PDA

View Full Version : Lots of Handgunners but not a gunline?



catbarf
09-06-2007, 01:00
I remember reading about a Dwarf player who themed his army around the rebels in the American Revolution, meaning all Thunderers as infantry- but, to avoid cheese, he ranked them like normal infantry, 5x4. This got me thinking- what about a Nuln Empire army? Nuln relies heavily on Handgunners, probably almost enough to make them more of a core troop than a support unit. So, if I were to take, say 1/2 of my infantry as Handgunners, but rank them 5x2 instead of 10x1, would it still be cheesy? Would it still be a gunline? Please share your thoughts.

Also, would it serve any real purpose other than avoiding cheese? Thunderers are great melee troops (and thus somewhat useful in 5x4, for ranks), but Handgunners, not so much. Would any advantage be gained from having 5x2 units? What about 5x2 or 10x2, and using full command?

theunwantedbeing
09-06-2007, 01:38
If you want to avoid cheese completely.
Dont take handgunners,take swordsmen and spearmen and halbeardiers in big block units and nothing else.

5 x2 units with full command eh?
I guess your going to be taking lots of these units then?
Say...6 of them,instead of the usual 3 units of 10 wide handgunners?

Still a gunline.

catbarf
09-06-2007, 01:53
But, by using them in 5x2, that's only 5 troops shooting at a time- effectively halving my firepower. Not to mention full command drains points. And how the heck else do I play Nuln then?

Besides, I'm not saying all-Handgunners- but, whereas in a normal list State Troops are supported by Handgunners, it is instead Handgunners supported by State Troops.

theunwantedbeing
09-06-2007, 01:59
Depends how many units you have really,and how many units of 10x1 you would usually take.

If you normally take 3 units of 10x1 and then take 6 units of 5x2 your not halving your firepower,therefore you still have the same gunline as before,only it gets to shoot at 6 different things each turn rather than only 3.

If you instead take 3 units of 5x2 then you are halving your firepower and depending on the number of artillery pieces you have in your army you dont have a gunline anymore.

The_Dark_Raven
09-06-2007, 02:01
mabey go for like 2 or 3 troop choices of them give one full command then when you line them up to start battles you group them together in one line:evilgrin: this means you have 20-30 guys all lined up ready to shoot.

then you take some nice units like pistoliers to give you more theme, take a big unit of swordsmen give them detachments of hallies and spearies to show you got some more troops then gunmen.

also for you main hero make him carry a pistol my friend did this by placing two pistols in holsters from the pistoliers box set on either side of his generals saddle though only one counts it looks sweet and would suit Nuln well.

using a wizard with the lore of Metal is good as it would show some link to guns with them being metal and all, then give a master engineer too top it off

everything else you take doesn't have to be 100% Nuln as your main units and heros look the part already:p

hope i help, any questions? feel free to ask because this is probley confusing

catbarf
09-06-2007, 02:22
If you normally take 3 units of 10x1 and then take 6 units of 5x2 your not halving your firepower,therefore you still have the same gunline as before,only it gets to shoot at 6 different things each turn rather than only 3.

I was thinking 3 units of 20 Swords each, each with a detachment of 5 HG and a detachment of 9 Free Company. Then I'd also have 2 units of HGs, 10x2 or so with FC.

Also, I'd go a little light on artillery- only two pieces in 2k pts.

I also want to take some Outriders.

Lastly, I'd take only a scroll caddy for magic- I want lots of guns without a gunline.

catbarf
09-06-2007, 19:29
So is it possible or not?

Nell2ThaIzzay
09-06-2007, 19:34
I remember reading about a Dwarf player who themed his army around the rebels in the American Revolution, meaning all Thunderers as infantry- but, to avoid cheese, he ranked them like normal infantry, 5x4. This got me thinking- what about a Nuln Empire army? Nuln relies heavily on Handgunners, probably almost enough to make them more of a core troop than a support unit. So, if I were to take, say 1/2 of my infantry as Handgunners, but rank them 5x2 instead of 10x1, would it still be cheesy? Would it still be a gunline? Please share your thoughts.

