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BarbedHawk
27-05-2007, 13:23
If the Tyranids take genes from other races (something like that), for example Biovores are supposed to come from Orks, Zoanthrope from the Eldar and so on. Does that mean the other foms, such as Carnifexes and Lictors etc., come from races in other galaxies? After all, they were meant to travel from galaxy to galaxy.

Also, have the Tau ever encountered the Nids? Would they be able to put up a good fight? Or would they be wiped out easily? And if any of the more powerful races such as Necrons, the Imperium and Chaos ever bothered to launch a focused 'Extermination' against the Tau, would they stand any chance of survival?

Cheers for any comments.

Slaaneshi Slave
27-05-2007, 13:31
Tau are a flyspeck of an Empire.

Rabid Bunny 666
27-05-2007, 13:38
The Tau did have a Splinter fleet in their empire (They sent ambassadors :D)

Carnifexes, Warriors, Hive Tyrants and Gaunts are from another Galaxy, but newer species, as well as adaptations to the olod ones, are using this Galaxy's Genetic info.

Bruen
27-05-2007, 13:47
If the Tyranids take genes from other races (something like that), for example Biovores are supposed to come from Orks, Zoanthrope from the Eldar and so on. Does that mean the other foms, such as Carnifexes and Lictors etc., come from races in other galaxies?

Not really. The Norn queens mix and match genes from races that they have encountered to produce designs for new creatures so the designs for Carnifexes and Lictors could simply be mixes of several races or made up by the Norn queens from their own R&D. Its not as simple as "eat an ork - become a biovore".


Also, have the Tau ever encountered the Nids?

Yes, according to the Tau Empires codex Commander Shadowsun has lead sucessful attacks on the Tyranid and I assume that there is a general state of continuous low-level war between the Tau and the Tyranid. They are certainly experiencing attacks from splinter fleets.


Would they be able to put up a good fight? Or would they be wiped out easily?

Based on what we have in the codex the Tau are holding their own against the splinter fleets, how they would fare against an entire Tyranid fleet is another question.


And if any of the more powerful races such as Necrons, the Imperium and Chaos ever bothered to launch a focused 'Extermination' against the Tau, would they stand any chance of survival?

The Imperium has already tried, with the Damocles Crusade, but that ground to a halt and the Imperium was forced to withdraw. Afterwards the Tau recaptured all of their lose territory. I am sure that next time the Imperium will try harder.

Cirenivel
27-05-2007, 14:24
If the Tyranids take genes from other races (something like that), for example Biovores are supposed to come from Orks, Zoanthrope from the Eldar and so on. Does that mean the other foms, such as Carnifexes and Lictors etc., come from races in other galaxies? After all, they were meant to travel from galaxy to galaxy.


Remember that there's more types of animals out there than just the known intelligent ones. There's thing such as chameleons, horses, elephants and all kinds of alien life forms, so there's really no way to know for sure wich genes different tyranids are made from. Also remember that there's usually more than one type of genes in each tyranid organism (or else they would just be the animal that they came from)



Also, have the Tau ever encountered the Nids?


Yes, they have.



Would they be able to put up a good fight? Or would they be wiped out easily?

They do, indeed, put up a good fight, or else they wouldn't exist anymore.



And if any of the more powerful races such as Necrons, the Imperium and Chaos ever bothered to launch a focused 'Extermination' against the Tau, would they stand any chance of survival?


The imperium has launched a crusade into tau space. They drove the tau back to Dal'Yth, where the entire crusade turned into a stalemate.
Then the imperium had to leave because of some tyranid fleets, and the tau reclaimed the worlds that they had lost (and some more on top of that)

Chaos would probably not try to crush the tau empire for a very long time, as they hang out on the other side of the galaxy, and they really tries to kill the emperor and would therefore probably not exhaust their resources by trying to destroy some un-important dudes on the other side of the galaxy.

I can't say anything about necrons, as they haven't really shown their true force yet, and I like to belive that if you take out the phase-out worlds (the place they go to when phasing out) then you would really finish them off.

Cirenivel

Slaaneshi Slave
27-05-2007, 14:30
Ordo Xenos have already taken out several Tomb Worlds by putting tracking devices on Necrons as they phase out, and picking up where they reappear, then blowing the stuffing out of the planets with rapid Exterminatus strikes.

Sojourner
27-05-2007, 14:49
The Tau are probably pretty good at fighting Tyranids, as they're highly mobile, have good communications and can concentrate a massive amount of firepower at pinpoint locations. They can also keep out of the way.

stormblade
27-05-2007, 15:42
The Tau are probably pretty good at fighting Tyranids, as they're highly mobile, have good communications and can concentrate a massive amount of firepower at pinpoint locations. They can also keep out of the way.

-You cannot keep yourself out of the way of a Tyranid- they are everywhere.(Tyranids deny you mobility through the sheer force of their numbers)

Sephiroth
27-05-2007, 16:23
Well, the Tau would be a harder challenge for the Imperium than say, the Sabbat Worlds Campaign, which featured the Imperium trying to re-take a chain of nearly one hundred inhabited systems along the edge of the Segmentum Pacificus.

