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northoceanbeach
29-05-2007, 23:02
I was talking over with my brother the idea of Dark Angels playing his nidzilla list and I told him I don't think I could beat 1000 thousand points of tyranids with 2000 points of DA. He slightly disagrees as he thought that I couldn't do it with 1500 but maybe with 2000. So I challenged him to a game. I'm going to make the best list I can and he's going to have 20 gaunts and 7 monstrous creatures with 4 wounds, toughness 6 a piece. I just don't think it's likely. Even with my 2000 points. We did a quick practice with 2 carnifexes against my 10 man las plas tactical squad and multi melta attack bike. These work out to be the same points cost. I did roll badly but failed to score even one wound where he killed me in two turns.

We'll see how it goes but it seems a bit sad that I'm even thinking that 2000 DA vs. 1000 nids I might lose. What do you think who do you bet on?

athamas
29-05-2007, 23:13
erm... its possible, but you have to play it right...

DA have alot of access to plasma weaponry, ther wounds on a 3+ with no save...

thus, take lots of plasma guns...

post a list in the army list forum and have it looked over, also make sure his lost is checked for bugs...

Lord Malek The Red Knight
29-05-2007, 23:18
We did a quick practice with 2 carnifexes against my 10 man las plas tactical squad and multi melta attack bike. These work out to be the same points cost. I did roll badly but failed to score even one wound where he killed me in two turns.
how far apart was each side? i cant see how 2 Carni's can kill that many Marines in 2 turns. :confused:


We'll see how it goes but it seems a bit sad that I'm even thinking that 2000 DA vs. 1000 nids I might lose. What do you think who do you bet on?
why not just play 1000 pts each?

~ Tim

NotElite
29-05-2007, 23:23
If you play with the older metal terminators and dreadnaughts I've got a great strategy. Put them all in a pillowcase and beat him over the head with them. You have to be fast though, since if he has a lot of metal carnifexes, payback will be a bitch.

Seriously though, I can't imagine this being a good matchup unless you build well for it. Powerfisted sergeants and assault cannons are the usual solutions to gunfexes. Too bad the best of both come in the fast-attack slot.

Maybe devestators en-masse.

northoceanbeach
29-05-2007, 23:33
The smal skirmish we started 24 apart. He went first. He moved forward 6" and shot me and I took alot of saves, I failed four. That put me at 6 marines. I shot back and my plasma overheated and my lascannon missed. Bolters need 6 to wound and I didn't get any. He moved forward again and I took fourteen saves and failed 6 then next turn he killed my attack bike. So I guess technically it took 3 turns. Why it doesn't seem possible to beat nidzilla is the fact that for 230 points I get 10 marines plasma, lascannon power fist. FOr 118 a piece he gets a dakkafex, so two dakkafexes, 8 shots apiece that reroll wounds and hits and are shooting at S6 are the same price as my 10 men.

So say for 1000 points I took like a commander, 2 10 manlas/plas/fists, 5 terms, one assault cannon, and 2 redators, he could have 7 montsrous creatures and 20 gaunts.

It doesn't seem even possible. If they are shooting that many reroll S6 shots at you you will fail enough saves. And when his flying hive tyrant shoots 12 S6 shots and then asssaults my teminators they won't even attack back.

athamas
29-05-2007, 23:56
try it again with you starting 30+ inches appart... see what happens then....

Baneboss
30-05-2007, 00:23
Just play a fluffy game without any pimped out tyranids.

Brother Gabriel
30-05-2007, 00:55
I would love to see some good strategy here...
I got my ass handed by nids all the time as well with DA.

Next time i try lots of bikes with plasma, trikes with mm and speeders with mm/assault cannon.
And if that doesnt work i try out tons of devastators :D...

Master Bait
30-05-2007, 01:16
in that mini game why did you take a tactical squad? if he's going to take specialised carnifexes, take units to fight them accordingly. different units fulfill different roles after all

Skyth
30-05-2007, 01:17
Just play a fluffy game without any pimped out tyranids.

Funny thing is that a Godzilla list IS fluffy...

Skyth
30-05-2007, 01:18
how far apart was each side? i cant see how 2 Carni's can kill that many Marines in 2 turns. :confused:


Each turn they have 16 shots hitting on 4 with rerolls, and wounding on 2 with rerolls.

Averages 8 dead marines over 2 turns.

cailus
30-05-2007, 02:08
But the small scale matchup was a bit skewed with two heavy supports slugging it out with one troop and one fast attack.

Of course this won't work.

At 1,000 points it will be totally different as the armies follow the minimum Troops/HQ requirements. Load up on powerfists (and who doesn't) and lascannons/plasma and you should have a fighting chance.

max the dog
30-05-2007, 02:41
After my nids fought about 20 battles vrs dark angels and never having lost a single game I might be able to offer some advice.
For taking out the horde I suggest taking heavy bolters and flamers. Generaly speaking the nids have terrible saves and vrs these weapons most nids have none. Take 5 man tac squads with these weapons and have them wait for the nids. Wear them down as they charge in and then give them a final roast with the flamer. Hit the genestealers first and then the gaunts.
For the zilla's; use as many powerfists as you can in an assault sqaud. A dakkafex only has an 18" range, if he can shoot you then you can assault him. Put a jump pack on a chaplain and stick him with an assault squad and hit the zilla's one at a time. Assaulting a carni may sound like a foolish move but if he's set up for shooting then his close combat ability is lacking, he can't do both.
Use dev squads with missle launchers. It's a cheap and versatile weapon that can take on the horde with blast templates or precise st8 ap3 killing power. You can't go wrong with 2 squads with 4 missle launchers each.
When setting up terrain place nothing in the middle. It ruins your field of fire and gives them a cover save. Keep all of your models in cover if genestealers are nearby. The only chance you have of negating their initiative of 6 is to stick in cover.
Fear the flying tyrant equiped for close combat.

xibo
30-05-2007, 02:59
Against an able tyranid player flamers are (next to) useless. His gaunts will have 12" attack range, his stealers will either follow or be deployed in such a way your flamer guy doesn't come into LoS with them with his 6" move, and the zillas don't care about flamers other than the inferno cannon anyway, unless they are divine guided, of cause.
I suggest you load up on plasguns, its the only special weapon for marines worth taking, and for DAs its even fluffy.
Also, take rhinos. They're incredibly cheap for DAs ( cheaper than waaghtrakks o_O ) and are difficult terrain to those gaunts ( or even inpassable should they be ignored ).
I suggest not taling any terminators, but (venerable) dreadnaughts instead. Dreads are immune to smaller shooting weapons unlike terminators, so he will have to redirect some carnifex fire into them in order to shoot them, and dreads get about the same amount of firepower termies get at an equal points setting...

