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EldarZach
12-08-2005, 04:38
Sorry guys, I'm new to Fantasy and couldn't find this anywhere in the rulebook.

Which warmachines need LOS?

Cannons?

Bolt Throwers?

Stone Throwers? (The rulebook says stonethrowers don't need to be able to see that target, but it says, "They must be able to see the direction of the target," or something like that)

Thanks for all the help guys.

Alco Engineer
12-08-2005, 06:23
I beleive that now they all do. Stone throwes need to be able to see an enemy unit in that direction (i.e. can't see through your own guys so you can't shoot over them) and the same for imperial mortars. You can always over guess the range if you want to shoot over an opposing unit so that's why you have to be able to see them.

Bolt throwers need LOS as they fire more horizontally.

As for cannons I'm pretty sure you need LOS but you could probably over guess your initial guess if you want to shoot an enemy behind an enemy unit but your opponent might cotton onto that after a couple of turns.

I'm pretty sure that's how they work. I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong

Tarax
12-08-2005, 08:44
In the Annual 2002 there is a whole article about War Machines.

(With some other articles, it's about the best there is)

War Machines break down to:
-Stone Thrower, Screaming Skull Catapult, and others: you need to see the enemy, but you may overguess

-Flame Cannon, Warpfire Thrower: you require LoS

-Cannon, Mortar: you require LoS, but you may NOT overguess

-Non-guess range weapons (eg. Bolt Thrower, Helblaster): you require LoS

Hope this helps.

gortexgunnerson
12-08-2005, 08:51
Its yet another wonderful clarification by GW lol how do you tell / stop over guessing with guess range weapons. OK if theirs a unit right in front and you lob in 4 foot over his head it might be obvious but other then that its pretty hard to inforce

TeddyC
12-08-2005, 10:54
Yea but if youve got 2 units right next to each other and a cannon down their side then the overguess if pretty hard to judge....

if the units are 8" or so apart it would be easier to tell a deliberate misguess. However still a very up in the air description.

However as a general rule you should be able to draw a line to the target unit and say its x inches along that line.

Crazy Harborc
12-08-2005, 23:44
If my memory is correct. The line of sight words of wisdom were one of the first rulings from the key pad of Gav Thorpe, when the suits at GW moved Gav over to ruling over WHFB. I guess too many players were good at guessing ranges even when there was all kinds of terrain scattered all over the table.

Yanos
15-08-2005, 08:25
I may just be re-stating what Tarax (quite correctly) said, but the official line can be found on the UK GW site here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/commentary-war-machines/1/) :) .

Dooglebug
15-08-2005, 09:07
S*%t!

I'm familiar with the article your talking about from uk WD259. Yet in my copy it states cannons/flame cannons require no LOS. For years this has made no sense whatsoever and constantly infuriated me as my Dwarf opponent took advantage of this to hide his warmachines behind a line of warriors. I presume the article on the website is more up to date and that my article just had a typo.

Anyone else have a problem with that?

Doug

Flame
15-08-2005, 09:19
It was like that originally, but was changed in the article Yanos gives.

Cheesejoff
15-08-2005, 12:56
The WD article, I believe, used some text from an old 5th edition article. For example, the rules for Bretonnian Blessing are stated as needing a 4+ for warmachines to shoot them, whereas now it's been changed to a ward save.

Crazy Harborc
16-08-2005, 01:11
I do wonder what the basis of Gav's new rules for artillery were? Perhaps a unit in his army getting shot up?? ;)

On the bright side, it's now history and hasn't been re-clarified yet again......yet, this year. :D

Tormentor of Slaanesh
24-08-2005, 10:44
just to be really thick for a minute, if characters are outside units can they be targetted by cannons? a bloke a gw said they could be, i lost two necromancers to one cannon, they were within 4" of my skeletons, please help.

Yanos
24-08-2005, 10:54
I'll take confirmation/renunciation from any comers here, but I think your opponent would be wrong to say "This cannon is firing along this line at your Necromancer" if he was within 5" of a unit. It's still a shooting attack, so shouldn't be able to single him out. I've heard tell of many an unscrupulous cannoneer however, who'll declare the shot on a unit which just happens to lie along the right line to take your Necro's head off on the bounce as well! Not nice and not fair.

