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Mad Doc Grotsnik
02-06-2007, 14:42
It's a simple enough question, with, no doubt, a highly contestable and complex set of answers. As ever, heres my opinion to start you off.

It's MY Hobby.

I paid for my books. I paid for my army. I painted my army. I converted my General. From here on in, Games Workshop are just my supplier, and currently, my gaming venue.

However, soon I shall have my own board (having measured my bedroom, I have enough space to squeeze in a 6x4 board) which means Games Workshop being relegated to just being the source of my Hobby materials. DO I care about WYSIWYG when playing at home? Up to me. You want to use other companies models in the comfort of my own home? Well, as long as they are identifiable as their GW counterparts so not to confuse what I'm bludgeoning, don't see why not. To quote myself in another thread, want to play Nekkid with Curry on your head? Only if I get to join in.

I would suggest that peoples lack of will to take the Hobby into their own hands, and leaving it GWs is detrimental to your enjoyment! In a Games Workshop store, you have to accept you are bound to their rules and scriptures. In your own home, you do whatever the hell you want. You can apply restrictions, or throw the army organisation out.

ITS UP TO YOU. By allowing yourself to be dependant on GW, your hampering your own enjoyment. So go build a board, and dsicover the joys of your rules.

yabbadabba
02-06-2007, 15:06
Behind you 100% - except the Nekkid and Curry bit. The wife will have issues with that :)

It's our hobby - not GW's. If GW went down tomorrow I would still play 40K WFB e.t.c. I also love taking on other peoples genuine developments to the rules - cheers guys!

What I play at home and in my club might have no bearing on what GW envisages but I don't care cos I like it. When I attend an event I will play by the rules as dictated by the organisers.

And can I suggest something to all the people with issues with GW and it's products. Either buy shares and turn up at the next Shareholders meeting and put your case. Or organise a protest at Warhammer World during the week and demand to talk to those in charge. This is proactive action and will get you much better results than whinging on here.

Or stop buying the stuff and stop plaguing us with your issues.

KITS AND BITS
02-06-2007, 15:27
Behind you 100% - except the Nekkid and Curry bit. The wife will have issues with that :)

It's our hobby - not GW's. If GW went down tomorrow I would still play 40K WFB e.t.c. I also love taking on other peoples genuine developments to the rules - cheers guys!

What I play at home and in my club might have no bearing on what GW envisages but I don't care cos I like it. When I attend an event I will play by the rules as dictated by the organisers.

And can I suggest something to all the people with issues with GW and it's products. Either buy shares and turn up at the next Shareholders meeting and put your case. Or organise a protest at Warhammer World during the week and demand to talk to those in charge. This is proactive action and will get you much better results than whinging on here.

Or stop buying the stuff and stop plaguing us with your issues.

*standing clapping for yabbadabba*
couldnt agree more , im so sick of the constant bitching in these threads !

Charax
02-06-2007, 15:40
Not exactly what I had in mind when I suggested starting a "GW Hobby" thread, but nevermind.

Whose hobby is it? Nobody's and Everybody's - a Hobby is an activity, just like reading, and nobody can be said to "own" reading (little R. The Queen owns Reading)

So it is either owned by nobody, or by everybody who takes part in it - and I am wholly in agreement with Grotsnik - you want to use special rules? go ahead, you don't need GW's permission. You want to write your own rules, or play with non-citadel figures? Go right ahead.

The whole concept of "officiality" only matters when dealing with tournaments, and even then it's just an artificial imposition to help roughly predict the armies that will appear. GW's games were never intended as tournament games, they're meant to be *fun*

That said, GW should be praised a little - they do make the effort to emphasise this part of their games, and personalising them is encouraged.

On the other hand, people should be allowed to complain, and many of those complaints are valid and should not be brushed aside - if you don't like the complaints, don't read them, just like people saying if you don't like GW's prices, don't buy them.

Norminator
02-06-2007, 15:47
On the other hand, people should be allowed to complain, and many of those complaints are valid and should not be brushed aside - if you don't like the complaints, don't read them, just like people saying if you don't like GW's prices, don't buy them.