The Tau Empire by contrast, is an area of 300 light years, with well over a hundred systems, twenty heavily settled "Septs" and various alien protectorates, in addition to the Tau being on the rimward-side of the Damocles Gulf - hindering Imperial supply lines.

five01st
27-05-2007, 17:36
Mind you, the Damocles Gulf Crussade was a badly funded experience. Part of a chapter went on to take on an entire Empire of two races (back then it was only Kroot and Tau). Without reinforcements, and the Tau calling in reinforcements by the day, the Imperials were forced to stand down and talk or go for a last stand, eventually. Great example of a war of attrition lost by the SMs and strangely, won by the Tau. Though a full purge of the Tau Empire would be a massive diversion of resources of which I doubt the Imperium is willing to reallocate in the face of more present threats like Chaos, Orks, the 'Nids and so on. However, the 'Nids have full capability of taking on the Tau Empire but as the Ultramarines have shown, its possible to stop a massive seige like the 'Nids. The Tau will be able to call in on quite a few more allies. Who knows.

heretics bane
27-05-2007, 17:53
And the tau dont use pyskers to send intergalactic message so there is no problem by the hive mind numing communications

Bruen
27-05-2007, 17:54
We also have no record of the Shadow in the Warp affecting Tau starships.

Slaaneshi Slave
27-05-2007, 17:56
Even without them being affected by the Shadow, they are still slow as all hell compared to every other race.

TheSonOfAbbadon
27-05-2007, 18:22
But, doesn't the Shadow prevent all warp travel, but not Tau warp travel as they don't actually go into the warp?

Therefore, with the Shadow around, a Tau spaceship can use it's semi-warp travell, whereas other ships have to use their normal engines. So, with the Shadow around, Tau spaceships would move faster than all other spaceships.

Slaaneshi Slave
27-05-2007, 18:27
If it takes the Tau 2 months to get to the area with the Shadow, and it takes other races three hours, they are still going to be way behind, even if the advanced races are stuck travelling at 0.95c.

Bregalad
27-05-2007, 18:46
Remember that the Tau Empire is spreading and having more and more Xeno races and/or allies, some of them able to warp travel, like Kroot and Demiurg (perhaps even some fractions of the Eldar according to rumours). The Tau Empire still is small, with limited resources and population (compared to humans, Orks, and Tyranids), but not easy to take out anymore. And it is growing stronger, esp. technologically.

Pain
27-05-2007, 19:05
Well, the Tau would be a harder challenge for the Imperium than say, the Sabbat Worlds Campaign, which featured the Imperium trying to re-take a chain of nearly one hundred inhabited systems along the edge of the Segmentum Pacificus.

The Tau Empire by contrast, is an area of 300 light years, with well over a hundred systems, twenty heavily settled "Septs" and various alien protectorates, in addition to the Tau being on the rimward-side of the Damocles Gulf - hindering Imperial supply lines.

Hmm I'm not so sure that the Damocles Crusade (DC) and The Sabbat Worlds Crusade are playing in the same league. The DC AFAIK prepared and executed one planetary assault at a time whereas the the Sabbat World Crusade is/was an Multi-System campaign with several Battlegroups, each of the same size or even larger than the Damocles Crusade (DC: 19 IG Regiments, 12 Capital Ships, Contingents from a dozen SM Chapters), acting simultaneously. E.g. the opening move of the Sabbat Worlds Crusade was an assault on 4 different systems/planets - almost a billion Imperial Guardsmen, six whole Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes along with Titan Legions (plural!) participated. (p. 14, The Sabbat Worlds Crusade). There was no Warmaster appointed for the DC further indicating its rather small scale.

IMO a military campaign the same size as the Sabbat Worlds Crusade would be a severe threat for the Tau Empire.

Cirenivel
27-05-2007, 19:21
Even without them being affected by the Shadow, they are still slow as all hell compared to every other race.

Really? I thougth that the only limit was that sonce they kinda just skipped in the surface of the warp, so that they were just limited to shorter distances, not that they moved any slower than the other races that dive right into the middst of the warp...
Could be just me though....

Cirenivel

Bruen
27-05-2007, 19:48
Therefore, with the Shadow around, a Tau spaceship can use it's semi-warp travell, whereas other ships have to use their normal engines. So, with the Shadow around, Tau spaceships would move faster than all other spaceships.

Precisely.

Slaaneshi Slave
27-05-2007, 20:01
Not all other ships - Necrons don't make use of warp travel, and are still the fastest race, and I believe Eldar Webways still work.

Twisted Ferret
27-05-2007, 20:09
The Imperium has already tried, with the Damocles Crusade, but that ground to a halt and the Imperium was forced to withdraw. Afterwards the Tau recaptured all of their lose territory. I am sure that next time the Imperium will try harder.
The Imperium was only forced to withdraw because of the Tyranid; I wouldn't call it a Tau victory, as another poster does (especially because even with such a tiny crusade the Tau were still fought to a standstill!).

Bruen
27-05-2007, 20:22
Not all other ships - Necrons don't make use of warp travel, and are still the fastest race, and I believe Eldar Webways still work.

Thats true, I've always wondered about the Shadow and the Webway - is there any fluff in which they both come into play?

Sephiroth
27-05-2007, 20:24
The Imperium was only forced to withdraw because of the Tyranid; I wouldn't call it a Tau victory, as another poster does (especially because even with such a tiny crusade the Tau were still fought to a standstill!).

So was the Imperium. And you're incorrect. The Imperium were already planning to withdraw. The Tyranids/message from Kryptman simply decided the matter:


Their advance halted, the Imperial forces, commanded in this operation by General Wendall Gauge, had to dig in to avoid the worst of the Tau firepower. The Tau possessed superior night-fighting capabilities which they exploited, moving up to extreme range and opening fire, only to withdraw at dawn. Space marine combat patrols helped, but losses continued to mount. This was compounded by the constant worry that a new Tau fleet would arrive; the crusade fleet was badly damaged and could barely protect its transports, let alone provide cover for the army. As the siege ground on more Tau arrived at the front each day.