Feran
30-05-2007, 03:04
Well I can't think of anything else to say. It seems everyone has done a good job explaning my views.

To avoid plasma over heat. Pray to the dice gods. :evilgrin:

strambo
30-05-2007, 03:06
how far apart was each side? i cant see how 2 Carni's can kill that many Marines in 2 turns. :confused:


why not just play 1000 pts each?

~ Tim

yeah i agree just make it equal points, maybe you should look at your tactics insted of just your list.

northoceanbeach
30-05-2007, 04:59
Well I was looking at the fact that it is in reality nigh impossible to beat with DA. The weapons that are effective against them are few and far between and very expensive. Heavybolters are good against the little guys but in nidzilla not high enough strength and not low enough ap. The simple fact is that one dakkafex costs a mere 118 points and you can take 6 of them. I think two equally skilled players one playing 2000 points DA and the other 1000 points nidzilla should be an even game.

tactical squads- do not have the hitting power to make up their points
ravenwing- way too expensive. a 40 points bike with a bolter is not taking down big bugs. attack bike with mm only has that one shot.
assault squads- about 300 points for one with 2 plasma pistols and a fist. make they could take down one biggy but not 300 points worth. Add a chaplain and youre up around 450. Not good for after the maybe one charge.
librarian- force weapon can actually instant kill these guys! But you probably won't strike first and anyways you have to roll 4 to hit and 6 to wound, then take a leadership test. Goodbye 180 point guy. Not happening.
terminators-no thank you, only will hurt them in close combat and they ignore your armour, and you don't want terms in any combat that ignores that much armour.
tornados-8 strength 6 shots against a now 100 point vehicle. nope.
devastators with 4 missiles. the best we've got I think, but not worth the high cost. THese nidzilla are so much cheaper and better than my dev's
predator- maybe, cheap enough, but what hurts is that it doesn't ignore armour. best bet though.
master on speeder. I would be so afraid of a S10 zoanthrope hitting him but I would take him, at least I get another cannon.
All characters-useless
scouts with a fist- maybe, but they would die really quickly.

Master Bait
30-05-2007, 05:38
All characters-useless.


what's azrael, chopped liver?

besides that you're focussing mainly on the CC responses to these guys, where's your firepower? wheres the plasma guns and the lascannons?

i dunno, i've NEVER saw it as viable to try and bring marines into combat with tyranids, not now and certainly not in 2nd ed. now if you're going to have a bunch of zillas to worry about, and that's what's taking up most of the opponent's force, then you should be able to use the TACTICS that are available to your army. carnifex's have one major disadvantage over SMs - they're hella slow. you should be playing on a board where you only have to encounter one carnifex at a time if you deploy and move your guys around right. and that way your 'measly and over-priced' allocation of special and heavy weapons should become effective. and if terrain isn't helping, then block the fex's with rhinos. they'll spend a turn trying to navigate/waste a round of shooting trying to get rid of the damned thing

all you're doing is directly measuring the two armies on a stat-for-stat basis.

of course you're going to lose, you're not being imaginative enough

ss_cherubael
30-05-2007, 06:19
If you have a decent grasp of tactics you should be able to take down equal pts of any army, anyone who believes otherwise lacks any sense of strategy and tactics.

If you want advice on a list that is to be tailored to kill a carnifex heavy army well:
take plasma as everyone has already said, they need 3's to wound and the fex isnt getting a save. If you want 10 man squads take a lascannon as well, but i would suggest taking 5man squads with plasma weapons and maybe a power fist as you can move and shoot and can fit behind cover better. Up to you, also the smaller squad means you can take more plasma guns as you have the points to spare.

The assault cannon, this thing is rather useful for hunting down big bugs due to that lovely little rule we like to call rending, take it on a dead for the most survivable option or a speeder if you want the speed, termis i wouldnt suggest unless you use them as a fire base and then throw them into assault when possible but thats a lot of points that wont be getting armour saves as you said.

Scouts, sounds insane but hear me out, the biggest porblem with the carni. is the fact that it is T6 bolters have a hell of a time so you have a problem. Answer: sniper rifles, hit on twos and wound on fours, you will hit and wound him enough to kill it in one or two rounds of combat and you have far superior range to a daka fex when utilising the sniper rifle.

Devistators, take a unit with four missile launchers. These guys will make a mess of a fex pretty easily as long as they hit it, which being marines isnt that hard.

Predator, take a good old destructor if you are stuck on points, has good armour and give it heavy bolter sponsons and you have something that is capable of taking out a fex in a turn of shooting, or spend big and take an annihilator for the las cannons to punch holes in the big beasty.

and now for my favorite option for any imperial army fighting against a big bug army: an evessor assassin. 90 points (iirc) and this thing will rip them apart before they get a chance to swing back. Ive demolished a whole nidzilla list with one, the speed and neuro gauntlet it has plus a decent roll on the combat drug dice will see this guy speeding across the table and ripping carnifex's open with the greatest of ease and at 90 points hes a steal. Take one (and an Inquisitor if you dont have codex assassins, maybe give the inquisitor some multi-melta servitors or heavy boler ones to deal with other threats or take him with nothing for 20points and hide him at the back somewhere) and see how he goes, i promise he willl make his points back with little problem.

