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steeler556
27-05-2007, 13:59
Ok, had this come up yesterday, Empire Wizard with Orb of Thunder attempts to use it. Chaos Khorne Blood Thirster has magical resistance. Can the Chaos player use the Magic Resistance of the Blood Thirster to counter the Orb since as a flyer the Blood Thirster will be affected?

I would say yes as this is a stituation similiar to the TK Casket of Souls whereby anything unit on the field with magical resistance with an LoS to the casket can contribute to dispelling the casket.

What sez the masses?

Festus
27-05-2007, 14:03
Nope, the spell is not cast at the unit.

Festus

T10
27-05-2007, 14:14
I disagree. The Orb of Thunder has an effect that directly affects Flyers, and thus the (best) Magic Resistance of any Flyer affected should apply.

A Casket of Souls incantation is not cast "at a unit" either, but still affects units according to certain criteria. I have not heard any good reason for not allowing the use of Magic Resistance against the Casket of Souls.

-T10

Festus
27-05-2007, 14:24
Hi

Casket of soul affects units directly, OoT doesn't: It affects the Battlefield - just like the Comet of Cassandora it may not be dispelled with the aid of MR, as it does not affect units directly. It affects the whole of the Tabletop.

The casket affects units dy dealing damage directly.

Festus

ZomboCom
27-05-2007, 15:30
Hmm, Festus I think you may be wrong on this one.

The only reason MR can't be used against the comet is because at the time of casting there is no way of knowing which units will be affected.

The orb is different, and since it clearly affects all flyers on the table, MR from flyers can be used.

Festus
27-05-2007, 15:36
Hi

*The Orb of Thunder contains a powerful spell that wreaks turmoil in the air, summoning dark thunderclouds and mighty winds.*
The spell in the OoT affects the sky and the winds, not the units on the table but the battlefield.

Thus no MR of a unit may be used.

You may see it differently, but my interpretation is very stable on this one. Play as you may, I will not give this to you in a game.

Festus

T10
27-05-2007, 15:40
Pray tell, how is the wind that buffets the Bloodthirster different from the heat of the Fireball that sears the Stone Troll?

-T10

Negativemoney
27-05-2007, 15:52
I'm going to agree with the notion that you get the highest MR of any flyer that is on the table as it does directly effect them.

Festus
27-05-2007, 16:16
Pray tell, how is the wind that buffets the Bloodthirster different from the heat of the Fireball that sears the Stone Troll?
You are not really asking that, are you? How is the steel of the blade then any different from the Fireball? May I use my MR against hits in CC, or against missile hits??? :eyebrows:

The Fireball is Magic, a Magic Phenomenon, which comes into contact with the Creature, hence the MR. The Orb affects the Winds and sky, there is no Magic within the sphere of influence of the BT. It is just air, normal air, fast normal air. The Magic is in the cause of the motion, it is not the motion itself. A fireball is Magic itself, not the cause of it...

Festus

Ganymede
27-05-2007, 16:36
You didn't quite get what he was saying festus. He is saying that if by casting this spell to summon a storm that hampers a unit, how is it any more indirect than casting a spell that summons forth a gout of fire that harms a unit?

Would Mistress of the marsh follow your same formula? Would the spell not really target a unit, but instead target a patch of soggy ground... which in turn indirectly affects the unit above it?

Or heck, certainly the rats summoned by vermintide aren't inherently magical, and one could argue that a uranon's lightning bolt comming down from the sky is a regular bolt. In fact, let's get out out D&D books and check out some pointers for determining the difference between evocation and conjuration.

theunwantedbeing
27-05-2007, 16:53
You get magical resistance against things that target you.
ie
Mistress of the marsh
Fireball
Drain life
these all target units.

Things like
the comet of cassandora
Possibly cleansing flare

Without the wording of the item I cant say whether it does target fliers,but as far as I can tell fro the previous posts it seems you wont get your magic resistance as it doesnt target them,but nobody's proved this.

T10
27-05-2007, 16:54
Magic Resistance: Where fluff anf game mechanics collide! :)

Anyways: The actual MR rules are as folows:

"The number in the brackets indiates the maximum number of extra dice that may be rolled when trying to dispel each spell tha affects the magically resistant model. Thes can either be used on their own against any spell targeted against the unit, or in combination with dispel dice from Wizards or other sources."

(Interestingly, you appear to be limited to Magic Resistance only, or a standard dispel roll without MR against spell directly targeted against the unit. Awkward!)