General Gauge concluded that the crusade had stumbled onto a major Tau world and that his resources were insufficient for the task set them. Plentiful reinforcements had been promised at the outset but none had arrived. Inquisitor Grand was all for evacuation followed by exterminatus, as the Tau were clearly too dangerous to be allowed to exist. The army had found the Tau to be honourable adversaries, however, and there was a marked opposition to such an extreme sanction within the high command. While the crusader council was paralysed by internal debate, General Gauge acted. He formed the Titans up with the Brimlock regiments and attempted to force the river line down the right flank, trapping the Tau against the sea. As preparation, his artillery pounded other sectors and the Imperial Navy fighters began an offensive against Tau airfields that was costly but kept Tau flyers form the front. The Imperial strike force took their primary objective in the first few hours – a town containing a bridge, and achieved complete surprise. As the assault continued, it was countered by ultra-mobile Tau units deployed from the ubiquitous Manta missile destroyers. For the rest of the day, a running battle was fought through the Dal’yth suburbs which ended with the Emporium a mere five miles away from trapping tens of thousands of Tau. Overnight, the Tau disengaged and fell back to another defensive line beyond Gel’bryn. By the morning the Tau were gone and, while the city itself was infested by lurking Kroot, the starport on the outskirts was quickly secured.

The starport, combined with the distance which the Tau had retired, made an excellent opportunity for evacuation and General Gauge took it. Resistance from the Inquisition and Adeptus Astartes was overruled by express order from Inquisitor Kryptman to return to Brimlock with all available forces. The Tau sensibly realised that getting in the way would serve no sane purpose and parleys held under flags of truce were honoured by both sides. The first seeds of cooperation were sown, though these would take time to bloom in the aftermath of such a brutal conflict.

The Imperium were already planning to retreat.

stormblade
27-05-2007, 21:02
"Inquisitor Grand was all for evacuation followed by exterminatus, as the Tau were clearly too dangerous to be allowed to exist. The army had found the Tau to be honourable adversaries, however, and there was a marked opposition to such an extreme sanction within the high command"

- Odd, I always thought the Imperium to be above(below) acknowledging any of its enemies as honorable.

And I think that Tau would have even more trouble that the Imperium when it comes to fending off the Tyranid menace- Mainly because they do not have the Adeptus Astrates guarding them(The Emperor's Angels) and because they wouldn't be as quick as to exterminate the population of the whole planet in order to stop the infestation from spreading.(they don't have the Inquisition)

Mr Zephy
27-05-2007, 21:36
But one advantage is that apart from orks and the occasional dark eldar raid, they'd be able to completely focus on the Tyranids, with the whole of the empire. The Imperium is slower to gather forces for a single purpose.

Elric
27-05-2007, 21:52
I often wonder whats going to happen when a load of psychic races join the Tau empire (including human renegades). Will the Tau be forced to create their own version of the inquisition or will they die in a warp spawned hell? Well, we can only hope.....
E

BarbedHawk
27-05-2007, 21:58
I expect that they will avoid an Inquisition type behaviour. After all, I believe that the races absorbed into the Empire have maintained their own control over the planets and race itself? If so, the individual races themselves will probably control it all, with oversight from the Tau of course. 9/10 those psychic races will be able to control their powers or have some knowledge of the dangers, or I expect they would've been destroyed before their absorbtion.

Mr Zephy
27-05-2007, 22:06
Knowing the Tau they'll work out how psychic powers work and produce a technological defence.

Slaaneshi Slave
27-05-2007, 22:07
Technological defence against psychic powers? Chain a psychic blank to your leg! Does that count as technological?

Adra
27-05-2007, 23:33
I expect that they will avoid an Inquisition type behaviour. After all, I believe that the races absorbed into the Empire have maintained their own control over the planets and race itself? If so, the individual races themselves will probably control it all, with oversight from the Tau of course.

The Tau are darker than you think...


Technological defence against psychic powers? Chain a psychic blank to your leg! Does that count as technological?

Well such things already exist on a small scale. Ravanor books refer to blocker equipment. Ofc it does not block out the most powerful psychic powers but still...who knows what the Tau could cook up.


The Taus biggest problem with warp travel is ignorance. they just dont get how bad it is without the right protection...getting into the warp is easy compared to staying alive and not lost once your in.

jim5195
28-05-2007, 01:55
Thats true, I've always wondered about the Shadow and the Webway - is there any fluff in which they both come into play?

When Iyanden was devastated by Hive Fleet Kraken the webway was explained away as being effected by the Shadow.

Thats the only mention I know of.

Bruen
28-05-2007, 08:20
When Iyanden was devastated by Hive Fleet Kraken the webway was explained away as being effected by the Shadow.

OK so the Eldar do have problems with it too.

Pain
28-05-2007, 09:31
I expect that they will avoid an Inquisition type behaviour. After all, I believe that the races absorbed into the Empire have maintained their own control over the planets and race itself? If so, the individual races themselves will probably control it all, with oversight from the Tau of course. 9/10 those psychic races will be able to control their powers or have some knowledge of the dangers, or I expect they would've been destroyed before their absorbtion.

But what about the Gue'la absorbed? The human races control mechanism is the Inquisition. Beeing surrounded by Tau is quite a good thing for a chaos cult. There would be noone who could read the warning signs of a developing chaos cult and wipe it out before its too late. A significant population of humans without proper "psyker-control"-mechanisms in place is a Disaster waiting to happen.

BarbedHawk
28-05-2007, 10:49
But what about the Gue'la absorbed? The human races control mechanism is the Inquisition. Beeing surrounded by Tau is quite a good thing for a chaos cult. There would be noone who could read the warning signs of a developing chaos cult and wipe it out before its too late. A significant population of humans without proper "psyker-control"-mechanisms in place is a Disaster waiting to happen.

That's a good point, but surely the whole mind washing 'Greater Good' mindset could control any sort of Cultist activity? Plus I would've thought the Tau would keep an eye on the Gue'la, if they've learnt anything from their experiences with the 'GR1M D4RKN3SS 0F T3H 40K M1LL3N1UM!!!' :p

Would you think they would be totally destroyed by Daemons? Or would they fall into a state similar to Humanity pre-Emperor times?