Other than that, pray to the dice gods as someone else suggested and dont call em missiles, its "Rocket" launcher, and hit anyone who says anything but a 1 when firing plasma. Looking to hear how it goes, the Emperor protects

shabbadoo
30-05-2007, 06:31
You could field a couple of tac squads with las-plas. One anti-gaunt squad armed with bolters and a HB would be good. It wouldn't be bad to have a terminator squad with an AC for a bit of ranged capability, a single TH & SS, and some LC's, but if you want something real gross then go for Azrael (and maybe a chaplain) and a command squad with a couple powerfists and the chapter banner for a disgusting amount of S6 and S8 no armor save, bug swatting fury!!! :evilgrin: That squad will drop Hive Tyrants, Tyrant Guard, and Carnifexes like nothing. Be sure to screen the squad with something cheap so that they can get the charge. The HB tac squad designated to shoot the gaunts would make a good screen and can take advantage of the apothecary to save any non monstrous creature wounds they take.

I also recommend playing a larger game, as more points actually favors the new DA list structure.

AngryAngel
30-05-2007, 06:36
What I find more then a little funny in some of this advice is people saying "if you know tactics you should be able to..". This list he's facing is a strong list type, not one on the weaker end of the scale. It's going to be a rough go of it tactics or no. The only relieable way DA is going to take it down is going to be if ya tool up for it.

Which I'm not a big fan of, making tailored lists just to destroy certain ones. However a round about balanced list is going to have more then its fair share of trouble with nidzilla, tactics or not.

Tactics should be, shoot the living hell out of them. In this situation you'll have to live like a tau. Stay out of CC if ya can help it and blast away. the dakka fex, is a problem child though in that case. Just try and remember his range can be an issue. Don't be afraid to fall back lure them out in the open.

If ya have to hit it, hit it hard in CC with a few squads at once and more then one pf lowering some justice down on it.They aren't that fast so you should be able to pick and choose when you engage them. Focus on one at a time then move on. Focused fire will be your friend.

I believe you can beat it, but it won't be easy. Stay the course, make your plans and stick to them.

Heinrich Jäger
30-05-2007, 09:22
The Last game I played I slaughtered the enemy. kinda wierd teams though, DA+SM vs. DA+Nids. I was the trait marine player, I find that a healthy number of las in a dev squad can pretty much garrentee a few burnt fex's. Rockets are no good they take extended cara, and now they have 2+ save. Plasma is also very useful.

eldaran
30-05-2007, 09:35
Just as a small point-He can't use his army. Shock troops says you can only have Carnifexes as elites in 1,500 points and above.

Aside from that, there is plenty you can do.

Stage one: load up on enough plasma to make him cry. go for at least two tactical squads with plasma gun/lascannon, as well as a power fist.

Stage 2: Stay the Hell away from the fex. Apart from shooting, don't move forward.

Stage 3: pack a devvie squad with missile launchers. At the least, they can take out a bucket of gaunts.

Curufew
30-05-2007, 09:45
I don't recall any fluff stating that Godzilla nids are fluffy. Most of the time it's alot of those little critters running around getting kill and killing stuff and suddenly around a corner comes the big fat evil monster.

On Topic:
Gunfexes are pretty horrible in CC. Assault any gunfexes that don't have reinforcements nearby. You can hold them up for some turns before all your marines die or if you got a powerfist, it dies

W0lf
30-05-2007, 09:52
HQ
Belial
130 pts

Troops
Deathwing
Assault Cannon, 4 Thunder Hammmers, Apothacary
275 pts

Deathwing
Assault Cannon, 4 Thunder Hammmers
245 pts

Heavy Support
Dev squad
4 missile Launchers
170 pts

Dev squad
4 missile Launchers
170 pts.

990 pts

That should easily take down 4 TMCs and some gaunts and took me 4 seconds to think up.

A better list would be:

HQ
Librarian
Combi-melta
120 pts

Troops
10 marines las/plas
250 pts

10 marines las/plas, powerfist
250 pts

Heavy Support
Land raider
250 pts

Dev squad
4 missile Launchers
170 pts

1000 pts.

Bran Dawri
30-05-2007, 09:56
I can theoretically see a Ravenwing army with lots of assault cannons or a combined ravenwing/deathwing army with the same take down a Nidzilla list by zipping around terrain so you're only engaging one or two 'Zillas at a time with practically your whole force, but I admit regular dark angels have it tough.

Perhaps just go for several 5-man squads with plasmaguns in razorbacks w/ lascannons and ignore the extra 5 guys you need for a heavy weapon?

Race into rapidfiring range with several squads and take out one 'Zilla at a time. Rinse, repeat.

All of the above is based on the assumption of a decent amount of terrain (40+% of the table).

Skyth
30-05-2007, 10:22
I don't recall any fluff stating that Godzilla nids are fluffy. Most of the time it's alot of those little critters running around getting kill and killing stuff and suddenly around a corner comes the big fat evil monster.

Considering a Godzilla list is mentioned twice in the new codex, I'd consider that fluffy.

Terminators are almost your best weapon against a godzilla list. They are fearless so the choir is useless. They have an assault cannon, which is very useful. They also have a 2+ save. Godzillas are mostly shooty and have nothing to penetrate a 2+ save. Plus the plethora of power fists which is what a zilla list REALLY fears.

Lord Balian
30-05-2007, 20:09
Why would you think DA can't take Nidzilla? How are DA really different then space marines in this regards? Even at same points on both sides, if you know you fighting it you can make a list for it and have a good chance.

How about lots of bikes with meltaguns, multimeltas and powerfists to wound on 2s and ignore armor saves? Toss in some speeders with MM and or AC. You can out manuever the big bugs and shoot at them.

For an infantry army use combat squads to your advantage. Get a few 10 man marine squads with a plasmacannon or lascannon, powerfist and meltagun, and a razorback. You split the squad up so the heavy weapon hangs back and fires at the big bugs, while the powerfist and meltagun move up in the razorback. You could make it nastier and upgrade the razorbacks to lascannons. Then jump out of the razorback, shoot the melta, assault with the powerfists.
Get some bikes to keep the gaunts occupied. The bikes can catch them, rapid fire, use flamers and assault. Those little guys won't be wounding those bikes with their low S. Or a couple whirlwinds to lay waiste to the little bugs.

Some predator destructors with storm bolters to lay down 10 shots a turn as the big bugs.

