PDA

View Full Version : AI "tyranids"



Deamon-forge
05-06-2007, 17:19
I was thinking the othere day if i could use some epic Nids in AI but no idea about rules/stats for them? Any help would be great

Cheers

Mozzamanx
05-06-2007, 17:37
You could easily substitute another races models, but use their stats.

For example, use Imperial rules but 'nid models.

orangesm
05-06-2007, 19:25
This was discussed a lot immediately following the release of the game. (Here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65189))

I would love to see the minis you are thinking of using, it would actually help in the rules development.

Summary - some bitterly oppose any Tyranids due to the speed at which natural creatures can fly and how fast the aircraft are supposedly going (another discussion (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65963&highlight=Aircraft+Speed+Bands) in it own right!). Some (myself included) thought that it was possible, but it would have to be cheaper than the Chaos Hell Blades for their fast flyers possibly similar to Grot Bombs in rules. But it is all speculatively... so lets see the models you were thinking about using!

Ngangata
06-06-2007, 00:58
I'd love to see Tyranids get in on the AI action myself. I don't see what the fuss is about giving nids a creature that can match a fighter. Nobody has a problem with Biological guns or living spaceships or any of the other wierd things nids have going on already.
Some food for thought.
An F-16c Fighter jet is 49ft 5in (14.8 m) and has a maximum speed of 1,320 mph(2,124 km/h). This gives us a speed/size ratio of 2.225mph/inch.
A western honey bee is .5 inch(1.3cm) and has a max speed of 15mph(24.1km/h). This gives us a speed/size ratio of 30mph/inch.
If the honey bee was to grow to the size of a F-16 but keep the same speed/size ratio it would be capible of moving at 17790mph!!
Take that nay-sayers :p


Ngangata

Tyra_Nid
06-06-2007, 01:27
The problem being that at that point in time the honey bee probably could not exist or move due to a pesky thing called 'Laws of Physics' :p

Yeah, Im one of the 'anti-Nid' group. Spaceships, fine (weightlessness). Guns, fine (vomiting living organisms, ew). But a *large* creature flying at the speed of a jet? I find that haaaard to credit. If someone could come up with a pseudo-scientific justification I would be all for it, but it would need to be credible.

Ngangata
06-06-2007, 02:11
The problem being that at that point in time the honey bee probably could not exist or move due to a pesky thing called 'Laws of Physics' :p ...If someone could come up with a pseudo-scientific justification I would be all for it, but it would need to be credible.
I accept your challenge. I'll crunch some numbers tonight and get back to you tomorrow . It was a quickly thrown together example(and a rediculous one:D ) that doesnt take into account a lot of things.
I'm fairly sure there is no law of physics preventing something that big from moving that fast. After all, jets do it all the time.:p

Ngangata

Tyra_Nid
06-06-2007, 04:12
I'm fairly sure there is no law of physics preventing something that big from moving that fast. After all, jets do it all the time.:p

No no, I was thinking more about that kind of object existing at all :p. Surely It would be too heavy to support itself? Crushed by its own weight? And the wings would be super-fragile at that size? etc.

Xisor
06-06-2007, 04:34
The problem being that at that point in time the honey bee probably could not exist or move due to a pesky thing called 'Laws of Physics' :p

http://www.ftexploring.com/askdrg/askdrgalapagos.html :p




Spaceships, fine (weightlessness). Guns, fine (vomiting living organisms, ew). But a *large* creature flying at the speed of a jet? I find that haaaard to credit. If someone could come up with a pseudo-scientific justification I would be all for it, but it would need to be credible.

Your reasoning is bad and you should feel bad. However, since you seem to be of the opinion that a justification isn't out there...

Pseudoscientific justification:
Proposal- Tyranid Genus Zippernaught is possesed of dual hollow extensible limbs in the mid-limb position for your typical tyranid. The aftlimbs mount sturdy, if flexible, wing-like appendages. The forelimbs are dual use for mounting weapon-parasites and for manipulation and ambulation.

The hollow limbs are possessed of a cunning symbiote that grows within, a symbioate who's sole motor skill is being able to rotate itself very swiftly alongside an exceedingly sophisticated balance-system with which it can commune telepathically with its counterpart(s).

End effect is that the triple-being (2 rotors and host tyranid) is fully capable of turbine-like propulsion. Utilising the rearmost limbs to provide sufficient lift and aerodynamics, this tyranid Zippernaught is fully capable of supersonic aerial motivation.

End result?

I see no reason why Tyranids couldn't be in AI. Given the speeds/acceleration/energy you need to achieve escape 'potential' from a planet, it's not unthinkable that Tyranids are actually capable of it, y'know...because they *can* do so?

Deamon-forge
06-06-2007, 10:38
Cheers for the comments, to make these i think i mite use nid bits and greenstuff

okri_the_blue
06-06-2007, 11:12
One of problems (among many) that nids face is there is no existing nid that currently fits the profile required to move fast enough to be represented in AI , just about every other craft already existed before the game came out. Forge world I’m sure could make some Waco fluff that sais “they adapt this thing that does this so they go quik” and have a nid fleet but you still have problems , that could quite easily bog what is essentially a very quick game down with unwieldy rules, does synapse exist for flyers? Would bio weapons play differently. The extra hassle isn’t justified epically when there is no fluff/ background to fill. On the issues of a big bee flying if it could still breath despite relying on water tension to do so it’s wings wouldn’t work as they rely on roughness to gain lift (unless the air was much much more viscoses the normal witch would slow it down anyway) the normal bat type wing’s on currently existing nids will give you lift but will require way to much mussel mass to propel them at any thing approaching a jets speed. Sorry for the rant (I know I drifted a bit) yes nids could be in AI but it be to much effort for very little need game and may fly in the face of GWs other fluff.

orangesm
06-06-2007, 12:59
In my opinion I think that starting with 3 Tyranid 'aircraft' might actually work.

I would have:
1) A massive bomber that is really slow, hard as nails to kill, with lots of bio-weapons at close range. (talking Manta sized creature here)
2) The 'Fighter' would be based on the Grot Bomb and carried by the above creature. They are fast, but lack the ability to continue to be fast for long periods of time.
3) The stationary Spore Cloud deployed before the game even starts, only deployed on the Tyranid players half of the table, creates 6" zones either having a weapon stat for any aircraft that enters or requires a pilot check to make it through!

Special Rules would mainly have to be created for the Spore Cloud, the other two are based on rules that already exist. Lastly there would be a 4th 'aircraft' - the Harradian which would be a transport with very few weapons.

Bruen
06-06-2007, 13:53
But a *large* creature flying at the speed of a jet? I find that haaaard to credit. If someone could come up with a pseudo-scientific justification I would be all for it, but it would need to be credible.

There is no reason why you can't build a ramjet or scramjet out of biological materials. They don't have moving parts (such as found in a jet engine) and would take you from around 300mph up to multiple mach numbers.

We already know that Tyranids can grow very strong materials so use them to form an airframe, add suitable engines and you have a plane. Use muscles to deform the airframe and you have a control system etc.

okri_the_blue
06-06-2007, 14:20
1) A massive bomber that is really slow, hard as nails to kill, with lots of bio-weapons at close range. (talking Manta sized creature here)
what happens in smaller games say less then 200pts when you cant get two planes in the air(assuming a massive bomber the size of the tau manter would be around 100pts epically if itís sending out heaps of grot bombs)? what happens in small games when you can't get one? I like the idea of numberless underlings being regenerated buy a hive ship, but is there any background on how something such as this would exist. I could see it being lighter then air but that would make it virtually stationary, in game terms and vulnerable to damage. In bigger games I could see it working but in small games it leaves a little to be desired.

Darnok
06-06-2007, 14:42
One of problems (among many) that nids face is there is no existing nid that currently fits the profile required to move fast enough to be represented in AI , just about every other craft already existed before the game came out.

So where is the problem? GW and/or FW could simply come up with new creatures. Both already did that; short examples: GW intruduced the Raveners in 3rd Ed., FW introduced Hierodule (not 100% sure about them inventing it) and the Malanthrope. They have the authority to do it. Hopefully they change their mind of "it doesn't fit" at some point in the (near) future.

okri_the_blue
06-06-2007, 14:59
yes they could come up with new creatures, but they would have to change some of the nid background to do so. also nids don’t fit in every body else fly’s an aircraft( as opposed to being and aircraft), has a personally with initiative, devotions, weakness feelings. Nids are mindless automations what would an ace bio creature be? You just wouldn’t get the feel of out thinking you opponent, your pilots using their wit, cunning and bravado to out do your opponent. yes nids could be done, no no one has come up with (from what I’ve seen) a balanced and plausible way of representing them on the table/fluff. It just seems like a lot of effort when I’d rather see dark elder or even more planes for the current races.