I don't think the issue is so much with complaints (and there is actually a thread about this in The Future of Warseer) but with unconstructive criticism, which I think if fair to call moaning. By this I mean people who post purely to berate Games Workshop, without any suggestions of their own or anything useful to add. Free speech and criticism if fine; but moaning to the point of pedantry isn't. If you don't like anything about Games Workshop (as some people on here would have it believed) then don't bother posting on a forum where the majority of threads is dedicated to games made by that company.

(Re-reading that seems like a dig at Charax; it wasn't, just a general statement responding to his point).

Varath- Lord Impaler
02-06-2007, 15:48
Here here! I Agree with Yabbadabba!!!

Bitching makes me a sad panda...then an angry panda...then i have to go and sit in 'the room' for awhile until the world stops being red.

...

Well I think the Hobby is always to those who play it. But GW are the company, the official face who helps it grow ever larger.

I am thankful for that.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
02-06-2007, 15:50
However, a great many complaints about balance etc.. stem from an alleged lack of balance in the games, which is easily rectified with house rules.

GW sells a frame a work, a skeleton if you like. It's up to the individual gamer how much flesh is put on it, what colour etc.. Which is why this thread exists. With any luck, gamers who are stuck with just GWs way will see that leaving the Hobby isn't the only alternative. Just go do your own thing however you want it!

And the point about GW games not being good for tournaments is a valid one. Take Magic the Gathering. Apart from banned cards, you have no idea what your going to face, so you make your deck as flexible, or as themed, as possible. GW games however, have far less possible combinations, which is why Dwarven Gunlines and Godzilla Nids are reviled on the Tournament circuit. Although legal lists, unless your opponent knows before hand thats what they are going to face, you might as well not bother playing them, as the end result is likely to be highly predicatble, and no fun whatsoever.

So stuff the Tournament circuit. I played in one, and it was alright. However, a single powergamer ruined what was otherwise a pleasent days gaming.

Hollopoint
02-06-2007, 16:15
I agree with what a lot has been said on here. I have no real interest in playing in official tournaments as I feel that GW games just don't fit into that style of play very well. All this moaning and groaning about balance is just one of the problems that arise from the focus on tournament play.

I can’t remember who suggested it, but I think on of the best ideas voiced on these forums was in the “To all the veterans” thread by Gav. It was that there should be a codex tournaments for all those who wish to play in them and therefore it would allow for the rest of us to concentrate on the fun side of things.

To answer the main question, the Hobby is mine. All mine! Mwahahaha! :D

malisteen
02-06-2007, 16:16
want to play Nekkid with Curry on your head? Only if I get to join in.

What you do is up to you, but I wouldn't recommend this. Playing with curry on your head could quickly lead to playing with curry in your eyes. Curry in your eyes is not fun.

On house rules for game balance: I don't generally recommend it. Sure, some times it's clear GW made a mistake (bret pegasus knights; 5 man archer squads in the old WD WE update), most of the time what people have problems with are either differences in play style or just things they aren't used to. Once a group starts rolling with house rule nerfs, it's hard to stop, and it frequently ends up with perfectly balanced material being nerfed because a club vet lost to it the first time he ran up against it. So I recommend setting standards on how you're going to play (cutthroat cheese vs. self imposed semblance of balance vs. pure fluffocracy), and just follow them, rather then hacking at the rules like amateur lumberjacks. Further, a load of house rules can be a major discouraging factor against new players joining your group. Again, your group, your rules, but I'd advise against it.

On playing at home: Playing at home is fine and good. You can come up with wacky rules, nobody will question you on your nudism or use of non GW models. But, the local gaming store, whether it's a GW store or an indy store that sells GW product and hosts gaming space, serves an important function. It's at this store that you might meet and play against new players, broadening you gaming experience. Also, these stores introduce new players to the games, which is absolutely vital to the long term survival of the hobby as a whole.


So while I am a supporter of playing at the home, be careful with house rules, and don't abandon the game store entirely.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
02-06-2007, 16:22
More good points.