If you have more points them him, you should not loose.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
30-05-2007, 20:22
Take 10 man veteran with 3 fists or tunderhammer and stick with them Azrael and go combat with land rider ... dont forget mr.flaying land rider with tornado

tyranids are not good at boosting tanks without genestealers(take Predator spam - 3 destructors with pmsb to deal with them)

random thought but may work :) hey if you have 2000 points it will be quite easy :)

ShamedOne
30-05-2007, 21:12
This is a pretty lame post. "One carni costs 150 points so I took 10 marines and it beat me..." lame.

As has been said many times, the points values are scaled to games exceeding 1500 points (usually 1700-1850), so small battles won't do you justice.

If you MUST fight him at such levels, take a skimmer with an assault cannon (or two) and watch the nids romp around helplessly while getting creamed (they only move 6" per turn and only shoot 18", so you should be able to out pace and out range them).

Otherwise, take jump pack troops. Even with bolters, these guys will eventually wear the Fex down... with a chaplain and powerfist, things will go even quicker.

Shamed-1

azimaith
30-05-2007, 21:16
I was talking over with my brother the idea of Dark Angels playing his nidzilla list and I told him I don't think I could beat 1000 thousand points of tyranids with 2000 points of DA. He slightly disagrees as he thought that I couldn't do it with 1500 but maybe with 2000. So I challenged him to a game. I'm going to make the best list I can and he's going to have 20 gaunts and 7 monstrous creatures with 4 wounds, toughness 6 a piece. I just don't think it's likely. Even with my 2000 points. We did a quick practice with 2 carnifexes against my 10 man las plas tactical squad and multi melta attack bike. These work out to be the same points cost. I did roll badly but failed to score even one wound where he killed me in two turns.

We'll see how it goes but it seems a bit sad that I'm even thinking that 2000 DA vs. 1000 nids I might lose. What do you think who do you bet on?

With a thousand points of nids you can only have 5 monstrous creatures at maximum.

Ronin_eX
30-05-2007, 22:11
Warhammer should really never be played below 1000 points. Not only is the game balanced at 1500 points and above but below 1000 the game's system becomes far more dependant on luck (one bout of bad luck eliminates most of your army where as at 1000 points or more some bad luck can be absorbed by numbers). Not to mention the tactics the game uses center around the combat of large groups of models. 40k is not a skirmish game and as such any attempt to play it like that will end up in an unbalanced game.

To defeat a 'zilla list I would say take a 10-man devastator squad armed with missile launcers (or half ML and half HB) split into combat squads along with some 10-man tactical squads (around 3) armed with a missile launcher, meltagun and a powerfist on the sergeant. Mount melta-fist demi-squad in a razorback or rhino and run them forward to pour fire into the MCs while the razorbacks and other anti-infantry units (may I suggest AC/HB or HF/HB speeders) takes out his token troop units. The 15 marines going forward should stick together to take out targets. Get two groups stuck into combat with one MC and take it out while the third squad covers them or acts as a counter-charge unit if things get to heavy in combat. While he is being picked apart in CC by the first line the heavy firepower is tearing him apart from the back lines. Fill out extra forces with Deathwing, Ravenwing, more tanks, some more landspeeders or a vet squad loaded to the max with powerfists (three powerfists is nothing to sneeze at) led by a chaplain. Nids can shoot well enough but the DA have both quantity and quality when it comes down to firepower. Remember, the key is to be mobile but pack a mean punch while you do it.

rintinglen
30-05-2007, 22:12
Assault marines my butt!! If you are close enough to shoot them, they are close enough to charge you. Assault marines jump out, shoot, and then die when they are charged by monstrous creatures who crush them. One power fist don't rock the world. (hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, thats 1 1/2 wounds a turn. Good luck on living long enough to do anything.)
The only way that I have found to deal with a zilla list is to use lots of Speeders, scouts and tanks. It doesn't work all the time, but it gives you a fighting chance. I have had very (like in ridiculously great) good luck with snipers, but they can't be depended on. You move your tornadoes into range, pump 12 strength 6 shots and 9 strength 5 shots and hope for the best.

Grand Master Raziel
31-05-2007, 15:33
Well, I'm going to fly in the face of most of the advice you've gotten so far, at least as far as army content is concerned. Lots of people are advocating the missile launcher for it's versatility. Ordinarily, I'd agree with them, but if your main tactical problem is Tyranid Mostrous Creatures, then you pretty much have to use lascannons, as krak missiles bounce off TMCs with Extended Carapaces. I'd put my faith in a couple of Devestator Squads with 4 lascannons each for dealing with the TMCs at long range. Be sure to pick off the fast ones first (aka the Flyrant).

Now, the Nidzilla list probably relies on a few broods of small, fast bugs to tie up your firing line long enough for the big stompers to wade in, so you want to be prepared to deal with that as well. You're looking at either Hormagaunts or Ripper Swarms. For Hormagaunts, you'll want to include a Dev squad with 4 heavy bolters, and some speeders with heavy flamers. The speeders are fast enough to put the flamer close enough to the brood to kill a large number of them - remember the template hits everything it touches - and it kills Hormagaunts on a 2+, allowing them no save whatsoever, not even cover saves. For Ripper Swarms, include 2-3 Tactical Squads with with plasma cannons and plasma guns. Ripper Swarms have the Vulnerable to Blasts rule, so every wound from a blast (or flamer template) weapon counts as 2 wounds. They're also T3, so plasma insta-kills a base. That means that plasma cannons can rip apart Ripper Swarms, as each wound you cause effectively kills 2 whole bases. Also, once the Ripper threat is dispatched, you can turn the plasma on the TMCs to help out your Dev squads.

Make sure all your squads are 10-man strong, and that each one has a sergeant with a power fist. Do not split them up into Combat Squads. If you do have to fight off any TMCs in close combat, you need as many ablative wounds around those power fists as you can get.

If you have to stymy Zoanthropes, I suppose you're going to have to take Ezekial. He's expensive, but he's the only Ld10 character with a psychic hood you have access to.