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 10:54
How would the Tau spouting on about the Greater Good dissuade people from worshipping Chaos?

BarbedHawk
28-05-2007, 10:58
How would the Tau spouting on about the Greater Good dissuade people from worshipping Chaos?

Well I thought they used a lot of mindwashing techniques etc., so I thought it'd take out knowledge of Chaos and control it. I'm probably wrong though. ;)

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 11:03
Imperial citizens, as a whole, have no idea of the existance of Chaos, because of the Imperiums efforts to block all knowledge. If they discover a group who knows of it, they kill them, if they discover somebody important who knows of it, they mind scrub them. Tau don't know how dangerous Chaos is, so why would they kill their own citizens? They are not as 'thorough' as the Imperium in these matters.

Cirenivel
28-05-2007, 11:07
That's a good point, but surely the whole mind washing 'Greater Good' mindset could control any sort of Cultist activity? Plus I would've thought the Tau would keep an eye on the Gue'la, if they've learnt anything from their experiences with the 'GR1M D4RKN3SS 0F T3H 40K M1LL3N1UM!!!' :p


There's only other tau that has is entirely devoted to the etherals in the sence that they will do 110% of everything they say.
If an etheral says to a tau "go shoot yourself", what do you think the tau would do? he would go and blow his brains out without even asking!
Now, if you try to do that with a Gue, then he would just look weird at him and say ":wtf:?"....

Also, the fact that cultist are able to hide in the imperium, where there's an inquisition, would seem to hint towards that the cultists could just stay relatively hidden until they become powerfull enough to rebell...




Would you think they would be totally destroyed by Daemons? Or would they fall into a state similar to Humanity pre-Emperor times?

Under wich cirumstances?
If anything, I think that they either stay united, or becomes entirely extinct

Cirenivel

bertcom1
28-05-2007, 11:20
Question:
Shadowsun vs the Tyranids. I seem to recall something that the fleet under her command defeated something quite significant. A whole Splinter Fleet or something without loss of ships.
Could someone clarify this?
I find it somewhat improbable that they did this with no loss, given the problems Eldar and Imperial forces have with Tyranid fleets, with ships that are still somewhat superior to Tau ships.


Also, for humans under Tau rule. Knowledge of Chaos is not necessary for there to be a problem. Without the Black Ships examining the population for psykers, then the psykers that do arise will not be removed from the planet, and they would almost certainly not receive any training in how to control their curse. This leaves them open to Warp entity possession, particularly for the more powerful ones, or general insanity, neither of which is a good thing.

Chilltouch
28-05-2007, 11:32
Shadowsun wouldn't have a fleet under my command. The fleet would be under the command of a member of the Air Caste, not some ignorant Fire Caste who are less suited to space combat.

ThorOdensson
28-05-2007, 11:57
And the notion that such a success if possible for the tau just seems completely wrong.

Behemoth arguably the weakest hive fleet took the combined forces of Ultramar, one of the most heavily fortified and defended parts of the Imperium; all they had to defeat and even then it was ultimately luck that won the day, whilst suffereing horrendous loses especially to the Ultramarines (the annihilation of the first company).

That any Tau fleet could destroy a substantial splinter fleet without any loses or even just few losses, is just mind-boggling

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 13:21
Just another case of power creep.

Chilltouch
28-05-2007, 13:32
According to my friend, there was a piece of Tau background that was about the Tau trying to dissuade a rogue Tyranid ship from hostile actions. The Tyranids didn't stop and the Tau fired a warning shot with a weapon battery, which caused the Tyranid ship to explode in a screaming ball of flame. Oo; This is just me trusting a friend here but who knows, maybe the Imperium used the wrong weapons against them?

Bruen
28-05-2007, 13:46
Shadowsun vs the Tyranids. I seem to recall something that the fleet under her command defeated something quite significant. A whole Splinter Fleet or something without loss of ships.
Could someone clarify this?

That was in the old Tau codex but it doesn't really say any more than that.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 13:49
Its also the current Tau Codex. Page 46, end of para 2.

"Against the Tyranids, she led several devastating raids that disrupted the alien command and control structure so thoroughly that the Tau armada was able to scatter and destroy an entire splinter fleet without the loss of a single vessel."

One to be ignored, if you ask me.

Sojourner
28-05-2007, 13:51
I often wonder whats going to happen when a load of psychic races join the Tau empire (including human renegades). Will the Tau be forced to create their own version of the inquisition or will they die in a warp spawned hell? Well, we can only hope.....

It seems to be mainly humans who have problems with psionic activity, Eldar excluded. Even they have a solution, if not an ideal one.

bertcom1
28-05-2007, 13:52
I see.

This victory over the Tyranid fleet, could it be a case of propaganda/naivety amongst the Tau? In that they think they have defeated something large, but haven't really?

Similar to that story when some Tau forces killed Slaanesh?

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 13:54
It doesn't actually say how large the splinter is... It could be only a few vessels for all we (and the Tau public) know.

Kegluneq
28-05-2007, 14:03
Its also the current Tau Codex. Page 46, end of para 2.

"Against the Tyranids, she led several devastating raids that disrupted the alien command and control structure so thoroughly that the Tau armada was able to scatter and destroy an entire splinter fleet without the loss of a single vessel."

One to be ignored, if you ask me.
In the second Uriel Ventris novel, the destruction of one of the central hive ships broke the overmind controlling the small part of the fleet involved with that conflict.

Presumably Shadowsun and the Air Caste were aware of the dependancy of the fleet on single central entities and were able to exploit that by focusing their attacks. Crisis suits specialising in boarding actions (as in Rogue Star) could probably make mincemeat of most opposition they found once boarding a hive vessel.

