if your mount slays the thing your challenging before the rider gets to attack,the rider DOES attack.

When you flank charge with a lord on dragon,the challenge idea doesnt seem worth it.You have 11 attacks at least....you can really cripple your opponents unit without bothering to limit yourself to 6 wounds.

Much better with something like a chaos steed,or some sort of daemonic steed.

Masque
26-05-2007, 00:18
Er masque no.....if your mount slays the thing your challenging before the rider gets to attack,the rider DOES attack.

Why? You don't normally get to make attacks against corpses (not counting the undead).

Atrahasis
26-05-2007, 01:18
That doesn't say what you think it says.

theunwantedbeing
26-05-2007, 02:21
Okay....seems I may have made up the rule that riders/mounts get to attack the thing they are facing in a challenge if it is slain before they get a chance to attack.
I cant find anything that says you stop attacking once the thing your challenging is dead though.

Seems a stupid rule as if your mount attacks first and causes a single wound you've just ruined any chance of winning that combat because your lord has nobody to attack,it doesnt make sense that the lord would not attack the champion as he is slain.
It does say excess wounds count.

Meh its late....

Masque
26-05-2007, 11:33
Am I crazy or is a post made by theunwantedbeing missing now? Between what I and Atrahasis said last?

Festus
26-05-2007, 11:46
Well, one may delete one's own posts... maybe theunwantedbeing has done so?

Festus

Krankenstein
27-05-2007, 13:29
Seems a stupid rule as if your mount attacks first and causes a single wound you've just ruined any chance of winning that combat because your lord has nobody to attack,it doesnt make sense that the lord would not attack the champion as he is slain.
It does say excess wounds count.


It is a weird situation no matter how you play it:

“No, Silver! Bad Silver! Must not kill champion! Only maim…”

Versus

“Take that you corpse you! And that! And that. And that.”

Red_Lep
27-05-2007, 14:42
“Take that you corpse you! And that! And that. And that.”

Well he is Chaos :p

Arbiter7
29-05-2007, 09:12
lol this is a disgusting tactic!!

Disgusting as in un-sportsmaship.


The only counter I can see is to compute where the Lord will strike, then position another unit so that after the pursiuit move will be able to charge the ******* moster in the flank.

That has to be very difficult.

OR you can always hope that the lord will roll very poorly and give you an extra round to attack him with something else.


In any case, I would be sick of the player fielding it.

ehlijen
29-05-2007, 10:45
What is a chaos lord with dragon and all that stuff worth? Will that be worth an average of three or four enemy units? (You'll be unlikely to reliably kill more than that, a lord on a dragon is usually scary enough to make the oppenent not put his units in lines for you)
And where is his ward save vs shooting? Or at all? Ditch the rending sword and take some protection items instead.

It also only works if you are the one challenging. If the opponent challenges first (as he would in his turn) he gets to pick who you fight, doesn't he?

Festus
29-05-2007, 12:17
Hi

It also only works if you are the one challenging. If the opponent challenges first (as he would in his turn) he gets to pick who you fight, doesn't he?
With Bindings of Slaanesh, it is always the Chaos Player who choses the participants in the Challenge.

Festus

Rabban
29-05-2007, 12:53
Hi

With Bindings of Slaanesh, it is always the Chaos Player who choses the participants in the Challenge.

Festus

The rules say "Whenever the bearer issues a challenge, the enemy may not refuse it and the Chaos player may choose who will accept the challenge...", so if the non-chaos player issues a challenge first on their turn, the bindings have no effect.

Festus
29-05-2007, 13:06
Oh, good to know! I have been cheated! :(