Here's one more trick: take a Rhino for each squad you deploy. You're probably not actually going to move any of the squads in question with them. Instead, you're using them as mobile terrain under your control. You run them out in front of the of the shootier Fexes while you fry the assaulty ones. They won't be able to shoot through your wall of Rhinos, and even if they shoot and kill the Rhinos, the wrecks will still block their shooting. Don't upgrade the Rhinos any, just take them for their 35pt base cost and use them to screen anything you're not actively shooting at that turn.

So, for your anti-Nidzilla list, you're looking at the following:

HQ
Ezekial

Troops
2-3 10-man Tac squads with plasma cannon, plasma gun, power fist, Rhino

Heavy Support
2 10-man Dev squads with 4 lascannons, power fist, Rhino
1 10-man Dev squad with 4 heavy bolters, power fist, Rhino

Fast Attack
3 Land Speeders with heavy flamers

You shouldn't have any trouble fielding this for 2000 points. You might even have some points left over afterward.

Okidus
31-05-2007, 16:03
its def possible. I play and beat 750 nids regularly

I use Rbacks and Landspeeders.

let them come into range and flamer template the little guys.

las and AC for the big bugs.

if i wanted totally annihilate him Id add a Whirlwind or two

Captain Micha
31-05-2007, 16:56
I'm with Raziel on the idea. that's a pretty effective anti nid godzilla force.

Mojaco
31-05-2007, 17:09
A dakkafex only has an 18" range, if he can shoot you then you can assault him.
True, but if he kills models you have to remove them from within range. So he can shot you out of charge range if you go mess around the edge of his firing range.


When setting up terrain place nothing in the middle. It ruins your field of fire and gives them a cover save.
How is that helpful? :) "tool the table to your advantage". Not really fair; the table should provibe plenty of cover oppertunities.

Whatever you do, take an tornado speeder. Zoom around and stay clear from their firing range, while pumping rending ammo in the nids. Do this from his table edge, so the only way for him to get in range would be moving straight towards the tornado, and away from the rest of your army.

A predator annihilar, even with the pricehike, is well worth it against this opponent. Park him against your own table edge, so he has to walk nice and far.

Split up your army in two pieces. One on the left, one on the right. If he gets one, the other isn't automatically also lost.

Ignore the close combat fexes. The shooty ones are far more dangerous early in the game. However, don't overdo it. If a CC fex is nearing you lines and only has a 3+ save, 4 wounds, etc, while a shooty fex is running around with supa-dupa stats, then go for the CC fex. More certain, easy kills are better then just wounding something.

Good luck

Skyth
31-05-2007, 17:33
Assault marines my butt!! If you are close enough to shoot them, they are close enough to charge you. Assault marines jump out, shoot, and then die when they are charged by monstrous creatures who crush them. One power fist don't rock the world. (hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's, thats 1 1/2 wounds a turn. Good luck on living long enough to do anything.)


Hitting on 3's, wounding on 2's you mean. Most of the MC's in a zilla list (Especially the more dangerous ones) are T6. So you're looking at ~2 wounds per turn just from the power fist (5/3 technically)

Your average Carni only kills 5/6 of a marine per turn in assault (2 from shooting...). You would have to have 8 Carnifexes charging a unit of 10 assault marines to wipe it out in one turn on average.

As long as you can shoot the squishies (Raveners and Stealers), you should be okay assaulting Carni's.

Grand Master Raziel
31-05-2007, 17:39
A predator annihilar, even with the pricehike, is well worth it against this opponent. Park him against your own table edge, so he has to walk nice and far.


I thought about suggesting the Annihilator, as it's a relativey cheap way of getting 3 lascannons, but decided against it. If the OP's opponent fields any Zoanthropes, Pred Annihilators will be the first thing he turns them against. Fexes with Venom Cannons won't do him any good, either. Even if he only gets Glancing hits, 4 out of 6 of the results on the Glancing Hits table prevent the Pred from firing for at least a turn, and the OP needs his lascannons to be shooting every turn. So, in this case, it's better to spend more points on the Dev squad and have plenty of ablative wounds to protect the lascannons.

FuSs
31-05-2007, 17:50
Take him in close combat. His carnies dont stand the slighest chance against power fist wielding marines.
Kill the genestealers with assault cannons and heavy bolters first though.

Nidzilla are strong but there are many ways to beat them.

lurker9999
31-05-2007, 21:16
I use a predator annihilator to good effect. a little pricey for DA. A vindicator is only 125 pts i think. A strength 10 pie plate might get both fexes. Neither will be vulnerable to the carnifexes at long range. and then there is the good old fashioned Land Raider.

asher40
31-05-2007, 23:11
No one seems to have mentioned the new Whirlwind incendiary shell! Can there be a better weapon for killing the mass numbers of gaunts, stealers? Ignoring cover at long range is death to swarms. Also I have found that a Dev 4 Plasma cannon squad can drop a tyrant AND 3 guard in two turns if you roll enough partials.

Ian Argent
31-05-2007, 23:18
A venerable pod-naught or two might help as well; being able to get around behind the gaunt screen.

Skyth
01-06-2007, 01:28
No one seems to have mentioned the new Whirlwind incendiary shell! Can there be a better weapon for killing the mass numbers of gaunts, stealers? Ignoring cover at long range is death to swarms. .

The problem is it's only AP5. Not enough for Stealers. The Gaunt/Ravener version of the zilla list it would do quite alot of damage. The Stealer or hybrid version...not so much.

Btw, shouldn't this be in Tactics?

max the dog
01-06-2007, 02:33
Sorry guys but the speeder is toast vrs a zilla list. Most zilla lists are very shooty and the AV10 of a speeder is just easy points for a gunfex. A speeder vrs a swarm list is a completely different story though, that's where it rocks.

Don't leave your heavy bolters at home. It can still kill fex's and tyrants with lots of hot lead and can always be counted on tearing up the swarm.

I still say missle launchers can and should be used vrs zilla's, the dakkafex or any other elite fex is only going to have a save of 3+ so the krak missle will have no problem with them. You'll also be suprised to see how many zilla players take the extra wound or point of toughness instead of the 2+ save.