Bruen
06-06-2007, 16:25
yes they could come up with new creatures, but they would have to change some of the nid background to do so.

Why? Noone has ever claimed that all of the possible Tyranid creatures have already been discovered and, given the genetic tinkering that the Norn Queens do, it is entirely plausible that new creatures are being created all the time.


also nids donít fit in every body else flyís an aircraft( as opposed to being and aircraft) has a personally with initiative, devotions, weakness feelings. Nids are mindless automations what would an ace bio creature be?

Chaos uses aircraft piloted by servitors who are hardwired into their craft, how are they different?

It sounds as if you are just making up "reasons" now to justify an existing prejudice.

orangesm
06-06-2007, 16:41
I thought about how many points I think the Carrier should cost and probably over emphasized the size of the Carrier - probably more like 40-50 pts and not the 100 pts.

The Carrier/Bomber would have a limit of 6 or 8 Fighters or 'Bombs' as the additional weapons load. The Carrier would also have some point defenses and maybe a longer range biocannon.

The Fighters would be based on the Grot Bomb, possibly a little cheaper (2 points apiece) for 12 - 16 pts.

The Carrier 'becomes' the synapse creature because it is what you have to take to get everything else.

Obviously tons of work to dbe done.

asmodai_dark86
06-06-2007, 17:37
What about smaller fighters?

See your all talking about large fighters but what about having the tyranids as a swarm army? Essentially lots of creatures attacking a few planes... essentially the same as the ground battle.

And seeing as though we already have those smaller flying creatures in the fluff... (forget how it works - I like the jet-engine bug example given above)

Would this be possible in AI?

Bruen
06-06-2007, 18:15
What about smaller fighters?...
And seeing as though we already have those smaller flying creatures in the fluff...Would this be possible in AI?

I don't see wht you couldn't count a flock of Gargoyles as a low-flying, slow fighter on the assumption that they were using mob tactics. Would make great units for defending ground sites and preventing enemy troop drops.

I can certainly think of examples in fluff of flocks of Gargoyles bringing down Thunderhawks.

Mr Zephy
06-06-2007, 20:04
I'd imagine rocket propelled would be easier than that weird spinny bug. It'd get very hot very quickly. But rocket propelled: digested hydrogen, methane e.c.t., ignited: very fast Tyranid!

Hena
06-06-2007, 20:19
Few things why I don't like the idea.

Muscles just are not going to work. You cannot move, crawl, twist, turn or anything to the speeds required to create a propeller. Same thing can be said from any big bird like creature. Muscles just cannot scale to make them fast or very big. But granted, Hierophants (and Hydraphant, Harridan and Vituperator for that matter) already break that limit *shrug*.

But main reason is that it's not consistent with the idea of Tyranids. It's like Necron sprinter of Ork pasifist. Doesn't fit the profile.

Only way you could make it work is some sort of rocket like engine. But that would also have a problem of fuel. It can't have enough to last very long...

orangesm
06-06-2007, 21:08
That is why my Tyranid Fighters idea are like the Grot Bombs, they only remain in play for a 2-3 turns and then either fall to the ground or explode when they hit the target.

For the 'Carrier' it is similar to the creatures already mentioned and would be pretty slow (Max speed of 3 comparable to the Valkyrie). I think there are plenty of sci-fi type ideas that make Tyranids possible, I just think they will play very differently from anything else.

Bruen
06-06-2007, 21:12
Only way you could make it work is some sort of rocket like engine. But that would also have a problem of fuel. It can't have enough to last very long...

Remember that we are talking about warp-capable intergalactic travellers here, I hardly think that fuel or crude rockets are going to be issues.

In fact, as far as I know, the Tyranid is the only race that has demonstrated the ability for intergalictic travel at all.

Darnok
06-06-2007, 23:19
But main reason is that it's not consistent with the idea of Tyranids.

Why not? Tyranids are adapting to any challenge they meet, being able to operate everywhere - be it deep space or the underground. So how come that they are quite bad flyers? There is a strategical use for air attack fighters, so sooner or later the Hive Mind will adopt into that niche. In fact I think it is much more inconsistent with the idea of Tyranids that they have no air fighters at all.

Tyra_Nid
07-06-2007, 01:49
Wow, I didnt realise people would get so worked up about this issue....

okri_the_blue
07-06-2007, 03:13
Why? Noone has ever claimed that all of the possible Tyranid creatures have already been discovered and, given the genetic tinkering that the Norn Queens do, it is entirely plausible that new creatures are being created all the time.

The nid's adapt not through scientific research but through stealing bio matter and adapting it to fit their needs, since there are no bio fighters, bio scram/ram jetís or biological fuel burning rockets this adaptation seems beyond them, as it would require science research theoretical understanding and a completely new organism to do it. The hive mind finds a job that needís to be filed, looks at the closest thing to doing that job and adapts it if need be it takes some element it has from somewhere else and adds it, it donít come up with something completely new like a bio scram jet.



Chaos uses aircraft piloted by servitors who are hardwired into their craft, how are they different?.

Chaos servitors are demonically possessed, and thus have demonic cunning, hatred malice ect in short a personality which the nids lack.



It sounds as if you are just making up "reasons" now to justify an existing prejudice.

well the "reasons" were already there, they simply donít fit in my mind and seem to miss the point of the game. Having said that though I am warming to orangesm's idea of a Carrier you have to destroy the source much like the synapse in 40k, it seems niddy would require a lot of work and isnít completely justified though.

Tyra_Nid this is one of the big issues of our time and needs to be discussed over and over again:D

orangesm
07-06-2007, 03:15
Oh come on Tyra_nid like I said (end sarcasm) it was discussed when AeroImp came out. Necron aircraft while not as heated had a similar but shorter discussion. I think there is a place for Tyranid aircraft and may work on rules in the near future.

I try to come up with solutions that fit the flavor of the background, even if there is little evidence for there necessarily being in the background. I think the natural worlds 'example' of a jet is the squid. For rocket propelled creatures I would reference Tremors 3 and its Ass-Blasters, just cause it does not exist in real life does not mean that the concept does not exist some where in fiction. Since Tyranids are intergalactic creatures I can see there being a jet propelled creature on a gas gaint somewhere in all the galaxies, so the genetic code is there and may prove useful to the Hive Mind on occasion.

Iracundus
07-06-2007, 12:33
There are no living spacecraft in real life that we know of, yet lo and behold the Tyranids not only have huge hiveships and starship scale weaponry but also space fighters in BFG so within the 40K universe it is quite possible and even likely the Tyranids will find some means for air power, even if it isn't necessarily a straight copycat jet fighter. Again sounds like anti-Tyranid prejudice coming first and then scrambling for reasons to justify it.

malika
07-06-2007, 13:14
You have brick shaped aircraft, lumps of metal with big guns on it, more flying bricks and some of the worst aerodynamic designs out there. These are totally fine and acceptable, but a living creature flying as fast as a fighter craft cant be? :rolleyes:

kris.sherriff
07-06-2007, 14:13
My main problem with nid's in AI is two fold.
1. They have no reason to evolve a jet equivalent as their methods of flooding the air with spores works well.
2. The said method of flooding the air with spores and such like dose not lend its self to AI very well.

orangesm your ideas have developed since the first discussion and do sound interesting. Have you play tested them yet?
I think you will find it very difficult to balance them correctly as until you launch your 'nid' bombs you are going to have a very low number of aircraft alowwing your opponent to out monover you especialy in any of the senarios where you have less points.
As I said I am against the nids in AI but your idea intrests me so if you need a hand playtesting I would happily give it a go.

orangesm
07-06-2007, 16:28
I have not even developed the rules for the creatures yet, but with the interest it is getting I will have to come up with some before too long. At this point it was more of open brainstorming and would love to hear other's ideas concerning the Tyranids. In 40k players can take whole Tyranid forces that are winged from the Hive Tyrant, to the Warriors, down to the Gargoyles (a Gaunt type I think). Right now in Epic the Spore Cloud is the developing AA unit.

asmodai_dark86
07-06-2007, 16:42
Alright what about an airbase tyranid?

See aircraft as I see it have three roles:
1) Bomb enemy targets
2) Destroy enemy bombers
3) Transport troops.

Now 3 is irrelevant as most nid creatures are fast moving, or need to move as a group, and those that do need to drop from the skys tend to have wings.

So that leaves one and two. Now much of the contention I see comes in the form of 1. Thats understandable as nids are much happier using heavy artillary (as seen in epic) and weight of numbers although some slow flying beast would probably be acceptable if difficult to use.