Of course, the 'splinter fleet' is probably an exaggeration, deliberate or otherwise. :D

Dreachon
28-05-2007, 15:04
Highly doubtfull that simply crisis suits can tackle whatever they find inside a hiveship, read warriors of ultramar, there were warrrior organism far larger and agressieve than a carnifex that protected the norn queen, plus the ship itself will defend against them.
Hell the Tau wouldn't even be able to locate where the queen is hiding.

Besides the tyranid have caused enourmess damage to the fleet to the extent that the Tau are replacing their entire fleet with newer ships, part of this is in IA volume 3 with the Tau bfg section.

But for them to destroy a splinterfleet I doubt it, perhaps some drones and a kraken or 2.

Tanith Ghost
28-05-2007, 17:23
And the notion that such a success if possible for the tau just seems completely wrong.

Behemoth arguably the weakest hive fleet took the combined forces of Ultramar, one of the most heavily fortified and defended parts of the Imperium; all they had to defeat and even then it was ultimately luck that won the day, whilst suffereing horrendous loses especially to the Ultramarines (the annihilation of the first company).

That any Tau fleet could destroy a substantial splinter fleet without any loses or even just few losses, is just mind-boggling

It's tau propaganda, that they could just handwavium a spilter fleet.


The Battle for Maccragge is one of the most triumphant
victories for the Ultramarines, as well as one of the most terrible ordeals ever
suffered. A hundred terminators paid with their lives for that victory.

Nobody fights bugs without getting hurt at all. Just like they supressed
what raw warp does to tau, my guess is the etheareals also supressed
what happens when a few tau venture into a hive ship and get in way over their heads.

Bruen
28-05-2007, 17:30
It's tau propaganda, that they could just handwavium a spilter fleet. ...The Battle for Maccragge is one of the most triumphant victories for the Ultramarines, as well as one of the most terrible ordeals ever suffered. A hundred terminators paid with their lives for that victory.

Of course the Battle for Maccragge could just be more handwavium propaganda (I like that btw:)). I think we are getting dangerously close to "I don't like that fluff so it must be wrong but I do like this fluff so it must be the truth" here.

Fluff is fluff, you can't just pick and choose the bits that you like.

Tanith Ghost
28-05-2007, 17:36
Even if one peice claims all stars are blue, but another says they are red. :p
*smacks head against a brick wall in disgust*

At least I can safely say once somebody decides to go for the tau cuthroat and to the death, the 40 galaxy can say goodbye to the techno herectic blue pansies.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 17:39
It's tau propaganda, that they could just handwavium a spilter fleet.

The Battle for Maccragge is one of the most triumphant
victories for the Ultramarines, as well as one of the most terrible ordeals ever
suffered. A hundred terminators paid with their lives for that victory.


In the scheme of things 100 soldiers of any sort is not a lot. The hundreds of thousands of PDF and Guardsmen had more effect on the outcome, I would imagine.

Bruen
28-05-2007, 17:40
At least I can safely say once somebody decides to go for the tau cuthroat and to the death, the 40 galaxy can say goodbye to the techno herectic blue pansies.

Agreed, the real issue is whether or not anyone cares to attack the Tau that hard. They just aren't that much of a threat or prize to anyone.

Tanith Ghost
28-05-2007, 17:56
On thatl ine of thought, much as I dislike the blue weasels, it might be interesting to have them get into a protracted war with the bugs.

Instead of the 'too soapy and clean look'(kind of what I think of eldar)
a tougher, grity look might be in order. Blood stains left over from melee combats, five o clock shadows on the bucket down models, personal close combat implements, and so on.

So the tau take on the bugs on several worlds, with more bugs arriving to keep their assault up at intervals and the tau having to send more and more troops to hold the line lest the bugs get loose in the heart of the Empire.

Plasuable idea maybe?

Bruen
28-05-2007, 18:41
So the tau take on the bugs on several worlds, with more bugs arriving to keep their assault up at intervals and the tau having to send more and more troops to hold the line lest the bugs get loose in the heart of the Empire.Plasuable idea maybe?

I don't know about the close-combat stuff but I would love GW to make mroe of the Tau/Tyranid fighting as well as the Tau/Ork fighting; sadly neither of them involve the Imperium so they don't seem to be interested.

The old Tau codex said that there had been some serious clashes between the Tau and both of those two races in the past; world conquered, lost, wars and star battles etc. Exciting stuff that GW never covers.

gLOBS
28-05-2007, 19:12
In the scheme of things 100 soldiers of any sort is not a lot. The hundreds of thousands of PDF and Guardsmen had more effect on the outcome, I would imagine.

Um 100 Veteran Space Marines incased in Terminator Armor fighting in cramped tunnel conditions of a Fortress Monestary which the suits where designed for fighting in. Sounds like a big loss to me.

Bruen
28-05-2007, 19:21
Um 100 Veteran Space Marines incased in Terminator Armor fighting in cramped tunnel conditions of a Fortress Monestary which the suits where designed for fighting in. Sounds like a big loss to me.

Particulary as Terminator suits are practically irreplacable, what with the current status of Imperial technology.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 19:24
Compared to taking down an entire hive fleet? Sounds like small sacrifice.

Bruen
28-05-2007, 19:56
Compared to taking down an entire hive fleet? Sounds like small sacrifice.

The problem is that there may be more hive fleets than the Imperium has Terminator suits and the Tyranid can always make more.

IMHO in the endgame there will only be Orks, Necrons and the Tyranid left fighting over the galaxy. Since the Tyranid is the only one with demonstrated intergalactic travel and the experience of totally consuming at least one other galaxy I don't fancy the chances of the other two.

