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Lord Inquisitor
06-06-2007, 21:57
Quick and dirty this one:

Can I put a flying character with a normal unit and use his flying movement to keep up with the unit?

I'm thinking an Exalted Daemon in a unit of Mounted Daemonettes - both move 20".

theunwantedbeing
06-06-2007, 22:13
There arent any rules for flying character's joining units as far as I can find.
So it seems legal.
And he probably would use his fly movement to keep up with a unit if he joined it.

RavenBloodwind
06-06-2007, 22:35
Two entries which are partially relevant:

BRB page 69 under flyers:
"Characters can never join units of flyers, even if they ride flying creatures or are capable of flight themselves"

BRB page 72 on Characters, next to last paragraph:
"Characters mounted on flying creatures cannot join units. Characters mounted on chariots can only join units of chariots"

As you intend to use a character who can fly (not flying mount) and join a non-flying unit this should be acceptable.

ZomboCom
06-06-2007, 22:39
Not neccesarily. The character joins the unit and moves along "like an ordinary member of the unit". Since the unit is not flying I don't think he can, since he has to be moving on foot to be moving like an ordinary member of the unit.

Not to mention that flyers can't wheel, which would stop the unit from doing so too.

Atrahasis
06-06-2007, 22:55
Not to mention that flyers can't wheel, which would stop the unit from doing so too.Flyers can wheel, they just generally don't need to.

ZomboCom
06-06-2007, 23:22
No, they specifically NEVER need to wheel.

If they never need to wheel, and a situation called for a wheel, then that situation is something the flyer can never do.

Atrahasis
06-06-2007, 23:25
If flyers can't wheel then neither can characters who move like monsters. I look forward to your units moving in nothing but straight lines.

Rabban
06-06-2007, 23:52
Not neccesarily. The character joins the unit and moves along "like an ordinary member of the unit". Since the unit is not flying I don't think he can, since he has to be moving on foot to be moving like an ordinary member of the unit.

Not to mention that flyers can't wheel, which would stop the unit from doing so too.

Not sure about the wheeling, but this also suggests that the unit can't march while the character is using his flying movement as flyers may not march while flying.

ZomboCom
07-06-2007, 00:37
The character cannot use his flying movement while in a unit, since the unit is not using flying movement. He must move along "like a normal member of the unit".

Think of it this way. If the unit is marching along the ground, and he is flying high above it, in what way is he part of the unit?

RavenBloodwind
07-06-2007, 02:35
An interesting notion:
If you have two units of mounted daemonettes you could have the character leave one unit and move that unit, then the character could move to join the other unit. Just keep the 2 units within 20" of one another and your flying character can leapfrog back and forth between the units.

sds661
07-06-2007, 05:22
No, they specifically NEVER need to wheel.


At work now, so no book to quote from, but the other night I was reading this and in one spot it talked about fliers being able to "pivot" at any point within their move, but elsewhere it spoke of never needing to "wheel". These seemed contradictory to me.

I was motivated by the following thought ... Can fliers tactically wheel when charging a unit of skirmishers so as to line up the subsequent overrun move? (I'd just been butchered by Pegasus knight's who had done such a thing. I wondered later if it was legal or not. I'm still not sure.)

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-06-2007, 06:05
I was motivated by the following thought ... Can fliers tactically wheel when charging a unit of skirmishers so as to line up the subsequent overrun move? (I'd just been butchered by Pegasus knight's who had done such a thing. I wondered later if it was legal or not. I'm still not sure.)

We just recently had a long discussion about that on TWF.

Flyers charge in a straight line, so no wheeling in there.

TheWarSmith
07-06-2007, 06:06
The Daemon Prince would have to use his ground movement, as he's moving just like the unit he's with, meaning he'd use ground movement, and not fly.

Vattendroppe
07-06-2007, 07:36
Think of it this way. If the unit is marching along the ground, and he is flying high above it, in what way is he part of the unit?

Ever heard of low flight?

Festus
07-06-2007, 08:13
We just recently had a long discussion about that on TWF.

Flyers charge in a straight line, so no wheeling in there.
No wheeling, but pivoting is allowed, so pivoting in is possible. . .

...some oil to your fire, Sir? :D

Festus

DeathlessDraich
07-06-2007, 09:38
At work now, so no book to quote from, but the other night I was reading this and in one spot it talked about fliers being able to "pivot" at any point within their move, but elsewhere it spoke of never needing to "wheel". These seemed contradictory to me.

I was motivated by the following thought ... Can fliers tactically wheel when charging a unit of skirmishers so as to line up the subsequent overrun move? (I'd just been butchered by Pegasus knight's who had done such a thing. I wondered later if it was legal or not. I'm still not sure.)

1) Pivot: A move which is not explained sufficiently in the rule book.
Is pivot even movement? -ANS: only by implication

Every instance of pivoting that I can find (pivot to flee, pivoting a chariot or monster or flyer*, pivoting a warmachine) counts as 'free' movement i.e. does not use any of the movement allowance.

The flying pivot does not mention that it does not use up the movement allowance but to be consistent, this can be assumed.

2) Tactical wheel: The FAQ permits this.


Flyers charge in a straight line, so no wheeling in there.

Not as straightforward as it appears.

They can charge in a straight line.

However there are 2 sets of seemingly contradictory rules for flyers:

1) "never need to wheel ... etc they still need to see the target they want to charge".
This indicates that flyers 'do not need to wheel ' when charging - quite different from the exacting 'do not wheel'.

The word 'need' in the rules does not *prevent* flyers from wheeling. A wheel is sometimes necessary to comply with the rule below.

