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eagletsi1
06-06-2007, 17:41
Suppose I have 18 20mm bases joined by a 25 mm horse base


How many ranks do you get.

X=20mm Foot
Y=25mm Horse

XXXXY
XXXXY
XXXXX
XXXXX

I assume 3, but I'm just wondering what others say. Does the back half of the horse constitute a rank or not.

Is there a location in the BRB that states this.


Let me know,

eagletsi1

TheWarSmith
06-06-2007, 17:58
This should be in the rules forum.

I think the consensus is that he would count as "2 models" so the horses ass would fill in the first rank.

ZomboCom
06-06-2007, 22:50
According to the old 6th edition clarification, yes.

There are no 7th edition rules on the subject (except for specific units like Slann and the Screaming Bell) but it's highly recommended to use the old ruling.

Tutore
07-06-2007, 06:02
According to some rule lawyers, you get full ranks. According to other ones (Atrahasis), the last rank is incomplete. No one has the 100% sure answer.

Vattendroppe
07-06-2007, 07:19
According to some rule lawyers, you get full ranks. According to other ones (Atrahasis), the last rank is incomplete. No one has the 100% sure answer.

And that's why I think it's viable to play what looks nicest, and I don't think anyone will argue about that.

Tutore
07-06-2007, 13:09
Personally (and all my gaming group) I play that a mounted character and 8 infantry create 2 full ranks. As it was usual.

eagletsi1
07-06-2007, 13:15
Just read the BRB

Here is the Ranks Description.

Extra Rank - If a units formation is at least 5 models wide then you may claim a bonus +1 for each rank behind the first.

There is no mention of 5 models in each rank just that the Formation must be 5 wide.

So a 18 20mm spear elves joined by one Mage on a horse would gain 3 ranks.

X=20mm
Y=25mm Mage on horse

XXXXY
XXXXY
XXXXX
XXXXX

3 ranks. It's there in black and white.

eagletsi

T10
07-06-2007, 13:29
With different base sizes, this is the closest to what the rule book allows. And by "allows" I mean "provides rules for".

-T10

Atrahasis
07-06-2007, 14:06
According to some rule lawyers, you get full ranks. According to other ones (Atrahasis), the last rank is incomplete. No one has the 100% sure answer.That's hardly fair. I may be one of the few who is willing to admit the rule is broken, but naming me without properly representing my position is low.


Just read the BRB

Here is the Ranks Description.

Extra Rank - If a units formation is at least 5 models wide then you may claim a bonus +1 for each rank behind the first.

There is no mention of 5 models in each rank just that the Formation must be 5 wide.

So a 18 20mm spear elves joined by one Mage on a horse would gain 3 ranks.

X=20mm
Y=25mm Mage on horse

XXXXY
XXXXY
XXXXX
XXXXX

3 ranks. It's there in black and white.

eagletsi
Except your formation is illegal - only the last rank can have fewer models than those in front, and your second rank only has 4 models. See T10's diagram for the reason why.

Of course, this is one situation where even I won't be playing by the rules any time soon.

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2007, 14:20
Yeah the rules are a tad iffy......

They do seem to state that you need the same number of models in each rank...which does work fine for cavlary bases in infantry,as they are only one model wide.
They count as 1 model in both the ranks they are part of.

YYXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX The unit is facing <---- that way.

Thats perfectly okay as the YY model is 1 model in each rank he is part of.

YYXXX
YYXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX the unit si facing <---that way

This isnt legal at all,the first 2 ranks have only 4 models in
The rear ones each have 5 in.

For it to be legal the formation would have to look like this:

YYXXX
YYXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XX unit facing <----that way

Which gives the same number of models in each rank.

ie. the rulebook isnt written very well.

Atrahasis
07-06-2007, 14:40
Thats perfectly okay as the YY model is 1 model in each rank he is part of.Not according to the rules. According to the rules, a rank is one model deep and a file one model wide - a model cannot be part of more than one rank or file.

EvC
07-06-2007, 14:52
Why can't a model be part of more than one rank/ file, again?

Atrahasis
07-06-2007, 15:12
Why can't a model be part of more than one rank/ file, again?

Because a rank/file by definition is one model deep/wide.

Commissar Vaughn
07-06-2007, 15:17
best thing to do is when a big based monster/horsey type joins a unit instead of messing up the ranks etc tack him onto one side. I seem to recall that being mentioned in the rule book.
They aint the same width as most infantry and i think it looks better than the usual "blokes all over the shop" image

xxxxxxy
xxxxxxy
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

Atrahasis
07-06-2007, 15:19
best thing to do is when a big based monster/horsey type joins a unit instead of messing up the ranks etc tack him onto one side. I seem to recall that being mentioned in the rule book.
They aint the same width as most infantry and i think it looks better than the usual "blokes all over the shop" image

xxxxxxy
xxxxxxy
xxxxxx
xxxxxx

That is illegal as only the rear rank is permitted to contain fewer models.

