PDA

View Full Version : Dogs of War cannons - where is the love?



Bombot
31-05-2007, 10:59
I've noticed it said a few times now, in reviews of DoW army lists, that the cannon is a questionable choice, seemingly because "it's the smaller type". But so is the Dwarf cannon, and no-one seems to say the same about them.

Why the discrepancy?

Sanjuro
31-05-2007, 11:27
Say what now? Who questions the DoW cannon in a DoW army? They are an excellent choise - relatively cheap and effective artillery. It's my opinion that DoW need cannons to work as an army. Sod that about them being 'smaller' - sure, they only do D3 wounds as compared to D6 for the great cannon, and sure, they can't be runed up as the dwarven cannons can, but they are cheap, they are good and they are there. I wouldn't take to the field without 2 of 'em these days.

Jedi152
31-05-2007, 11:32
I thought the DoW cannon was a small S5 affair to fit the galloper gun models - or am i think of the rules for those?

Bombot
31-05-2007, 11:38
Jedi, I have the list right in front of me and it says "See the Warhammer rulebook for details of these weapons (page 122). The cannon is the smaller of the two types". So I think you must be thinking of something else.

My opinion matches Sanjuro's. It's just that I've seen them dissed by more than one poster. The diss was more of a 'galloper guns are better, as the cannons are the small ones' type thing but the basic cannons seem good enough to me.

Jedi152
31-05-2007, 11:45
Oh well, i think i was thinking of the actual rules for Bronzino's guns.

Sanjuro
31-05-2007, 13:25
Oh well, i think i was thinking of the actual rules for Bronzino's guns.

Yes, and even those are S7. :)

Bloodknight
31-05-2007, 13:40
They were S5 in 5th edition, maybe you confused that.

And yes, the greatest asset of DoW cannons is their existance.
Dwarfs get cannons as special choices and can upgrade them in several ways, so them being the smaller type is not as "crippling", but DoW only have rare warmachines and the cannon is the best choice, because the army needs high strength shooting as almost all of their troops are quite weak and expensive and have therefore to weaken the enemy before impact.
The hotpot is quite nice, but lacks a bit punch and survivability and the goblin hewer, though really the most killy of the options, needs a hero and a rare choice.

Mouse_NJ
31-05-2007, 15:32
I use DOW cannons in my Orcs army frequently as i find them extremely helpful and great for the points cost. I've even seen/played against dwarf players who decide to "Cannon Max" and run their Specials full of cannons, and rares full of cannons for a mighty 6 in the game then run lots of warriors in front of their boom guns.

For what they do their wonderful, dwarf cannons are better, but more pricey as you can add engineers and runes to add bonuses. However for the points a DOW cannon is a great addition to most armies to add the punch you need.

Stouty
31-05-2007, 18:27
DoW cannon are one of the best rare choices in the game. Some rare choices are so good they are always taken within one armybook but few rare choices are so good that the following armybooks should all consider one
-VC (banshee? Three letters: ItP. Black coach? Two letters: S7)
-Dark Elves (a good guess makes them more accurate than RBTs for less points. only disadavantage is you can't take 2 and they suck versus skirmishers)
-Empire (rare slots are a lot easier to find in an empire army than special slots)
-OG (not as funny as real OG warmachines but a lot of the time they're better, certainly more reliable)
-oh and DoW

Probably some other armies that might think about taking one under more specific circumstances but those were the ones that sprung to mind, having been the ones I've seen the DoWC with.

Braad
31-05-2007, 19:21
I just finished converting a DOW cannon for my O&G army. Fielded it for the first time last week.
Nice... apart from being killy, it is also scary for those who do not expect such thing in an O&G army.

Downside was that it blew itself up somewhere in turn 4 or so...

You know, about that D3 wounds thing... I accidentily said I did D6 wounds instead of D3 wounds on a carnosaur with the cannon that game, and both me and my opponent did not notice the mistake... I rolled 2, so I said 2 wounds, and after that the carnosaur had only two wounds left. Then there was a major battle including the carnosaur and I was going bad, but at the end my black orcs warboss (general) managed to do 3 wounds on the carnosaur. Of course, since it only had 2 wounds left, I only scored two points of combat res.
I lost the combat by one point... my big 'uns unit including general fled the field...