Anyways, MR kicks in if the unit is affected by the spell. Grounding Flyers is an effect of the Orb of Thunder as specified in the spell description and it therefore affects Flyers.

-T10

Festus
27-05-2007, 18:40
Invocation of the Ice Storm (Kislev Ice Magic) is another one of those spells that affect the Battlefield, and not any unit in particular.

The difference as I see it is:

You don't cast a spell at a unit. Even the Casket casts at units: All units can be affected by the spell.

Spells that are cast at the battlefield may have no effect whatsoeven on any unit at all. They just change the surroundings. If there are no flyers, the Orb has no effect, if there are no shooters, the Invocation has no effect, if there are no units close to the Comet's impacet, the Comet has no effect. It is just there, like a force of nature - and that's what I think it is.

Festus

theunwantedbeing
27-05-2007, 18:44
Does the spell state that it affects the battlefield though,or does it state that it affects fliers?
If its the latter you get you rmagic resistance against it.

lparigi34
27-05-2007, 19:10
"Bound Spell. Power Level 4. Remains in play. When the Orb of Thunder spell is in play, flying creatures on the battlefield cannot fly and must move on the ground at their normal Movement rate"

This is the quote for the wording of the item (ignoring the fluff). No effect on the winds, the weather or the battlefield itself but directly on flying units, so I firmly support the use of the highest MR available to flyers on the battlefield.

Note that this spell affect units for both sides of the battlefield.

Atrahasis
27-05-2007, 22:32
(Interestingly, you appear to be limited to Magic Resistance only, or a standard dispel roll without MR against spell directly targeted against the unit. Awkward!)You might want to reread that rule you just quoted - it uses the words "extra" and "combination".

Ganymede
28-05-2007, 00:59
Spells that are cast at the battlefield may have no effect whatsoeven on any unit at all. They just change the surroundings.

Festus


Correct, just like how Fiery Blast has no effect whatsoever on any units, it merely causes the surrounding environment to become explosively hot.

DeathlessDraich
28-05-2007, 11:18
pg 95 Magic Resistance: "The number in brackets ...etc ..of extra dice that may be rolled when trying to dispel each spell that affects the magically resistant model."

The important phrase here is "affects the model".
Magic resistance of a model can be used if it is *affected* by the spell.

Orb of Thunder Empire pg 69 (my fav number!:p ) "When the Orb is in play ...[all] flying creatures cannot fly and must move..."

The Orb *affects* flying creatures, presumably all of them.
Therefore the Bloodthirster's Magic resistance can be used against it but...**

I think Festus's argument is very similar to how MR will affect the Comet.
When Comet is cast and it has not dropped, it does not *affect* any model.
The effects are experienced well after the casting process.
Most players will agree that MR will not affect the Comet

**In the same way, when the Orb is cast, it is cast on the battlefield and will only immediately *affect* creatures who are *actually* flying at the *moment* it is cast.
Flyers are in the air only in the movement phase except for the Disc of Tzeentch which hovers.
This is not stated in the rules, I know, but is a necessary assumption otherwise it will be impossible to charge flyers.

There are now valid arguments for both sides:

For 1:
However it is a Remains in Play bound spell which implies it *will affect* flying creatures when they attempt to fly.

Against 1:
The Comet *will affect* units in the future as well. In fact many RIP spells (e.g. Howler Wind) could affect other units in the future but should future MR be used to dispel a present spell?

If MR can be used during the movement phase, then there is no problem. The Blood thirster could then dispel the Orb with it MR. Since MR is only used in the magic phase, there is now a nebulous problem.

Another question arises from this:
Can MR of character (B), be used during character (B)'s magic phase against RIP spells?
I would say, yes.

T10
28-05-2007, 11:35
Silly Festus! :) How would you dispel a magic arrow or sword?

-T10

Atrahasis
28-05-2007, 14:11
The orb may not affect any flyers at all, the Comet might not either.

Only if, at the time of casting, it is certain that the unit will be affected can MR be used.

Ganymede
28-05-2007, 15:50
Yes, yes ... very helpful :rolleyes:

Well, you wouldn't know that you are talking about a Magic Missile, now would you? :cries:

Just for you, back to the formerly made point: If I can use MR against a Magic Missile, can I use it against a Magic Arrow? Or against an Arrow shot from a Magic Bow? What is it, oh you wise one?