2 however seems the main point, as having no way of defending from air attacks is madness.

So how about a land based creature that acts as the synapse for them (thus removing the 'which bugs in control' factor), is fairly tough to kill, and spits out swarms of creatures like gargoyles designed to overwhelm incoming aircraft?

Now I dont own AI so is there a morale thing? I was thinking maybe once the synapse creature is killed each unit takes a morale check or disperses in panic

Xisor
07-06-2007, 16:48
My main problem with nid's in AI is two fold.
1. They have no reason to evolve a jet equivalent as their methods of flooding the air with spores works well.
Why bother outputting gaunts, warriors, gargoyles, harridans, carnifices etc when some rippers, spores and a heirodule work well enough? Why not, indeed, use an army consisting soley of flying hive tyrants and rippers? I mean, really? If you were the hivemind, why not...?



2. The said method of flooding the air with spores and such like dose not lend its self to AI very well.
Proposal: There exists situations where the Hivemind finds that its spore clouds are insufficient to adequately meet its needs. It makes something adequate with the genetic material available.



I think you will find it very difficult to balance them correctly
QFT. I think it goes without saying, however, that almost everything except the first two airforces produced would be difficult to balance correctly. It's no suprise that a new one would be very difficult.

bertcom1
07-06-2007, 17:51
Zeppelins and pulse jets are I think feasible for biological processes.

Zeppelins propelled by flapping, lift by buoyancy. Possibility of expelling gas to provide major thrust.

Pulse Jets are very simple engines, and I think they might be feasible for small Tyranid creatures.

Sure they would have short range and fairly low speed, but enough that they would not be effectively immobile.

Using the stomach and digestive tract as the combustion chamber and thruster, with an oversized mouth and oesaphagus as air intake, I think a Tyranid pulse jet creature is quite possible.

Fuel is a special digestive fluid that autoignites on air contact.

I drew a quick diagram.

These creatures would be fairly small, and I haven't put any armament on them, but I think it is sufficient to act as a basis for further development.

orangesm
07-06-2007, 18:07
Now 3 is irrelevant as most nid creatures are fast moving, or need to move as a group, and those that do need to drop from the skys tend to have wings.

I think the opposite is true - especially since we already have the transport aircraft (there was going to even be FW mini of it!). Also Gargoyles are transported in them and we know this. So the transport is actually the one aircraft we have in the background.

I will sit down and do some work on the rules for the carrier and its drones later today.

kris.sherriff
08-06-2007, 14:40
Why bother outputting gaunts, warriors, gargoyles, harridans, carnifices etc when some rippers, spores and a heirodule work well enough? Why not, indeed, use an army consisting soley of flying hive tyrants and rippers? I mean, really? If you were the hivemind, why not...?



Proposal: There exists situations where the Hive mind finds that its spore clouds are insufficient to adequately meet its needs. It makes something adequate with the genetic material available.


QFT. I think it goes without saying, however, that almost everything except the first two airforces produced would be difficult to balance correctly. It's no suprise that a new one would be very difficult.

1. I would assume if the hive mind thought it would be beneficial to produce a force in that way it would but there must be some constraints to the numbers of said species a hive ship can produce.

2. I look forward to hearing a situation where this was the case. I would like to see what kind of creature would be evolved but I can't see any situation where this is the case. The hive minds needs being to flood the air space to hinder enemy air movements and scramble sensor information. They don't need to engage enemy aircraft in a dogfight.

3. My point about balancing was not so much the over/ under powering of the aircraft (I reserve these points for necrons) but the actual enjoyment of playing with or against them.

Darkhorse
08-06-2007, 21:08
Harridan is the obvious one, then you have gargoyles which in this scenario I think would become living ammo themselves - birdstrike style.
I like the Squat Airship style idea. Not quite sure how it would work though I remember the stories of WWI pilots going up against Zepps.
Not everything has to be supersonic, thinking along other ideas, how about a Chinese dragon type thing for an interceptor?

Merceus
08-06-2007, 22:05
If someone could come up with a pseudo-scientific justification I would be all for it, but it would need to be credible.

They use the radiation from a yellow sun to fly at super-sonic (sub-sonic?) speeds... :evilgrin:

Deamon-forge
09-06-2007, 15:13
Cheers for all the coments, all i need now is SIZE'S
......size of epic manta
......size of epic thunderhawk
......size of epic vulture
could i have sizes in "cm" please

Cheers

orangesm
09-06-2007, 23:43
Alright so I had a bunch of ideas for a Tyranid Air Force and this is the result. I have tried to use units that either already exist or that seemed agreeable to those who are against Tyranids being able to have any fast moving aircraft.

At the moment the list contains 1 List Wide Special Rule and two units with Special Rules.

I am looking for feedback and playtesters.

You can download the rules here (http://idisk.mac.com/d3x2006/Public/Tyranid%20Air%20Hive.doc).

Xisor
10-06-2007, 05:58
1. I would assume if the hive mind thought it would be beneficial to produce a force in that way it would but there must be some constraints to the numbers of said species a hive ship can produce. To assume makes an ass out of u and me, as the saying goes! Whilst it's quite likely there is a limit, why should it be in the order of tens to hundreds when, in all honesty, memory-styled-stuff can account for dozens of billions of trillions of gajillions of combinations. A couple of them might just be capable of being used for aerospace operations.





2. I look forward to hearing a situation where this was the case. I would like to see what kind of creature would be evolved but I can't see any situation where this is the case. The hive minds needs being to flood the air space to hinder enemy air movements and scramble sensor information. They don't need to engage enemy aircraft in a dogfight.

I can't draw an exact and unique example, on the very firm basis that GW has shot itself in the foot. As I illustrated previously, there are very few situations that cannot be handled by the liberal application of multiple winged hive tyrands and winged ripper swarms*. Very few, so much so I can name precisely none. If we assume that there is, in existence situations that merit the unarguable requirement of Carnifices, Zoanthropes, Termigants, Hormagaunts, Genestealers etc, then there is almost no precedent that would logically exclude the same ilk from being existant in AI.

*One can assume that spore-mine-swarms and 'spaceborne spore-clouds' are some sort of obvious relation to Winged Hive Tyrands and Winged Ripper Swarms.

That is to say: The simple variation in Nids today is somewhat nonsensical, if applying very basic restrictions. If one rejects the plausibility of aforementioned 'jetbug tyranids' or what have you, it seems rather implicit that one would similarly reject the existence of carnifices, zoanthropes and termigants.




3. My point about balancing was not so much the over/ under powering of the aircraft (I reserve these points for necrons) but the actual enjoyment of playing with or against them.

Ah, mypologies. I'd utterly failed to appreciate this first time around. Again: Apologies. This is a crucial facet, undeniably. But even then, I suspect the original counterpoints stand: That is, afterall, the purpose of playtesting, is it not?

Deamon-forge
10-06-2007, 09:23
Alright so I had a bunch of ideas for a Tyranid Air Force and this is the result. I have tried to use units that either already exist or that seemed agreeable to those who are against Tyranids being able to have any fast moving aircraft.

At the moment the list contains 1 List Wide Special Rule and two units with Special Rules.

I am looking for feedback and playtesters.

You can download the rules here (http://idisk.mac.com/d3x2006/Public/Tyranid%20Air%20Hive.doc).


I will give these rules a go once i have made some test models up.
Cheers

kris.sherriff
10-06-2007, 12:04
To assume makes an ass out of u and me, as the saying goes! Whilst it's quite likely there is a limit, why should it be in the order of tens to hundreds when, in all honesty, memory-styled-stuff can account for dozens of billions of trillions of gajillions of combinations. A couple of them might just be capable of being used for aerospace operations.

What I meant to imply was that being able to field a army comprising entirely of winged tyrants and ripper swarms in 40K and do well with said army, that you can see the flaws in this when it would come to a "real world" battle where any PDF unit in the Galaxy has access to flamers and heavy bolter's/auto cannons in vast quantities. I understand that fluff based arguments never sit well but you have to see the restrictions such a force places upon itself.



I can't draw an exact and unique example, on the very firm basis that GW has shot itself in the foot. As I illustrated previously, there are very few situations that cannot be handled by the liberal application of multiple winged hive tyrands and winged ripper swarms*. Very few, so much so I can name precisely none. If we assume that there is, in existence situations that merit the unarguable requirement of Carnifices, Zoanthropes, Termigants, Hormagaunts, Genestealers etc, then there is almost no precedent that would logically exclude the same ilk from being existant in AI.

Let me try a different angle then what is the purpose of a Nid invasion?
To feed from the planet and move on, Nids don't require the same kind of air superiority that a 'normal' race deems necessary, as long as the spore cover protects the stuff on the ground there is no reason to worry about what is going on above it as eventually the fighters will have to land where they will be in for a fun time.



