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vonbrunel
05-06-2007, 14:40
Hey guys,
Im having some trouble fight the wood elves at my local clubwith my empire. Things are steadly improving i have managed with some help to work my way back to a minor victory to him last night from the previous massacres but im still suffering from an inability to hit, having stuff march/fly behind me where i can see them (to shoot or charge) and getting any of my own fast/special units (knights,pistoliers) shot up. A steam tank does well and i usually untouched but i would rather not use it every game (the "cant win without a steam tank" is something to be avoid - and its just boring to be repetative). Magic seems to start well but the amout you need just to overwhelm a level 1 with 2 dispells is crazy! Mortars(they dont need to role to hit as such hence their inclusion) are poor performs against wood elves (i do like mortars normally). Yesterday i used

Level 4 fire with grey wand, dispell scroll and orb of thunder

Level 2 Life with rod of power, ring of volans

Captain with icon of magnus, armour of meteoric iron

Warrior priest Doomfire ring (yes not in character i know but i needed to max on the bound items)

30 swordsmen Command

10 Handgunners

10 Handgunners

10 knights Command

Mortar

Mortar

Mortar

Steam tank

Any thoughts on suitable units would be apriecated

Note: There are usually 3 woods of small to medium size, a hill and a piece of impassible terrain (rocks).

Thansk for your time.:)

Franco
05-06-2007, 15:28
What does the WE player usually field???

E-Dog
05-06-2007, 15:32
I think huntsmen would be good, scouts,infact bring all the skirmishing units you can muster, maybe some small mobile units of knights, keep the all the handgunners. Most of all I would take two volley guns, move one forward 1st and 2nd turn, keep the second back for those units that land behind your lines. Blast the **** out of 'em is your best bet IMO.

Zapherion
05-06-2007, 15:44
id say, lose the steam tank, at least one mortar, a unit of handgunners and the level 4 wizard. Try and replace these with a unit of infantry or two (your own personal preferance), a captain on a pegusus and another unit or knights or pistolier. Also, split the 10 knights into two units of 5 as even a couple of knights can make a mess of wood elf skirmisher and your unlikely to lose many or any in combat. The key to defeating wood elves is to cram the board with losts of units and not give them room to sneak through your units. Cavalry the order of the day most definatly. As a wood elf player i know that the most annoying thing to face is heavy cavalry as arrows just bounce off them.
@E-dog, helblasters are useless against wood elves since they now have to hit to be effective and hitting the wodd elves with shooting is the hardest part. same goes for empire skirmishes. Ud just spend the entire game chasing war dancers and waywatchers around, and this is a battle your going to lose becuase they are infinetly better at it than empire huntmen

Chiron
05-06-2007, 16:06
units of 5 knights, no musician and no standard, put a champion in for an extra attack help deal with the smaller skirmish unit and gives you a bit more charge range so he has to keep to long range bowfire

vonbrunel
05-06-2007, 19:24
What does the WE player usually field???

Usually 2 units of dryads, 1 of Wardancers 2 units of wild riders (or there nearest equvilent) 2 units of standard glade guard, level 1 wizard, a great eagle riding hero, a stag riding hero, and alter kindred dude with a bow with arcane bodkins( i dont know what the bow is called but he ends up with 5 shots which ignore armour at strength 3)- this is often what troubles my knights, 8 way watchers (i find these particularly annoying!) that at least is what was fielded last night against the army i mentioned.

Franco
05-06-2007, 19:56
Usually 2 units of dryads, 1 of Wardancers 2 units of wild riders (or there nearest equvilent) 2 units of standard glade guard, level 1 wizard, a great eagle riding hero, a stag riding hero, and alter kindred dude with a bow with arcane bodkins( i dont know what the bow is called but he ends up with 5 shots which ignore armour at strength 3)- this is often what troubles my knights, 8 way watchers (i find these particularly annoying!) that at least is what was fielded last night against the army i mentioned.