I agree that it might be a fluff explanation. But still I see a difference between spells targeted at units and spells affecting battlefield conditions. If you don't see the difference, feel free to use your MR against the Comet of Cassandora or the Invocation of the Ice Storm, and I will ridicule you no end :eyebrows:

Festus


Based on my one little comment, you have constructed this very grand strawman as to what I am trying to argue. I don't blame you though, it is so much easier to argue with a strawman.

I'll break my arguement down though.

You are arguing that magic resistance shouldn't apply because it is not the casting of the spell that is directly affecting the enemy units, it is instead the buffeting winds and thunder. Not only do I feel this is an unnecessary extrapolation of a line of fluff that does little more than complicate the game, I also feel its implementation on your part is ridiculous.

This deviant logic could be used to rationalise disallowing MR from almost every spell.

"The casting of Uranon's Thunderbolt (not a magic missile despite your assertion) doesn't affect a unit directly, so no MR. All the spell does is summon forth a lightning bolt. The damage to your unit is therefore incidental and indirect."

"The casting of Master of the wood doesn't affect a unit directly, so no MR. All the spell does is enchant a forest to be especially angry at a specific unit. The following effect inflicted by the branches and roots is incidental."

Pretty damn silly eh? That's what you sound like to me.


Instead, we can use a simple lutmus test to determine if we use MR against a spell. At the time of casting, will the spell affect a unit with MR?

The comet? no
The orb? yes

Don't like that system, then be prepared for crap like this.




Casket of soul affects units directly, OoT doesn't: It affects the Battlefield - just like the Comet of Cassandora it may not be dispelled with the aid of MR, as it does not affect units directly.

Festus


The casket of souls only effect is to release very scary ghosts, what those ghosts then do to the units on the battlefield is indirect and incidental.

lparigi34
28-05-2007, 16:01
The orb may not affect any flyers at all, the Comet might not either.

Only if, at the time of casting, it is certain that the unit will be affected can MR be used.

Atrahasis, I truly disagree here. It means that Lord of Rain can't also be MRd since units are not affected until its next shooting phase, same for the Beast Cowers?

I am certain that if the spell is cast and if I don't dispell it unavoidable will affect any MR flyer units in its next movement phase, how in the world can this not happen?

Festus
28-05-2007, 16:23
Only if, at the time of casting, it is certain that the unit will be affected can MR be used.


Instead, we can use a simple lutmus test to determine if we use MR against a spell. At the time of casting, will the spell affect a unit with MR?
Oh, you agree? How nice...

So if the BT is standing on a wood, he may not use his MR, as the spell will not affect him - he is not able to fly at all!

If the BT OTOH is out in the open and in 17" to an enemy unit, it will affect him as he has to fly to complete his frenzied charge?

WTF :rolleyes:

Festus

Ganymede
28-05-2007, 16:48
Oh, you agree? How nice...

So if the BT is standing on a wood, he may not use his MR, as the spell will not affect him - he is not able to fly at all!

If the BT OTOH is out in the open and in 17" to an enemy unit, it will affect him as he has to fly to complete his frenzied charge?

WTF :rolleyes:

Festus


Is it national strawman day in Germany?

The spell's effect is to prevent a flyer from flying. The bloodthirster would still be affected whether or not his ability to fly was supressed from a preceeding spell or consequence. The mentioned bloodthirster in the woods is still a flying creature, and is still prevented from flying by the effect of the spell, so still imparts MR. The fact that the spell's effect is redundant has absolutely no impact on the situation.

It doesn't matter if the bloodthirster doesn't plan on flying, or is currently in the woods and can't fly, he is prevented from using his fly movement.

Borg
28-05-2007, 17:47
A nice discussion so far. If a flying unit is or is not effected seems rather straid forward IMHO.

What I was wondering about is the treatment of the second part of the requirement of magical resistance: "These can either be used on their own against any spell targeted against the unit..."

Does the bound item specifically target the unit? A lot of the spells mention that you target a unit (or units). The Orb of Thunder does not mention that it targets a unit.

DeathlessDraich
28-05-2007, 17:50
At the time of casting, will the spell affect a unit with MR?

The comet? no
The orb? yes
The casket of souls only effect is to release very scary ghosts, what those ghosts then do to the units on the battlefield is indirect and incidental.

This is precisely what I mentioned in my previous post.
At the *moment of casting*, the Orb prevents flying [and then RIP later].

The problem is nothing is flying during any magic phase except a 'floating' Disc of Tzeentch. The rules do not state this but if it is assumed otherwise then nothing blocks LOS to flyers during the magic phase [logically not even terrain!].