Only later I noticed that the cannon should have done D3 wounds, not D6, meaning the carnosaur should have entered that combat with 3 wounds left, not 2, which would mean that I could score all 3 wounds on him and not discard 1 and I would have tied the battle instead of lost...

See, D3 wounds can be a good thing :P

Poomermon
31-05-2007, 19:25
DoW cannon are one of the best rare choices in the game.

That is exactly the reason why many people are not comfortable at allowing DOW in their games. The cannon completely messes up the balance in armybooks because it is almost strictly better choise in many armies than what they normally can get as their rares. Who actually takes banshee in competetive game when they can remove one of their armies weaknesses by taking a cannon? I think GW should fix this if they ever update the DOW.

ZeroTwentythree
31-05-2007, 19:32
That is exactly the reason why many people are not comfortable at allowing DOW in their games. The cannon completely messes up the balance in armybooks because it is almost strictly better choise in many armies than what they normally can get as their rares. Who actually takes banshee in competetive game when they can remove one of their armies weaknesses by taking a cannon? I think GW should fix this if they ever update the DOW.



Maybe they (GW) should consider making sure the rest of the armies have something worthwhile in their Rare options. It seems odd that so many armies can't come up with anything better than a simple cannon in the portion of their army book where all the really cool stuff is supposed to go.

memitchell747
31-05-2007, 20:36
That is exactly the reason why many people are not comfortable at allowing DOW in their games. The cannon completely messes up the balance in armybooks because it is almost strictly better choise in many armies than what they normally can get as their rares. Who actually takes banshee in competetive game when they can remove one of their armies weaknesses by taking a cannon? I think GW should fix this if they ever update the DOW.

C'mon, one or two small cannons completley mess up balance? Really?

Show of hands, who would prefer any of the following Rare choices to DoW small cannons:

Banshees.
Hellcannon
Shaggoth
Chaos Spawn
Earthshaker cannon
RBT
Flame cannon
Gyrocoptor
Organ gun
Hellblaster
Hellstorm
Steam tank
Salamander packs
Maneater units
Rhinox riders
Doom Divers
Warp Lighting Cannon
Screaming Skull catapult
Treeman

People who do not allow DoW in their games don't know much about DoW. Consider that the following are completely legal, "completely balanced": 5 Ratling guns, or 2 Salamander Packs, or 2 Organ guns, or 2 steamtanks, or 8 Orc chariots, etc...

sulla
31-05-2007, 20:43
I always prefer 2 DoW cannons over 2 rbt in my DE even though they take up more points. Sure, i would love a cauldron as well to bolster my fighting in the middle of the field butu I never have the points so not having the slot in 2000pt games is not really a problem.

I'd go for the acuracy of guess range cannons and the small chance of a misfire over rbt's which only hit half the time over long range anyday... And it's really nice to be able to pop enemy chariots for a change too.

Zapherion
31-05-2007, 20:55
earthshaker cannon? whats that in fantasy? thought it was a basilisk?

Bloodknight
31-05-2007, 21:35
Itīs a Chaos Dwarf Warmachine.

ZeroTwentythree
31-05-2007, 21:36
*raises hand*

As a skaven player, I'd prefer the DoW cannon to the Warp Lightning Cannon (or the censor bearers - my other Rare choice.)

narlix
01-06-2007, 01:42
Haha yeah , that list looks about right, though I will say the Doom diver is on par with the cannon, an even trade really, as it will normally get more hits on a cav unit less on infantry than the cannon.

E-616
01-06-2007, 01:55
I field a DoW cannon in my Von Carstein VC list, I wouldn't wanna be without it in that list, sure it'll only kill something every few games or so and it'll blow itself up half the time, but for sheer psychology value it's worth every point.

No one expects a cannon in a VC army and people get scared and can make some big mistakes just trying to avoid it...

Also, I converted mine to have mercenary looking crew with a zombie crew member and it's set up in a cemetary too :D

memitchell747
01-06-2007, 05:03
OK, Skaven and Orcs Rares were about equal to the DoW cannon. Their Rares are not inspiring.

Iron Father
01-06-2007, 05:08
C'mon, one or two small cannons completley mess up balance? Really?