*One can assume that spore-mine-swarms and 'spaceborne spore-clouds' are some sort of obvious relation to Winged Hive Tyrands and Winged Ripper Swarms.

I direct you to your very first sentence :p



That is to say: The simple variation in Nids today is somewhat nonsensical, if applying very basic restrictions. If one rejects the plausibility of aforementioned 'jetbug tyranids' or what have you, it seems rather implicit that one would similarly reject the existence of carnifices, zoanthropes and termigants.

Once you appreciate the 'real world' need for gaunts the zoanthropes and carnifex fill an obvious role in their deployment. In my view there is a definite need for gaunts as ripper swarms are not there for their offensive capabilities, they are there to eat everything so that the hive ships can digest it. For me the rippers are the molars to the gaunts incisors in the big tyranid mouth.



Ah, mypologies. I'd utterly failed to appreciate this first time around. Again: Apologies. This is a crucial facet, undeniably. But even then, I suspect the original counterpoints stand: That is, afterall, the purpose of playtesting, is it not?

Like I said the idea of using a lumbering ship with living grot bomb style ammo, interests me hence while I offered my help in play testing them as I am sure the opinion of somebody who is against Nids in AI is equally valuable compared to one who already wants to see them.

DoomedDiceThrower
10-06-2007, 14:48
What about psykers? Powers of the Hive Mind?
Aerodynamic formed Tyranids, with special brains which can generate ... something that somehow manipulates the magnetic field of a planet and allows them to fly? (I'm sorry, I'm not so imaginative about the details right now)

stormtrooper154
10-06-2007, 15:00
All this is very intriging. Id be tempted to use house rules to test tyranids. Perhaps you could fit in a Harridan but tweak its stats abit (is there a fw epic one anyway?). As for models, the BFM spore mines could be used to represent the meiotic spores that are represented in 40k.

orangesm
10-06-2007, 15:52
What about psykers? Powers of the Hive Mind?
Aerodynamic formed Tyranids, with special brains which can generate ... something that somehow manipulates the magnetic field of a planet and allows them to fly?

That is going back to 2nd Edition 40k it seems. In my opinion I see the current Tyranid genome as having very limited warp presence if any. I did not use pyschic powers for weapons because bio-whatever seems to fit better.

The only problem I see with having a creature that uses magnetic fields of planets for flight and propulsion is that instead of being rare because most of the time the Spore Clouds work fine they are rare because not every planet has a magnetic field. Mars for example has localized magnetic fields and Venus has a weak one created by interactions of solar wind and its atmosphere. Earth has a strong one because it has a spinning iron core. Mars's iron core is no longer spinning and its tectonic plates are fused. So I woud say that using magnetic fields for flight while ingenious would be hit or miss depending the planet being fought over. (assumes that planetary science is used in developing 40k worlds)

Thanks to all who are considering playtesting. I agree that having those who does not see a place for Tyranids in Aeronautica Imperialis should at least look the rules over and see if they make sense rules wise if not playtest them.

I have added the link to the rules into my sig (both here and on Airspace).

Bruen
10-06-2007, 16:09
That is going back to 2nd Edition 40k it seems. In my opinion I see the current Tyranid genome as having very limited warp presence if any.

Umm, the Shadow in the Warp is a pretty big warp presence.


The only problem I see with having a creature that uses magnetic fields of planets for flight and propulsion is that instead of being rare because most of the time the Spore Clouds work fine they are rare because not every planet has a magnetic field.

How about manipulating the gravity field than? Psychic anti-grav.

orangesm
10-06-2007, 16:19
Yes the Shadow in the Warp is a pretty big warp presence, but doesn't it sort of create an area where pyskers feel are blinded and afraid - possibly something like the nulls that are Pariahs (Culexus Assassins) only in far greater number?

Possibly pyschic anti-grav - the new Zythorape is exactly this is it not?

Bruen
10-06-2007, 16:24
Yes the Shadow in the Warp is a pretty big warp presence, but doesn't it sort of create an area where pyskers feel are blinded and afraid - possibly something like the nulls that are Pariahs (Culexus Assassins) only in far greater number?

We don't know precisely what it is, I like to think of it as a sort of psychic static put out but the hive mind concentrating its thoughts in that area.


Possibly pyschic anti-grav - the new Zythorape is exactly this is it not?

Exactly.

DoomedDiceThrower
10-06-2007, 17:20
Possibly pyschic anti-grav - the new Zythorape is exactly this is it not?

There I got my idea from.

Besides, I found Zerg Guardians, Scourges and Overlords trťs chic in Starcraft and wasn't bothered greatly how they managed the levitating, so at least optically flying bio-monsters work for me.

A propos Zerg scourges, (not knowing AI rules) what about a swarm of large, fast propelling spore-mine like creatures which hurl themselves at targets instead of bombers?

Iracundus
11-06-2007, 12:33
Has anyone tried playtesting my original first attempt at a Tyranid list from that first AI Tyranid thread?

Xisor
11-06-2007, 14:32
What I meant to imply was that being able to field a army comprising entirely of winged tyrants and ripper swarms in 40K and do well with said army, that you can see the flaws in this when it would come to a "real world" battle where any PDF unit in the Galaxy has access to flamers and heavy bolter's/auto cannons in vast quantities. I understand that fluff based arguments never sit well but you have to see the restrictions such a force places upon itself.

Quite. But even then, flamers, heavy bolters and autocannons are only going to go so far when you've a 'squad' of a dozen or two Winged Hive Tyrants bearing down on your position. There just doesn't seema need for the Gaunts when you can manage fine with, say, Warriors instead of the variation. Why have lots of gaunts when you can have less warriors to the same effect, supported by rippers whilst saving the effort needed to develop/make gaunts in the firstplace?



Let me try a different angle then what is the purpose of a Nid invasion?
To feed from the planet and move on, Nids don't require the same kind of air superiority that a 'normal' race deems necessary, as long as the spore cover protects the stuff on the ground there is no reason to worry about what is going on above it as eventually the fighters will have to land where they will be in for a fun time.

But spore cover doesn't do this. We can see this in games. In Epic, Marauder Bombers can and do get near tyranid formations and make a horrible mess. Similarly in BFG, Bombers and torpedoes can and do get close to, and strike at, even hiveships.

It is a safe proposal to assert that the Tyranids would develop a method of going tit-for-tat with this sort of thing. I mean: Why both fighting and army when you can just drop rippers on them from orbit?




I direct you to your very first sentence :p That was rather silly of me. Poor choice of words!



Once you appreciate the 'real world' need for gaunts the zoanthropes and carnifex fill an obvious role in their deployment. In my view there is a definite need for gaunts as ripper swarms are not there for their offensive capabilities, they are there to eat everything so that the hive ships can digest it. Yes, they're not used in offensive capability *because* they have gaunst. But without gaunts, winged rippers and tyrants would do fine. If they wouldn't, then it explains the need for the rest of them. But clearly nids do not do fine against airforces.



Like I said the idea of using a lumbering ship with living grot bomb style ammo, interests me hence while I offered my help in play testing them as I am sure the opinion of somebody who is against Nids in AI is equally valuable compared to one who already wants to see them.

A point to note is that opinions aren't equally valuable. "Nid AI is teh gay" whilst a valid opinion is largely useless and not very valuable. "Nids really ought not to be in AI for reason X, indication Y and support Z" is somewhat more productive! I think it's a Spanish saying: "Opinions are like arses. Everybody has one."

That said, playtesting is only really useful once a coherent framework has been thrashed through! Now, where to begin?

orangesm
11-06-2007, 15:07
Where to begin? well lets see there are multiple rules out there now. There are the ones I wrote up (see below). There is a set on Airspace by Commissaar Cmar (here (http://z8.invisionfree.com/Airspace/index.php?showtopic=176)). And there are few rules ideas for the one known model of the Harridan.

So where to begin - well kris.sheriff said that he will be playtesting the rules I wrote in the near future and so there will be some feedback there. Already have some in that the Spore Cloud should be made a Fighter to make it a no brainer since it is what should always exist.

So having a back and forth while entertaining showed that 1) talk does not always produce results and 2) something akin to progress has been made through action. So please instead of tearing apart Kris.Sheriff's statements tear apart the rules sets so that we can make them better.

Xisor - so what is the "Core" of the Tyranid Air Hive force? ;)

kris.sherriff
11-06-2007, 15:46
Quite. But even then, flamers, heavy bolters and autocannons are only going to go so far when you've a 'squad' of a dozen or two Winged Hive Tyrants bearing down on your position. There just doesn't seema need for the Gaunts when you can manage fine with, say, Warriors instead of the variation. Why have lots of gaunts when you can have less warriors to the same effect, supported by rippers whilst saving the effort needed to develop/make gaunts in the firstplace?

