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Nell2ThaIzzay
30-05-2007, 19:30
Pretty self explanatory title: Do you get a hand weapon & shield armor bonus with a 1 handed magical weapon?

The weapon in question is the Sword of Kings. The configuration in question is a Wight Lord, Heavy Armor, Enchanted Shield, Sword of Kings. He should get a 2+ armor save, unless of course magical weapons don't get the bonus, it'd only be a 3+.

My friend told me that yea, I should be able to. But we've been wrong before.

Da GoBBo
30-05-2007, 19:39
This bonus only aplies to mundane weapons and armour, so neither of them can be a magic item. You are allowed to wear other magic armour though.

mav1971
30-05-2007, 19:39
If you have a magic weapon and a shield (magic or not) you don't get the bonus. If you have a hand weapon and a sheild(magic or not) you do get the bonus.

DeathlessDraich
30-05-2007, 19:46
To qualify as a handweapon, the magic weapon rules must state that it 'counts as' or is a handweapon.
Sword of Kings is a called a sword but its rules do not state it is a hand weapon.

In addition, there is another rule for magic weapons:
"always ignore any rules that apply to ordinary weapons of the same type unless otherwise specified"

Therefore a magic weapon that is a hand weapon does not benefit from
a) the hand weapon and shield bonus and
b) also does not count as a second hand weapon

Most players agree on (b) but some here will no no doubt diagree about (a)

Festus
30-05-2007, 19:47
Hi


This bonus only aplies to mundane weapons and armour, so neither of them can be a magic item. You are allowed to wear other magic armour though.
This is the old rule, 6th ed. It has changed.

edit: And DDraich: I disagree on a): If it is a Handweapon, it will follow all of the handweapons rules - as well as all rules for Magic Weapons. a) is contradictory to none, whereas b) violates the Magic Weapons' rules on p. 121 BRB
Festus

Da GoBBo
30-05-2007, 19:51
Oeps, sorry about that.:angel:

BTW. which section explains this rule anyway, can't seem to find it.

edit:

Therefore a magic weapon that is a hand weapon does not benefit from
a) the hand weapon and shield bonus and
b) also does not count as a second hand weapon

why would magic weapons that count as wardancer weapons follow the rules for wardancer weapons (Blades of Loec), but magic weapons that count as handweapons not follow the rules for handweapons?

Festus
30-05-2007, 19:54
Weapon's rules, p. 56, BRB

Griefbringer
30-05-2007, 20:01
I have a feeling that this will again end up as another debate about the Sword of the Quest.

In any case, to try to answer the original question: you only get the hand weapon and shield bonus for using an actual hand weapon. For a weapon to actually qualify as a hand weapon, it needs to say so - the number of hands actually needed to wield it is totally unrelevant.

Sword of the Kings only follows its own rules, which AFAIK do not make any mention of it being a hand weapon - thus it is not a hand weapon.

Nell2ThaIzzay
30-05-2007, 22:36
Sword of the Kings only follows its own rules, which AFAIK do not make any mention of it being a hand weapon - thus it is not a hand weapon.

It doesn't, hence the question. I always thought magic weapons negated Hand Weapon & Shield bonus, but my friend told me since the sword is 1 handed, I'd get the bonus.

Ninsaneja
30-05-2007, 23:21
It can only qualify for bonuses for being a hand weapon if this is specifically stated in the item description. As the SoK does not, it does not gain said bonuses.

theunwantedbeing
31-05-2007, 00:11
You need the hand weapon rule on your weapon,and the sheild rule on your sheild to gain the benefit of the hand weapon and sheild combination.

Your items can be mundane or magical,so long as they have those rules.
Magical items lose the rules for the mundane version unless specifically stated that they are a particular type of weapon.

Only the sword of the quest is stated to be a hand weapon,so only that can be used to gain the bonus(I think).

Cragspyder
31-05-2007, 04:43
However, hand weapons with special rules, such as the weapons carried by Grave Guard, Tomb Guard, Icon Bearers, and Wights, can still benefit from the HW and Shield rule, despite not being 'mundane' hand weapons.

Brother Siccarius
31-05-2007, 05:12
You need the hand weapon rule on your weapon,and the sheild rule on your sheild to gain the benefit of the hand weapon and sheild combination.

Your items can be mundane or magical,so long as they have those rules.
Magical items lose the rules for the mundane version unless specifically stated that they are a particular type of weapon.

Only the sword of the quest is stated to be a hand weapon,so only that can be used to gain the bonus(I think).