House Rules can get out of control, which is why they need to be a group decision, and committed to paper. All too often people suggest a Houserule to nullify a particularly cunning tactic they can't out fox. This isn't on! However, to use the Pegasus Knights as an example, having the house rule that they have a 90 degree charge arc from the champion model is worth having, as this can be applied to a number of units. If the unit doesn't have a Champion (Warhawks don't require one to be there) then one model is nominated as the 'Arc' and everyone is happy. Small tweak, unilateral difference!

And going to your local store is very worthwhile to source new gamers. Keeps things fresh for your group to have a bit of new blood once in a while.

The game is afoot
02-06-2007, 17:02
It's the Table top Miniature Wargaming Hobby.
It's not company specific.
It's not system specific.
It's not manufacturer specific.
It's not brand specific.

It's your hobby and it's table top miniature wargaming.

Norminator
02-06-2007, 17:28
I think thought that the point is Games Workshop aren't claiming to be all that there is to table top wargaming, miniature painting or miniature mdoelling. Those themselves are facets of what is said to be the Gamesworkshop hobby; a hobby that also includes the novels set in 40k/fantasy universes (as well as the people, like myself, who enjoy writing fan fiction), the general discussion of the background (ranging from 'Culd Tzeentch pnz0r Kh0rne?!1!' to 'Could it be argued that Khaine is an aspect of Khorne, or vice versa?') and even playing games such as Mark of Chaos and Dawn of War, as well as converting models, painting them and gaming with them. When Games Workshop refer to the 'Games Workshop hobby' I don't think that they are trying to monopolise wargaming as a whole; they are infact referring to hobby activities that take place in reference to their fictional settings.

In essence, what I'm trying to say is that 'the Games Workshop hobby' is not stating that any wargaming is related to Games Workshop; more that any wargaming and other hobby activites related to their created setting is.

Professor Chaos
02-06-2007, 17:30
The Term "Games Workshop Hobby" is a brand.

Nothing More.

Norminator
02-06-2007, 17:36
The Term "Games Workshop Hobby" is a brand.

Nothing More.

That's (in my opinion) the point of this thread though; it only has to be a brand if you let it be. You can go away from your Games Workshop and make it your hobby, whilst still retaining the original things that make it 'the Games Workshop Hobby'.

Professor Chaos
02-06-2007, 18:14
That's (in my opinion) the point of this thread though; it only has to be a brand if you let it be. You can go away from your Games Workshop and make it your hobby, whilst still retaining the original things that make it 'the Games Workshop Hobby'.


They want people to connect "Hobby" with "Games Workshop"

Or "Disposable Income" give to "Said Corporation".

That's my POV :) .

Norminator
02-06-2007, 18:34
They want people to connect "Hobby" with "Games Workshop"

Or "Disposable Income" give to "Said Corporation".

That's my POV :) .

I've frequently been told by staffers at various Games Workshops not to buy their hobby products, and have even been directed to other shops that sell cheaper brushes/glue/knives etc.

ExquisiteEvil
02-06-2007, 19:16
a question to you Doc...

Why do you think that there are only people whining and complaining about the 'GW Hobby'...?

Do to forums for Rackham, Privateer, Crocodile games, Thanes Games, etc etc and theres not nearly a quarter of 'complaints threads'.

Heck Id say even probably more like less than 10%.

So why i that?

Is it because the most people in the 'GW Hobby' are to use your words
'whining armchair generals' or maybe its something else....

What is it that the bove companies I mentioned do that GW doesnt. Its not JUST price.
Many have pointed out(including yourself) that warmachine or whatever is just as expensive figure for figure as GW....

So what is it Doc? What could be the major reason that GW has so many 'haters' so many people who b1tch and moan and have complaints about GW's products - yet none of their competetition have similar complaints.

Ok I'll tell you -

The other companies LISTEN to their customers - GW does not.

yep thats it. its THAT simple.

What you see here is a build up of queries, questions, constructive critisism which, like milk, having been ignored for so long has started to turn sour.

More and more complaints have built up with out being resolved and has resulted in a very large proportion of GW's fan base becoming alienated with their product.

The REASON it hasnt happened with the others - they have LISTENED to customers.