Seeing as I can't convince you with fluff arguments I will try it your way. I have just made two 1000 point 40k lists one including 6 Winged Hive Tyrants and 10 Winged rippers and one using imperial guard
I would put my money on my 8 plasma guns, 6 missile launchers, 8 autocannons and 50 conscripts with 5 flamers lead by independent commissar battering your army.

The need for gaunts is that they provide both killing power and numbers to the Nid army. No effort is needed to develop gaunts they already exist.



But spore cover doesn't do this. We can see this in games. In Epic, Marauder Bombers can and do get near tyranid formations and make a horrible mess. Similarly in BFG, Bombers and torpedoes can and do get close to, and strike at, even hiveships.

Your use of games mechanics to disprove my argument if flawed. The games you mention are an abstract representation of the fluff, not the other way around. All the fluff backs up my argument.


It is a safe proposal to assert that the Tyranids would develop a method of going tit-for-tat with this sort of thing. I mean: Why both fighting and army when you can just drop rippers on them from orbit?

Despite "it is a safe proposal" being a second way of assuming something. See my previous example of why dropping rippers on them wouldn't work.



That was rather silly of me. Poor choice of words!

Yes, yes it was.



Yes, they're not used in offensive capability *because* they have gaunst. But without gaunts, winged rippers and tyrants would do fine. If they wouldn't, then it explains the need for the rest of them. But clearly nids do not do fine against airforces.

I fail to see how using the argument that stuff that already exists and clearly has a use justifies making up new units that are clearly unnecessary.



A point to note is that opinions aren't equally valuable. "Nid AI is teh gay" whilst a valid opinion is largely useless and not very valuable. "Nids really ought not to be in AI for reason X, indication Y and support Z" is somewhat more productive! I think it's a Spanish saying: "Opinions are like arses. Everybody has one."

A point for you to note is that I never once gave the opinion 'Nid AI is teh gay' and that all of my opinions have been 'Nids really ought not to bi in AI for reason X, indication Y and support Z'. I am sure if you took a moment to get off your high horse and actually read my point you would find yourself agreeing with most of them at least in principle


That said, playtesting is only really useful once a coherent framework has been thrashed through! Now, where to begin?

I would suggest you begin about 2 pages back where I kindly volunteered my own time to play test something to improve it for everybody. So that hopefully if things got to plan I may even come round to wanting Nids in AI for the RIGHT reasons not just because.

kris.sherriff
12-06-2007, 00:53
Have finished my first day of playtesting the nids from Orangesm's air hive and on the whole it didn't feel as bad as I had thought. There are a few things which deffenatly need changing. I have sent him a run down of my thoughts and will hopefully have a more coherant update for you all tomorrow.

Xisor
12-06-2007, 02:05
Seeing as I can't convince you with fluff arguments I will try it your way. I have just made two 1000 point 40k lists one including 6 Winged Hive Tyrants and 10 Winged rippers and one using imperial guard
I would put my money on my 8 plasma guns, 6 missile launchers, 8 autocannons and 50 conscripts with 5 flamers lead by independent commissar battering your army. I would too. My position is utilising both fluff, game mechanics and a hypothetical application of both being gelled together.

In the fluff, supposing that gaunts don't exist, I fail to see why a hive fleet could not just swamp the enemy with flying rippers and hive tyrands. If they can do it with gaunts, why can it not be done with the above?


The need for gaunts is that they provide both killing power and numbers to the Nid army. No effort is needed to develop gaunts they already exist. My point in using only winged rippers/tyrants was that it could be done without ever having developed any of the rest of it. Supposing it *didn't* already exist. Now that it does, it's clear: they exist, you use them.



Your use of games mechanics to disprove my argument if flawed. The games you mention are an abstract representation of the fluff, not the other way around. All the fluff backs up my argument. I'll try to be clear: I'm not arguing from purely fluff or purely game mechanics. Fluff, can be used/created to both support the existance of Fighter Jet Tyranids and to be the death knell against it. Current fluff, as I said previously, just doesn't seem to explain why the Hivemind didn't min-max things and instead went with a wide menagerie of options. I might've missed something though, that I don't deny.

Your assertion that the fluff abstraction is not reversible isn't entirely accurate. The fluff is as much as an interpretation of the game mechanics as much as the game mechanics are an interpretation of the fluff. We must view both. Not necessarily equally, but it would be excessively flawed to reject on or the other.


Despite "it is a safe proposal" being a second way of assuming something. Not necessarily.


See my previous example of why dropping rippers on them wouldn't work. In game terms, yes. But looking at the pair of them: There isn't much of a reason why this shouldn't work. It is clear that the games also need to represent equal forces, but I don't recall an instance in the fluff where a tyranid force has ever really fought an 'equal' number. The closest examples would be Macragge and Iyanden, and those were both unequal until a significant other force appeared (new battlefleets in each instances, as I recall).

So, to draw the fluff equivalent of my example out further. A force of winged rippers and hive tyrants being dropped from, say, three or four hiveships against ground defences. Of course, the answer is still largely inderterminate as gaunts do exist, so it doesn't really matter. But my original point was that as the fluff requires lots of situations where Ripper/Tyrants aren't effective, it is easy enough to imagine a situation where spores might not be enough air cover. Particularly I'm imagining a hivefleet attacking a Navy fortress world/system.


I fail to see how using the argument that stuff that already exists and clearly has a use justifies making up new units that are clearly unnecessary. My argument may not have been clear previously, though I've now explained earlier in the post too. To recap: since gaunts do exist, we clearly need them. If they could be done without, then the Hivefleet wouldn't have developed them and probably stuck with my ripper/tyrant min-max shenanigan.

The point with respect to AI nids is that since we have (well, Forgeworld has)the opportunity to create them, the fluff can be used to support their existance. Imagining that I had a list in hand documenting zippy-fast airbugs, it would therefore be quite reasonable to assert that the Hivefleet has a good reason for having them.


A point for you to note is that I never once gave the opinion 'Nid AI is teh gay' and that all of my opinions have been 'Nids really ought not to bi in AI for reason X, indication Y and support Z'. I am sure if you took a moment to get off your high horse and actually read my point you would find yourself agreeing with most of them at least in principle

Excuse me? High horse. Looking at the passage you are replying to here, and that I was replying to before that, you will realise we were (until now) discussing the opions of the 'general' people, ie no-one present. I certainly did not purport that that was the argument you presented. Hence I would say "a point to note", and not direct it at someone in particular eg "a point for you to note". I beg pardon if it wasn't sufficiently clear back there, but I'd similarly ask you to reread the transcript of that bit of thread before continuing with the frankly insulting line of argument involving Xisor and his high horse.


ISo that hopefully if things got to plan I may even come round to wanting Nids in AI for the RIGHT reasons not just because.

That really is not what the sentence "That said, playtesting is only really useful once a coherent framework has been thrashed through!" was getting at. Rather: which rules should we be looking at playtesting, what constitutes a playtest, have we thought through and discussed the rules before even approaching playtesting etc? It certainly is not a comment on who should be doing it, or how kind they are by offering their services.

In that regard, of course, I look forward to the details of your playtest! :)

But back onto the actual topic at hand, how to start, where to go etc


Where to begin? well lets see there are multiple rules out there now. There are the ones I wrote up (see below). There is a set on Airspace by Commissaar Cmar (here (http://z8.invisionfree.com/Airspace/index.php?showtopic=176)). And there are few rules ideas for the one known model of the Harridan. With a cursory view of the list (being only fairly familiar with the AI rules after a good few readings/seeing games, I've not actually played a game meself though), and since yours is the most developed of the two lists (themselves not seeming terribly dissimilar in intent), I'd recommend sticking with yours at present and developing the ideas with an open(er) mind (in that there is alot of other discussion on the matter!).



So having a back and forth while entertaining showed that 1) talk does not always produce results and 2) something akin to progress has been made through action. So please instead of tearing apart Kris.Sheriff's statements tear apart the rules sets so that we can make them better. Give it time. Don't be hasty, as the saying goes.


Xisor - so what is the "Core" of the Tyranid Air Hive force? ;)

Frankly, the main disagreement I have with your list is on the very first page. If they exist, then I see not much reason why they should be rare when they're present. Guessing that that was just the first sighting and that until then they hadn't been seen, I suppose it's fair enough to say that they're rare in that regard. But on a larger scale, I don't see why Hags and Strixs needn't be a really fairly common 'high altitude' threat. Sure, they'd have to retroengineer them into E:A Tyranids to maintain parity, but the idea doesn't seem out of place. As you've explained them, they do make sense...except being really rare. Well, actually, realising a bit of a poor interpretation on my part, what do you intend by rare? Rarer than, say, dominatrices to your average anti-nid fighting general or (as I interpreted it) rare in terms of 'you could be a veteran of tons of nid fights and still haven't heard of them'?