Well what are the ones that are causing the most trouble??? The waywatchers??? I think you should send a few knights to fight the Glade guard. It will keep one unit of them out of action for a few turns. You will have to keep units close together. Dont let one wander off because that is when the wardancers or waywatchers come in. Try not to let him comand the board. If there is a unit to charge, charge it. But be careful if there is another unit of his near by as he will flee, then end up 2 against 1. Fast cav are good. I dont know how good knights are, but if they are good then set up a trap against him. Send him some bait which he could possibly beat in a few turns. Have some fast cav ready to charge him when he is in combat. Combat resolution is important. Make him flee and catch him up. Easier said than done.
Good luck!!!

pcgamer72
05-06-2007, 19:57
Usually 2 units of dryads, 1 of Wardancers 2 units of wild riders (or there nearest equvilent) 2 units of standard glade guard, level 1 wizard, a great eagle riding hero, a stag riding hero, and alter kindred dude with a bow with arcane bodkins( i dont know what the bow is called but he ends up with 5 shots which ignore armour at strength 3)- this is often what troubles my knights, 8 way watchers (i find these particularly annoying!) that at least is what was fielded last night against the army i mentioned.

He is using the Bow of Loren. However, what the bow does is give you the number of shots that the character has on his profile. So, I'm not sure how he is getting 5 shots, because a Noble has 3 attacks and a Lord has 4.

vonbrunel
05-06-2007, 20:00
Cheers Franco i fear luck is about right!,
I think your point about watching for units fleeing sums up part of the problem, unfortunatly fast calvalry tends not to work because their low save means that the amount of archery kicked out sees them off fairly quickly.

Zapherion
05-06-2007, 20:01
The alter kindred must be a highborn then yea?

vonbrunel
05-06-2007, 21:14
Yes mate it stops him being the general but with a great weopon as well it makes him one crazy dude!

EldarRaven
05-06-2007, 21:27
He is using the Bow of Loren. However, what the bow does is give you the number of shots that the character has on his profile. So, I'm not sure how he is getting 5 shots, because a Noble has 3 attacks and a Lord has 4.

Alters get +1 attack to there profile.

Sasha
05-06-2007, 22:28
magic missiles that don't need to roll to hit are going to punnish his way watchers and dryads or alter kindreds with magical bows. so i would hold back and make sure that for him to see you you'll be able to see him. also, surely 6 levels and bound stuff can beat 3 dice and 2 scrolls. they should only last him one turn, surely?

lots of ranks and detachments (in true empire fashion) should let you be pretty confident about beating his cavalry, just try to make sure he doesn't flank you.

also, pistoliers could be good against wild riders.

Vattendroppe
06-06-2007, 08:52
Discussed this with a friend that recently had a match against WE. With one lvl 4 and one lvl 2 in 2K you are probably superior in magic. So, what do WE like? Terrain. How does one use terrain? Lore of life. Worked as a clock accoarding to my friend, every time the WE tried to hide in woods they were kind of blasted away...

Franco
06-06-2007, 16:24
Discussed this with a friend that recently had a match against WE. With one lvl 4 and one lvl 2 in 2K you are probably superior in magic. So, what do WE like? Terrain. How does one use terrain? Lore of life. Worked as a clock accoarding to my friend, every time the WE tried to hide in woods they were kind of blasted away...

What does the lore of life do??? Move trees like tree singing???
I was going to suggest gunline tactics if you were desperate to kill him, but he has longer range than you. I forgot to look at your army list, but do you have pistoliers??? They were good against me. Get upto a unit and blast them away at close range!!!

Vattendroppe
06-06-2007, 16:38
What does the lore of life do??? Move trees like tree singing???

It takes advantage of the terrain, every unit you targets that's near a piece of terrain take extra damage. Look it up in the BRB.

vonbrunel
06-06-2007, 17:54
Tried the lore of life idea and just couldnt dish out the hurt! The spells are to passive, also it doesnt give you enough hits its D6 strength 5 if there in the woods which consideing you have to get the spell off first and can only use it once per turn even an average 3 or 4 just isnt enough - surew it may deal with the way watcher in 3 turns if your lucky but by this time the dryads are all over you and its good night!

