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View Full Version : Ogre Kingdoms versus Wood Elves...



Nazguire
12-08-2005, 05:52
Stumps me. It seems to be a match that would mean there is no clear winner: One is utterly slaughtered, the other is relatively unscathed. So different playing styles. Help me play..

I have

1 Tyrant
1 Butcher
1 Hunter

3 units of 6x Bulls
1x Unit of Ironguts
2x Units of Gnoblars
16x Dogs of War Norse Marauders
1 Gorger
8x Gnoblar Trapper


Opponent is going for the cloak and dagger approach so he tells me...so is including a Treeman :eyebrows: Way watchers Wardancers, Eternal Guard, Wild Hunt, Glade Riders, Glade Guard, Highborn with Great Weapon and the dreaded Dryads.

I'm stumped as to how to defeat it. So much fire power and speed, hard to catch, Treeman...?

GodHead
12-08-2005, 06:31
I think the army matchup is actually generally in facvor of the Ogres, however that said, your particular setup looks pretty awful (sorry, not meaning to be insulting, just making a purely judgemental, purely opinionated statement about your selection). If any player can achieve success against any opponent with the Ogre Kingdoms army list, kudos to them, if you can generally achieve success with that list, my hat is off to you sir. Even with the selection you have (as substandard as I think it is) you should be able to throw enough at him to do some serious damage, and if you consider some of the inclusions or changes I recommend below, your opponent will have a mighty time trying to stay on the board.

If he's really taking that as his army, he won't have an army so much as a zoo. With that many different things, it will be pretty much impossible for him to hold together any kind of a battle line. He'll have a different specialist for every occasion, but no way to tie them together into a cohesive force. His army will present danger to you at different times, and either waste the mobility advantage of his fast elements, by tying his charges together, which will also give you time to react, change position and clobber him, or he will come at you piecemeal, this turn the riders, next turn the wardancers/dryads, next turn the eternal guard, etc etc.

The hardest thing for you to do will be to maintain positional superiority, and for this reason, I think you will benefit greatly from the classic refused flank manouver. His superior manouver will allow him to outflank you given any opportunity, and by refusing a flank, you are reducing this opportunity on the one hand, while drawing the combat closer to possible Gorger areas as well. Against Wood Elves is the only time I would ever encourage the use of Yhetees, as their terrain ability and superior movement will allow you to counter some of his tactics.

The Hunter, properly utilized (very very carefully...) may be very useful for dealing with the Treeman. Beware that the Wood Elf player will likely realize this, and seek to deal with the Hunter pretty quickly, and with the tools at his disposal will be likely to achieve this goal, but maybe you'll get luck and inflict some wounds on the damn thing before it rampages into you (it's only M5 now, so you'll get another shot if you try).

Other than that, I wouldn't be too scared of his list, as he will be relying on inflicting casualties more than static Combat Resolution, and your Ogres should a.) be able to fight harder, and b.) should actually have a point or two of static Combat Resolution, so it's win win for you, Ogres should be able to beat Dryads and Eternal Guard, no matter who charges, Wardancers if you're careful, and any Cavalry on the charge. Some Leadbelchers would be useful to deal with his Cavalry, as it is very fast, but has very poor armor and toughness.

Well I hope some of this has helped. I wish someone could tell me how to beat a Treeman with my Bubonic Court list... 2 games against WE so far, 2 massacres for the WE player thanks to ~1000 points of my army racked up by the damn thing (even when I try and avoid it!).

Chuffy
12-08-2005, 08:21
The Ogres will always lose with the army list you have chosen.

Units of 6 bulls? Not only are Ironguts better but taking units of anything above 4 is stupid. How much are you paying for that extra rank and a slightly higher gut charge, 100-130 points? Can you honestly say thats worth it?

Also your taking Gnoblars. What will they do? Give easy victory points to an army like Wood Elves.

Ditch all Gnoblars, split those Bulls up into smaller units (4), get rid of those marauders. Get more Ironguts, when facing wood elves leadbelchers are ESSENTIAL, leadbelchers destroy skirmishers and fast cavalry, I'm really suprised you don't have any. The Gorger is a good choice, think about taking a single maneater aswell, give him a Cathayan Longsword and maybe some handguns, he becomes very good at smashing small units like welves.

Also, Yhettees are an awesome unit, models aren't very nice, but ruleswise they kick ass. Against wood elves they are even more useful, like leadbelchers, essential against wood elves.

athamas
12-08-2005, 10:23
also avoid the tree man.. he will scream challange as often as possible, thus rebmoving your characters with easy.. [hitting on 6's, againts T6? will be difficult at best]

Riddy
12-08-2005, 13:44
Wont be a Treeman lord, you need a 3K+ army for one of those, so it wont be challenging.

Xavier
12-08-2005, 19:36
er.. you can have a treeman lord in 2000 points.. unless you mean because of the highborn which could easily be made a noble.

Nazguire
13-08-2005, 09:54
I think the army matchup is actually generally in facvor of the Ogres, however that said, your particular setup looks pretty awful (sorry, not meaning to be insulting, just making a purely judgemental, purely opinionated statement about your selection). If any player can achieve success against any opponent with the Ogre Kingdoms army list, kudos to them, if you can generally achieve success with that list, my hat is off to you sir. Even with the selection you have (as substandard as I think it is) you should be able to throw enough at him to do some serious damage, and if you consider some of the inclusions or changes I recommend below, your opponent will have a mighty time trying to stay on the board.