The Hags, given the ubiquity of their living ammo (ie they can chase their targets), would make sensible attachments to Vituperator/Harridan landings when one (The Hivemind) expects AA cover from wherever they're to be deployed? If that's the case then, again, I don't see hags as terribly uncommon. Handy escorts to Vits and Harrys. Like the above discussion/debate/broadsides detailed, if they exist, wouldn't the Hivemind use them?

Anyhow, with regards to the list itself, I'd be quite keen to propose (at least for consideration) some form of independent 'scouting' beastie. Not quite as much of a threat as a Strix, but....well...it's still a vague idea in me noggin! In terms of a fluff explanation it could be the feaster/more accurate eyes/ears of the Hivemind that usually determines/finds out whether a Hag'll even need to be around? Not a crucial suggestion, but a little spot to consider.

orangesm
12-06-2007, 04:37
As you've explained them, they do make sense...except being really rare. Well, actually, realising a bit of a poor interpretation on my part, what do you intend by rare? Rarer than, say, dominatrices to your average anti-nid fighting general or (as I interpreted it) rare in terms of 'you could be a veteran of tons of nid fights and still haven't heard of them'?

I suppose this is more of a question of fluff. It is something that can be changed, even to including them at the Battle of Macragge by having them mistaken for Titans. Ianki III is supposed to be the first time the creatures could be studied for any length of time and identified. Fluff can be edited to be more open and the rarity of the Air Hive can be reduced.


But on a larger scale, I don't see why Hags and Strixs needn't be a really fairly common 'high altitude' threat. Sure, they'd have to retroengineer them into E:A Tyranids to maintain parity, but the idea doesn't seem out of place.

The Hags, given the ubiquity of their living ammo (ie they can chase their targets), would make sensible attachments to Vituperator/Harridan landings when one (The Hivemind) expects AA cover from wherever they're to be deployed? If that's the case then, again, I don't see hags as terribly uncommon. Handy escorts to Vits and Harrys.

This is something for the guys at Tactical-Command to decide I would say and I do not play Tyranids in Epic (and I have had very little input into the list vs the Krieg and Tallarn list). So either of us could pass the idea to whoever is working on the Tyranid list.


Anyhow, with regards to the list itself, I'd be quite keen to propose (at least for consideration) some form of independent 'scouting' beastie. Not quite as much of a threat as a Strix, but....well...it's still a vague idea in me noggin! In terms of a fluff explanation it could be the feaster/more accurate eyes/ears of the Hivemind that usually determines/finds out whether a Hag'll even need to be around? Not a crucial suggestion, but a little spot to consider.

Interesting idea - probably tie the numbers available to the Hag.

kris.sherriff
12-06-2007, 11:24
In the fluff, supposing that gaunts don't exist, I fail to see why a hive fleet could not just swamp the enemy with flying rippers and hive tyrands. If they can do it with gaunts, why can it not be done with the above?
My point in using only winged rippers/tyrants was that it could be done without ever having developed any of the rest of it. Supposing it *didn't* already exist. Now that it does, it's clear: they exist, you use them.
I'll try to be clear: I'm not arguing from purely fluff or purely game mechanics. Fluff, can be used/created to both support the existance of Fighter Jet Tyranids and to be the death knell against it. Current fluff, as I said previously, just doesn't seem to explain why the Hivemind didn't min-max things and instead went with a wide menagerie of options. I might've missed something though, that I don't deny.

A reasonable argument one which I was trying to use but in reverse I suppose. The only reason I can think of, taking it from you point of view. Is the things I said about the Hive Tyrants having to be implanted with some level of consciousness. One has to assume (I know, I know:p ) That this is more demanding than developing a new creature. I.E. Gaunts

I am quite happy to admit that nids may have evolved other airborne units, Hence the reason I was interested in Orangesm's list.
Ask your self this though, and answer truthfully.
If FW had included Nids in AI with jet fighters that were high maneuverability, lower altitude (say 7 max), Could carry the equivalent of grot bombs and had a high number of shots close in. Would you of been happy with them?
They would be an copy and past exercise from the Ork air Waghh. Play in the exact same way and feel no different to Orks.

Taking in to account that in AI now you have a robust race with lots of variate-Imperium, an agile but fragile race-Chaos, a fast,resilient and expensive race-Eldar, longer ranged/all round fire power-Tau and a lower level,short range force-Orks.
There is no room for nids in a supersonic air interceptor form. They wouldn't comfortably fill any hole in the system without feeling wrong. That and all of the fluff arguments why a Nid air interceptor is wrong:p


In game terms, yes. But looking at the pair of them: There isn't much of a reason why this shouldn't work. It is clear that the games also need to represent equal forces, but I don't recall an instance in the fluff where a tyranid force has ever really fought an 'equal' number. The closest examples would be Macragge and Iyanden, and those were both unequal until a significant other force appeared (new battlefleets in each instances, as I recall).

So, to draw the fluff equivalent of my example out further. A force of winged rippers and hive tyrants being dropped from, say, three or four hiveships against ground defences. Of course, the answer is still largely inderterminate as gaunts do exist, so it doesn't really matter. But my original point was that as the fluff requires lots of situations where Ripper/Tyrants aren't effective, it is easy enough to imagine a situation where spores might not be enough air cover. Particularly I'm imagining a hivefleet attacking a Navy fortress world/system.

Point taken, but attacking an eldar craft world is about as suicidal, air combat wise as you can get and *as far as we know* the Tyranids just took the hit and pushed on regardless.



The point with respect to AI nids is that since we have (well, Forgeworld has)the opportunity to create them, the fluff can be used to support their existance. Imagining that I had a list in hand documenting zippy-fast airbugs, it would therefore be quite reasonable to assert that the Hivefleet has a good reason for having them.

That is true.
Waits expectantly for glimpse of list.:D
See my reasons why I still think Nids will/should never have a conventional jet fighter above.



Excuse me? High horse. Looking at the passage you are replying to here, and that I was replying to before that, you will realise we were (until now) discussing the opions of the 'general' people, ie no-one present. I certainly did not purport that that was the argument you presented. Hence I would say "a point to note", and not direct it at someone in particular eg "a point for you to note". I beg pardon if it wasn't sufficiently clear back there, but I'd similarly ask you to reread the transcript of that bit of thread before continuing with the frankly insulting line of argument involving Xisor and his high horse.

I apologise. I took it as a personal attack due to it being a response to a direct quotation of a post of mine. If it was not intended that way all is forgiven and I retract my statement about said horse and replace it with lowly donkey:p In my original post which you quoted I was only trying to convey that the opinions of people who really, really, really want to see nids in A.I. no mater what the cost to the game with no thought to their execution, May not always be the best ones to trust and base said list upon. A point for you to note (sorry I just can't help my self) was that I was not trying to imply that you were of this persuasion as you have given reasonable, thought out responses to posts.



That really is not what the sentence "That said, playtesting is only really useful once a coherent framework has been thrashed through!" was getting at. Rather: which rules should we be looking at playtesting, what constitutes a playtest, have we thought through and discussed the rules before even approaching playtesting etc? It certainly is not a comment on who should be doing it, or how kind they are by offering their services.

In that regard, of course, I look forward to the details of your playtest!

All is easily forgiven in the world of the Internet. What I meant by saying that I was willing to play test the list was not apparent from my post. I remember Orangesm and myself had very differing views when A.I. was released about both Nids and speeds. As I said though the ideas that he now presents intrigued me, to such an extent that I thought maybe there is a shot that Nids could have a list that actually felt right.
By play test the list I do not mean I will blindly choose forces from the list and play a couple of games then comeback with the stamen that Nids are rubbish your list doesn't kill stuff good etc. etc.
I Have played quite a few games of A.I. now against a variate of opponents and opposition. Am in the middle of running my first A.I. campaign using the rule set from the book and am considering trying to group together people to come up with a more complex campaign system. (something for another discussion).
I down loaded the list. Read it, Talked it over with my regular opponent who I will be play testing it against (who was of the same stance as me regarding Nids in A.I.) Looked at what we thought were obvious errors with the list, How it could feel, what was essential to take etc. etc.
I then sent a message to Orangesm with some suggestions and one change we would be using.
Played a game and then discussed it after taking notes upon what we felt were issues.
(the results of which will follow)


But back onto the actual topic at hand, how to start, where to go etc

I can't think of any better way of saying it so...
What I took Orangesm's description of them being rare to mean was that the are not often seen by the imperium. Taking in to account encounters with Necrons are rare, Terminator Armour is rare. Rare in the fluff is not neccessarily rare in the game. He does go on to say that the Hag should be your main Air Hive unit.