To qualify for MR, a spell must *affect* a model at least while being cast. Unfortunately, as Festus mentioned the Orb is cast on the battlefield and *does not affect flyers at the moment of casting* as nothing is flying except DOT.

The orb *will affect* flyers later because of RIP but as I mentioned previously, can a *present* MR be used for a *future effect*?

more below**


Atrahasis, I truly disagree here. It means that Rain Lord can't also be MRd since units are not affected until its next shooting phase, same for the Beast Cowers?


Very relevant points Iparigi.

**Beast Cowers and Rain Lord are cast on a unit and therefore 'affects' the unit at the moment of casting. Therefore the unit can use its MR.
Another example:
Howling Wind is cast on the Wizard himself but affects units within a certain radius. Therefore these units can use their MR to dispel it.

The vital phrase that requires interpretation is "affects the magically resistant model" in the Magic resistance rules.

MR rules do not use the phrases "will affect the model" or "directly or indirectly affects the model".

And

Orb of thunder's rules should have started with the phrase 'This Orb when successfully used, *immediately* affects all flyers' to conclusively support T10's view.

I don't think it is by any means clearcut and I certainly would not play it one way or the other without my opponent's consent.

theunwantedbeing
28-05-2007, 18:33
The orb doesnt say its cast on the battlefield though does it?
It merely says that it prevents fliers from flying right?
So its targetting fliers.
Which means they get magic resistance?

Unless it is stated to be cast on the battlefield.....

Festus
28-05-2007, 18:38
Hi

The orb doesnt say its cast on the battlefield though does it?
It merely says that it prevents fliers from flying right?
So its targetting fliers.
Which means they get magic resistance?

Unless it is stated to be cast on the battlefield.....
... no it does not say that. Neither does it say that it is cast at flyers, or a particular flyer , or even any target at all...

That happens to be one of the problems :)

Festus

Borg
28-05-2007, 18:43
The orb doesnt say its cast on the battlefield though does it?
It merely says that it prevents fliers from flying right?
So its targetting fliers.
Which means they get magic resistance?

Unless it is stated to be cast on the battlefield.....

Good point. To me the above means that they are affected not targetted.

In a way you target the whole battlefield and all the fliers are affected. Interresting.

WLBjork
28-05-2007, 21:24
Following on from DD'srules quote, does that mean that Magic Resistance can be used to prevent Skeletons being raised on a unit in BTB?

After all, the raised Skellies will have an effect...

DeathlessDraich
28-05-2007, 21:46
:D LOL WJBjork.

Yes, raised skellies will have an 'effect' on the unit it is in btb contact.

The loss of the general has an 'effect' on the entire army, in fact one could stretch that further as the loss of any unit in future rounds will have an 'effect' and so on...:D

but I'm sure you won't insist on using MR in these cases.

Ganymede
28-05-2007, 23:06
It all depends on whether or not you limit magic resistance to effects directly related to the casting of a spell.

Ignoring the fluffy text in the item's description, the effect of the spell is to negate the ability for all flying units to fly. When we announce the casting of the spell, we know exactly who is going to be affected by the spell before any dispel attempt. The flyers now can't use their flying ability... it doesn't matter of the only time they can use it is during the movement and close combat phases, the effect is to essentially turn off their ability to fly.

Ninsaneja
29-05-2007, 01:18
Can you MR vanhel's because it would cause a unit with MR to be charged?

I have to agree with Festus, the Orb does not do anything until it is already in play. Much like the comet, it has no effect until after the time of casting and is not cast on any specific target.

EvC
29-05-2007, 02:00
I tend to break things down to the simplest level. Does the casting of the spell specifically affect the unit, no matter how it is cast or who it at, yes or no? If yes, then that unit can use MR. Vanhels wouldn't be the same unless its casting would definitely affect the unit charged, which it never could.

Unlcear rules, so I guess it'd come down to a dice-off...

Negativemoney
29-05-2007, 02:39
MR rules (SRB pg. 95): "The number ... when trying to dispell each spell that affects the magically resistant model."

Flyers (SRB pg 68): "If a model is capable of flight it will have the special rule 'Fly' in its entry in the relevant Army Book. For the sake of convenience these models are refferd to as 'flyers'." "There are two types of of flyers: flying monsters and flying units."

Orb of Thunder (Empire pg. 69): When the Orb of Thunder spell is in play, flying creatures on the battlefield cannot fly and must move on the ground ..."

Bloodthirster (HoC pg 32): " Fly: a Bloodthirster has immense wings which allow it to fly."