Actually a magical shield never stops being a shield, only a magic weapon loses the rules it had before (unless otherwise stated by it's rules).

elvenmagi69
31-05-2007, 05:17
i thought they both had to be mundane to count... ... ...

Festus
31-05-2007, 05:26
No, they must be *Hand Weapons* and *Shields* respectively. That is the requirement.

Gorbad Ironclaw
31-05-2007, 07:35
i thought they both had to be mundane to count... ... ...


Thats a 6th ED rule and not found anywhere in 7th. Just many who haven't noticed that yet.

Wadders
01-06-2007, 08:10
They cleared this up in the FAQ

You do get the bonus for a magic shield

you never get it for a magic weapon - EVER -as they cease to be hand weapons



Latest FAQ on the GW site

Evil-Lite
01-06-2007, 08:23
Be careful with the "Ever" word. There are exceptions, wight blades being one of them. As others have stated, unless specificaly stated in the rules of a magic weapon they do not gain the benefit of being a hand weapon.

Festus
01-06-2007, 10:11
Yes, be careful: The Sword of the Quest is a Magic Weapon which is - by virtue of its own rules - a Handweapon, and thus follows all the rules for a Handweapon, including the *Parry Bonus* (ie. the improved save if used with a shield on foot).

Festus

Wadders
01-06-2007, 22:06
Be careful with the "Ever" word. There are exceptions, wight blades being one of them. As others have stated, unless specificaly stated in the rules of a magic weapon they do not gain the benefit of being a hand weapon.

Wight blades counts as magical attacks, but are not magical as such. Otherwise you could destroy them with certain items are spells.

Wadders
01-06-2007, 22:07
Yes, be careful: The Sword of the Quest is a Magic Weapon which is - by virtue of its own rules - a Handweapon, and thus follows all the rules for a Handweapon, including the *Parry Bonus* (ie. the improved save if used with a shield on foot).

Festus

If has it written on the item that it counts as a mundane weapon for the bonus in combat, then i will agree, but i do not have the book in front of me at the minute. I will check when i get home

Evil-Lite
01-06-2007, 22:35
Wight blades counts as magical attacks, but are not magical as such. Otherwise you could destroy them with certain items are spells.

So the Wight blades are magical but not magical? I guess the new White Dwarf model does not count as having runic items (Magical) either because you can not make them loose their magical abilities with certain items or spells.

Masque
01-06-2007, 22:35
Wight blades counts as magical attacks, but are not magical as such. Otherwise you could destroy them with certain items are spells.

Vampire Counts, Page 27, Wight Blades:
"Any normal weapon carried by a Wight counts as a magic weapon (but all the normal rules for that weapon still apply)."

Wadders
02-06-2007, 07:20
The above point argues against the Bret sword, as it states that wight blades count as magical but retain all the rules of their mundane counter part.

As far as i am aware the Bret sword does not have that wording.

Festus
02-06-2007, 08:58
No, it has: Hand Weapon. As the caveat, that the weapon must not be magical to gain the bonus, is not in the BRB anymore (cf. p.56) and the Magic Weapons rules say that a Magic Weapon follows only its own set of rules.

So if a Magic Weapon has the rule Hand Weapon, how can you assume that it does not follow this very rule?

Festus

Wadders
02-06-2007, 21:14
Read the latest FAQ, which i presume most people on this site don't do... and it will give you your answer

You DO NOT get the bonus for using a magic weapon and shield - the wight blade has this written as an exception in its own description

Jonke
02-06-2007, 22:25
Q. Does a character benefit from the "Fighting with hand weapon and shield (infantry)" rule found on page 56, if armed with a mundane weapon and magical shield?

A. Yes. However it will not if armed with magical weapon and mundane or magical shield, because the magical weapon loses the normal rules of hand weapons.

This is the one you're talking about?

Sword of the quest has lost the normal rules of a hand weapon by virtue of being a magical weapon. But, it gains all rules of a hand weapon by its own rules stating it is a hand weapon (a.k.a counts a hand weapon a.k.a follows all the normal rules of a hand weapon).

Peace!

Wadders
03-06-2007, 00:43
Does it say retains all the abilities of the mundane type? because if it does not it only means it is able to be used in conjunction with a shield - not hand weapon and shield bonus,

the FAQ states - it does NOT.

peace to you too

Atrahasis
03-06-2007, 00:49
Wadders, it says it can be used as a hand weapon or as a great weapon.

It does not need to say "retains all the properties of its type" because being of the type is enough to give those properties. Magical weapons generally have no type (despite being called "Sword of Slashydeath" or whatnot). SotQ has two optional types, and depending on the player's choice works as either one.