2) They can also 'wheel' once since flyers charging rules state "exactly like any charging unit" i.e. they must wheel if necessary to maximise models in btb. - charging rules pg 21

3) The FAQ also allows tactical wheeling. Therefore flyers may 'wheel' to change the angle of charge against skirmishers and probably warmachines.

4) Reconciling the flying pivot and flying 'wheel':
If a flyer wishes to wheel to charge, would it be treated as a pivot?

This is not stated in the rules but I think it is best treated as similar to chariots - One pivot at any point during the charge, "without reduction to movement".

sds661
07-06-2007, 12:55
We just recently had a long discussion about that on TWF.


Seems I have inadvertantly re-ignited an old debate. Must have missed it first time around, and the Search function just doesn't like me, so can anyone tell me where to find the earlier discussion?

Lord Inquisitor
07-06-2007, 16:02
So it seems the general consensus is "no." I think I'd agree with that.

But we're agreed that a character that can fly can join a unit, providing he use his ground movement?


An interesting notion:
If you have two units of mounted daemonettes you could have the character leave one unit and move that unit, then the character could move to join the other unit. Just keep the 2 units within 20" of one another and your flying character can leapfrog back and forth between the units.
Ha! I thought of the exact same thing last night. I can't see any reason this wouldn't be possible. Now... the real question is, is that too beardy a tactic to use?

Atrahasis
07-06-2007, 16:19
I don't think its beardy, but it will severely limit your movement options with the two units.

Chicago Slim
07-06-2007, 17:18
Inquisitor: I agree, a character who is able to fly, but who is not mounted on a flying monster, can join a unit (so long as that unit cannot fly). While so joined, the character must move on the ground, constrained by his Mv score.


As for how charges by flying units are handled: the relevant bit is not the flying, but the skirmishing: All flying units are skirmishers (BRB 69). When skirmishers charge, "all models within charge reach are moved individually towards the foe and arranged into a fighting line." (BRB 65) Obviously, they have to hit the facing side of the unit (BRB 65), and they have to maximize the number of models (both themselves and their target) in combat (BRB 21).

Assuming all of those conditions are met, there's no further constraint on how the skirmishers line up. Nothing indicates that skirmisher charge movement has to be straight-line, at all. So, it's neither a "tactical charge" nor a "tactical pivot", it's just moving individual models in, to form a battle line.

Rimmz
17-06-2007, 14:32
OK I think I have something interesting to add to this.

Pg 73 states that a character cannot join then leave the same unit in the same turn. However is does not say that a character cannot Leave then Join the unit. Normally I would say this is semantics but I think its important here because I think the general purpose of that rule is to not extend movement because I cannot think of any other reason a character would want to join a unit then leave it in the same turn.

So that being said lets take the OP's example. The Demon Prince is in the unit. The Deamonettes move their full movement leaving the Demon Prince behind. The Demon Prince then flies 20" to them on his movement turn rejoining the unit. I would personally have no problem with this and I think its legal however I could be wrong its happened before. :D

theunwantedbeing
17-06-2007, 15:02
Interesting......
As far as I can tell its legal....albeit strange.
I always thought that a character leaving a unit made the unit count as moving,but thats only for the purposes of shooting move-or-fire weaponry.

I reckon its legal.

Kerill
17-06-2007, 15:17
can't see why they can't use their flying move when with a unit either

Festus
17-06-2007, 15:56
The rules say that it may leve one unit and may then join another unit. The first unit is the same unit, not another one, so it is illegal, as the rules do not allow you to do so.

BRB, p.73

Festus

Atrahasis
17-06-2007, 16:09
The rules explicitly say you cannot "join and leave" a unit in the same turn. They do not say you may not "join and then leave".
If you do both with the same unit in the same turn in any order you are breaking the rules.

Festus
17-06-2007, 17:54
Grammatically unsatisfactory reasoning, read the sentence before that (right column, second paragraph):

p. 73 BRB:

A character may leave a unit and then may join a different unit in the same turn, But it may not join and leave a unit in the same turn (in this order).

It is explicitly allowed to leave a unit in order to join another unit in the same movement phase.

Festus

Atrahasis
17-06-2007, 17:59
Nonsense, read the sentence before that (right column, second paragraph):

p. 73 BRB:

A character may leave a unit and then may join a different unit in the same turn, But it may not join and leave a unit in the same turn (in this order).

It is explicitly allowed to leave a unit in order to join another unit in the same movement phase.

Festus

You might want to read my post a little more thoroughly before throwing words like "nonsense" around.

Festus
17-06-2007, 18:15
The rules explicitly say you cannot "join and leave" a unit in the same turn ...


Nonsense

I basically still stay by my word: It is not the chronological order that is of importance in this case, but the fact that a unit has to be another unit.

A character still can leave and join *a unit* in the same turn, where *a* is an indefinite article in the English language. This is explicitly alloowed. The character my just not leave *the same* unit in the same turn.

Well, as we both quite well know, what the fact of the matter is, I take my *nonsense* back and say:

Grammaticaly unsatisfactory reasoning :D

;)

Festus

Atrahasis
17-06-2007, 18:24
Read the third sentence in my post :rolleyes:

Festus
17-06-2007, 18:39
Hi

Cool, I did already: As I said, we are on the same side of the argument...

What do you want to hear? A formal apology? :confused:



Dear Mr. Atrahasis,

I hereby revoke my formerly made post (#26 in this thread) and want to beg your pardon for me calling your previous post (#25) "Nonsense". May I apologise?

Thank you for your greatness,

always your servant, your

Festus
Festus

Atrahasis
17-06-2007, 18:47
Sorry, it just seemed like you were still saying I was wrong despite me agreeing with you, confused the hell out of me.

Festus
17-06-2007, 18:54
Hi

No problem, no offense taken, and none meant - I know that you mean the same as I did.

So. Problem solved. Next topic :)

Festus