The Air Hive list worked quite well in game tearms actually and ended up winning by 6 V.P. It took me a few turns to get used to low maneuverability as I am a Chaos player in A.I. normally. I was playing against Imperials in a combat air patrol (so your standard pick up and play game really)
He took 4 thunderbolts with Skystrikes. I took 2 hags and 1 Spore Cloud (I messaged Orangesm to say that I was changing the classification of spores from ground targets to fighters, as the feeling me and my opponent had was that they should always be there if the Nids are in town)
Personally this force felt too small to be Nids but then some Nidzilla players may disagree.
The only other thing that felt completely wrong was Spore Clouds using maneuver cards they just feel like they are moving to fast. I know that Orangesm didn't want to play around with the core mechanics too much but I felt that it was necessary with this unit. As Spore Clouds feeling right is essential to the Nid list. (In my opinion) Anyway I have sent a copy of the rules I proposed to Orangesm and we will see what he thinks. I am hoping to play a second game with some tweaks to the list tonight and if it goes how I think it will Air Hive v0.2 may be ready for use.

Xisor
12-06-2007, 14:03
A reasonable argument one which I was trying to use but in reverse I suppose. The only reason I can think of, taking it from you point of view. Is the things I said about the Hive Tyrants having to be implanted with some level of consciousness. One has to assume (I know, I know:p ) That this is more demanding than developing a new creature. I.E. Gaunts I heartily agree.


Ask your self this though, and answer trouthfully.
If FW had included Nids in AI with jet fighters that were high maneuverability, lower altitude (say 7 max), Could carry the equivalent of grot bombs and had a high number of shots close in. Would you of been happy with them?
They would be an copy and past exercise from the Ork air Waghh. Play in the exact same way and feel no different to Orks.
<snip>
They wouldn't comfortably fill any hole in the system without feeling wrong. That and all of the fluff arguments why a Nid air interceptor is wrong:p
<snip>
Waits expectantly for glimpse of list.:D
See my reasons why I still think Nids will/should never have a conventional jet fighter above.

And now I'm in agreement with you all, provisionally (but it seems a solid agreement). I still think/suspect there is room for some sort of zippy light-fighter-bug-jet (see the final proposal in my preceding post), but it isn't a major issue. As presented, the Hag-borne force seems like it could be onto the money.





I apologies. No need, just don't do it again! :p


(the results of which will follow) <baited breath>




Rare in the fluff is not nasally rare in the game. He does go on to say that the Hag should be your main Air Hive unit. An amusing mistake there with nasally rather than necessarily, but nevertheless, I do agree, and it seems Orangesm agrees too! Mypologies for jumping slightly early (even if I did realise it as I typed!)


The Air Hive list worked quite well in game tearms actually and ended up winning by 6 V.P. It took me a few turns to get used to low maneuverability as I am a Chaos player in A.I. normally. I was playing against Imperials in a combat air patrol (so your standard pick up and play game really)
He took 4 thunderbolts with Skystrikes. I took 2 hags and 1 Spore Cloud (I messaged Orangesm to say that I was changing the classification of spores from ground targets to fighters, as the feeling me and my opponent had was that they should always be there if the Nids are in town)
Personally this force felt too small to be Nids but then some Nidzilla players may disagree.

This is interesting. Nice to see that it played reasonably. An idea I had with regards to the spores was as some sort of 'everpresent' threat, that is: no models, simply 'there' across the board. So on, say, the roll of a 6+ at the start of a turn a single spore (whatever makes a balanced profile...) makes an attack against a randomly determined enemy aircraft (chance-weighting dependent upon size?). You could even purchase them (so whilst it's likely they'd be thick and fearsome, it's also possible that the Hags/Harrys/Vits are being deployed in a shifty little strategem distant from the main Hive force?), so each purchase spore cloud offers you a single 6+ roll each turn. So if you bought, say, three spore clouds you'd roll three dice, and for any get a 6 you determine an attack etc etc

This could be a more sensible 'bolt on' to the rules of the game rather than either 1- altering a core rule or 2- making the nids not feel quite right.


The only other thing that felt completely wrong was Spore Clouds using maneuver cards they just feel like they are moving to fast. I know that Orangesm didn't want to play around with the core mechanics too much but I felt that it was necessary with this unit. As Spore Clouds feeling right is essential to the Nid list. (In my opinion) The above suggestion really would represent a battle 'in clouds', almost a bona fide dangeorus terrain feature!


Anyway I have sent a copy of the rules I proposed to Orangesm and we will see what he thinks. I am hoping to play a second game with some tweaks to the list tonight and if it goes how I think it will Air Hive v0.2 may be ready for use. Smashing!

Re: Associating with the Epic Players. I'll try passing the idea on to the lot of them when we're slightly further down the line with it. I'm currently involved in (which reminds me: I need to step up contribution!) the Dark Eldar Epic List (do you see a running theme here, adding in things that many people feel have no place in Game System X, be they Demiurg, Dark Eldar or Tyranids?!), which is progressing nicely. Which reminds me, I should be looking around spotting DE stuff for AI!

Anyhow, looking at the list again, I'm alot happier with my positions towards it! One item, I think, is how important the Hag's ground attacks are, and whether they should shoud be the strength they are? I don't really have an opinion either way (be it spot on, too much or too little), but think it's a good spot to examine.

orangesm
12-06-2007, 14:20
Well I updated the list with most of the suggested changes (some rewording mainly or a slight additional tweak). In terms of playtesting I think at least initially playtesting the air to air side of the force, once these are good moving to the other two aircraft and the ground attack Hag will be easier.


One item, I think, is how important the Hag's ground attacks are, and whether they should shoud be the strength they are?

It is suppose to be a pure attack craft and not a Transport like the other two ground attack fliers allowing the Tyranid player to have something to take should the mission involve leveling a target.


Which reminds me, I should be looking around spotting DE stuff for AI!

Lets get one list at a time - for now a die hard DE player has it pretty well playing Eldar Corsairs.

kris.sherriff
12-06-2007, 14:31
This is interesting. Nice to see that it played reasonably. An idea I had with regards to the spores was as some sort of 'everpresent' threat, that is: no models, simply 'there' across the board. So on, say, the roll of a 6+ at the start of a turn a single spore (whatever makes a balanced profile...) makes an attack against a randomly determined enemy aircraft (chance-weighting dependent upon size?). You could even purchase them (so whilst it's likely they'd be thick and fearsome, it's also possible that the Hags/Harrys/Vits are being deployed in a shifty little strategem distant from the main Hive force?), so each purchase spore cloud offers you a single 6+ roll each turn. So if you bought, say, three spore clouds you'd roll three dice, and for any get a 6 you determine an attack etc etc

This could be a more sensible 'bolt on' to the rules of the game rather than either 1- altering a core rule or 2- making the nids not feel quite right.

The above suggestion really would represent a battle 'in clouds', almost a bona fide dangeorus terrain feature!

Have a read of the changes to the spore mine rules in v0.2 as I think you will like them. Also it lets them be represented with models which is always a good thing.

Xisor
12-06-2007, 14:44
Have a read of the changes to the spore mine rules in v0.2 as I think you will like them. Also it lets them be represented with models which is always a good thing.

I do indeed! Incidentally, and I think it might be somewhat pertinent, in BFG they do recommend you use popcorn to represet the spore clouds! :rolleyes: Scale is such a funny thing!

So, verdict on the list at present: Looks good! Can't spot anything off with it now. Could do with a zippy scoutbug, but that's still not really here nor there! :p

kris.sherriff
12-06-2007, 14:57
So, verdict on the list at present: Looks good! Can't spot anything off with it now. Could do with a zippy scoutbug, but that's still not really here nor there! :p

Not sure about a scoutbug if I am honest as it is a role I think the lictors fill well. Ok I am sure they strugle with high altitudes:p but the hive mind see all. Whats to say that they can't pick up "readings" from spore mines?

Xisor
12-06-2007, 15:25
a role I think the lictors fill well. Ok I am sure they strugle with high altitudes:p but the hive mind see all. Whats to say that they can't pick up "readings" from spore mines?