The above are the relevant rules for this argument and the one issue I see is with the wording for Orb of Thunder. because of the statement "When the Orb of Thunder spell is in play" might cause most of the confusion with this spell. Since no RiP spell can effect a unit untill it is in play some might say there is no effect untill it is sucessfully cast. This how ever is the same for non RiP spells.

The spell itself does have a strictly defined target for this spell, which is: "flying creatures" and has a range "on the battlefield". From the rules on page 68 we know that a BT is a flying monster. Because he will be directly effected by the spell he will contribute his MR to the dispell roll when the Orb of Thunder is used.

sds661
29-05-2007, 02:40
On the main topic, I'll just put my vote in for YES, MR does work here. (Not a lot of rules based argument from the opposing camp, who are usually adamant this should be the basis of such discussions.)

But on a side issue raised by DD ...



Another question arises from this:
Can MR of character (B), be used during character (B)'s magic phase against RIP spells?
I would say, yes.

My group only ever used MR at the time of casting. Perhaps this is a misconception. Can MR be used against RiP spells? And if so, can it be done in both magic phases (yours and your opponent's)?

Negativemoney
29-05-2007, 02:43
sds661 and DD, Judging from the rules I posted above it does indeed look like MR can be used in every magic phase in which a RiP spell is effecting the unit. Nothing in the rules say that it is only for when spells are cast.

Ninsaneja
29-05-2007, 17:35
Rules based argument? It does not affect flyers at the time of casting. It is not cast on any flyers nor does it do anything to them as it is cast. To me taking MR on OoT would be like taking it on a IoN as exampled earlier or taking it on a Portent of Far. Yes, these spells MIGHT affect you IN THE FUTURE. But as they are cast, they neither target nor affect you and so you may not take MR at the time of the casting.

EDIT: In further support of my declaration of MIGHT rather than WILL, let's say that all flyers with MR proceed to die in the same magic phase that OoT is used in. They will never be affected by OoT. Why did you get MR? You shouldn't have.

Ganymede
29-05-2007, 19:46
Might affect you in the future? The orb most definitely affects a flyer right when the spell is cast. The effect of the spell is to shut off its flying special ability.

Arguing that MR doesn't affect the orb of thunder because the alck of ability to fly won't come into play till (at least) the close combat phase is like arguing the same thing with commandment of brass on a chariot; the chariot's inability to move won't have any affect until his movement phase.

Atrahasis
29-05-2007, 19:54
The spell targets the "Fly" special rule and not any unit. :D

sulla
29-05-2007, 21:14
Rules based argument? It does not affect flyers at the time of casting. It is not cast on any flyers nor does it do anything to them as it is cast. To me taking MR on OoT would be like taking it on a IoN as exampled earlier or taking it on a Portent of Far. Yes, these spells MIGHT affect you IN THE FUTURE. But as they are cast, they neither target nor affect you and so you may not take MR at the time of the casting.


That's a fairly nebulous argument, by that logic, neither could you use magic resistance against a spell that lowered stats or stoped movement since neither of those is being used in the enemy magic phase at that time.

All flyers are the target of the spell. You get to use the best MR of any of them.

Festus
29-05-2007, 22:53
All flyers are the target of the spell. You get to use the best MR of any of them.
No, this is untrue: flyers are definitely not (!) the *target* of the spell, although the spell might affect them.

Festus

Negativemoney
30-05-2007, 02:47
No, this is untrue: flyers are definitely not (!) the *target* of the spell, although the spell might affect them.

Festus

The spell will effect them. As I have shown all it needs to do is affect them for them to contribute their MR.

sulla
30-05-2007, 07:47
No, this is untrue: flyers are definitely not (!) the *target* of the spell, although the spell might affect them.

Festus

Flyers are the only thing the spell affects. They are the object of attack of the spell. Don't get caught up in the fluff of the spell.

Festus
30-05-2007, 08:16
Flyers are the only thing the spell affects. I do not disagree, but they are not *target* of the spell still - as the spell is not an attack, and neither a Magic Missile, they cannot be the *target* of the spell.

Question: If a spell wipes out or panics the unit protecting the Flank of a MR unit, and a flank charge by a waiting unt becomes inavoidable, may I use MR? After all, it affects the MR unit very much...

Festus

T10
30-05-2007, 08:33
I doubt you would find that in the spell description, so no.