Pistoliers sounded good to me (as did the lore of life idea) but in practice they are just to vunerable to missile fire due to the weak armour they have this combined with panic tests usually makes them a waste of the 150 points they cost for my unit.

With regards to magical strength i also though that those bound items plus 65 levels would be great but by the time you factor in the inevitable little/no use spells you get then having to actually get the spells to go off then those 3 dice and 2 scrolls you find that you dont actually see alot of usfull things from the magic phase. Sure you may get something good happen every now and then but for around 500points you need more then "now and then"

i dont mean to just put down every idea presented. however all of the above have been tried and though not all have failed misserably none have yet pulled a victory out of the bag - he is a very good player all credit to him but no one is unbeatable:)

NB : im not actually desperate to beat the guy it would just be nice for the kudos - i am really enjoying getting ther though (insidently the gun line didnt really work fortunatly iot has made me think more outside the box)

Again Thanks to everyone any more thoughts would be greatly appreciated:)

Makarion
07-06-2007, 01:42
Well, if you really, absolutely must, try this. Warning, it's cheese. And not very tasty cheese at that...

Arch lector, War Alter, Sword of Righteous Steel, Dawn Armour, VHS

Battle Wizard, lvl 2, horse, Aldred's Casket. Lore of Light
7 pistoliers, musician

Battle Wizard, lvl 2, Rod of Power, Wizard's Staff. Lore of Beasts
11 Crossbows

Battle Wizard, lvl 2, Doomfire Ring. Lore of Life, Fire or Death
11 Crossbows

25 Swordsmen, Standard
(Detachment) 9 Archers

6 Knights, Champion

6 Knights, Champion

Cannon

Cannon

(DoW) 2 Leadbelchers

(DoW) 2 Leadbelchers


This should give you a lot of shooting. Since the difficult wood elf units are generally not very well armoured but have ward saves, the crossbows are much better than handgunners - you now equal his range, and the loss of armour piercing is unlikely to come up at all.

You also have 6 levels of battlefield control magic, plus a boatload of bound spells including the one from the Altar - I suggest Guardian Light, to deal with his Fear and Terror, but you can choose anew each turn.

Anyone got suggestions on how to further uglify this?

RavenBloodwind
07-06-2007, 04:40
I've played Empire for a while (20 years!) and have recently (2 years) started playing WE frequently. I think that the key problem you're having at the moment is dealing with his shooting.

Obvious ways to address this are big units where casualties aren't really an issue or not getting shot (bear with me).

Lore of life has groovy spells to damage troops in/near woods which is fine and dandy and will certainly traumatize waywatchers and anything else he puts in a wood.

Don't forget your friend though. Howler wind. If you have Howler wind up and he does not dispel it he has NOTHING in his army that can shoot at ANYTHING you have within 12" of the caster. If he does dispel it in his turn at least he's not casting at you or using spells to augment his units (damn terror causing dryads and regenerating wardancers!)

Two wizards with lore of life are fairly likely to land #4 and a 7+ cast means even a level 1 wizard stands a fair chance of getting the minimum to cast. You'll have to time your casting well to draw out dispel dice but it's workable.

vonbrunel
07-06-2007, 09:55
hey cheers guys not sure you list is cheesey Makarion just quite different! The comba of bound item is nice though i would worry that all the low level wizards could leave you with a bunch of not very usful spell if you get a couple of bad rolls at the start - might try it sometime though as i have most of the models mentioned.

I was thinking of maxing out on the big unit Ravenbloodwind suggests so its good to see someone else thinks the same. Had never thought of using 2 lore of life though think i may try that though it will mean painting anouther wizard - currently i have one green and one red i like trhe colours to be suitable.

Cheers