Flame
24-08-2005, 11:41
But perfectly legal according to the rules, as long as the cannon could see either the necro or someone standing in front of him (and the then 'accidentally' over guess)

Festus
24-08-2005, 15:24
Yes, indeed.

Cannon sniping is legal.

And all WarMachines need LoS to their targets with the notable exceptions of

1. The Skaven WLC
2. Stone throwers (they need to see enemies in the direction they are shooting, though

There are no other exceptions I am aware of.

Greetings
Festus

Cheesejoff
24-08-2005, 19:08
You cannot target a character within 4" of a unit. However, you may still hit him with a template weapon. The cannon uses an unusual template which may pass through several units. Therefore as long as there is a viable non-character target, he may shoot at them even if he is meaning to hit the character behind.

Crazy Harborc
25-08-2005, 01:19
When I am on the receiving end of those kinds of "legal according to the rules" cheesey tricks I smile(laugh) and say something like "oh you are, I WILL remember this one!" Do it with a firm but friendly voice and face to match.

Several times now, with cheesey actions, I have made simular comments and opponents "changed their minds". Heck most of the times, it's a long shot and they miss anyway!!

Alco Engineer
25-08-2005, 01:41
That's right. The warhammer gods are fickle. I played and OK army and he moved his guys away from mine so my knights would be out of charge range next turn. I warned him it was out of character and he did it anyway. He barely got a dice roll his way for the rest of the game.

So just remember that you can play to the letter of the law, but unless you play in the spirit of the game the Warhammer gods will not look kindly upon you.


P.S. That article mentioned an earthshaker cannon.....Is there one in WHFB as well? Or have the Amazons got their hands on some more "high-tech" imperial weaponry??

Crazy Harborc
25-08-2005, 01:58
I think a Chaos Army has a "earthshaker" cannon......anyway Chaos does have a BIG boomer now :eek:

WhiteStar
25-08-2005, 05:27
You can actually target a character inside of a unit with the cannon, they will simply get a look out sir roll for it. Therefor I cannot see why a character out side of a unit couldn't be targeted?

I play dwarfs and have good cannoning morale. I don't delibaretly overguess, but if someone is hiding his mage or chariot right behind his unit I would be stupid not to choose the path that also leads through the second target...both for the sake of the shot going long because of the gods of the dice or simply because the chance of a 10" bounce. Sure, it could be deem cheesy to take objects the models couldn't see, but you could see into action. But think of it this time, we take enemies we can't see into action all the time. That knight unit behind the forest is threatening so we deploy taking it into account even if the models "themselves" would not be aware of a unit of killingmachines behind the woods. Nor would your guys (or gals) be aware of the Waywatchers in the woods on your deployment zone but you as the player can damn right see them and act accordingly.

Because of this I think it is fine to take lone mages and targets behind enemy units into account as long as you don't overguess in a real beardy way. If you actually try to shoot at the unit you can see, I see no fault in trying to include a second unit into the shot.

My 5c.

Yanos
25-08-2005, 08:21
...P.S. That article mentioned an earthshaker cannon.....Is there one in WHFB as well? Or have the Amazons got their hands on some more "high-tech" imperial weaponry??...

The Chaos Dwarfs enjoy the boomy goodness that is the Earthshaker Cannon, have a looksee here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/chaos-dwarfs/assets/chaos-dwarfs.pdf) :).



Therefor I cannot see why a character out side of a unit couldn't be targeted?

Because of the "non-targetting of characters within 5" of a friendly unit" rule in the Characters section of the BRB. You're right about the character-in-a-unit example though, it's just a bit :cheese:y.

I do like your rationale concerning shooting down hidden characters :), though I don't really agree with it :D! By virtue of that interpretation, you may as well ignore the 5" rule altogether.

WhiteStar
25-08-2005, 11:51
I just think it's stupid that you can target something that's in a unit but not beside it. Everywhere I've played (in Finland that is) there has been a general consensus that you may target what you want. It has never really been an issue though as everyone places their mages and whatnot inside or in rare, mosttly stupid cases, behind a unit.

Yanos
25-08-2005, 11:56
The reasoning is, I think, that characters at the front of the unit are right at the front of the unit, and are generally more noticable than the regular grunts. Hence being able to line up your cannon shots. The 5" rule is supposed to represent the difficulty in noticing someone skirting the edges of a unit, using the press of bodies to make themselves inconspicuous.

