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belgarath97
06-06-2007, 23:21
Hello, my question is about the multiple shots rule and the repeater bolt thrower. I have heard conflicting rules, even from the GW staff at my store, so here it is. If I multi-shot with my bolt thower do I take a -1 penalty for multiple shots because that is the exact wording in the RBT description, and the wording for penalties under shooting in the Big Red Book? I can not find any errata that says not to take the penalty, but it seems to be accepted by some that I don't. So what is the right way to do this?

Atrahasis
06-06-2007, 23:23
Only models with the Multiple Shots xN rule suffer the penalty. Repeater Bolt throwers do not have that rule.

ZomboCom
07-06-2007, 00:38
RBTs do not have the multiple shots special rule, they just fire several shots. No -1, no errata neccesary.

Crazy Harborc
07-06-2007, 00:44
Range is it, that's the -1 factor. (My head hurts...I DID have to think about it) I must be having an attack of the "olds" today/night/whenever.:eek:

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-06-2007, 06:11
As people have said, no penalty as you are not using the multiple shoot rule.

Vattendroppe
07-06-2007, 07:32
Which makes them six bolts a real pain in the ****.

DeathlessDraich
07-06-2007, 09:49
Another angle:

Multiple shots apply to Missile weapons.
pg 55 "Some missile weapons ... multiple shots"

Bolt throwers are War machines and not missile weapons.
Other examples of multiple war machine shots - grape shot for cannons in 6th ed, Organ gun?, Hellblaster?, Goblin Hewer?

theunwantedbeing
07-06-2007, 11:03
A bolt thrower is a missle weapon.
"bolt throwers are huge crossbows that fire spear sized missles"
"they are fired along with other missle weapons"

See bolt thrower = missle weapon.
It simply doesnt have the rule for Nx multiple shots,which is what is required to suffer a -1 penalty to hit.

DeathlessDraich
07-06-2007, 15:08
Missile weapons are listed on pg 57.
Bolt throwers are noticeably absent as are all warmachines.

Bolt throwers and all warmachines *cannot* be classified as missile weapons as this causes other conflicts in the rules.

The statement, "they are fired in the shooting phase with other missile weapons" has to be interpreted in other ways so that it will not necessarily imply that bolt throwers are missile weapons.

Atrahasis
07-06-2007, 15:14
Missile weapons are listed on pg 57.
Bolt throwers are noticeably absent as are all warmachines.So are repeater pistols, repeater crossbows, leadbelcher cannons, etc. That list is not comprehensive.


Bolt throwers and all warmachines *cannot* be classified as missile weapons as this causes other conflicts in the rules.Name one.

DeathlessDraich
07-06-2007, 15:49
Should be obvious to you. - just 'respond' :p

Atrahasis
07-06-2007, 15:51
Should be obvious to you.

Humour me. :)

enyoss
07-06-2007, 15:53
Can't you stand and fire with 'missile weapons' but not war machines? That would seem to be one conflict with the definition of the RBT as a missile weapon.

Cheers,

enyoss

Atrahasis
07-06-2007, 16:04
Can't you stand and fire with 'missile weapons' but not war machines? That would seem to be one conflict with the definition of the RBT as a missile weapon.That just means its an exception. The fact that the rule specifically state that war machines cannot stand and shoot supports the argument that they are missile weapons - if they weren't there'd be no need to say it.

DeathlessDraich
07-06-2007, 19:37
That just means its an exception.
An assumption, not stated in the rules.


The fact that the rule specifically state that war machines cannot stand and shoot supports the argument that they are missile weapons

'Possible support' at best but the rules do not specifically state they are missile weapons.
If they did there would be a rules contradiction and then it would be necessary for the war machine rules to specifically state that their inability to S&S is an exception, which it doesn't.


- if they weren't there'd be no need to say it.

Repetition of rules can be found in most rule books even bad ones. :D

T10
07-06-2007, 20:34
The repeater bolt thrower has the capability to fire six shots but does not have the Multiple Shots rule. Those shots have an additional -1 save modifier on top of their -1 save modifer for being strength 4 but the bolt thrower does not have the Armor Piercing rule. The latter is important to note with regards to certain effects such as the Lore of Life Rain Lord spell.