ProblemA gets brought up a few times, its gets back to those with the power to fix/answer it, they do and problemA gets fixed. No further whining/complaining etc about it. It is resolved.

That way when problemB turns up there is not still a backlog of whining from problemA also to be dealt with.

Rinse and repeat = a happy, loyal fanbase who feel like customers that are wanted.

Now GW.

ProblemA arises. People complain bitch and moan. Nothing is done, no word from GW. More people realise and encounter problemA and a backlog of complaints start to build up.
ProblemB then turns up - same thing no word from GW all the people complaining about pA are saying 'get us sorted first' -pB start complaining also, and both camps vent at GW.

Then problem C. The whining and moaning are now reaching critical levels and the next lot of people join in.

Then we finally get word from GW - the tell us that we're wrong.There are no problems because THEY are perfect.

Problems A, B and C dont exist and we all should be 'truely grateful' that they let us buy their product as its the mercedes of the gaming world.

People get pissed off, some leave, but others who have invested years of time and money into GW product have invested TOO MUCH just to cut lose. So they do the only thing they can. They complain more.

They complain in the vain hope that someone might actually listen and give them back the game they once loved. They complain in the hope that one day someone will listen and the models they have spent thousands on can be used again....(or they buy AoA and use all the minis there-but thats another post entirely...;) )

So Doc - THAT is why there is so much bitching and moaning. If GW actually listened to their customers and operated even remotely like most professional business do, then there would be CONSIDERABLY LESS moaning.

Take it as you will - I know your happy, but the sad fact is, if we're not counting the 10-12 year olds, you're in the MINORITY.

EE

KITS AND BITS
02-06-2007, 23:27
a question to you Doc...

Why do you think that there are only people whining and complaining about the 'GW Hobby'...?

Do to forums for Rackham, Privateer, Crocodile games, Thanes Games, etc etc and theres not nearly a quarter of 'complaints threads'.

Heck Id say even probably more like less than 10%.

So why i that?

Is it because the most people in the 'GW Hobby' are to use your words
'whining armchair generals' or maybe its something else....

What is it that the bove companies I mentioned do that GW doesnt. Its not JUST price.
Many have pointed out(including yourself) that warmachine or whatever is just as expensive figure for figure as GW....

So what is it Doc? What could be the major reason that GW has so many 'haters' so many people who b1tch and moan and have complaints about GW's products - yet none of their competetition have similar complaints.

Ok I'll tell you -

The other companies LISTEN to their customers - GW does not.

yep thats it. its THAT simple.

What you see here is a build up of queries, questions, constructive critisism which, like milk, having been ignored for so long has started to turn sour.

More and more complaints have built up with out being resolved and has resulted in a very large proportion of GW's fan base becoming alienated with their product.

The REASON it hasnt happened with the others - they have LISTENED to customers.

ProblemA gets brought up a few times, its gets back to those with the power to fix/answer it, they do and problemA gets fixed. No further whining/complaining etc about it. It is resolved.

That way when problemB turns up there is not still a backlog of whining from problemA also to be dealt with.

Rinse and repeat = a happy, loyal fanbase who feel like customers that are wanted.

Now GW.

ProblemA arises. People complain bitch and moan. Nothing is done, no word from GW. More people realise and encounter problemA and a backlog of complaints start to build up.
ProblemB then turns up - same thing no word from GW all the people complaining about pA are saying 'get us sorted first' -pB start complaining also, and both camps vent at GW.

Then problem C. The whining and moaning are now reaching critical levels and the next lot of people join in.

Then we finally get word from GW - the tell us that we're wrong.There are no problems because THEY are perfect.

Problems A, B and C dont exist and we all should be 'truely grateful' that they let us buy their product as its the mercedes of the gaming world.

People get pissed off, some leave, but others who have invested years of time and money into GW product have invested TOO MUCH just to cut lose. So they do the only thing they can. They complain more.