If he's really taking that as his army, he won't have an army so much as a zoo. With that many different things, it will be pretty much impossible for him to hold together any kind of a battle line. He'll have a different specialist for every occasion, but no way to tie them together into a cohesive force. His army will present danger to you at different times, and either waste the mobility advantage of his fast elements, by tying his charges together, which will also give you time to react, change position and clobber him, or he will come at you piecemeal, this turn the riders, next turn the wardancers/dryads, next turn the eternal guard, etc etc.

The hardest thing for you to do will be to maintain positional superiority, and for this reason, I think you will benefit greatly from the classic refused flank manouver. His superior manouver will allow him to outflank you given any opportunity, and by refusing a flank, you are reducing this opportunity on the one hand, while drawing the combat closer to possible Gorger areas as well. Against Wood Elves is the only time I would ever encourage the use of Yhetees, as their terrain ability and superior movement will allow you to counter some of his tactics.

The Hunter, properly utilized (very very carefully...) may be very useful for dealing with the Treeman. Beware that the Wood Elf player will likely realize this, and seek to deal with the Hunter pretty quickly, and with the tools at his disposal will be likely to achieve this goal, but maybe you'll get luck and inflict some wounds on the damn thing before it rampages into you (it's only M5 now, so you'll get another shot if you try).

Other than that, I wouldn't be too scared of his list, as he will be relying on inflicting casualties more than static Combat Resolution, and your Ogres should a.) be able to fight harder, and b.) should actually have a point or two of static Combat Resolution, so it's win win for you, Ogres should be able to beat Dryads and Eternal Guard, no matter who charges, Wardancers if you're careful, and any Cavalry on the charge. Some Leadbelchers would be useful to deal with his Cavalry, as it is very fast, but has very poor armor and toughness.

Well I hope some of this has helped. I wish someone could tell me how to beat a Treeman with my Bubonic Court list... 2 games against WE so far, 2 massacres for the WE player thanks to ~1000 points of my army racked up by the damn thing (even when I try and avoid it!).



Thanks for the advice. The stuff that I put up as my list is basically what I bought, haven't really organised it as yet into an army that's viable. I also have Leadbelchers but am wary to use them as to their misfires. But I suppose risks is what the Ogre Kingdoms army is about e.g. Gut Magic.

I put in the Marauders as a way of increasing numbers, but meh, I'll ditch them happily. They were mainly put in there to make up numbers.

2ndCompanyVeterans
14-08-2005, 12:29
Just thought I would bundle some stuff in there as well,

I think an essential unit here is Yhetes as they ignore pretty much all terrain so will not get slowed down, They have magical attacks so they can job all the "Demon tree's" The bang stick is quite useful as well.

The thunder mace or tenderizer would be useful against big slow stuff if there is no ancient they are really useful against normal a treeman.

I would max out on gut magic as wood elf magic has been somewhat capped in preference of the combat characters. Namely the altered kindred lord as he is a gaming winning character. Not nice no siree!

Thank you for reading.

Jeru
15-08-2005, 03:24
If he has a treeman ancient, I would almost guarantee it having Netlings (on challenge opponent only hits on 6s) and quite possibly Murder spites (an extra D6 S2 I4 melee attacks per turn). There are some other spite combos he could take but not many that would be effective against ogres.

The Key to defeating wood elves is knowing how frail they are. I mean come on, a leaf falls on one and it's arm breaks. Thats literally how frail they are. Magic is a BIG Part of the WE army.

Wardancer's can be nasty, just make sure you keep them checked on dont let them charge a powerful unit as they can start their dancing.

Waywatchers can only Lethal Shot(ranged killing blow) on human models, so you don't have a problem there.

Cavalry, they are both FC, so they go no rank bonuses. Keep that in mind. but they CAN get a freerearrange and wheel flank you. So make sure if there is a unit of ranked Kurnous that they dont get to your flank. Otherwise it could get nasty.

Glade Riders are worthless imo, the Kurnous are only 2 points more per model, so why anyone would take these is beyond me. You're better off with gladeguard.

which brings me to the Gladeguard. Now here's a nasty little trick ive heard about, and im sure people on this forum have talked about. The WE can give their Scout unit a magic standard and there's one that disables you from being able to march 8" to 12" away from a unit. So a well placed scout unit can keep you from marching early on. Keep on eye on this.

Eternal guard can be decent. I view them as being viable in blocks of 20+ or so, and with a noble/highborn. Don't get me wrong they are a great offensive unit, but they will drop as easily as everything else in the army.

Dryads are a good, unit but just keep them in check. They can't fight against a ranked unit with combat resolution bonuses for long. So make sure you are engaging them on your terms, and not letting them assist another unit by flanking or charging to allow a calvalry unit flank you.

Magic items to watch out for:
Amber Amulet : any model in base contact with the person carrying this will strike last, doesnt matter if you charged or have an item that allows you to strike 1st. You strike last. This can be nasty Given to an Highborn w/ a Greatweapon, and there are a myriad of items he could be sporting to further help this. Including Netlings. So you would be striking last, hitting on 6s, vs a high WS 4 attack S6 general. If they give him Alter status or A Helm of the Hunt it just gets worse. Thats more attacks and more WS.

Divination Orb: if you use more than 3 dice to cast a spell the WE player gets another dispel dice. This is a cheap item and I can see people taking it quite often.

Something's Locus: This item basically nullifies every strength bonus for the user and the person fighting the user. Both magical and nonmagical weapons have ALL their strength bonuses nullified. Not a bad item to toss on a mage.

Let me know how your fight works out, or if you have any other questions.

I picked up the WE book 5 days ago and have put together 10 different lists so far. So basically I have spent the last 5 days putting the WE army under the microscope for item combos and regiment combos etc. I was thinking about playing them, but I'm just not *feeling* the groove atm. Who knows it could change ^^.