Also, would it serve any real purpose other than avoiding cheese? Thunderers are great melee troops (and thus somewhat useful in 5x4, for ranks), but Handgunners, not so much. Would any advantage be gained from having 5x2 units? What about 5x2 or 10x2, and using full command?

My advice:

Play the army you want to play. Don't worry about people who will call it cheese, just play to have fun, and don't let other people dictate to you how to play the game.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-06-2007, 19:35
But, by using them in 5x2, that's only 5 troops shooting at a time- effectively halving my firepower. Not to mention full command drains points. And how the heck else do I play Nuln then?



Where does the crazy idea that Nuln is all Black Powder weapons come from?

They make most of the Imperial Armies warmachines, but thats about it. They would still have large formations of Halberdiers, Swordsmen, Spearmen etc.

I don't see why you feel the need to jump through some crazy hoops to try and make a themed army(especially since I think it wouldn't actually be themed correctly).

Ranking them 2*5 might half your firepower, but thats really the majority of the army, it's still a gunline. It's just a really bad one. They will get slaughtered in combat just as easily.

Rioghan Murchadha
09-06-2007, 20:31
Ultimately, whether or not someone calls this army a gunline, it's still not 'cheesy'. An empire static gunline is fairly easy for *most* armies to deal with. Their guns are T3, no armour save, and outranged by longbows. They can't move and shoot. Unless all of your 'support' units were Knights, Helblasters, and other artillery, there is no way in hell anyone should call it cheesy. Particularly if you're hamstringing yourself by putting full commands in your gunner regiments, and ranking them 5x2 even when not on hills.

catbarf
10-06-2007, 01:00
Where does the crazy idea that Nuln is all Black Powder weapons come from?

From all the Empire books. Nuln produces black powder in enormous quantities, and Handgunners are a primary unit. I'm thinking I'm still going to use 10x2 and Full Command in my units- as a way to balance the ludicrous # of guns, a way to make them .0001 times better in melee, and just because it looks damn cool. Not to mention one of my main opponents is a Mortal Khorne player, and he will still get really, really pissed.

Highborn
10-06-2007, 04:02
Not cheesey in the slightest, as long as you keep them in that formation and don't decide to tactically increase frontage in your first turn.

FlameKnight
10-06-2007, 05:53
Nothing has ever said Nuln relies on handgunners. It's the home of the Imperial Gunnery School, where cannons and mortars are cast. An army with 4 cannons can be explained, but an army with 60 handgunners can not.

Taking a Nuln army as an excuse for a gunline is bad, mmkay?

Bingo the Fun Monkey
10-06-2007, 18:36
There's no "mainstay" rule in the Empire book. I don't see why any army should have more meta-game restrictions than others. That's like saying High Elves shouldn't be allowed to take cavalry armies or that since the new orc boyz got buffed you can't take more than 2 units! Since my beastherds can get a rank bonus and still skirmish IT'S CHEESE!!! CHEESE I TELL YOU!!! ...and I won't even think about ambushing with 'em...lest some self-righteous punk tells me the dreaded news that I'm playing a CHEESED out army.

bluesky322
10-06-2007, 19:04
go for it i think it sounds fun but you dont need to weaken your army ive found that most gunlines dont work

Brother Siccarius
10-06-2007, 19:17
If you want to avoid cheese don't take handgunners, crossbowmen, wizards, cannons, hellblasters, Arch Lectors, Warrior priests, rockets, mortars, knights, pistoliers, greatswords, or infantry, cavalry, warmachines or characters.:D


Oh, and if you really want to avoid people calling you cheesy, don't take an army.:evilgrin:

Bingo the Fun Monkey
10-06-2007, 19:18
If you want to avoid cheese don't take handgunners, crossbowmen, wizards, cannons, hellblasters, Arch Lectors, Warrior priests, rockets, mortars, knights, pistoliers, greatswords, or infantry, cavalry, warmachines or characters.:D


Oh, and if you really want to avoid people calling you cheesy, don't take an army.:evilgrin:

...and don't you dare think about winning.

Brother Siccarius
10-06-2007, 19:21
...and don't you dare think about winning.

Or losing, or drawing, or showing up at all. In fact, as soon as you pick up an army book people will start calling you a cheesy bastard*.