I still say that a good assault squad can rip the fex's pretty quick because I've had it done to me. The rest of the squad isn't there to keep the powerfisted sgt company. They get 3 attacks on the charge and thier numbers will most likely cause more wounds than the powerfist.

Skyth
01-06-2007, 02:51
10 man assault squad (2 pp, Power fist) shoots then assaults dakkafex in the open-

Shooting-1.19 wounds on fex, .11 marines lost.

Assault:.99 wounds from normal guys (2.17 total)

Fex swings at same time as fist-Kills .83 marines (.94 total dead)

Sgt swings, doing 2.22 wounds. Dead fex with 4.40 wounds total done.

How averages work.

Stealers will tear the assault squad a new one, but hey :)

Ian Argent
01-06-2007, 03:18
Run 2 smaller assault squads into the 'fex and you not only get a second fist, but the 'fex cannot kill both fists.

Darkangeldentist
01-06-2007, 03:36
Nidzilla is nasty but played carefully just about any army can take it down. Speaking as a nid player myself as well it's amazing how many times a 2+ save just doesn't look worth it. Compared to the extra wound and the tendancy for most people to take AP2 weaponry it often just doesn't make it onto the fexes. Plus elite ones can't fit it into the points. Even if you can't shoot the big bugs there's always the little critters.

Missiles are great and I think a devastator squad is best equipped with them over any of the other options. (For all the other potential pitfalls.)

Assault squads, ravenwing both can do inspiring work to taking down monsters but nothing beats a deathwing terminator squad with librarian for scaring the pants off a tyranid. Make sure you have plenty of storm bolters and powerfists for taking down the little stuff. Any of the heavy weapons are good and a librarian is gold. Force barrier and hellfire are good against nids. (Any flamer is good against nids and a super invulnerable save is just what you need against concentrated warp blasts or the odd rending hit.)

A command squad with a couple of plasmaguns in a command squad will also do you proud. Make sure you also take an apothecary and powerfist to make sure they survive longer and so he thinks twice about sending a carnifex into combat to stop the torrent of plasma shots. A rhino or razorback make them even more useful with the increased mobility and mobile cover.

Dreads and predators aren't too expensive and distract your opponents from your transports. They also possess the kind of mobile firesupport and cover to minimise the tyranids advantage in weight of numbers.

Just make sure you concentrate on killing stuff before moving on to something else. Pick your targets carefully and keep your distance to start with.

Gutlord Grom
01-06-2007, 03:45
A venerable pod-naught or two might help as well; being able to get around behind the gaunt screen.

This is a good idea, though I'm not quite sure that giving it venerable is worth it. DA Dreadnaughts are expensive. And plus the Drop pod might not come in to the last turn.

It's rare but it can happen.

malisteen
01-06-2007, 04:27
Since you're stuck with combat squads, you might as well use them. Have a couple full 10 man las/plas squads with pfist vets, then have a couple split squads - 5 with plasma gun & fist + 5 with heavy bolter.

From there you have lots of options.

A largish (8 or so) assault squad with max plasma pistols and veteran fister will make short work of carnifexes & even stand a good chance against hive tyrants.

Devs with four plasma cannons are a decent generalist option against the nids, since they have the AP2 for the big things, and if the little things are plentiful enough to be a problem he's probably not going to have them fully spaced all the time. Alternatively devs with four lascannons make short work of big guys, while devs with four missile launchers can play the field (although I still think they're inferior to plasma cannons in this particular match up)

A predator with lascannons or lascannon & heavy bolters can perform much the same roll as the devastators, and can do so on the move, although you have to watch out for venom cannons.

Rhinos, as mentioned, do a great job of limiting charge & firing lanes and slowing down the overall advance of the nids.

Terminators, with their fists and assault cannon, are easily a match for anything in the tyranid list except for genestealers, warriors or raveners pretending to be genestealers, and hive tyrants. Once those threats have been brought down, your terminators can more or less have run of the board. Since the enemy has to come to you, I wouldn't deep strike them.

Dreadnoughts can serve much the same roll as terminators, but again you have to watch out for the venom cannon or two that nidzilla usually fields.


Bikes, assault bikes, and speeders are not good options, imo, and should be avoided. If you field them in a 'takes all comers' list, I would hold them back, and use them as a counter-offensive later in the match.


Hope that helps a little.... Nid Zilla, like 'Nilla Drops and DEldar Gate (and to a lesser extent Fish of Fury, Necroporter, and Eldar Skims), can be a very tough list, simply because of how far it is from the norm for 40k armies. 'Balanced' armies frequently have trouble against these lists, and that makes them worth special consideration when coming up with your list and tactics. They aren't unbeatable, but if you let them throw you for a loop you'll lose.

cleansingfury
01-06-2007, 06:43
So say for 1000 points I took like a commander, 2 10 manlas/plas/fists, 5 terms, one assault cannon, and 2 redators, he could have 7 montsrous creatures and 20 gaunts.

It doesn't seem even possible. If they are shooting that many reroll S6 shots at you you will fail enough saves. And when his flying hive tyrant shoots 12 S6 shots and then asssaults my teminators they won't even attack back.

Do not take full squads! This means you have 10 guys idiling so that a heavy weapon can shoot! Get those bolters in double tap range using 6 or 8 man squads with flamers and open fire and cleanse the xenos scum! For the big creatures use either a powerfist, melta, or a tank, best way to do it!

Baneboss
01-06-2007, 07:08
Do not take full squads! This means you have 10 guys idiling so that a heavy weapon can shoot! Get those bolters in double tap range using 6 or 8 man squads with flamers and open fire and cleanse the xenos scum!

Have you read Dark Angels codex? :eyebrows:

Ronin_eX
01-06-2007, 08:36
It doesn't look like a few people have. Take 10 man squads as they are a source of cheap heavy weapons. Either missile launchers, plasma or lascannons will work. Combat squads will work well against nidzilla as the lower model count wont see them outnumbered quite so often (whirlies to take out any swarms was a very good suggestion due to incendiary rounds) and getting 2 or more five man melta/pf armed squads into combat with one or two MCs at a time will see you coming out on top quite often. The dev squads and shooty combat squads will see to the rest of them.