Well, just that! The lictor (and BFG drone) styled role is clearly a necessary facet of the Hive Mind's strategems. In the mid-atmosphere (ie not higher orbits, not feet from the ground), however, it can't really do that with just lictors and droneships. It seems a logical addition to the force in fluff terms, but as we've already discussed, it'd have to earn its place in AI proper. Indeed, it might be redundant in the game itself, but could be mentioned as a purely background aspect. Further, it could be put as a speculated or sighted 'bug', but not one which has actually be encountered in combat (it is sufficiently fast to avoid combat, but too fast to engage in combat)?

Anyhow, that's still mainly side dialogue!

orangesm
12-06-2007, 17:21
The scout may also just be plain hard to detect/catch with 'stealth' like capabilities.

New rules set version 0.2. So hopefully we will continue to update as playtesting is done. While it is awesome that Kris.Sheriff is playtesting it will be beneficial to have more playtesters (I need to find people to play with!).

Garoth
19-08-2008, 16:56
Sorry to bump up an old thread, but I wanted to comment the Tyranid Air Hive list created by orangesm and this seemed to be the best place to do it.

All I can say is:

"Damn, now I have to pick up AI too."

Because the reason I never picked up AI was the lack of Tyranids in it. Of course one can get around of this house rules and "counts as", but not if one can't come up with viable Tyranid fighter creature concepts. Without that, there is no point going further.


But after seeing this one I felt that the Hag / Strix combo is the best idea to create a Nid Fighter that I have seen so far. So good, that I felt the urge do start converting suitable models for these new unit types.

Even if I haven't ever played this game... I have read the basic rules couple of times, but thats it.


Well, that did not stop me from doing some conversions. I really wanted to make there creatures to match visually to the current GW / FW 40K range, and follow the same design rules (six limbs, bone crested heads and so on), but still come up with something new and unseen.

I did not want the Strix to be too small, as it is the main fighter for Nids, so it has to carry much of the visual appeal of Nid force. After going through my bitz box and picking up suitable parts, and some cutting, cluing and minor stuffing here is what I came up with:

Strix 1, (https://plus.google.com/photos/111232835313554523980/albums/5273363293507561905/5273363304331514322?banner=pwa&pid=5273363304331514322&oid=111232835313554523980) Strix 2, (https://plus.google.com/photos/111232835313554523980/albums/5273363293507561905/5273363310150854034?banner=pwa&pid=5273363310150854034&oid=111232835313554523980) Strix 3 (https://plus.google.com/photos/111232835313554523980/albums/5273363293507561905/5273363328084727874?banner=pwa&pid=5273363328084727874&oid=111232835313554523980).


Looks like a Tyranid fighter craft to me. I can easily imagine that thing being fast enough to catch a fighter and taking it down by exploding.

Then I tried to come up with a balloon-like Hag, where four of those fighters could fit in. I going through my (rather limited) Tyranid collection I found an assembled and painted FW Malanthrope model. I tried to imagine it without its head and rear body and it seemed to be a perfect Hag. It even had "mouth" of some kind in its body, where the Strix could come out.

After thinking through if I really want to cut my FW model in pieces, I started to convert, and here is the end result:

Hag. (https://plus.google.com/photos/111232835313554523980/albums/5273363293507561905/5273363340104559266?banner=pwa&pid=5273363340104559266&oid=111232835313554523980)

So I removed the rear section of the body, and moved the third pair of legs to next to the other legs. Then I replaced to head for something smaller and more passive (a Gaunt head seemed to fit in). Then I sculpted another "mouth" for the model, as rules stated that the Hag can launch two Strix Fighters in one turn, so I made the model match this.

These mouths can also be the weapons of the Hag, as if it does not take any Strix, it can make bio-plasma-based ground attacks. The position of the mouths is perfect for forward arc ground attacks.

The model did not seem to fast enough to warrant its Speed 3 value, to I added a propulsion system for this model too. I can be seen on this picture:

Hag propulsion (https://plus.google.com/photos/111232835313554523980/albums/5273363293507561905/5273363350009510658?banner=pwa&pid=5273363350009510658&oid=111232835313554523980)

Even if it has the same kind of propulsion system as Strix it does not have the same aerodynamics, to the limited speed seemed work even when combined with the propulsion system.


So thatís my input on the models. I would be really interested to see what kind of models others have come up for Hags and Strixes.


About the list itself, I really can't of much help at this point, as I have never played the game. But I'm thinking of ordering the rules and some models to the UK Games Day this September. If I do that and then find some opponents to play with, I can provide playtest info for this project.

But thatís if I can get the game set up here.

Some further models might also follow in couple of months...

EDIT: Fixed a link to one of the Strix pics.

Darnok
19-08-2008, 19:12
Man, that's awesome! Even though I definetely won't ever hack a Malanthrope in parts, you made me remember my own attempts at AI Nids. I think I have to get back to work with them. Well done on that front too. :D

orangesm
21-08-2008, 00:39
Thanks Garoth for the compliments and building models for the creatures I came up with. They are very close to what I pictured in my mind.

Garoth
21-08-2008, 09:17
Man, that's awesome! Even though I definetely won't ever hack a Malanthrope in parts, you made me remember my own attempts at AI Nids. I think I have to get back to work with them. Well done on that front too. :D

Well, like I said, I was looking that Malanthrope for quite some time with my modelling saw in my hand and wondoring, if I really want to do or not. The Alternative that I considered was Carnifex torso, but in the end Malanthrope won because of all the extra detail (hoses, bulbs mouth etc.) that really made it far more convincing in the scale change.

The first one was not a problem, as I considered Malanthrope to be too weedy in Apocalypse games and rarely use it in any other game. The problem is that I think that I need at least two more, and thats the point where I have to face the cost of the model.

Then again, apart from the Hags expect to build a 250 pts Air Hive out of my bitz box, so actually paying 72 pounds (+15 for bases) for the entire force does not sound unreasonable.


Thanks Garoth for the compliments and building models for the creatures I came up with. They are very close to what I pictured in my mind.

Good that I can be of some help. I re-read the armylist too I noticed couple things that were unclear to me:

1. If Strix tries to hit a nearby aircraft but rolls a miss, does it keep on going like a Grot Bomb, or is it automatically destroyed when it tries to roll? The rules for Strix do not have same passage as Grot Bombs have about going on after a miss.

2. What is the Extra Damage value for a Strix? It is 6 in the text, but 3+ in the table.

kris.sherriff
21-08-2008, 11:19
As I recall from the play test and Idea's I put forward it is removed after Detonation even if you miss everything. This is balanced out by it not giving up any VP if it detentes so as soon as you are in range blow the bad boy up ;)
The Extra Damage should be on a 6+ as a 3+ would be auto extra damage if you wounded.

Kris

Garoth
21-08-2008, 15:59
As I recall from the play test and Idea's I put forward it is removed after Detonation even if you miss everything. This is balanced out by it not giving up any VP if it detentes so as soon as you are in range blow the bad boy up ;)

Self detonated Grot Bombs do not give any Victory points, so how does it balance it out? But then again, Strix does have Firepower 2, so that might the thing that balances it, even if the Strix always "dies" and does not have as high Damage value.



The Extra Damage should be on a 6+ as a 3+ would be auto extra damage if you wounded.

Makes sense, I thought it wrong (I assumed that extra damage would be extra dice roll). So 6 it is...

Garoth
22-08-2008, 08:14
OK, here comes something more:

Hag Bio-spray statline is different from the ones of Harridans and Vituperators. Is this intentional?

If it is, perhaps it would be better to come up with a different kind name for the more powerful Hag weapon to avoid confusion.

TheGodOfNothing
04-09-2008, 08:08
Thanks Garoth for the compliments and building models for the creatures I came up with. They are very close to what I pictured in my mind.

Couple quick points. Yes Garoth, great job on those models. They look fantastic. Hats off also to OrangeSM for creating the list in general. It's very much in line with most Tyranid player train of thought. Kudos all around.

I just wanted to note on the topic of rocket propelled living creatures: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gaea-trilogy The Buzzbombs in this series have a Mothership so to speak that is much like a B-52. It feeds on fuel springs and tiny bomb and missile versions of itself are stored inside it, weaning on the fuel the mother drinks. They are then released in battle and seek out (loaded with explosive of course) the enemy in a short lived life of high speed and explosions. I figure this is an outside source to the conversation in the direction you guys were headed.

That aside I did have a question for OrangeSM. There being no AAA was a little disappointing. True most other races wouldn't be attacking Nid "encampments" but there are cases. Surely biovores, exocrines or a yet explained breed could act as a flak cannon of sorts. Also I realize 4 might be a good enough number but would 1-5 strix be that bad? Since the Hag isn't like a winged creature it doesn't need to balance them evenly like bombs or missiles right?

Well I'll be making my fleet shortly. I've already got some strix looking escort ships from my Battlefleet collection so I'll post pics in a bit.