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Cragspyder
06-06-2007, 01:40
Hey, I've just been severely whupped by Skaven. Now firstly, my opponent did admit it was a cheesy list, and secondly, I realize I didn't have the ideal list to combat him. However, I don't really see anything I could have brought that would have countered him.

Now this fellow is a pretty obvious powergamer, and it was my first time playing Skaven, so I am sure he took advantage of me in some way. However, I went through the Skaven rulebook afterwards and the vast majority of what he did seems to have been legit...

He brought:

1 Level 1 Warlock Engineer (or whatever the Skaven caster is called) with Storm Daemon (has a bound spell that does Warp Lightning) = Unknown amount of points

4 units of 20 basic Clanrats (5 points each X 80 = 400 points)

1 unit of 24 Skaven Slaves ( 2 points X 24 = 48 points)

4 Ratling Guns ( 4 x 60 points = 240 points) (60 points! Unbelievable)

10 Poisoned Wind Globadiers ( 10 x 10-12 points or something = 100-120 points)

2-3 Giant rats packs (it just looked like a big mass of single model rats and a few Skaven, I assume they were giant rat packs) = unknown points

Warp-Lightning Cannon = 100 points (this I cannot believe either)

= Judged from the points I know it looks like to be about the correct 1000 point we played.

I had:

Scar-Veteran with Sword of the Hornet (i don't tweak my list so he had this to take care of people who charged my unit)

Skink Priest (level 2) with Dispel Scroll

15 Saurus with full command

14 Saurus with full command (Scar-Vet goes here)

3 Kroxigor

3 Terradons with Brave

1 Salamander Team

That is 1001 points.

He deployed his cannon and his wizard on a hill with the slaves in front of them. The rest of the army was deployed across the board, with the Globes on the flank.

I got first turn and marched forward madly. His turn: Terradons Warp Lightninged, I didn't know he had a bound spell so I had to let Storm Daemon go, lost 3 wounds on the Terradons, and they paniked and left the board over two turns. Cannoned my Salamander and killed it, also did a wound on a Kroxigor. Paniked my Sallie Team (with attached mage) and they ran off the table over three turns. Ratlings were out of range.

My second turn I ran forward again. His turn: 1 unit of Saurus wiped out by Ratling guns and Globadiers, save my hero and champion. Kroxigor cannoned and 1 killed. 1 Ratling gun misfires on dual fours, scattering directly towards my Saurus so it worked out fine for him.

Third Turn: I move foward again. His Turn: Kroxigors Warp Lightninged and wiped out. Mauled Saurus unit destroyed (including general). Second Saurus unit down to 5 models. 1 Ratling gun misfires and doesn't shoot. Cannon misfires and shoots off the board.

Turn Four: I charge a unit of Clanrats with my 5 remaining Saurus. They lose but hold (thanks to LD 9 or whatnot). His turn he fires into combat and wiped me out.

Now, I realize, infantry block based army is not healthy versus a shooty army like this. But what else could I have brought?

Skinks: Each ratling gun is a salamander with higher strength and less chance of misfiring. Even scouting I don't think they would have lasted long. Not to mention the panic checks.

Cold One Knights: I would have had 6 or 10 at the most in a small game like this. Globes alone would have destroyed these.

Stegadon: Maybe had a chance, but I doubt it. Too easy of a target.

Now, he did do a couple iffy things:

His Skaven Wizard knew either every spell, or he was allowed to pick his spells. Is this allowable via any selection?

He was rolling fast, but I didn't see if he rolled any 1s on Warp Lightning, which would have made the Wizard take hits.

Does Warp Lightning require LOS? Because he did not have it.

And now, the whine area:

So, Skaven have better-protected, safer, cheaper Salamanders with a higher Strength and that do more hits?

And they also have the best magic missile in the game? (2d6 S 5 hits, castable on a 9???????)

And all their units have Leadership 8 or 9 for psychology tests???????

Phew. Got that out of my system. Feel free to respond or not.