DeathlessDraich
07-06-2007, 15:48
According to some rule lawyers, you get full ranks. According to other ones (Atrahasis), the last rank is incomplete. No one has the 100% sure answer.

Bravo! Funniest post of the day. Only 1 person is not laughing.:p


This should be in the rules forum.
I think the consensus is that he would count as "2 models" so the horses ass would fill in the first rank.

Not really a consensus but very few would object to an Iron-back boar in a unit of Orcs not contributing to 2 ranks simply because it simplifies game play unless **


And that's why I think it's viable to play what looks nicest, and I don't think anyone will argue about that.

**Yes except when rank bonuses are crucial to CR, then 18 infantry and 1 cavalry character should count as +2 in rank bonuses.


With different base sizes, this is the closest to what the rule book allows. And by "allows" I mean "provides rules for".
-T10

The judges have awarded this: 6,6,6,6,6 for technical expertise
and:
2,2,0,0,0 -1 for aesthetics and presentation :D


Not according to the rules. According to the rules, a rank is one model deep and a file one model wide - a model cannot be part of more than one rank or file.


A rank is explained by this super helpful rule: "horizontal lines called ranks" -

Formation limitation is given by another gem of a rule: :p
pg 6 "As far as possible, the unit always has the same number of models in each rank and where not possible, ... the last rank is ...incomplete"

The main rule book is useless in resolving this.

I think, relying on Lizardmen's Slann rules is the most playable solution.

EvC
07-06-2007, 15:59
Because a rank/file by definition is one model deep/wide.

Does it explicitly define it as so?

eagletsi1
07-06-2007, 19:45
No it does not define it, or at least I can't find that in the BRB.

eagletsi1

Chicago Slim
07-06-2007, 20:49
Because a rank/file by definition is one model deep/wide.

Can you cite any rules for this? I'm looking at BRB 6, sidebar "Forming up a unit", subheading "Ranks & Files" and don't see any text to support your claim.

Masque
07-06-2007, 21:05
If a cavalry model is in both the first and second rank of a unit of infantry, but is not in the third rank then the ranks have different numbers of models and the last rank is not the one that is short. Half a model does not equal a model.

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2007, 21:24
The rules just state you need the same number of models in each rank.
A cavalry model in an infantry unit who takes up a place in both the front and second rank is perfectly legal.

CC
I I
I I
I I
I I The unit is facing <----that way

The front rank has 5 models in it.
The rear rank has 5 models in it,it doesnt matter that the unit is only made up of 9 models in total it still generates the rank bonus for the rear rank,as both ranks have the same number of models in.

You can never have half a model,not in game at least.

Wadders
07-06-2007, 22:37
I thought there was a whole section about this in the Storm of chaos book, or a storm of chaos FAQ/Errata etc?

And it said that the larger bases count as the second rank etc thus giving the rank bonus... i will search it out and post the answer before the end of day

Tutore
08-06-2007, 05:53
That's hardly fair. I may be one of the few who is willing to admit the rule is broken, but naming me without properly representing my position is low.


Except your formation is illegal - only the last rank can have fewer models than those in front, and your second rank only has 4 models. See T10's diagram for the reason why.

Of course, this is one situation where even I won't be playing by the rules any time soon.

Excuse me then, I only wanted to say that an important forum member, as long as I remember from other threads, backs this point of view. If this isnīt the case, then I apologize.

DeathlessDraich
08-06-2007, 10:08
According to some rule lawyers, you get full ranks. According to other ones (Atrahasis), the last rank is incomplete. No one has the 100% sure answer.


Excuse me then, I only wanted to say that an important forum member, as long as I remember from other threads, backs this point of view. If this isnīt the case, then I apologize.

Nooooo. Don't spoil the joke. It was funny. Very funny.:p

Promote me to barrister, please!:p

'La tutti dolce non a poco' as Del boy would say when in Rome! :D which translates to "By golly madam that was good".
My Latin and Italian is flawless as you can see.:p

Atrahasis
08-06-2007, 12:18
Excuse me then, I only wanted to say that an important forum member, as long as I remember from other threads, backs this point of view. If this isnīt the case, then I apologize.

No offense was taken really, forget it. I was in a touchy mood.

Flattery will get you everywhere. ;)

Tutore
09-06-2007, 05:49
Nooooo. Don't spoil the joke. It was funny. Very funny.:p

Promote me to barrister, please!:p

'La tutti dolce non a poco' as Del boy would say when in Rome! :D which translates to "By golly madam that was good".
My Latin and Italian is flawless as you can see.:p

Ehm, that "italian" sentence means: "The sweet girl named Tutti is a little bit expensive".