WhiteStar
25-08-2005, 12:16
I just think that the whole rule is farfetched. I think the difference isn't really that big, and a guy that can be discerened in the middle of a gang of soldiers, can certainly be targeted moving on the outskirts of a unit. This is, however, dependant on many factors and "but's" and "if's" in real life.

Yanos
25-08-2005, 12:21
Very true :). It's all thanks in no small part to what would happen to characters if the 5" rule weren't in place :D! Despite the complaints of my largely-shooty DE army, I'd much rather have the 5" rule than be without it, farfetched or not ;).

Festus
25-08-2005, 13:22
Hi

When I am on the receiving end of those kinds of "legal according to the rules" cheesey tricks I smile(laugh) and say something like "oh you are, I WILL remember this one!" Do it with a firm but friendly voice and face to match.

Several times now, with cheesey actions, I have made simular comments and opponents "changed their minds". Heck most of the times, it's a long shot and they miss anyway!!
Oh my! So you try to psych out your oponent because you are not smart enough to put your character into your units when facing enemy artillery? :rolleyes:

Because in units is where they belong if threatened.
If you think you can take the risk, then play like a man and take the odd cannonball to your chest. It is all in the rules and completely fair as it is the same for everyone.

Festus

T10
25-08-2005, 13:23
In other words - hate the game, not the player. :)

-T10

Shimmergloom
25-08-2005, 15:19
Actually it's 5" of a friendly unit of like size to itself, unless it's the closest target to you.

So the reasoning is that you can't pick them out if they might be on the other side of the unit or behind the unit so it's hard to see them. If they're on the closer side to you or in front of the unit, then yes you can pick them out even if they're within 5" of the unit.

You can also pick them out if there's less than 5 rank and file members of the unit. Or if they're mounted and they are not near a calvary unit. Or if they're considered monsters like ogres or on a monster mount(although ogres can't be picked out if they're within 5" of another ogre unit).

MarcoPollo
26-08-2005, 01:03
It is difficult to stop people who over guess with range. It does tell alot about the type of person they are though. If they play for the spirit of the game they will not overguess or maybe just a little. But if they are a "win at all costs" they will overguess.

But there are other "win at all cost" tricks that you can use to even the score if you chose to. Clipping, especially with chariots and often some of the magic-cheese combo's can even the score.

WhiteStar
26-08-2005, 05:59
Now to be clear with what I meant... I meant shooting with cannons at people outside of units - not boltthrowers and whatnot. And as I said, this rarely happens.

Alco Engineer
26-08-2005, 06:43
The Chaos Dwarfs enjoy the boomy goodness that is the Earthshaker Cannon,

Thanks Yanos, I found it a couple of hours after I posted as I was looking over the GW uk website (the OZ one doesn't really have a lot to offer) They've also got the rocket thing that Gav mentions in the atricle.

Starbane
26-08-2005, 19:28
I enjoy sniping with cannons more than with bolt throwers, for the simple reason that a cannon has more chance to actually wound a character.

It's rahter to see when people are overguessing deliberatly though, just take in mind how well their other guesses are, if they always guess the right thing, you can assume they did that then too..

For the single models withing 5", you must take into considering that if this was a real battlefield, the models wouldn't be so nice lined up as they are now. When a unit moves it doesn't always stays in nice clean ranks. At this point, none can tell whether there's a hero among them or not. (unless it's a really nice shining idiot of course)

Commissar von Toussaint
28-08-2005, 13:56
We use free measurement, which stops overguessing in its tracks. It's more fun, goes faster and avoids measurement disputes as well.

Crazy Harborc
30-08-2005, 00:54
A semi-new, but weekly opponent, is VERY good at quessing range/inches for his Empire cannons. :eek: the brightside is that at about 22 inches he is off with his quessing :D

To make up for his very good guessing of ranges..........he seems to really love seeing the misfire die with "misfire" up. :D

Commissar von Toussaint
30-08-2005, 14:28
My understanding is that GW is getting rid of guess weapons. They want away in 40k and also in BFG. Makes me wonder if fantasy isn't far behind.

Rioghan Murchadha
03-09-2005, 07:19
If you read the shooting at characters section, you will note that the area where it indicates that a character near a unit of like sized or larger models cannot be singled out by shooting also mentions a -1 to hit penalty for targetting a single man sized character with shooting. All the shooting dealt with regarding this rule is missile fire that is rolled to hit using BS. i.e. direct fire missile weapons. (bows, xbows, handguns, bolt throwers etc.)