I realize I could have done better (stuck the Salamander Team nearer to my General for starters, so that my Skink Priest could have gotten a Celestial Shield off, but there was just a chance of him getting that spell in the first place anyways.) But I just don't see what would have changed.

kyussinchains
06-06-2007, 07:22
when he cast warp lightning, did he roll any 1's for the number of hits? because those hit the caster, it may be powerful, but I've blown my warlocks up plenty of times using it, especially with storm daemon.

4 ratling guns in 1000 points is plain abusive, I run a maximum of 2 in 2k games, they are far from unstoppable though, magic missiles and plain old bowfire will do them in fairly early on, they should be a priority target (oh and I find they misfire around half the time, remember that when they do misfire, they get no shots off)

I'll type more later, but kudos to you for asking for advice and not just blindly saying skaven are cheesy!

fubukii
06-06-2007, 13:44
ratling guns now a days are pretty worthless since its 60pts for 1 toughness 3 wound that will die first turn to any army with missle or magic abilities

but the best way to beat skaven to to hit them hard and fast out manueverin them is the key to winning.

DesertDirge
06-06-2007, 14:24
isn't there a minus to hit the terridons when they moved?

The cannon can pretty much shoot what ever. the warlock needs LOS I think. I'd question his rolling for him.

as far as ratlings... 4 in 1000pts is crazy. but you should be able to tear him up with plowguns.

superduperkoopatrooper
06-06-2007, 17:42
While ratling guns are fairly easy to shoot from a distance it seems the other posters aren't acknowledging that your ranged weapons can't shoot from outside the range of them. This makes for a slightly tough predicament for lizardmen...

Lore of heavens is pretty good against skaven, infinite range on lightning bolts and the comet to take out weapons teams from afar. Comet will also hit lots of units as skaven armies tend to contain a lot.

Terradons should go straight for warlock engineers or the cannon but you will just have to weather the first few blasts of lightning unfortunately.

A stegadon probably is a good choice, he'll absorb lots of damage and terror could really screw up the skaven lines. He'll need cover from the cannon though, maybe chameleons or scouts to charge it? It always has to flee as a charge reaction.

Kroxigor and cold ones aren't worth it, you don't need high strength against skaven. Cold ones are too expensive and vulnerable to lightning and globadiers.

So, maybe a magic heavy list with 2 units of terradons, stegadon and skinks?

Cragspyder
06-06-2007, 19:59
Responding to Kysussinchains:

The Skaven player mentioned a rule in which the Ratling Guns were not able to be targeted for shooting if they were within 3'' of their parent clanrat unit. Not that I had much shooting to use anyways. Is this correct?

Responding to DesertDirge:

There is no longer a minus to hitting Terradons. It is only man-sized Skirmishers that get the -1 anymore. Besides, he hit me with a Warp Lightning spell, which automatically hits. Though if he did need LOS, that would be different :)

And I don't see how 10 skinks with a 12'' range can compete with an auto-hit weapon with a 15'' range, especially with the rule mentioned above that they cannot be targeted if within 3'' of the parent clanrat unit.

Responding to superdooperkoopatroopa:

Lore of Heavens is indeed wonderful :) Too bad I rolled Portent of Far (useless as none of my units made it to combat) and Celestial Shield (which doesn't protect against a Warp Lightning Cannon or Poisoned Wind Globadiers). Besides, the Skaven player was smart to panic my Salamander with attached mage anyways. I will put him with my Saurus unit next time. And I had not considered using a Scouting unit on Turn 1 to charge the cannon (though there was no appropriate place to deploy them in this game, he had 1 hill on his side and that's it.)

Assuming the Stegadon makes it to the Skaven lines through all that shooting, the Skaven units have LD 9 vs Terror, though the Ratling guns may have fled.