Cirenivel
28-05-2007, 20:06
tyranids can't eat tin-cans.... so the necrons can't really be defeated by the tyranids...

Cirenivel

Bruen
28-05-2007, 20:08
tyranids can't eat tin-cans.... so the necrons can't really be defeated by the tyranids...

If they can eat a world down to bedrock then they can eat tin cans and every other kind of mineral and metal.

It will be one heck of a fight come the end of the galaxy.

Norminator
28-05-2007, 20:18
It will be one heck of a fight come the end of the galaxy.

Especially when an Ork Mek decides one day that a looted Carnifex is a good idea...

Bruen
28-05-2007, 20:25
Especially when an Ork Mek decides one day that a looted Carnifex is a good idea...

Muhahaha, if I could draw that would make an awesome concept sketch.

Cirenivel
28-05-2007, 20:28
If they can eat a world down to bedrock then they can eat tin cans and every other kind of mineral and metal.

However, living metal is a tad bit harder to digest than iron pills (especially since they would just phase out of the 'nids gut)

Cirenivel

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 20:32
If they reduce the Tomb Worlds down to bedrock, where are they going to phase out to, exactly?

madd0ct0r
28-05-2007, 20:33
Looted carnifex? it's been done.

http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=19403

Norminator
28-05-2007, 20:36
Muhahaha, if I could draw that would make an awesome concept sketch.

Thinking about it a bit more, it could actually work. Use something like the Squiggoth rules, with the required gun bolted to the side of its head and it held down by lots of grots with chains. Orks riding on them could be clinging to bits of chitin.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 20:39
Or just a fancy Killakan...

Cirenivel
28-05-2007, 20:40
If they reduce the Tomb Worlds down to bedrock, where are they going to phase out to, exactly?

well that's a good question... They would probably just continue to phase in and out, as the tyranids can't really destroy the entire planet, and as such, all the metal would just phase in and out until the tyranids get bored, or other necrons comes to their rescue.
This is assumed that they even manages to get into the tomb worlds witout being anhiliated (I know it has been done, but they used mainly stealth, and most tyranid fleets would make quite a bit of mess when arriving)

Cirenivel

Ktotwf
28-05-2007, 20:51
People seem to overestimate the Tyranids...To me it really makes sense that the Tau would hold their own against the Nids.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 20:58
well that's a good question... They would probably just continue to phase in and out, as the tyranids can't really destroy the entire planet, and as such, all the metal would just phase in and out until the tyranids get bored, or other necrons comes to their rescue.
This is assumed that they even manages to get into the tomb worlds witout being anhiliated (I know it has been done, but they used mainly stealth, and most tyranid fleets would make quite a bit of mess when arriving)

Cirenivel

If the Tomb World gets the 'Nid treatment what are the Necrons going to have to lock onto? They can't phase out if they have nowhere to go to.


People seem to overestimate the Tyranids...To me it really makes sense that the Tau would hold their own against the Nids.

Tyranids have taken on the best the Imperium has to offer, and won, time and time again. Tau have taken on a small crusade with no reinforcements and bad supply routes, and fought to a stalemate. What do you think is going to happen when a Hive Fleet of a million ships decides it wants blue food?

Dakkagor
28-05-2007, 21:22
I think I can imagine how I would defeat the tyranid threat with tau tech: the kauyon/patient hunter technique.

step one: bait nid ships into trap with deadfall torpedos and long range tau fire (and they have long range in space too)

Step two: have escorts slip into the rear of nid attack and attack main hive ship.

Step three: as the fleet control crumbles, bait sections into seperate killing fields while distracting others. Rinse and repeat to annihilate hive fleet.

Its also worth noting that Tau regard ground as strategically important only for making the kill. Once the kill is made, the ground is for the taking. The short ranged tyranid fleet would struggle to counter this, as the tau take pot shots, whittle the fleet down then break for it. The tyranid fleet heads back on course, and the tau repeat the process, even allowing the nid ships to make orbit so they can be pinned against the gravity well, where theres no escape from tau gunnery and torpedos. A cunning and clever tau commander (and shadowsun is both, along with being fanatical and driven) could annihalte a sizeable splinter fleet this way, and casulties would be minimal. (I imagine the occasional gutted/crippled cruiser or genestealer haunted frigate would be a small price to pay)

And lets remember the ultramarines lost more than the first company at macragge. Battlefleet bakka was wiped out to the last 20 ships from 200, the ultramarines own fleet was decimated, and the pdf armies and titan legions that fought at the poles where utterly destroyed. All companies took significant losses (the 3rd especially) and before all that, the ultramarines lost prandium, the jewel in ultramars crown. Behemoth was a hive fleet, not a splinter fleet, and the carnage it caused left the ultramarines struggling to replace losses for hundreds of years and battlefleet bakka slowly and painfully rebuilding.

Bruen
28-05-2007, 21:33
People seem to overestimate the Tyranids...To me it really makes sense that the Tau would hold their own against the Nids.

I'm with Slaaneshi Slave, the Tau are small beans as 40k races go and I'm a Tau player. I doubt they would survive even one complete hive fleet the size of the 3 that the Imperium has faced without having to to do an Eldar and flee. Its just a numbers game really - there are too many tyranid organisms out there.

I must admit I hark back to the old Tyranid codex where there are at least thousands of hive fleets coming to our galaxy and possibly even more. What was the quote? "There are certainly more Tyranids than there are beings in our galaxy and I fear that there may be more hive fleets than there are inhabited worlds."

Dakkagor
28-05-2007, 21:38
must admit I hark back to the old Tyranid codex where there are at least thousands of hive fleets coming to our galaxy and possibly even more. What was the quote? "There are certainly more Tyranids than there are beings in our galaxy and I fear that there may be more hive fleets than there are inhabited worlds."

