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DeathlessDraich
07-06-2007, 19:25
Q1 Rust Armour: " if the wearer is wounded by a hit with a Strength sufficiently high to cancel his armour save ... the wound is discounted".

What if several hits occur? Since wounds and hits are simultaneous, why should only one hit be discounted?

Q2: Cautious Shield: "the bearer can force one model to lose one attack"
a) What happens if a Giant is in btb contact? - I vaguely recall an FAQ on this but can't find it.
b) A novice asked me if impact hits counts since it is an attack. Instinctively I would say no, but I can't find good reasons.

Q3: What does 'use' mean in Warhammer? Specifically Storm Daemon: "Roll a D6 every time it is used". Is a magic item 'used' when attempting to cast a bound spell or is that an 'attempt to use'.

Q4: Brass Orb: "3D6 points of damage on the Steam Tank" - Is that wounds, and if so with or without armour saves?


Thank you in advance for any answers.

Nell2ThaIzzay
07-06-2007, 19:38
1. Is that the exact wording on the Rust Armor? It does sound, from that wording, that it would discount -any- wounds that are powerful enough to eliminate armor saves.

2. Normally when you force somebody to lose one attack, it is simply one attack off of their profile. Impact Hits aren't attacks, they are automatic hits. If anything, a chariot would lose one attack off of their profile, i.e. an attack from crew or from the steeds. I don't know how it would work against a Giant, since they have special attacks.

3. "Use" means any time you try to use it. So if you use it, but the attempt is dispelled, it still counts as "using" it and therefore may still exhaust.

4. 3D6 wounds, there is no reason why armor saves wouldn't be allowed.

-Keep in mind, these are just my interpretations, I may be wrong.

Tutore
08-06-2007, 06:29
1) from my reading all those wounds are discounted.

2) Impact hits cannot be cancelled by this item, as they arenīt attacks. Special attacks which arenīt numbered in the profile, such as those of the giant, arenīt also cancelled by this item, by analogy with other such items.

3) I also agree that "use" means "attempt to use".

4) No idea.

Angelwing
08-06-2007, 14:52
1. The first wound is ignored, or one of the wounds from the first batch is ignored, then the armour is gone.
2. impact hits are not attacks. The giant doesnt have an attack characteristic to ignore. Basically, any model that uses an attack characteristic can have one of those attacks ignored.
3. 'used when attempting to cast the warplightning spell.' the roll is to see if it runs out of power. Do not roll when it is used in close combat to attack someone.
4. no armour saves, nothing at all for a steam tank.

Mouse_NJ
08-06-2007, 15:14
Here's my takes as a skaven player how I would play it out...
Q1 Rust Armour: " if the wearer is wounded by a hit with a Strength sufficiently high to cancel his armour save ... the wound is discounted".
-All hits are rolled at the same time, lets say 2 wound, then the first wound is discounted, and the 2nd one would actually count.

Q2: Cautious Shield: "the bearer can force one model to lose one attack"
a) What happens if a Giant is in btb contact? - I vaguely recall an FAQ on this but can't find it.
-you cannot reduce a giants attacks, even if he swings with club it is actually counting as a "shooting attack" thus you cannot negate it.
b) A novice asked me if impact hits counts since it is an attack. Instinctively I would say no, but I can't find good reasons.
-impact hits cannot be reduce, the attack from models in a chariot however can.

Q3: What does 'use' mean in Warhammer? Specifically Storm Daemon: "Roll a D6 every time it is used". Is a magic item 'used' when attempting to cast a bound spell or is that an 'attempt to use'.
-Each time you attempt to use the Storm Daemon you have to roll, so even if your opponent dispels it you still roll. There are 2 printings of the skaven army book, on has the correct wording.

Q4: Brass Orb: "3D6 points of damage on the Steam Tank" - Is that wounds, and if so with or without armour saves?
-remember that the Skaven Army book came out under "old" rules for the steam tank where it had damage points that occurred not wounds. Right now it does not indicate that it causes 3D6 wounds on the steam tank, so you can't just swap it. You have to resolve it as if its hitting a figure where if i remember right the figure takes an initiative check. The steam tank does have an stat line now, so it takes the initiative check.

Angelwing
08-06-2007, 15:31
thats put me right on the steam tank. One hopes it has a low Int.
*evil chuckle*

Atrahasis
08-06-2007, 15:40
thats put me right on the steam tank. One hopes it has a low Int.
*evil chuckle*

It has I0 automatically fails Initiative tests.

DeathlessDraich
09-06-2007, 10:25
Thank you for the answers so far which I have summarised below:

Q1 - Unresolved. Opinion seems divided on how the Rust armour works.

Q2 - Attack in this case can only mean close combat attack - pg 4

a) Impact hits. Resolved and a consensus :
No one has offered a definitive explanation of what constitutes an 'attack' in WHFB. The first paragraph of Impact hits seem to separate impact hits and 'attacks'. I suppose that will have to do.

b) Giant. Unresolved:
TK 's magic item, Vambraces, states that Giant attacks are not affected. However the same phrase is absent in the Cautious Shield's rules.

Q3 - A consensus on this. 'use' = 'attempt to use or cast'. I'll accept the popular vote.

Q4 - Brass Orb and Steam Tank:
Unresolved: I think two dice rolls are probably needed. One to decide whether 'points of damage' can be assumed to be wounds and a second to decide whether armour saves are allowed or not

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-06-2007, 10:36
Rust armour really doesn't seem that difficult to work out to me. Once you take a hit that would remove your armour save, it's discounted and the armour is destroyed.

If you take multiple hits that would do that in CC, just remove one and remove the armour as well.

DeathlessDraich
09-06-2007, 10:45
Once you take a hit that would remove your armour save, it's discounted and the armour is destroyed.