Thank you all for your suggestions.

vonbrunel
06-06-2007, 20:24
Though not a skaven player i have played lizardmen with my empire a few times. I found skinks with the blessing that makes them immune to panic(i think this is right)fairly frustrating as i had to kill them all to stop them shooting little darts at me! perhaps this would force the ratling guns to keep shooting which should eventually see them blow up. Its probably worth remembering at this point that a skaven shooting(or skaven in general for that matter) are one of thos armies that can sometimes be crazy deadly and others have it all go wrong and blow up perhaps this was a "crazy deadly" time!:)

I reckon a couple of skinks priests and as many ignor panic skinks as you can for a screen then bam hit them with suarus. (of course there is all the painting of skinks to do which could be a let down should things not work out Its probably going to be hard for you at 1000pts anyway dude as lizardmen are quite points heavy i believe.

Thats my thoughts anyhow take em or leave em (probably the latter):)

Cragspyder
06-06-2007, 22:41
Though not a skaven player i have played lizardmen with my empire a few times. I found skinks with the blessing that makes them immune to panic(i think this is right)fairly frustrating as i had to kill them all to stop them shooting little darts at me!

Keep in mind that your Lizardmen opponent had to have been playing a Sacred Host of Tlazcotl list in order to give Skink Skirmishers that blessing, though I agree it is an interesting option. Of course, Terradons and Salamanders in that list remain susceptible to panic.

Also, the problem with the ratling guns is not that he would panic the Skinks really, it is that he is likely to wipe out your Skink unit in a single round of shooting.

Tunnel Rat
06-06-2007, 23:10
Hi guys, first post!

I'm a Skaven player and man, that guy is a powergamer to the extreme! I usually play only one ratling gun per 1K.

BTW, did your opponent roll to see if the storm daemon stopped working? Skaven also use their ranks for leadership rolls although I find it hard to believe your opponent was needing 8-9Ld in a 1K game- that seems high if he only had that one warlock engineer. He might have cheated here. The Warp Lightning spell does need LOS. The Warp Lightning Cannon can actually see through units and forests- not hills or man-made structures like walls and buildings... I'm pretty sure that's right(99% sure :))

I usually play against a good friend of mine that plays HE and the games have been pretty close until recently. Now that weapon teams can now be targeted despite how close the parent unit is and compounded by the Lore of Heavens that usually don't use LOS, I rarely see my w-teams survive the first couple of rounds. Flames of the Phoenix hurts a lot... especially if it stays the following rounds! There's also Vauls Unmaking(HE can get the spell and a bound item with Vauls Unmaking!) that destroys magic items- say bye bye storm daemon.

Cragspyder
06-06-2007, 23:20
Hi guys, first post!

I'm a Skaven player and man, that guy is a powergamer to the extreme! I usually play only one ratling gun per 1K.

BTW, did your opponent roll to see if the storm daemon stopped working? Skaven also use their ranks for leadership rolls although I find it hard to believe your opponent was needing 8-9Ld in a 1K game- that seems high if he only had that one warlock engineer. He might have cheated here. The Warp Lightning spell does need LOS. The Warp Lightning Cannon can actually see through units and forests- not hills or man-made structures like walls and buildings... I'm pretty sure that's right(99% sure :))

I usually play against a good friend of mine that plays HE and the games have been pretty close until recently. Now that weapon teams can now be targeted despite how close the parent unit is and compounded by the Lore of Heavens that usually don't use LOS, I rarely see my w-teams survive the first couple of rounds. Flames of the Phoenix hurts a lot... especially if it stays the following rounds! There's also Vauls Unmaking(HE can get the spell and a bound item with Vauls Unmaking!) that destroys magic items- say bye bye storm daemon.

Bolded for confirmed misinformation or cheatery on my opponent's part!

Welcome to the forums, Tunnel Rat!

Clanrats have leadership 5, right? He had 20 rats in 4 ranks in each unit so that makes him LD 8 in every unit even without the General, assuming he doesn't count the first rank like is normal. Also, he only really used Storm Daemon once (in his turn 1), but no, he didn't roll to see if it died.