I hate that statement almost more than I hate Anzion. Why? Because surely there would be massive overcrowding and starvation amongst the hivefleets, because the nids don't have anyway of sustaining themselves for even the most cursory amount of time in any single galaxy. Surely there would be rampant canibalism, and huge amounts of hive fleets starving even if they reach this galaxy? That sounds more like "over populated rabbits starving" rather than "super predator evolving to ultimate efficency"

Mr Zephy
28-05-2007, 21:40
Yeah, the Tau Empire's size and power is not it's main asset. It can't play with the big boys on that.

What is impressive is how it's formed a cohesive empire out of diverse races, and done so in a competitively short time. It's a small empire today, but a few thousand years ago it was using spears. That's progress.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 21:49
I hate that statement almost more than I hate Anzion. Why? Because surely there would be massive overcrowding and starvation amongst the hivefleets, because the nids don't have anyway of sustaining themselves for even the most cursory amount of time in any single galaxy. Surely there would be rampant canibalism, and huge amounts of hive fleets starving even if they reach this galaxy? That sounds more like "over populated rabbits starving" rather than "super predator evolving to ultimate efficency"

A Hive Fleet doesn't need all that much food, really. All the critters break down into the Nid Soup bowl. The ships enter warp and enter hibernation mode, slowly eating away at the Nid Soup. When they reach their destination they wake up, and start pumping out critters from whats left of the Nid Soup, find a uninhabited planet and restock.

Dakkagor
28-05-2007, 21:53
You may not know this, but most of the food you eat gets burnt up as energy: carbs and fats and such. The nids must eat for the same reasons, therefore the energy expended on getting somewhere must be reclaimed from sources in this galaxy. Imagine going on a 50 mile hike with only a lucazade to keep you going. By the end of the hike you will be ravenous, and if the cuboards been emptied, you may just end up trying to eat your roommate.

Ok, the analogy broke down, but the general point is right

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 21:57
But if I am in deep space, and stand on the edge of my space ship and jump off I will travel for all eternity (or until I hit something) using no more energy than that initial jump cost me.

Bruen
28-05-2007, 21:58
You may not know this, but most of the food you eat gets burnt up as energy: carbs and fats and such.

Only if you are doing things. If you are just coasting through the warp in deep hibernation then there isn't really a lot of need for energy and thats not even taking into account the possiblity that the Tyranid uses the variable time feature of warp travel to reduce the subjective transit time.

Dakkagor
28-05-2007, 21:59
I was under the impression that the nids didn't travel through the warp: that they simply moved through normal space very slowly, which is why they need the shadow in the warp: if you could catch them in hibernation in deep space, you'd toast them.

Slaaneshi Slave
28-05-2007, 22:03
They do use the Warp. But even in there, traveling between galaxies takes millions of years. Even in normal space you dont slow down in space unless you hit something.

Ktotwf
28-05-2007, 22:42
Tyranids have taken on the best the Imperium has to offer, and won, time and time again.

You mean won in the sense of having three successive Hive Fleets destroyed? One Hive Fleet wasn't even strong enough to overwhelm a single Space Marine Chapter.

I simply don't see how the conflicts between the Imperium and 'Nids can be characterized as the Tyranids winning "time and time again."

This argument seems somewhat irrelevant anyway: The Tau Codex says that the Tau held their own against the Tyranids they encountered, so, the real answer seems to be that the Tau CAN win.

Like I said: Tyranid fanboys overrate the 'Nids.

plasticfrog
28-05-2007, 23:15
Say if the Nids anage to eat an Ethereak- and repoduce the 'pacifist' gene- wouldn't the tau be stuffed?

El_Machinae
29-05-2007, 00:07
Maybe if the 'nids knew what to do with that gene...

Slaaneshi Slave
29-05-2007, 05:15
You mean won in the sense of having three successive Hive Fleets destroyed? One Hive Fleet wasn't even strong enough to overwhelm a single Space Marine Chapter.

I simply don't see how the conflicts between the Imperium and 'Nids can be characterized as the Tyranids winning "time and time again."

The vast tracts of space which are now lifeless. The millions of Guardsmen who are now dead.

Outlaw289
29-05-2007, 05:39
The vast tracts of space which are now lifeless. The millions of Guardsmen who are now dead.

Millions of dead Nids.

Fair trade really :p

Slaaneshi Slave
29-05-2007, 05:59
The 'Nids recoup their losses though by eating the dead. After consuming a world all the critters get broken back down into the 'Nid Soup anyway, so it doesn't matter how many die to gain that planet.

Outlaw289
29-05-2007, 06:02
The 'Nids recoup their losses though by eating the dead. After consuming a world all the critters get broken back down into the 'Nid Soup anyway, so it doesn't matter how many die to gain that planet.

Imperial High Lord to another High Lord: Are you sure we don't have any leftover Iron Men?

Ktotwf
29-05-2007, 06:04
The vast tracts of space which are now lifeless. The millions of Guardsmen who are now dead.

Vast tracts of space? Millions of Guardsmen? Tiny, tiny resource costs for a realm as vast as the Imperium. We have no idea how many Hive Fleets the Tyranids have, but we do know that they now have three less.

But thats hardly the point. You said they "won." Instead, what they seem to have done is fought costly losing battles against the Imperium.

Ktotwf
29-05-2007, 06:05
The 'Nids recoup their losses though by eating the dead. After consuming a world all the critters get broken back down into the 'Nid Soup anyway, so it doesn't matter how many die to gain that planet.

However, this is not the case when entire Hive Fleets are annihalated, as happened with Behemoth, Kraken, and Leviathan.

Once again, silly 'nid fanboys to the rescue.