Show of hands, who would prefer any of the following Rare choices to DoW small cannons:

Banshees.
Hellcannon
Shaggoth
Chaos Spawn
Earthshaker cannon
RBT
Flame cannon
Gyrocoptor
Organ gun
Hellblaster
Hellstorm
Steam tank
Salamander packs
Maneater units
Rhinox riders
Doom Divers
Warp Lighting Cannon
Screaming Skull catapult
Treeman

People who do not allow DoW in their games don't know much about DoW. Consider that the following are completely legal, "completely balanced": 5 Ratling guns, or 2 Salamander Packs, or 2 Organ guns, or 2 steamtanks, or 8 Orc chariots, etc...

pre 7th ed. and new empire codex, i would have taken a few of those over DoW cannons. however in the end, GW simply feels the need to nerf these units with the numpty stick, steam tank... people complained it was too hard to kill, so now it has wounds and a toughness... oh and no upgradability, hell blaster, not needs to roll to hit, i suspect the sallies will be like that the next time the LM book rolls around, banshee...ItP, or even general's leadership, the ogre options cost too much point wise, the hellcannon takes up like 2 rare choices in a normal chaos army, right? etc etc etc

DoW cannons are where its at, its that simple

Mouse_NJ
01-06-2007, 13:24
here's my take on the following as rare choices and if i would use them:

Banshees-yes, for what they can do to rank and file units with low leadership definitely worth it.

Hellcannon-no, for its point cost there's no point, a DOW cannon is more effective for less points. a Hellcannon sucks up to many points

Shaggoth-Maybe, shaggoths are better than giants in my opinion, but the points are really high. I think i'd prefer 2 DOW cannons over the Shaggoth for game play, but for theme i'll take shaggy.

Chaos Spawn-Spawns are unpredictable at best, some players would gladly take a cannon over a spawn, personally the way i play my Minotaur army i'd prefer a Spawn

Earthshaker cannon-For similar costs this is a much better option

RBT-Bolt throwers are excellent war machines that fit well

Flame cannon-No, i'm just not sold on a Dwarf flame cannon, I feel there are better options in the Dwarf list, and the Dwarf player should avoid the DOW cannon anyway

Gyrocoptor-Yes, Gyro's rock in dwarf lists

Organ gun-Yes, no brainer

Hellblaster-Yes, with the new rules Hellblasters are very useful now and a lot more reliable then what they were

Hellstorm-No, I don't like the Hellstorm at all, its rules are odd, and its not nearly as useful as another cannon

Steam tank-Maybe, call it luck but i have a nack for killing Steam tanks, guess i'm lucky

Salamander packs-Yes, useful, fluff, dang annoying to play against when someone brings them

Maneater units-Yes, I've used them instead of cannons and their excellent

Rhinox riders-No, I don't think Rhinox riders should be in a game as i've seem the used/abused more than i can think by ogre players who pretty much exclusively use them to win games over and over again without engaging you with the rest of their army. I personally would never run one

Doom Divers-Yes, Doom Divers are more predictable and have a higher kill ratio then a cannon due to the non linear method that it hits

Warp Lighting Cannon-yes, if you've played skaven and used one you'll use them every game.... i'd really like to have 2

Screaming Skull catapult-yes, ever play a tomb king player without one?? didn't think so

Treeman-Yes, elves should always bring one..

Brother Huss
01-06-2007, 15:18
Hellblaster-Yes, with the new rules Hellblasters are very useful now and a lot more reliable then what they were


:wtf: Where's the sarcasm emoticon? You really can't be serious in asserting that the helblaster is more reliable in its new incarnation. It still has the same chance of misfire and it now has tro roll to hit. Hmmm...fewer hits, same chance of misfire = less effective with same reliability. These were very useful in 6th edition, now they are on par with the rocket battery.

As for DOW cannons. I use the galloper guns when I play a cavalry heavy army.

I take DOW cannons when I am short on special slots. The empire list is packed with useful special choices and kind of short on rare choices. Even the steamtank is questionable...a couple of wounds and it becomes a very expensive "bunker".

But there are plenty of other DOW units I use in my empire army:
dwarves, pikes, duelists, light cavalry.