Another option for a larger game might be Azrael leading a large veteran squad with three powerfists in it. He confers the vets an invulnerable save which will keep them all going a lot longer while the three fists chew and Azrael chew through the MCs. Actually, on that note taking Sammael may be another good idea due to either version providing a lot of firepower in a resilient package. The DA have a lot of units they can throw at nidzilla lists that will likely do well. Hell, even Belial leading a fully kitted out DW squad with a standard bearer, apothecary and lots of TH&SS combos will do well if supported by a lot of firepower from the back lines.

There are plenty of good tactics available to the DA for taking out Nidzilla lists, so try a few out and see how it goes. Half of the fun of wargaming is outsmarting your opponent so get out there and show those bugs that you're no slouch. :p

cleansingfury
01-06-2007, 08:36
No one seems to have mentioned the new Whirlwind incendiary shell! Can there be a better weapon for killing the mass numbers of gaunts, stealers? Ignoring cover at long range is death to swarms. Also I have found that a Dev 4 Plasma cannon squad can drop a tyrant AND 3 guard in two turns if you roll enough partials.

WHAT THE HELL I WANT INCINDERARY SHELLS!!!
Wow cant wait for space marine main codex to be updated again!

Griffin
01-06-2007, 08:45
Well I was looking at the fact that it is in reality nigh impossible to beat with DA. The weapons that are effective against them are few and far between and very expensive. Heavybolters are good against the little guys but in nidzilla not high enough strength and not low enough ap. The simple fact is that one dakkafex costs a mere 118 points and you can take 6 of them. I think two equally skilled players one playing 2000 points DA and the other 1000 points nidzilla should be an even game.

tactical squads- do not have the hitting power to make up their points
ravenwing- way too expensive. a 40 points bike with a bolter is not taking down big bugs. attack bike with mm only has that one shot.
assault squads- about 300 points for one with 2 plasma pistols and a fist. make they could take down one biggy but not 300 points worth. Add a chaplain and youre up around 450. Not good for after the maybe one charge.
librarian- force weapon can actually instant kill these guys! But you probably won't strike first and anyways you have to roll 4 to hit and 6 to wound, then take a leadership test. Goodbye 180 point guy. Not happening.
terminators-no thank you, only will hurt them in close combat and they ignore your armour, and you don't want terms in any combat that ignores that much armour.
tornados-8 strength 6 shots against a now 100 point vehicle. nope.
devastators with 4 missiles. the best we've got I think, but not worth the high cost. THese nidzilla are so much cheaper and better than my dev's
predator- maybe, cheap enough, but what hurts is that it doesn't ignore armour. best bet though.
master on speeder. I would be so afraid of a S10 zoanthrope hitting him but I would take him, at least I get another cannon.
All characters-useless
scouts with a fist- maybe, but they would die really quickly.

You do know that missile launchers have 48" range ? Dakka's have to get close before they can even think of firing at you. Allso what about plasma cannons ? As for tac squads - if you stand still you have 24" range, throw in a missile launcher and you can outrange him, and still het some Nice S8 and AP2 shots in long before he gets to you. Use a assault squad led by chappy and Power fist sarge to finish off 1-2 wound models, while concentrating fire elsewhere - It's more tactics than list building (although the latter helps)

Ronin_eX
01-06-2007, 09:04
Yeah, the great part about many of the DA lists being suggested is that they aren't specialized in killing Nidzilla lists. I use many of the tactics suggested to take down Tau all the time. Making a balanced list and using your head will often prove more successful in the long run than tailoring every list to take a single foe. In the end you learn a lot more about how to play your army when you stick with one list and only change it when you find an overall weakness in it or your plans.

Mojaco
01-06-2007, 12:27
Sorry guys but the speeder is toast vrs a zilla list. Most zilla lists are very shooty and the AV10 of a speeder is just easy points for a gunfex. A speeder vrs a swarm list is a completely different story though, that's where it rocks.

Shooty but static. The speeder shoot be able to dictate who can see him and who can't, and thus have only a slim chance at death.

@ Grand Master Raziel:
I choose the pred annihilator over the devatators because of mobility and cost. Additionally it can see over obstacles more easy, never has to test who it'll shoot, not will it run away.

However, they are relatively easy to glance with nids, that's true. A lot depends on the opponent here. If only one fex goes 'round with venom cannons, he should be able to take him out in one turn, leaving the predator fairly save and a better choice then devastators. If on the other hand the nids have plenty of venom cannons, devastators will probably win out.

infinity101
01-06-2007, 12:53
all the suggested things probably work.....against a few of the zillas

but the problem is that even though you bring 2 or 3 down in 2 turns of your shooting, the rest, those other 4 MCs will get to you, or the swarm will tie up your shooting units, and from then on you will not have enough firepower to bring down four remaining T6 W4/5 save 2+ models

or am i mistaken?

jobi
01-06-2007, 13:30
Mass fire... Get as many bolter shots as possible. My Nidzilla were shot down by lasguns in a tourney...LOL. If you make him roll enough saves he's bound to fail some. Also Sniper Scouts. Hit on 2 and wound on 4. 10 of those are bound to make them fail saves. A Vindicator is always helpful also.

Grand Master Raziel
01-06-2007, 14:28
I'm with Raziel on the idea. that's a pretty effective anti nid godzilla force.

Well, just because I don't like the new DA rules doesn't mean I haven't thought about what I'd do with them.


No one seems to have mentioned the new Whirlwind incendiary shell! Can there be a better weapon for killing the mass numbers of gaunts, stealers? Ignoring cover at long range is death to swarms.

Yeah, heavy flamers. That said, I think the reason no one's suggested Whirlys is that the Heavy Support slots need to be taken up by MC-frying weaponry, so Dev squads or Predator Annihilators.


Sorry guys but the speeder is toast vrs a zilla list. Most zilla lists are very shooty and the AV10 of a speeder is just easy points for a gunfex. A speeder vrs a swarm list is a completely different story though, that's where it rocks.