Slaaneshi Slave
29-05-2007, 06:08
Silly 'nid fanboys? You are the one advocating the Tau defeating an enemy which has annhilated galaxies. Look back to the previous page - "move Hive Fleets than there are populated planets".

Cirenivel
29-05-2007, 06:14
- "move Hive Fleets than there are populated planets".

Remember that that's not proven facts. It's just what a guy that has fough tyranids think is out there

Cirenivel

Ktotwf
29-05-2007, 06:17
1. It is listed in an old Tyranid Codex, stated by a Third Party who wouldn't necessarily be correct. Common sense says that if the Tyranids really had millions and millions of Hive Fleets, then they would have no need for "Scout forces."

Instead, what these Tyranid scout forces have done is alerted the Imperium to the Tyranid thread and prepared them for large scale mobilization to meet the threat.

2. I do not think that the Tau could win in an all out war against the Tyranids, however, in their conflicts so far, the Tau have fared well. This means that the Tau are not helpless, and as long as the full weight of the Tyranids doesn't fall on them, they will be alright.

And this is really important - the Tyranids want to devour EVERYTHING, and so they would have to be able to defeat every race, not just the Imperium (despite what the Black Library seems to believe)

Bruen
29-05-2007, 07:34
Say if the Nids anage to eat an Ethereak- and repoduce the 'pacifist' gene- wouldn't the tau be stuffed?

Only if the ability is genetic and Tyranid gets it right.

El_Machinae
29-05-2007, 11:48
The 'Nids recoup their losses though by eating the dead. After consuming a world all the critters get broken back down into the 'Nid Soup anyway, so it doesn't matter how many die to gain that planet.

It might matter a little. Some of the 'nid intelligence is stored (diffusely) in the synapses. A particularily experienced or intelligent Lictor (or whatever) can be replaced biologically from the soup of a dead lictor. But the memories and experience cannot be. Though, on an organism the size of the 'nids, maybe it doesn't matter.

I've said before, I think that the reason why the 'nids focus so much on combat that's done on a 'human sized' scale is because they enjoy the practice. Each planet they consume gives up various resources: new genetic samples, biomass!, and experience fighting.

El_Machinae
29-05-2007, 12:04
I think I can imagine how I would defeat the tyranid threat with tau tech: the kauyon/patient hunter technique.

step one: bait nid ships into trap with deadfall torpedos and long range tau fire (and they have long range in space too)

The Tau have a huge advantage that the Imperium doesn't have. The Tau are not dependant upon the Warp as a form of communication and travel, and so they don't lose their communication/logistic lines when the 'nids are near. This means that they can reinforce a system that's already engage the 'nids instead of having to pump resources in before the 'nids arrive and then having to wait for news (if the Static in the Warp) stops. That's a huge strategic advantage.

I hate that statement almost more than I hate Anzion. Why? Because surely there would be massive overcrowding and starvation amongst the hivefleets, because the nids don't have anyway of sustaining themselves for even the most cursory amount of time in any single galaxy. Surely there would be rampant canibalism, and huge amounts of hive fleets starving even if they reach this galaxy? That sounds more like "over populated rabbits starving" rather than "super predator evolving to ultimate efficency"

Remember that they have access to photosynthesis as a tool. A starving fleet could show up outside of an empty star and turn some of their low-energy waste (CO2, N2, H2O, etc.) into high-energy fuel. It wouldn't take very long either. They don't need to eat new planets to sustain themselves, they just need to set up photosynthetic ecologies around stars.

They need biomass to grow, but not to stay alive.

BarbedHawk
29-05-2007, 12:05
And this is really important - the Tyranids want to devour EVERYTHING, and so they would have to be able to defeat every race, not just the Imperium (despite what the Black Library seems to believe)


Perhaps they're just trying to break down the largest races first, Humans and Orks.

Bruen
29-05-2007, 14:06
Perhaps they're just trying to break down the largest races first, Humans and Orks.

It seems to me that the Tyranid really doesn't differientiate between prey races - it just attacks everyone that it encounters. That means that its either really dumb or too powerful to need to care about the tactical niceties.

Ktotwf
29-05-2007, 18:10
Mark my words: The Necrons and Tyranids will be the galaxies saving grace- the Undead Slaves and the Great Devourer are going to wipe each other out.

Cirenivel
29-05-2007, 18:11
Mark my words: The Necrons and Tyranids will be the galaxies saving grace- the Undead Slaves and the Great Devourer are going to wipe each other out.

We're allowed to hope

Cirenivel

Ktotwf
29-05-2007, 18:53
We're allowed to hope

Cirenivel

Its really inevitable. The Tyranids are in the way of the Necrons doing what they need to do. IIRC, the mission of the Necrons is to wipe out life in the Galaxy, and the Tyranids are the biggest concentration of organic life one can imagine.

Mechanicus
29-05-2007, 18:59
IIRC, the mission of the Necrons is to wipe out life in the Galaxy, and the Tyranids are the biggest concentration of organic life one can imagine. Not quite - the mission of the Necrons (Well, the C'tan) is to pretty much just enslave every living thing (after sating their early morning hunger in a more immediate way) and draw electromagnetic energy out of them to feed themselves. To make an analogy, they are the cattle-farmers. The Tyranids just want to eat everything, then when life grows again, return to eat again, and so on. So they are the pack of wolves that come every few years. The Necrons hate the living, but the C'tan want the living to gain energy from.

Slaaneshi Slave
29-05-2007, 19:05
The mission of the Necrons is th herd all life in the galaxy, not wipe it out.

Bruen
29-05-2007, 19:59
Mark my words: The Necrons and Tyranids will be the galaxies saving grace- the Undead Slaves and the Great Devourer are going to wipe each other out.

Of course I doubt there will be anyone else left by then.