-T10

Palatine Katinka
08-06-2007, 00:36
If it used the "Multiple Shots x6" style rule, all 6 shots would be S6, ignore armour etc. as "Multiple Shots xn" uses the normal profile of the weapon. ;)

That would make me a very happy Elf.

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-06-2007, 05:48
Just need it to cost 50 points and we would almost be back to 4th edition then :p

WLBjork
08-06-2007, 09:01
So are repeater pistols, repeater crossbows, leadbelcher cannons, etc. That list is not comprehensive.

Atrahasis, Repeater Crossbow is 5th weapon down on left-hand column :p

peteratwar
08-06-2007, 10:06
This is largely irrelevant.

The HE RBT is NOT a multi-shot weapon which attracts the -1. This must be one of the most FAQ's which come up. IT DOES NOT SUFFER -1 FOR ITS MULTI-SHOT or more properly VOLLEY fire.

All the FAQ's since 6th ed have made this clear

knightwire
08-06-2007, 13:56
Missile weapons are listed on pg 57.
Bolt throwers are noticeably absent as are all warmachines.

Bolt throwers and all warmachines *cannot* be classified as missile weapons as this causes other conflicts in the rules.

The statement, "they are fired in the shooting phase with other missile weapons" has to be interpreted in other ways so that it will not necessarily imply that bolt throwers are missile weapons.

:rolleyes:

I think you are applying the classification of missile weapons a little too strictly. RBTs are warmachines yes, but there are many types... this one just happens to use a giant bow to shoot giant missiles. Given the fact that the crew uses their own BS skill to determine it's effectiveness I think we can be quite safe to call it a missile weapon.

(Anybody else re-roll RBT misses when using Curse or Arrow attraction? I do.)

EvC
08-06-2007, 15:42
Okay okay, they're missile weapons of a sort. But they don't suffer the -1 to shoot, I hope we all agree!

(The Hellblaster rolls to hit using BS, doesn't it? Wonder if any Empire players take another -1 to hit when firing more than one shot from it...)

belgarath97
08-06-2007, 18:25
This is largely irrelevant.

The HE RBT is NOT a multi-shot weapon which attracts the -1. This must be one of the most FAQ's which come up. IT DOES NOT SUFFER -1 FOR ITS MULTI-SHOT or more properly VOLLEY fire.

All the FAQ's since 6th ed have made this clear

Except I can't find it in the faq anywhere...:rolleyes:

belgarath97
08-06-2007, 18:28
So if someone said I did need to take the penalty, what would I point to, to prove that I do not need to take the penalty?

knightwire
08-06-2007, 18:43
So if someone said I did need to take the penalty, what would I point to, to prove that I do not need to take the penalty?

It does not have the 'Multiple Shots' rule listed under it's Special Rules section in the Army List.

DeathlessDraich
08-06-2007, 20:01
:rolleyes:

I think you are applying the classification of missile weapons a little too strictly. RBTs are warmachines yes, but there are many types... this one just happens to use a giant bow to shoot giant missiles. Given the fact that the crew uses their own BS skill to determine it's effectiveness I think we can be quite safe to call it a missile weapon.


1) Words in ordinary usage may have different meanings in Warhammer.
It is the Warhammer meaning that is pertinent to this forum and any discussion on Warhammer rules.
Even though the Warhammer meaning may detract from normal usage, it is the Warhammer meaning that is under scrutiny here.

2) Whether warmachines shoot missiles or not will not make it a missile weapon until the rule book says so.

3) The rule book classifies missile weapons in the chapter on Weapons and it is a necessary classification if you consider other rules. One already mentioned in posts you've missed, is Stand and shoot.

theunwantedbeing
08-06-2007, 20:08
You only get to use missle weapons and guess range weapons in the shooting phase,according to the rules for shooting.

page 25.
Doesnt say anywhere that you get to fire things that arent missle weapons or guess range weapons.

A bolt thrower is a missle weapon,plain and simple,its just not a normal missle weapon in the way that its a war machine and has lots of special rules to go with it.

Yellow Commissar
09-06-2007, 01:42
So if someone said I did need to take the penalty, what would I point to, to prove that I do not need to take the penalty?