I took that into account when I suggested the speeders, Max. Heavy flamers really only need one turn's worth of shooting to cut down any big brood of little bugs down to a manageable size. Also, IIRC, the way the DA rules are worded, you can have any combo of chin-mounted/gunner controlled weapon, so you could take heavy flamers and heavy bolters. Why the heavy flamers instead of assault cannons? Ignoring cover saves, and heavy flamers can kill a lot more little bugs in a single turn than an AC can.


Run 2 smaller assault squads into the 'fex and you not only get a second fist, but the 'fex cannot kill both fists.

That'd work against the first Fex. It might work against the second Fex. It stands a minute chance of working against the third. However, the OP has to face a possible total of 6 Fexes and 2 Hive Tyrants, and one only has 3 Fast Attack choices to work with.

I really don't see why everyone is advocating using Assault Squads and charging out to engage the Nids head-on. If there's one truism about the Nid army, it's that it's going to come to you. So, there's no reason not to simply sit back and let them do that while you soften them up with firepower.


Nidzilla is nasty but played carefully just about any army can take it down. Speaking as a nid player myself as well it's amazing how many times a 2+ save just doesn't look worth it. Compared to the extra wound and the tendancy for most people to take AP2 weaponry it often just doesn't make it onto the fexes. Plus elite ones can't fit it into the points. Even if you can't shoot the big bugs there's always the little critters.


While I would ordinarily agree with you on the virtues of missile launchers, in this case the OP is safer with lascannons. Krak missiles might ignore the TMCs' armor saves, but lascannons definately will, and it's not like he doesn't have room in his list for other units dedicated to killing the little gribblies.


This is a good idea, though I'm not quite sure that giving it venerable is worth it. DA Dreadnaughts are expensive. And plus the Drop pod might not come in to the last turn.
It's rare but it can happen.

That's why I didn't suggest it, either. I like the Drop-naught, because it's another good way of putting a heavy flamer on target (and it's got an AC, too), but in this battle the OP is probably going to need his little gribbly-killers to be available on Turn 2, and he might need them on Turn 1. The risk here is that the Drop-naught might not arrive in time to do what you need it to do.


Another option for a larger game might be Azrael leading a large veteran squad with three powerfists in it. He confers the vets an invulnerable save which will keep them all going a lot longer while the three fists chew and Azrael chew through the MCs.

That's not a bad idea. I'd probably do 2 fists and then load up on plasma and combi-plasmas. Then, when some MC gets within 18", have them step up and double tap with a hail of plasma. If that doesn't kill the sucker off, it'll soften him up pretty good. You might want to keep Azrael in back of the unit, though, so some rude gribbly can't single him out, because one hit from most MCs will insta-kill him.


Actually, on that note taking Sammael may be another good idea due to either version providing a lot of firepower in a resilient package.

That idea is less good. For what you pay for Sammael, you can put down a full 10-man squad with at least some of the upgrades you'll want them to have. Also, while Sammy might be resilient, and can probably avoid getting stuck in CC with the slow critters, if he's obliged to duke it out with an MCs he doesn't stand a very good chance of actually hurting any of them.


all the suggested things probably work.....against a few of the zillas
but the problem is that even though you bring 2 or 3 down in 2 turns of your shooting, the rest, those other 4 MCs will get to you, or the swarm will tie up your shooting units, and from then on you will not have enough firepower to bring down four remaining T6 W4/5 save 2+ models
or am i mistaken?

Well, I thought I had accounted for that in my suggestions.

A couple other ideas that got mentioned that I didn't quote that I want to address...

Assault Cannons: probably not your best choice in this scenario. They won't reliably ignore a 3+ save, so if you roll poorly your fire might just patter harmlessly off any MCs you turn them against. Plus, they have kind of a short range, putting your AC platforms inside the threat envelope of all kinds of Nid nastiness.

Sniper Rifles: one of those ideas that looks better on paper than when models actually hit table. Sure, they hit on a 2+ and wound anything on a 4+, but they don't ignore armor saves, and the targets you'd be turning them against here will have at least a 3+ save. So, spend the points elsewhere.

Arkturas
01-06-2007, 15:34
Maybe you should make sure all the fexes are legal first. The three elites as already mentioned are limited to 1500pt games or larger and even then they have a points cap. (the 118 point fex mentioned earlier for instance can't be taken as an elite, only as a heavy so only 3 of them)

For the three elites. They don't have extended carapace so hit them with AP3 weaponry or better (Missle launchers mostly). If they're running 2xTwin devourers then they will be low WS and low A so can be comfortably engaged in CC if a powerfist is available and even if not can be tied up for the rest of game by any 5+ marine squad from turn 3-4 onwards

The other 5 (Heavy Carnifexes and Tyrants). That's where the AP2 weaponry goes. Again if the fexes have guns (and no tail weapon, bio-plasma) they can be bogged down sufficiently in CC. Just avoid Tyrants.

eldaran
01-06-2007, 18:41
right. My advice is-make it a 1,500 point standard game, and expect 3 heavily tooled-up 'fexes and 2 Tyrants. pack a devvie squad with lascannons/plasma cannons and a termie squad, preferably with thunder hammers and storm shields, led by belial.

fire on the flyrant and then relax. Personally, i would take plasma cannons because they can be used on the little ones after.

Bear in mind it will take them three turns for the fexes and walking Tyrant to assault you IF you stay where you are, so move back.

for the smaller fexes, i would pack a couple of combat squads armed with meltaguns and power fists/plasma guns. i would also recommend a couple of big squads with missile launchers (they're cheaper) and a badass devvie squad with 4 missile launchers. Bear in mind, that unless he goes for 16-man squads of Hormagaunts (or any gaunts for that matter) most assaults are going to bounce off your toughness and armour, especially if you do a bit of shooting before hand. Also bear in mind that it will take the Hormagaunts two turns to hit you, unless they are obscenely lucky, and a move forward of at least six inches will leave them vulnerable to rapid fire range...

I would also us a ravenwing squadron, if only to teleport homer your termie squad into the tyrant.

Once his synapse net's gone, that leaves you free to deal with the fexes. have a bucket of marines that you can feed, whilst having some power fists and maybe a librarian.

I haven't got a DA codex, so don't know how that'll work.