A cannon, being a template weapon is completely immune to this targetting restriction as it is not fired at a specific person/entity/unit, it is merely fired at a point on the table/battlefield.

Cheesy Yes. Illegal? No.

R

Festus
03-09-2005, 08:57
Hi

A cannon, being a template weapon is completely immune to this targetting restriction as it is not fired at a specific person/entity/unit, it is merely fired at a point on the table/battlefield.

Even a template weapon has to be fired at a target (i.e. enemy unit) and not just simply on a point on the tabletop.

There are different sets of restrictions for targetting, but a war machine always has to choose a target.

If in doubt about the nature of a *target* in the context of the rules, read the shooting-rules.

Greetings
Festus

Rioghan Murchadha
03-09-2005, 15:51
Ah Festus. Are you going to take 1 sentence out of context again, in a feeble attempt to prove yourself? How about the fact that all the restrictions on shooting characters are based on Roll to Hit with BS weapons? Are we ignoring that now?

Are we also ignoring the fact that cannon sniping has been around for several editions now, and is not going away any time soon, regardless of how gimpy it is, or how little/much people like it?

P122 BRB: This line is considered to be a template for rules purposes

All GW games have always, and will always mark a distinction between 'shooting, or missile' attacks, and 'template' attacks. You going to now tell me that a dragon can't breath on a character within 5" of a friendly unit? Good luck with that one.

R

Festus
03-09-2005, 22:13
Ah Festus. Are you going to take 1 sentence out of context again, in a feeble attempt to prove yourself? How about the fact that all the restrictions on shooting characters are based on Roll to Hit with BS weapons? Are we ignoring that now?
What do you want to tell me? Do you need to start a fight? :wtf:

All I said is that you must target a unit.

A single character still is a unit.

This doesn't prohibit cannon sniping by the rules at all...

In fact, I am very fond of cannon sniping myself: If you face a Warmachine heavy army, it is the decent thing to put your characters in units of troops. If you do not, you will have to live with the consequences.

Festus

Rioghan Murchadha
03-09-2005, 23:02
Well, if you want to get pedantic, there is nothing in the cannon rules that says you must declare a target unit. Simply rotate the cannon to face its intended target, guess range, and roll artillery dice.

R

Festus
04-09-2005, 07:55
Hi

Well, if you want to get pedantic, there is nothing in the cannon rules that says you must declare a target unit. Simply rotate the cannon to face its intended target, guess range, and roll artillery dice.

I highlighted something :)

Greetings
Festus

Rioghan Murchadha
04-09-2005, 16:21
yeah, but again with the pedantry, it's an intended target, not declared target =) That being because you may intend to hit the mage, but end up hitting your opponent in the head instead.. Mind you, with the way GW words things, and with no consistancy between wordings, the whole paragraph could be taken as you have to be super precise in aiming the cannon model, and your shot goes along the line of the model regardless of what you intended to shoot.

R

Half the time I can't figure out what they mean, and I used to work for em..

Festus
04-09-2005, 16:36
Hi

Yes, they can pretty get imprecise with their wording from time to time... ;)

What I meant was that you still will have to choose a target to fire at and not just a point on the ground somewhere.
Where your shot lands afterwards is determined by your -more or less accurate- guess and Lady Luck's influence on the dice.

IMHO you are not allowed to aim at any empty spot on the tabletop in the hopes of the shot scattering somewhere useful...

...as much I would like this to be, as my Earthshakers main potential lies in disrupting movement, which I like to have as widespread as possible. :)

Greetings
Festus

Rioghan Murchadha
04-09-2005, 21:03
You know.. I just thought about it.. and if you really wanted to be a dick.. nowhere does it say that your target has to be a unit or model... :rolleyes:

This is why GW needs a copy editor..

R

Festus
04-09-2005, 21:08
Hi

If OTOH I wanted to be a dick, I could point out that the first paragraph of the shooting rules define *target* for both normal missile units and warmachines (p.58, 2nd and 4th sentence respectively). ;)

Rioghan Murchadha
04-09-2005, 21:40
Shhh.. page 58 doesn't exist.. it was never in the official printing.

Festus
05-09-2005, 05:54
Hi

Shhh.. page 58 doesn't exist.. it was never in the official printing. :D
FYP

Greetings
Festus