There's not much to point to. The Volley rule even uses the term 'multiple shots' twice. :rolleyes:

You do have a couple things to point to, but don't expect your opponent to agree with you.

One is that the rule is not written as 6x multiple shots. (Palatine Kalinka has an excellent point about the multiple shots rule using the normal profile of the weopon, but the profile under the Volley rule could be read as an exception to this.)

Another is that the Repeater Bolt Throwers special rule is called "Volley".

You could also try page 54 under "Weopons and Units". These weopon rules appear to apply to all models in a unit. Therefore, if the "Multiple Shots rule from this section applies, then the section applies. If the section applies to this war machine, then all the models in the unit would "carry the same weopons". Does each crew member carry a Repeater Bolt Thrower?

The Volley rule states that the RBT "is a war machine and all the rules governing war machines apply." It says nothing about the Weopons rules applying.

In fact, the best rule to point to may be the War machines rules where is says, on page 85, "Each type of war machine is fired differently, as described in its own set of rules.

Other than that, I can't find much in the rules to point to. You are going to have to hope that your opponent is open minded and agreeable. Good luck. :)

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-06-2007, 05:35
Ask them to show you where it says it use the multiple shot rule? It use it's own special rule called volley, and while it might seem similar in some ways, it doesn't give you a -1 to hit.

belgarath97
11-06-2007, 14:34
As an update to this question, I brought this up yesterday at the local shop, and they pointed out to me that it says that the volley shots are handled like bow or crossbow shots and crossbows take the penalty when they multi-shoot, I think I'm stuck using this rule until somthing official comes from GW...:cries:

peteratwar
11-06-2007, 15:43
Well, the lads at the shops mean well but I have found them to be sadly wanting in the case of knowing rules well.

The HE RBT has never been subject to the multi-shot penalty.

The HE FAQ makes this clear.

As already said the RBT is not defined as multi-shot x 6

EvC
11-06-2007, 15:54
Actually they removed that ruling from the FAQ for 7th edition, which is bloody annoying.

Crazy Harborc
12-06-2007, 02:48
A repeater bolt thrower does not shoot and reload six times. It shoots six bolts at one time at the same target (unit, monster, etc).

Atrahasis
12-06-2007, 02:58
A repeater bolt thrower does not shoot and reload six times. It shoots six bolts at one time at the same target (unit, monster, etc).

A repeater pistol has 3 barrels, what's to say it "shoots and reloads three times".

Note that I don't think the -1 applies to RBTs, I just don't think using silly arguments helps anyone.

DeathlessDraich
12-06-2007, 14:20
they pointed out to me that it says that the volley shots are handled like bow or crossbow shots and crossbows take the penalty when they multi-shoot, I think I'm stuck using this rule until somthing official comes from GW...:cries:

No, you're not stuck.

Read the Reaper Bolt rules again, in context:

1) It states it is a warmachine. Multiple shots come under the Weapons section and applies to missile weapons - pg 55 "Some missile weapons etc".
If you think this is too weak, read on.

2) DE pg 9 "If using the multiple shots option ... shoots six bolts in each Shooting phase ... worked out exactly like shots *from bows or crossbows* using the BS of the crew".

"Bows or crossbows" and not "repeater crossbows"! :p
N.B. there is no proviso - *exactly* like bows or crossbows.

Therefore there is no (-1) penalty for hits since *bows and crossbows* can never suffer the (-1) to hit penalty for repeating. If it does it won't be called a *bow or crossbow* any more.

There will be a (-1) penalty for repeating if the rules had stated *exactly like a repeater crossbow* which it does not.
*Exactly* is the important word here.

However true to form GW introduces exceptions after using an exact word like erm ..exactly.
The exceptions are given later in the rules - S4, range 48" etc. and the penalty for repeating again is not mentioned.

EDIT: Just noticed that the original question was about HE - our sworn enemies! In that case ignore my post and you may include a (-1) penalty! :p

ZomboCom
12-06-2007, 14:36
Guys, we all agree, so can we stop arguing about the reason we're all right?

EvC
12-06-2007, 16:51
The purpose of the thread is to help people like belgarath convince others what we all know to be true. I suggest he print out DD's post and take it with him next time he plays High/ Dark Elves :D