However, Warp Lightning did need LOS (!), though it didn't matter in this case, he could have moved into LOS and cast his spells, although in that case I might have blown my Dispel Scroll on Storm Daemon and taken him out with my Terradons!

And Ratling guns can be targeted freely now! Wonderful! If I had rolled up Forked Lightning or something he would have been sunk! Or Comet! (drool)

Thanks very much for this help! I will know what to expect next time when facing powergamer Skaven!

thepaintingmonkey
07-06-2007, 01:07
Wow, it sounds like this guy really pulled a fast one mate.
I'm adding up all the problems in my head. I suppose now you know that ratling guns can be targetted then all you need do is choose one of the other magic lores with a magic missle default spell and jobs a good one.
Also - did you know that warp ightning cannons HAVE to run if charged? That means that terrdons can see it off turn two. or even better a unit of camo skinks infiltrated could deal with it easily enough.
As far as taking down Skaven I suppose the trick is to hold back until you've taken care of the ratling guns and done some scaring. If you can get a skink unit close enough to a block (preferably at the end of the line) and kill 5 (not difficult with 20 darts) then they take a panic check. If they fail they run from the source and if you position it right then they go through their neighbour, causing a panic check. Now if the untis are placed so close together that the fleeing force cant sit between them it will move onto the next unit and so on. Literally, 5 dead skaven and an unlucky check could send a massive amount of his force off the board. This takes some thought to set up (and it would be worth checking the rules on panic again - I may be missing something somewhere!) but I think it could work.

One more thing - you say that flying skirmishers dont get the -1 to hit anymore? That sounds odd to me. Dont have my rulebook to hand but im pretty sure that they do in fact get the modifier. I don't know, maybe im really wrong, but it sounds like something that needs checking.

Anyway, hope the next game is better. And remember - if he's not a fun guy to play, just refuse to play him. He'll soon change his ways.

vonbrunel
07-06-2007, 10:12
Keep in mind that your Lizardmen opponent had to have been playing a Sacred Host of Tlazcotl list in order to give Skink Skirmishers that blessing, though I agree it is an interesting option. Of course, Terradons and Salamanders in that list remain susceptible to panic.

Also, the problem with the ratling guns is not that he would panic the Skinks really, it is that he is likely to wipe out your Skink unit in a single round of shooting.

A good point sir! I was obviously not using my helblaster against him and had therefore not considered actually wiping units out!:)

Toby
07-06-2007, 15:43
just an idea for you may not work but worth a try

give your saurus scar vet charm of the jaguar warrior and whatever but a 2+ save.
He should be able to
1. charge ratling guns before they shot.
2.take out the warplightning cannon if he gets close enough
3.he could probably take out the globadiers although i have never played skaven so im not sure
finally could he take out the giant rats?
its worth a try anyway

ZeroTwentythree
07-06-2007, 16:44
I think a lot of the inconsistancies with the rules were addressed above (LOS for WL, taking damage on 1's, free targeting of weapon teams.)

I might have missed it if someone covered the Engineer's spells, but he only gets one spell, Warp Lightning, and that's only if he buys the extra equipment needed to cast it.

Regarding the Warp Lightning Cannon, two things to keep in mind are: It is move OR fire and it must flee from all charges. As someone else pointed out, I would make this one of the first targets for the terradons. If you can work out the angle (without putting yourself in more danger), set up the charge so he's likely to flee off the table immediately (if he's near a table edge). :D

Terradons can also take down engineers and weapon teams. Throw javelins at the weapon teams, don't charge them. Remember that because they are US2 and on a cavalry base, they also don't gain the -1 to hit for being a single figure or skirmisher.

Speaking of... IIRC the terradons do still get the -1 to be hit, don't they? They are US1, correct?

The globadiers have an 8" range, generally hit on 4+ and wound on 4+. So 10 of them shouldn't do too much damage if you can get them to panic on their Ld5.

As someone else pointed out, Lore of Heavens works well against skaven.

The clanrats do get the base 5 Ld +1 per rank (max 3) as you mention. But since he took the minimum sized units (20) he will drop from 8 to 7 as soon as he takes his first casualty.

