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That Guy
30-05-2007, 17:04
I was comparing Thunderers and Quarrellers the other day and I was trying to decide with was better. Thunderers have essentially +1 BS and penetrate armor, but are three points more expensive. Quarrellers have longer range. So what's a Dwarf to do? I realized that, though both are Strength 4 move-or-shoot weapons, they are different in important ways that give them different roles in the well balanced Dwarf army.

Thunderers are fantastic for what I'll call "area denial". Set up ten thunderers and DARE your opponant to come within 24 inches. The extra +1 to hit and extra armor penetration really goes a long way towards putting a hurt on anything, particularly cavalry (light or heavy) or other units likely to flank you.

I see Quarreller as better conventional missle units. That is to say they can set up almost anywhere and use their 30" range to whittle away units' rank bonuses so that they'll be more managable in close combat. They won't ever take out a unit on their own like Thunderers potentially can, but their longer range ensures that their force can be applied where needed to support the rest of the army and their lower cost means the rest of the army will be a bit bigger.

These are just my thoughts about missle units in a balanced Dwarf force. Does anyone else have thoughts or experience that agrees or contradicts this?

EndlessBug
30-05-2007, 17:23
hehe yea, well I usually take 1 unit of each, for nice and balanced, I can never decide myself hehe, both are nice, though thunderers seem very expensive... just as easily killed by opposing missile fire.

E-Dog
30-05-2007, 17:26
You get what you pay for.. Thunderers are a good example of this. I would take the thunderers against armies with alot of armour ; Chaos, brets, or any opponent who likes to bring alot of knights. Other wise I would take quarrellers and save the points for something else.

wargob
30-05-2007, 18:45
I HATE thunderers so badly now... me and my friend had a 500p battle the other day... he placed 10 of them on a hill... and in the second round of battle,,,, he shot his first shots with them.... he killed all my 5 silverhelms with just 10 shots...... and well... the result of that battle will not be hard to gess

Khadhar'phak
30-05-2007, 22:19
I prefer Handguns, simply because of the fear I see in my opponents eyes when I set down all 20 of them (2 units of ten) in my deployment zone. They hate me when I bring my Dwarfs :evilgrin:

ehlijen
31-05-2007, 11:47
Quarrelers can also take great weapons. While expensive that makes them a rather hardy unit to take on for your average artillery hunters. Also, they don't get ouranged by those pesky elfs, or worse yet: bretonian peasants :0

Mouse_NJ
31-05-2007, 15:37
I actually prefer a large unit of quarrellers of 16 and then a small unit of thunderers around 12 in the same army. Both have excellent usages but typically not against the same units type. Thunderers are excellent vs armored foes, and quarrellers thin out those weedy goblin/skaven ranks real quick. Combine them with a Goblin Hewrer, and you can actually get by without the rest of the warmachine toys if you have to... but why would you:)

Vattendroppe
31-05-2007, 17:33
My brother has a semi-finished dwarf army that I feel I should take a game against sometime. He has two units of 10, and I must say that a feel so darn frightened of them!

Khadhar'phak
31-05-2007, 18:10
Indeed you should be! FEAR THE S4 -2 ARMOUR POWER! :evilgrin:

Stouty
31-05-2007, 18:30
Huge generalizations here

On defense thunderers are better
On offense quarrelers are better

There are times when you'll wish you'd bought the other choice though (wood elves and high elves poncing around 30" away) but that's just life.

twj
31-05-2007, 18:56
My brother in a 2,000+ point battle will generally use a unit of 20 quarrellers with full command (which can be an incredibly annoying melee unit if you aren't careful) and 2 units of 10 thunderers in supporting roles elsewhere.

Basically, the recurring theme is that a mixture of both is best...

Bombot
31-05-2007, 19:08
On defense thunderers are better
On offense quarrelers are better

Just out of interest why? Is it the extra range? Because if I was doing an offensive Dwarf army I'd include Strollaz's Rune and just march the Thunderers forward. Then the range difference goes.

TimmyMWD
31-05-2007, 20:48
The problem with that is if you use Strollaz's you can't shoot during the first turn because that unit counts as moving.

Thunderers, in my opinion, were FAR better when they were +1 to hit at short range and were move-and-fire weapons. It promoted some movement by the dawi, now the current rules just encourage a gunline.

BlackViper
03-06-2007, 10:37
I agree. People hated thunderers because they could move and fire. But that of course ment a 3' move and -1 to hit, which isn't really very useful anyway. Now they remain stationary and are great shots I'm even more compelled to sit back and shoot.

Sanjuro
03-06-2007, 10:47
I agree. People hated thunderers because they could move and fire. But that of course ment a 3' move and -1 to hit, which isn't really very useful anyway.

Mate, it wasn't that they could move forward and shoot. It was that they could turn around and shoot. That was an excellent ability that was sadly lost for dwarf players in the new army book. I know it has become easier for me to outmanouvre dwarfs since the move-and-fire rule of dwarf handguns went away.