"Once you take a hit"? Hits are unfortunately simultaneous and not sequential. That is the root of the original problem that was pointed out to me.
I still can't find the right rules to refute that argument effectively.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-06-2007, 11:22
I still don't really see a problem to be honest. As I see it, it doesn't really matter if you take one, or many hits, it will only remove one of them before it's destroyed. And I'm 99% certain thats how a FAQ on it would read too.

I just don't see any room for arguing that since all the hits are supposedly simultaneously all of them would be removed.

theunwantedbeing
09-06-2007, 13:29
Skaven rust armour?
You just ignore the first hit that wound negate it,and any other subsequent hits that would negate it arent negated,as the armour is destroyed.

Cautious sheild?
No effect on the giants attacks,as it doesnt attack normally.
Impact hits arent attacks,so those arent ignored either.

Used simply means you you used it.
ie. you attempted to cast the spell using the storm daemon.
If it meant on a successful usage of the item then it would say that.
So you roll everytime you want to cast the bound spell within the storm daemon,you roll to see if it stops working,then you see if your opponent can dispel it.

The inital wording of the brass orb states that opponents get no saves allowed upon failing their initiutive test,the steam tank will similarly suffer 3D6 points of damage with no saves allowed.

Hope thats useful.

Negativemoney
09-06-2007, 17:28
1: The first hit is discounted and only the first hit. So if multiple hits come in at the same time you discard one and then resolve the others as normal.

2: Does not work on Giants or Impact Hits.

3. Using and item means that you have activated its ablity and thus even if it is stoped you still need to roll for it.

4. This is a realy difficult question to answer because it can go one of two ways.
First - if the word 'damage' is equivelent to 'wounds' then the Stank would take 3D6 wounds, but it would get armor saves as there is no mention in the rules (against a Stank) that it would negate armor saves.
Second - since 'damage' has no meaning under 7th eddition you discount that section entirely and the Stank is destroyed with no armorsave (as it auto fails I tests). Also since there is no relation of damage points to wounds there is no way to say how many damage points = 1 wound. Remeber that Stanks in 6th eddition had between 28 and 35 hull points and the new Stank has only 10 wounds.

By intent of the rules I would go with the first way of looking at it as it keeps the original intent. That being that the Stank is so massive that it cannot just be destroyed in one sing shot and that its armor could possibly protect it from such an attak.

Nell2ThaIzzay
09-06-2007, 18:31
I didn't know that the Rust Armor negated only one wound and then was destroyed.

If it says that the armor becomes destroyed after saving the wound, then yes, it only saves 1 wound. If 3 wounds are dealt to you at the same time, then one is saved, and you're dealt only 2 wounds.

DeathlessDraich
10-06-2007, 15:55
Sorry, if I'm going on about details but the problems were raised by a newbie - it's interesting to see how they interpret rules without preconceived assumptions.
I'm still looking for a convincing argument based on the rules as opposed to "this is how most players intepret it".
Hopefully this thread will provide me with some ideas at least.


I still don't really see a problem to be honest. As I see it, it doesn't really matter if you take one, or many hits, it will only remove one of them before it's destroyed. And I'm 99% certain thats how a FAQ on it would read too.
I just don't see any room for arguing that since all the hits are supposedly simultaneously all of them would be removed.

I agree in principle.

**The question is - At which point will the Rust armour disintegrate?

The rules demands that all hits [from models of the same Initiative] are simultaneous - pg 34 "...all blows are struck in strict Initiative order".
The Rust armour must disintegrate *after* this.
It cannot disintegrate while [equal Initiative] blows are being struck as they are simultaneous.


Skaven rust armour?
You just ignore the first hit that wound negate it,
.

First? - That would not be a useful way of explaining it unfortunately. See above **



Cautious sheild?
No effect on the giants attacks,as it doesnt attack normally.
Impact hits arent attacks,so those arent ignored either.
.

What then is an 'attack' and where is it clearly explained in the rule book?
Can we exclude 'special attacks' from the broader category of 'attacks'?
That would create problems with units that have Special attacks e.g. Chaos Spawns etc.


1: The first hit is discounted and only the first hit. So if multiple hits come in at the same time you discard one and then resolve the others as normal. .

First? - See above **



2: Does not work on Giants or Impact Hits.
.

Any reasons?




4. This is a realy difficult question to answer because it can go one of two ways.
First - if the word 'damage' is equivelent to 'wounds' then the Stank would take 3D6 wounds, but it would get armor saves as there is no mention in the rules (against a Stank) that it would negate armor saves.
Second - since 'damage' has no meaning under 7th eddition you discount that section entirely and the Stank is destroyed with no armorsave (as it auto fails I tests). Also since there is no relation of damage points to wounds there is no way to say how many damage points = 1 wound. Remeber that Stanks in 6th eddition had between 28 and 35 hull points and the new Stank has only 10 wounds.

By intent of the rules I would go with the first way of looking at it as it keeps the original intent. That being that the Stank is so massive that it cannot just be destroyed in one sing shot and that its armor could possibly protect it from such an attak.

I tend to agree that it will be the lesser of 2 evils.



If it says that the armor becomes destroyed after saving the wound, then yes, it only saves 1 wound. If 3 wounds are dealt to you at the same time, then one is saved, and you're dealt only 2 wounds.

**See above.

Nell2ThaIzzay
10-06-2007, 17:22
It doesn't matter if all blows are struck at once, only one wound is saved.

The armor says "the wound is discounted", not "wounds". It's not plural.

In the case of all attacks happened at once, you negate 1 wound, as per the effect of the armor, and all of the remaining wounds happen as normal.

DeathlessDraich
11-06-2007, 08:52
Good enough for me. Thanks