The main issue with this match up, as I see it, is that you have a small army of relatively high point troops and little missile fire.

What is the range on the salamanders?

As others have said, I'd try not moving most of your troops up until you've neutralized some of his ranged fire. Otherwise you're doing exactly what you want him to do. Besides, his ranged troops are what he's counting on to do the damage, and also represent a large concentration of points. You'll get 60 VP for wounding a single T3 ratling gun, or 100 VP by having to either kill or panic a unit of clanrats. So first, try to take out the longer ranged attacks: the WLC and the engineer. Then the ratlings, etc.

Cragspyder
07-06-2007, 18:51
Charm of the Jag is an interesting idea. However, the Ratling gun gets to stand + shoot unfortunately.

He had a unit of slaves on top of a hill, with the Warp Lightning Cannon and the Warlock Engineer behind them. So I couldn't get LOS with the Terradons until I moved them twice... However, since he actually did need LOS on Warp Lightning to cast it, he would have had to move the Engineer out... And then I could have dispelled one Warp Lightning and scrolled the other, and taken him out.

Yes, I played very stupidly in this game despite all the cheatery that occured. I should have sent my Saurus unit with the Hero in, with Celestial Shield on it, and gotten it into combat, then moved in with my other two units.

Salamanders have a 15'' range, so whoever gets to go first will win vs a Ratling Gun.

Could anyone total up the Skaven army for me? I know all the point totals from reading the book except for the Engineer and the Giant Rat pack (which may have been 2 or 3 packs, it was difficult to tell). Was he actually over points?

fubukii
07-06-2007, 20:14
you can now shoot ratling guns in 7th edition as long as you can see them with a spell theres no more unable to target them rule.

ZeroTwentythree
07-06-2007, 20:31
Your salamanders can move and fire, right? If so, you will have somewhat of an advantage, since ratling guns are move or fire.

I usually count on losing a game or two when facing new (to me) armies - not including cheating. There's usually just too much to learn. The first time I went up against Ogres, for example, my opponent was wiping out my clanrat units because he wasn't rolling to hit with his leadbelchers, and I didn't know they were not autohit weapons.

See if you can borrow someone's Skaven book and give it a read before you play this guy again. ;)

Looking at the list you gave, I add up to right around 1000 points, depending on how many rat packs and how much equipment the engineer had.

Havrik
07-06-2007, 20:55
well.. the warlock engineer is upgradeable. chances are he ditched some, but could cast spells. i'd esimate 75 plus storm daemon.. he'd be give or take 100 pts (estimate). giant rats i believe are 30 pts for every 6 rats and packmaster u get (u add on to that pack, but thgat's how u get em). pretty much for each skaven guy in the pack of that pack, add 30 points. (for instance, 4 skaven in back would make the total 120 pts for 24 rats and packmaster).

4 ratling guns is a cry for cheese, but u can kill them individually now, so just take a few sessions pot shooting them and laugh at his misfortunes. furthermore, keep an eye if he rolls doubles for the shots on his ratling guns. if he rolls, say, two three's or two six's, that's a misfire for the ratling gun (shoots a random direction, or goes boom). we already warned about the warlock engineer.

another tip is that blocks of skaven in PARTICULAR hate flank charges by US 5 of anything. LD goes down to 5 and they really lose their chances of making it thru combat res. when they bail, they run for a good while too!

Cragspyder
07-06-2007, 21:25
Thanks very much everyone for your help.

Next time I play this fellow I'll think I'll be able to do better. Not only do I know some of the capabilties of Skaven now, but I know when he's taking a little freedom with the rules :)

2 powergamer Skaven guys at my store, and then there's one girl gamer that has all her Rat Ogres' names painted on the bases :)

You rat people sure attract a variety!

fubukii
07-06-2007, 21:43
just be glad he doesnt run the horde rat list, takes alot more skills but played right def puts shame to a "SAD" list :P