They complain in the vain hope that someone might actually listen and give them back the game they once loved. They complain in the hope that one day someone will listen and the models they have spent thousands on can be used again....(or they buy AoA and use all the minis there-but thats another post entirely...;) )

So Doc - THAT is why there is so much bitching and moaning. If GW actually listened to their customers and operated even remotely like most professional business do, then there would be CONSIDERABLY LESS moaning.

Take it as you will - I know your happy, but the sad fact is, if we're not counting the 10-12 year olds, you're in the MINORITY.

EE

hmmm you make some good points but i think they are a bit flawed ,your comment about other model producers lack of complaints on their forums ,is most likely alot less because alot less people play those games .

as for GW not listening to its customers , they are listening , they listen very intently and they have replied over and over again ,the fact is the veterans who sit in their arm chairs and whine about not being listened to are not GW customers , how many of the people moaning can say hand on heart that they have visited a GW store and bought something in the last week ? or even the last month ?or even the last year ?

GW listen to the till , just like every other retail chain, the people with a voice are those who are going into stores and buying not the ones posting moans on forums like this one .

If you had a problem with your weekly shopping at your local super market would telling your friends about it get it solved ?no ....you would hopefully go to the customer service desk and make a complaint ,how many of the people who have a genuine complaint that have posted in these forums have made a complaint to GW ?how many of you vets have been into a store and seriously kicked off about what ever you feel is wrong with the GW company ?

i have had a serious issue with GW in the past and complained and i am pleased to say that they did eventually fix the problem ,i complained about the hexaganol screwtop black paint pot lids that were useless ,they have sinces put that right and from what i gather will be moving to rubber lids as per the foundation paints which is even better !
but at the time i stopped buying the paints and used something else till they changed ,that said i hope my letter did atleast add weight to the argument that those paints were faulty and the lids caused them to dry out and in my own little way i feel i (with others ) made GW change something .

it would take a few minutes to type a letter using your pcs and a few more to slap a stamp on it and send it to lenton ,your moans would then atleast have a slight chance of getting to the people who can change something for our HOBBY,rather than wasting your keystrokes bitching to people in here :cries:

Hollopoint
02-06-2007, 23:41
You're always going to get people moaning about things on here. I just think it's funny when people try and paint other companies in such a great light. If they're so great why aren't you over at forums dedicated to their games and playing their systems? :eyebrows:

violenceha
03-06-2007, 05:11
It's me isn't it? it's mine?
Can't say I ever considered it anything but mine. My other hobbies, playing guitar and drinking, certainly aren't, so why should miniatures be any different?
Currently rolling up my new Ork army using Ere We Go and having more fun than I've had in years just rolling up and converting bionics and guns.

Osbad
03-06-2007, 14:59
What turned me off GW back in the late 1980's was the way they suddenly only started selling their own games and their own version of fantasy gaming. I was an avid WD subscriber who cancelled my first subscription at issue 100, as I liked more variety in "my hobby".

Throughout the '90's GW did nothing to interest me, and then LotR came out and suddenly GW had done something worthy of my notice! It coincided -(ish) with a general taming down of the "red period" and the general slapstick silliness that was what I really disliked about GW material up until that point.

Now I am back enjoying some of GW's output as part of what the wonderful world of figures-and-dice gaming and all is well with the world.

Zzarchov
03-06-2007, 18:51
A thought on these people talking about house rules:

The are all well and good, if you and your friends only play in an insular circle, but it is more than just tournaments who cannot rely on house rules.

In fact, tournaments are far easier to use house rules, the tournament organizer just lists them as being part of the tournament, and they are in.


The problem is for people who don't play tournaments. People who don't have the time or place to run their own hobby club in their basement, and aren't friends with anyone else who does.

So they go to the local shop and play there against whomever shows up. Meeting new people, or perhaps they themselves are new to the hobby.

the problem with unwritten rules is, you have no way to know about them until your opponent tells you that the rules are in fact different here..and they magically benefit him and harm you. Now most people will let a confusion slip the first few times till someone gets new, the problem is being unwritten rules..people are going to start retelling other club members different version of them etc etc which will cause problems.

But generally, people who play and like to meet new people, rather than being insular hermits (which is no longer me, I have passed that stage and become a hermit too) need officialdom more than tourney players.