Wadders
03-06-2007, 01:39
Thats wrong,


there are a number of "great weapon" magical weapons. Including the tomb king's slayer of eternities, black axe of krell and many others i no doubt expect. The FAQ specifically explains you get no "parry" bonus for a magical weapon (weather it be a sword, single handed double handed or carried by your friend)

the Sword is giving the ability to carry with a shield and strike in I order or +2 strength (+1 if mounted) and strike last.

Both giving no save and magical attacks.

The FAQ says NO magic weapon gives a "parry save"

Atrahasis
03-06-2007, 01:47
That's why I said "generally" have no type.

If being a hand weapon doesn't qualify the SotQ for the hand weapon and shield bonus then being a great weapon doesn't grant +2 strength.

Jonke
03-06-2007, 01:49
Is it possible that the writer of the FAQ didn't think of the possibility of a magical weapon wich has the Hand Weapon rule when writing that sentence?

Peace!

Festus
03-06-2007, 08:27
Wow!

There is someone even more stubborn than me :eek: I can hardly believe it ;)

But seriously: The Faq tells us that a Magic Weapon cannot claim the *Parry* bonus BECAUSE Magic Weapons are not Hand Weapons, as they lose all their mundane rules. Only the rules of the Item's Description apply.

As there is a Magic Weapon which is - by virtue of its own rules - a Hand Weapon, it has to follow the rules of a Hand Weapon. All rules of a Hand Weapon, not just some, not most, but all.

Magic Weapons which are Great Weapons will follow all the rules for a Great Weapon in a similar vin: They will add +2(+1) to Strength and will strike last. And they will use both hands. And not just the one or the other rule, all three.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
03-06-2007, 11:05
A repeat of a previous discussion as expected. :D

It is true that:

1) Magic Weapons follow only their own rules and not rules implied by their equivalent mundane type.

2) Magic weapons not listed in the 'Magic Items' section (e.g. Tomb and Wight blades) are differentiated from magical attacks (daemons and some Skaven) but not necessarily differentiated from 'Magic weapons' in the 'Magic items' section. Fortunately Tomb and Wight blades have their rules explained quite clearly. Therefore this is not a problem.

3) The errata for magic weapons changed the phrase 'special rules' of mundane weapons of the same type to just 'rules'. This further confined magic weapons' rules and made it more exclusive of other rules.

However, any sane player, playing with Brets or against them would/should make an exception of Sword of Quest. Adhering to the rules too strictly for this Sword will render it useless.

Festus
03-06-2007, 11:41
However, any sane player, playing with Brets or against them would/should make an exception of Sword of Quest. Adhering to the rules too strictly for this Sword will render it useless.
Fully correct:

As the SoQ is a Hand weapon, no other special rules can pertain to it. So all the Item's rules become moot the very instance they apply... aaarrggghhh! Logic overload! Head explodes...

;)

cf. BRB, p.56, left column, 2nd sentence... :D

Festus

GodHead
03-06-2007, 17:45
This thread....Kill it. Kill it with fire.

ZomboCom
04-06-2007, 16:53
I love this debate, since it's over a fairly rubbish magic item and only applies if carried by a bretonnian character on foot, which almost never happens anyway.

Oh, and he has to choose to use it as a hand weapon rather than a great weapon too.

Wadders
05-06-2007, 08:10
I agree, the argument is pretty much useless... but it annoys me when people cry out for FAQ's to clear up "problems".... continually cry about the game should be RAW and ignore it when it pleases them.

Festus
05-06-2007, 12:33
Hi

...but it annoys me when people cry out for FAQ's to clear up "problems".... continually cry about the game should be RAW and ignore it when it pleases them.
I will simply assume that you didn't include me in *people*. And none of what you say in this post has any bearing on the rules-problem at hand, as the rules themselves are pretty much laid out.

Not granting the *Parry* bonus to the SoQ is hardly ignoring any rules, or is it? :eyebrows:

Festus

Skyweir
07-06-2007, 10:10
Clearly, this is one of those FAQ's that does not explain anything.
If it is true that a magic sword that is given the rule "Hand weapon" from it's listing, in fact does not get the rule "Hand Weapon", then weapons like the Spear of Antharak (which has the rule Spear) or the dwarven rune that makes a runic weapon retain it's previous rules (like Hand Weapon) are now suddenly not affected by the rules explicitly given in their listings.

I think this is one of the times where we have to apply the "golden" rule. If the BRB is contradicted (and I assume the FAQ is for the BRB) by any other rulebook,then the latter takes presedence over the main rules.

Evil-Lite
07-06-2007, 22:28
Think of all the Ogre weapons that count as Great Weapons...