Oh, and anyone have a tissue? There's Catbarf all over the forums:evilgrin:

*actually happened to me in a GW when I bought a skaven armybook.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
10-06-2007, 22:06
That's not catbarf. That's monchego cheese.

scarletsquig
10-06-2007, 22:15
One simple problem with this idea:

The dwarf handgunners you saw come with WS 4, T4, LD 9 and a 4+ save in close combat - they're nasty.

The empire handgunners come with a pokey stick and a pair of pyjamas.

It's not gonna happen.

catbarf
11-06-2007, 01:12
Hmm... good point. I think I'll go with 3 blocks of melee troops, and another 40 Handgunners. I'll go light on the artillery.

Oh, and the Empire fluff says that some... 85% or so of Handguns are produced in Nuln, and then shipped everywhere else for high profit. Nuln has tons of Handgunners. They just don't have all the experimental crap that Altdorf sends out. Those things make Skaven weapons seem safe.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
11-06-2007, 13:09
Actually, you may find this useful, as wide ranks can be a pain to maneuver around the battlefield, although with move-or-shoot weapons, you may not be moving that much anyway. If you want to avoid cries of cheese, bring no more than 10% of your army's point total in powder weapons.

PS, see sig

corvo
11-06-2007, 13:18
The hand gunner army doesn't sound too scary to me, But maybe thats because I like my blocks of troops with a minimum size of 25, and they are orcs and goblins.

Just go for it really. I am not sure how common handgunners would of been, but I doubt they would base an entire army on handgunners without infantry support, if only because they would be in trouble if it rained. You could go with a classic 30 year war style army, with gunners, spears and halberds supported by pistoliers and the occasional cannon.

ZeroTwentythree
11-06-2007, 14:12
I'd agree that just because Nuln is home to the gunnery school and has a higher proportion of blackpowder weapons, that does not mean they rely solely on them.

For one thing, a certain amount would be with distributed with various Imperial armies in different areas. Second, just because they can do something doesn't mean they should - would they really give every single soldier in the Nuln army a gun and make their army that one dimensional? Third, even if sticking with primarily blackpowder troops, you can mix in some non-handgunner blackpowder troops like pistoliers, outriders, artillery, etc.

catbarf
11-06-2007, 18:46
I'm not saying all-handgunners, I'm just saying many more than the norm. Like three units of ten each, in addition to my infantry blocks. And I plan on taking Outriders, Swordsmen, Free Company, and others as well.

Nuln doesn't distribute the weapons, Nuln sells them. For lots of money. That's how they can afford to have the best engineers, best metalsmiths, best just about everyone working for the Gunnery School.

Infrared
12-06-2007, 15:34
Cheesy is a term that i hate seeing tossed around. I mean, there are themed armies that get bad raps sometimes. Why does a gunline make the army cheesy? Don't you think that if it were overpowering that in the 7th revision of the game that GW would have made them less powerful or harder to take? Handgunners aren't exactly the cream of the crop either, mind you. I mean, usually they hit on 5's (or one good round at 4's before they get charged). Their range is only 24", so if you set up correctly against them, you shouldn't be in range in the first turn. And sure, they're S4 armor peircing, but lets say you have 60 gunners, you would, by average, hit 20 times? Maybe 12 wounds if you don't roll poorly, assuming T3 troops are the target with no armor? If 12 wounds ruins your day, you should work out how to use terrain a bit better and build a better army. To me, taking a list like that is risky anyway, and in the long run, it all weighs out.

Now, throw in a few outriders, a cannon, and maybe a unit of pistoliers, that would be a good themed army.

BUT, you would still need combat troops. a unit of spears with halberdiers as detachment, and throw one of those units of handgunners as detachments with them, and it wouldn't be too bad. Maybe a unit of swordsman with the same detachment set up. You could use Greatswords as a heavy hitter. Or even knights. By the time it's all said and done, you would have only a quarter of your points in hangunners, another quarter in specials with black powder, and with your characters, the other half combat if you choose to go that way.

Regardless, play the way you want to play. The books are set up so that you can go any which way you like and still keep the armies well balanced. Like i said, taking a list like that could be risky, and someone's going to have your number simply because their army really does well against your set up, but i wouldn't think it cheesy.