-T10

Negativemoney
30-05-2007, 08:45
Question: If a spell wipes out or panics the unit protecting the Flank of a MR unit, and a flank charge by a waiting unt becomes inavoidable, may I use MR? After all, it affects the MR unit very much...


I would say no because at the time of casting there is no direct effect on the unit with MR and because of this you would not be able to use it.

This is diffrent from OoT, because OoT explicitly states who is affected by this spell. regardless of when the spell effect would occur (not any domino effects of the spell), ie. when the unit makes a move, the unit now has this spell affecting him. This can be seen by the spells discription, which was state in my previous post, where it gives you a list of models affected. For MR to apply the spell just needs to have an affect on the unit at the time of casting. For OoT there is such an affect.

EvC
30-05-2007, 12:51
I do not disagree, but they are not *target* of the spell still - as the spell is not an attack, and neither a Magic Missile, they cannot be the *target* of the spell.

Question: If a spell wipes out or panics the unit protecting the Flank of a MR unit, and a flank charge by a waiting unt becomes inavoidable, may I use MR? After all, it affects the MR unit very much...

Come on, you can come up with a better example than that! How about if a spell were to make all Cavalry models with 12" halve their movement, should they get to use any MR there?

Chicago Slim
30-05-2007, 17:59
Okay, so as far as I can tell, we have an issue of semantics, and the distinction between "target" and "affected model."

Clearly, some spells have a "target model" or set of "target models" (magic missiles are a clear example). Such "targeted" spells obviously limit their "affected models" to their "targets". "Targeted" spells have a clear, 1:1 relationship between "target" and "affected model(s)."

Other spells are "untargeted", while stills others "target" specific pieces of terrain, specific points on the table, or other "targets". I'll generically refer to these as "untargeted" spells (even if they target a non-model thing).
Such "untargeted" spells may, or might not, have a clear set of "affected model(s)". The Comet of Cassandora, for example, might not affect any models at all. The Orb of Thunder, on the other hand, clearly affects all enemy fliers.

As has been noted, Magic Resistance can be used if the MR-having model is affected by a spell. I posit that this means MR is usable, even if the MR-having model is not the "target" of that spell, and despite the subsequent reference in the MR rules to "target"s.

That second sentence is, I admit, a bit troubling, and allows for further debate.


So, this has been a fussy bit of linguistics and logic, but I think it's what we're down to, here: Festus, you appear to have been mostly pointing out that other posters are incorrectly using "target" when they ought to say "affected model(s)." Is this correct?

lparigi34
30-05-2007, 19:40
I do not disagree, but they are not *target* of the spell still - as the spell is not an attack, and neither a Magic Missile, they cannot be the *target* of the spell.

Question: If a spell wipes out or panics the unit protecting the Flank of a MR unit, and a flank charge by a waiting unt becomes inavoidable, may I use MR? After all, it affects the MR unit very much...

Festus

Wohaaaa... Festus, you've outdone yourself :)

About the targetted vs. affected the rule clearly says affected (at least in the Spanish vesion) and the OoT has a clearly stated direct effect on all flyer units on the table.

Festus
30-05-2007, 20:03
Hi

You are getting close: When is a unit affected by a spell's effect? At which point do we decide that a unit is affected (and thus may use its MR) , and when is it not?

What do we go with in deciding? What are the criteria? Why can't you use MR against the comet - but can use it against the OoT?

Do you see my problem - strawmen as they might be according to one poster?

We all know, that GW's terminology is all but concise and consistent. But that puts the task of deciding the border-line-cases on the players themselves. So I have to ask again? On which basis do you decide?

As I said before:


*The Orb of Thunder contains a powerful spell that wreaks turmoil in the air, summoning dark thunderclouds and mighty winds.*
The spell in the OoT affects the sky and the winds, not the units on the table but the battlefield.

Thus no MR of a unit may be used.

You may see it differently, but my interpretation is very stable on this one. Play as you may, I will not give this to you in a game.

I made my decision, and I back it up with the only argument I can, in a situation where the rules are obviously failing in this area: Fluff and Intent.

Festus

Ganymede
30-05-2007, 20:52
I'll repeat, the litmus test is clear. You apply MR if the spell affects something with MR right at the moment of casting.

Right at the moment of casting, all flyers are forbidden from using their flight movement. This is no different from a spell that applies a penalty to attack. In both cases, they have a very immeadiate effect. In our case, as soon as the spell is cast, the enemy flyers can not fly.

Doc Havoc
30-05-2007, 22:28
Hi

You are getting close: When is a unit affected by a spell's effect? At which point do we decide that a unit is affected (and thus may use its MR) , and when is it not?