Your Mum Rang
03-06-2007, 11:16
I think I may start using lergish units of Thunderers in place of Warriors in defensive Dwarf armies. You see in defensive armies, having those warriors stand around, waiting for the enemy to reach them seems like wasted points.

So why not have larger units of Quarrelers and Thunderers with shields and GW's with command who can do *almost* the same job as Warriors in CC yet be able to affect the enemy as they move toward your lines?

Frankly
03-06-2007, 13:19
Crossbows win out for me.

The range gives you first turn shooting while keeping you out of range from other H.gunners.

Not only that, but for range damage generally your going to take alot of anti-armour stuff anyway like B.throwers(hands down the best MW in the book) that you can rely on for shooting knights.

While C.Bows are needed to thin out rank and file and give you a static CR advantage in combat with other infantry units.

@Your mum rang.

Its a timing thing first of all, actually getting large units of ranged attacker to move and reform into a CC unit takes a turn of shooting and can leave them out of position for combat as well.

Lightly armoured and points cost of a ranged attack unit geared up for combat isn't great.

In battle range attack units actually work well as flanking detachments they're also good at taking light cavalry charges, losing but staying in combat and winning next round, so they can protect rank and file flank pretty well.

Most of all, a dwarf battle line should NOT be static, at deploymnent you should have a thought in your head about how your army looks like in turn 3 or when its going to be charged. So in those 3 turns as a dwarf player you should to repositioning your units all the time to hassle your opponents charge selections and you should be setting up charge bait and counter charges for yourself. Only your ranged attack units should be static.

theunwantedbeing
03-06-2007, 13:38
Thunderers = more powerful but shorter range
Quarrelers = longer range but less penetrative power

I'de take thunderer's as they hit more with greater accuracy,the extra 6" range isnt particularly useful to have over less accuracy and less hitting power,despite the additional cost.

You may as well march up 6" on turn one if you go first,deploy your thunderer's in a long thin line infront of everything else acting as a screen.Your warriors and such just go behind them.
Charge reactions are always stand and shoot,doesnt matter if you get mauled in combat,they flee and the fully ranked warrior/whatever unit behind keeps the thunderer's from getting ran down.
You'll rally anyway and pass any panic test you have to make.

Frankly
03-06-2007, 13:50
You may as well march up 6" on turn one if you go first,deploy your thunderer's in a long thin line infront of everything else acting as a screen.Your warriors and such just go behind them.
Charge reactions are always stand and shoot,doesnt matter if you get mauled in combat,they flee and the fully ranked warrior/whatever unit behind keeps the thunderer's from getting ran down.
You'll rally anyway and pass any panic test you have to make.


Sooooo .... your saying loss a turn of shooting, set yourself up for a second turn cavalry charge(why cavalry ... because they're your best target for ranged a anti-armour unit) and then to lose combat and give your opponent a chance to over-run into your rank and file for more combat where he gets the charge.

On top of that you've likely given yourself a buddle of negate L.d. tests

So, you've wasted a turn of shooting and throwen away 2 movement phases and a flanking unit(the gunners) for what?

Khorneflakes
10-06-2007, 04:39
I use 3 units of 14 xbowmen for dealing with hordes and two organ guns for heavy armour in my army:)

Atzcapotzalco
10-06-2007, 08:27
Have to say, espescially if your favouring the decent sized units with shields and command group approach as I do, having at my worst fielded 22 crossbow dwarves plus hero, the difference in points is far from trivial. Thunderers are more expensive than veterans even, and giving my larger unit crossbows instead represents a significant saving in points to spend elsewhere. Additionally, great weapons are a useful option not available to thunderers.

itcamefromthedeep
10-06-2007, 18:46
Anyone ever tried a deep unit of 20 quarrelers to shoot at enemy artillery on a hill?

CHOOBER SNIPES
11-06-2007, 23:59
Thunderers = more powerful but shorter range
Quarrelers = longer range but less penetrative power

I'de take thunderer's as they hit more with greater accuracy,the extra 6" range isnt particularly useful to have over less accuracy and less hitting power,despite the additional cost.

You may as well march up 6" on turn one if you go first,deploy your thunderer's in a long thin line infront of everything else acting as a screen.Your warriors and such just go behind them.
Charge reactions are always stand and shoot,doesnt matter if you get mauled in combat,they flee and the fully ranked warrior/whatever unit behind keeps the thunderer's from getting ran down.
You'll rally anyway and pass any panic test you have to make.

when fleeing, if the person chasing rolls higher, they are run down, doesnt matter if they run into another unit (they ran faster, caught them, then hit next unit)

Crazy Harborc
12-06-2007, 00:46
I have used larger units of quarrellers and/or thunderers on a couple of occasions. The +1 for a standard and +1 for a rank came in handy with the better armour save they had (I added shields).:)

As previously mentioned......better saving or T4 stroops need the -2 to their armour save a thunderer gives. That, extra 6 inches of distance is great too.