What do we go with in deciding? What are the criteria? Why can't you use MR against the comet - but can use it against the OoT?

Do you see my problem - strawmen as they might be according to one poster?

We all know, that GW's terminology is all but concise and consistent. But that puts the task of deciding the border-line-cases on the players themselves. So I have to ask again? On which basis do you decide?

As I said before:



I made my decision, and I back it up with the only argument I can, in a situation where the rules are obviously failing in this area: Fluff and Intent.

Festus

This is your argument? There aren't even any rules in this argument. You argument is about splitting the hairs on a Devil's advocate while hinging everything on a single word existing in a vaccum.

If you only focus on the word "targeted" then you are correct. But the problem with that is thate there are lots of other words that form an idea and are used to interpret the idea into the actual rules. Those rules include "affected" models. As such Magic Resistance would work in this case.

As such I think this is a classic case of trolling that needs to be addressed.

Baindread
30-05-2007, 23:25
If you only focus on the word "targeted" then you are correct. But the problem with that is thate there are lots of other words that form an idea and are used to interpret the idea into the actual rules. Those rules include "affected" models. As such Magic Resistance would work in this case.


By your interpretation perhaps. Other people might disagree. Whoaw, look at this. We have one of those situations right here :rolleyes:



As such I think this is a classic case of trolling that needs to be addressed.

Yeah, don't you just hate it when people are trying to discuss? :eyebrows:

Atrahasis
31-05-2007, 00:28
As such I think this is a classic case of trolling that needs to be addressed.I refer you to Festus' sig. Thank you.

WLBjork
31-05-2007, 05:40
The thing is, if you take the "affected" word as literal, it breaks too many spells.

If I raise Skellies on a unit in CC with a Magically Resistant unit, the Magically Resistant unit is affected, but the unit shouldn't get their MR bonus.

If I use Vanhel's Danse Macabre on a unit of Zombies to get a rear charge in on the above unit, the unit is again affected but there should be no MR bonus.

What would be most useful is for GW to go through each spell (or spell-like ability/MI) and alter each slightly by adding an "affects" list which clearly defines what is affected by the spell, and only things in this list can use their MR.

Festus
31-05-2007, 06:35
Hi

Thanks for your support, guys. And no, I don't troll - generally.

Doc Havoc - From a rules perspectiv, I may hinge my argument on a single word - and what is wrong with that? But that word is not *target* but *affect*! Everything you do in the game *affects* a unit or other. Therein lies the poblem...

*targetting* is pretty much defined (although even this becomes blurry at the edges), but *affected* is a non-word from a rules-perspective, as long as it is not defined somewhere, it is a catch-all-term.
This is the crux of the argument whether MR can be used or not.

And this is, what the discussion is about: Can MR be used in this case, against the OoT?

If you call my point of view trolling, then it does not speak for your ability to allow different perspectives to your own - so it may be time for me to put you on my ignore list... :(

Festus

Negativemoney
31-05-2007, 06:40
If I raise Skellies on a unit in CC with a Magically Resistant unit, the Magically Resistant unit is affected, but the unit shouldn't get their MR bonus.


Not true. There is no change in the status of the unit with MR after the spell is cast. The unit remains in the same condition as it did before the spell was cast.



If I use Vanhel's Danse Macabre on a unit of Zombies to get a rear charge in on the above unit, the unit is again affected but there should be no MR bonus.


Not true. The dance only grants the unit the ability to move/charge. after the spell is cast the unit now can make an additional move. Because the unit is not compelled to do anything after the resolution of the spell there is no definative effect on the MR unit.



What would be most useful is for GW to go through each spell (or spell-like ability/MI) and alter each slightly by adding an "affects" list which clearly defines what is affected by the spell, and only things in this list can use their MR.

I think that all the spells are very clear in who they effect. There is a scope to each spell and that scope must be taken into consideration.

If a model with MR is within the scope of the spell when cast (or in the effected area of a RiP spell) it will contribute is MR in dispell dice.

With the OoT the scope is clearly defined as "Flying creatures on the Battelfield". This denotes that all models with the Fly Special ability on the board are affected by this spell. Thus if a unit with MR has the fly ability it will be affected by the spell.

EvC
31-05-2007, 13:02
Yes, let's be clear, there's a difference between being actively affected (Movement cut, hits taken etc.) and passively affected (Charged as a result of movement spell). What about Tomb Kings' Smiting though? It instantly gives a Tomb Kings units a free strike against their opponents, who are most definitely affected there and then! Do you get to use MR against that?

lparigi34
31-05-2007, 13:08
Hi....Thanks for your support, guys. And no, I don't troll - generally.....Festus

No, you don't! :p (I mean it).

In this I support Festus, for one time. Come on Doc Havoc, calling Troll somebody who is known to be the most stubborn of the high count posters in the forum is definetely a lack of sense of humour, and trying to provoke somebody who didn't fell for it puts you in a weak position :rolleyes:

I love the spirit that usually is around this forum, In fact, opening it is the first thing I do in the mornings before starting my labourous day and most of the times it puts me in quite a good mood. Believe me, Festus posts, even when being Festus at its bests, have to do a lot with it :evilgrin:

lparigi34
31-05-2007, 13:18
As for the rule, it does not say "inmediatly affected", just says "affected", and as I stated and underlined in my previous post, directly.

IMO, if the unit is directly affected, it can use its MR. Else, many spells that don't allow units to move on following turns, reduce Ld or other direct but not inmediate effect would not trigger MR, I really doubt this is how this was meant to be played.

Doc Havoc
31-05-2007, 15:08
I refer you to Festus' sig. Thank you.

Oh, do you mean the part about the designers not hiding "Easter Eggs" in the rules?

Thanks for making my point.

Festus is actually suggesting that the spell does not affect any models or units in th game and it just affects the sky and the wind.

Ok, can you show me what kind of terrain feature that wind is?... Er, what kind of model is that?... Hmm, what does this spell do anyways? If your interpretation is that it does not target or effect anything that is actually covered by the rules in the game then what is the point of the spell?

No need to put you on my ignore list. I can do that by myself. Although occasionally you are so far off base from the general intent of the rules I feel the need to chime in. Even Festus' supporters agree that it is a rediculous idea that is only possible through the most narrow and skewed interpretation of the rules. (Otherwise known as RAW, which I have yet to find in my rulebook.)
Read the spell... read page 3.... the intent is clear. For someone to say they would not allow it in a game is rediculous.

And the fact that Festus continues to argue the same point over and over for 4 pages smacks of trolling.

Atrahasis
31-05-2007, 15:50
Read the spell... read page 3.... the intent is clear.If it was, then there wouldn't be a debate.


And the fact that Festus continues to argue the same point over and over for 4 pages smacks of trolling.It takes two to tango, and of the two of you I've only ever seen one resort to name-calling and ad-hominems.

Just to try and break the deadlock somewhat, I often in my Empire Pegasus army (4 characters on pegasi) take the OoT as a surprise tactic. Pegasi still have decent movement and flee/pursue 3d6" under the influence of the Orb so it can be useful if the enemy also has flyers.

My question is this : what if one of my captains on pegasus has magic resistance? Can the enemy use it against me when I try to release the power of the orb?

WLBjork
31-05-2007, 16:06
Not true. There is no change in the status of the unit with MR after the spell is cast. The unit remains in the same condition as it did before the spell was cast.



Not true. The dance only grants the unit the ability to move/charge. after the spell is cast the unit now can make an additional move. Because the unit is not compelled to do anything after the resolution of the spell there is no definative effect on the MR unit.



I think that all the spells are very clear in who they effect. There is a scope to each spell and that scope must be taken into consideration.

If a model with MR is within the scope of the spell when cast (or in the effected area of a RiP spell) it will contribute is MR in dispell dice.

With the OoT the scope is clearly defined as "Flying creatures on the Battelfield". This denotes that all models with the Fly Special ability on the board are affected by this spell. Thus if a unit with MR has the fly ability it will be affected by the spell.

Well done for managing to completely ignore the point of my post :rolleyes:

As Festus said in the next post down from mine, the word "affected" is simply too loose (even for GW) to have any value whatsoever.

Saying "directly" or "immediately" affecting the unit is changing what the rule says - the only requirement is that the unit (well, strictly model, but I prefer the catch-all-term of unit) is affected.

Edit: Atrahasis - my view is that as you own the model with MR *you* choose how many extra dice are rolled when your opponent attemts to dispel, so personally I'd choose zero :D or of course, all to try and force a double 1! :evilgrin:

Captain Brown
31-05-2007, 16:30
Thread closed pending an investigation of some rather poor posts.

Remember folks; take a moment to read what you post before you hit reply. If you think it might offend the other poster (because you attack them personally), then it probably will and therefore should not be posted.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition