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Korgoth
09-06-2007, 06:21
Hey guys, I just had a few questions. Got back into warhammer within the last 4ish months, and started up a new 7th edition O & G army, while my friend started wood elves. And so far, I have lost 95% of the battles, and that last 5% is only a draw, not even a single victory. here is a summary of my army list
Orc big boss
Orc shaman (lvl 2)
30 orc boyz
30 night goblins (spears, nets, 2 fanatics)
20 night goblins (spears, 1 fanatic)
7 Wolf Riders (spears, shields)
Rock Lobba
11 Arrer boyz
11 Black orcs

This is all for a 1250 points battle. He uses
2 units of 8-11 dryads
2 units of 7 wardancers
20 archers
6 glade riders
great eagle

Any ideas on how to beat him would be appreciated, we have brainstormed multiple times and we can't really think of anything that would work pretty well. I mean I end up winning some combats because of ranks, standard etc. But overall he can pick his fights, making it very hard overall.

Von Wibble
09-06-2007, 10:57
It would be helpful if the characters used by WE were posted.

WE are a very tough army to beat in this size game.

In general WE hate the following

Magic - the -2 to hit from skirmish and woods just doesn't apply against a magic missile and tehn you are looking at expensive models with low saves.

Cr - best way to do this is with lots of shield equipped goblins. Take about 6 units of 25 with command. That way yuou outnumber his units with units of your own that have 4+ save so don't take many losses.

Tough chariots (1st word very important). Although wood elves easily shoot wolf chariots this is not true of the boar pulled variety. Impact hits can be killer as long as you have support (otherwise the ward save stops you).

Rock lobba is not a good choice as teh template doesn't really hit many in a skirmishing unit. Doom Diver otoh is more accurate and has D6 hits rather than template (also more S).

Small elite units like 11 black orcs are a bad idea - easily shot and you are trying to beat WE at their own game - little can beat dryads/wardancers without cr involved.

Finally, on a tactical note, remember he can't flee from chargeswith many units. You on the other hand can, and should (be careful with panic mind). Don't let him pick his fights.

Franco
09-06-2007, 11:42
Instead of 30 orcs, use 2x 20 and 3x 20 gobbos. Fanatics and netters are good aswell.

warlord hack'a
09-06-2007, 18:31
get svg orcs: no matter how many he shoots: they will not panic and rip through most we forces once in close combat.
get one or 2 boar chariots as mentioned above
get at least one unit of spideriders to race around flanks etc. Against woodelves spipderriders are your friend

and indeed get more gobbo's the trcik against we is to just keep on marching forward with as wide a front as possible, in the first 4 turns you will get shot but once you close him in you should win close combat if you manage to get your chariots in range of his best close combat units..

Korgoth
09-06-2007, 19:32
My biggest problem is his guys can stay in cover and avoid all my shooting, so the battlefield ends up looking like his 2 units of archers in the center on his end of the field, and then dryad units and wardancer units all along the flanks, waiting to charge.

nurgle_boy
09-06-2007, 22:29
This is indeed a hard game to play. Pitting a relatively slow moving, black army against a fast moving skirmish army is never a fun prospect. one thing to do, although slightly cheeky, might be to play with a magic heavy army. Orc magic is fairly offensive, and wood elves do not have a great capacity to sustain heavy damage. if you can retain magic dominance for most of the game, you may well stand a chance of limiting your own casualties, and thus having the potential to be able to beat the wardancers in combat, an then you can either ignore, or try and corner the archers.
Fanatics and squig hoppers could work, although make sure not to let the fanatics get drawn out (ie keep the parent unit of night gobbos further than 9" from terrain, and to keep the squigs alive.) Hoppers may be usefull as a kind of suicide weapon. get them close to the enemy, then flee from a charge, or break due to shooting. this causes the unit to pop and cause lots of high strength hits.

also, savage orcs may not be your best bet. skirmishers will send them on a wild goose chase, and a lever opponent will effectively neutralise the costly unit in a few turns.

Cragspyder
09-06-2007, 23:39
Personally I think taking Chariots is EXTREMELY bad advice vs. Wood Elves, as all of his units treat woods as open ground, and can either flee from the chariot's charge through the woods, or simply stand + shoot and then let the chariot finish itself off with the d6 S 5 hits it takes from moving through difficult terrain. Even it if manages to make it to the wood elves and sees them off, it takes another d6 S5 hits when it tries to move out of the woods again, which will likely kill it.

Magic, however, is excellent advice. Keep in mind that the ward saves of the dryads do NOT count vs. magical attacks, which will help you to defeat them.

Bolt Throwers are a no-go, Rock Lobbers will have a better chance to find targets. I am not positive on the rules for Doom Divers but I recall reading that as long as 1 model is hit by the Diver, the unit takes d6 S5 hits, which is good vs. Skirmishers.

Squig Hopper I believe ignore terrain, but they are easy to kill. Spider Riders also ignore terrain but they are not that hot in close combat, they will probably see off Glade Guard and that's about it (keep in mind that the Elves cannot Stand + Shoot if you charge them from 8'' or less.). Against Wardancers you will probably have a tough time beating them in CC and they have Magic Resistance, so they might be a good target for your big CC units or Boar Boars. Keep in mind that as Skirmishers they do not nullify your ranks for a flank or rear charge, you will still probably have +5 static CR when they charge....of course the problem is a unit of 10 gets, what, 31 S 4 attacks on the charge if they pick the Dance of Extra Attacks? That is of course assuming they all get into combat. Or do they not count as having dual hand weapons (so 21 S 4 attacks). All in all much better to charge them, cause even if they pick the Dance of Strike First, they go down to S 3.

Mister Hat
10-06-2007, 20:04
I echo much of what has been said.

The biggest pain with WEs is the 5+ wood spirit save. You need magic missiles and magic weapons to deal with those. Luckily O&G have access to some cheap and effective weapons.

I disagree with the advice about chariots - I think they are great vs WEs, especially the gobbo ones. Most WEs are immune to psychology and so cannot flee as a charge reaction. That means your chariots can generally get into base contact. With a character in the chariot (he doesn't have to be expensive) armed with a magic weapon you can do some damage.

Also, squig hoppers(who, lets face it, aren't the most predictable of units) can charge WEs hiding in woods quite easily. Remember they don't have to be able to see the enemy at the start of their turn to charge them. This is a big advantage against units lurking 2" inside a wood. Try not to charge wardancers with them, though. If the dancers strike first you will be in a bit of a hit or miss situation.

Other than that the advice about Combat Res being your friend is the best advice. Taking orcs, with their higher toughness, will go some way to preventing losses before you strike back.

warlord hack'a
10-06-2007, 21:07
getting savages does work nicely, they will not be chargepulled as that would mean the woodleves coming closer than 8 inch to your front line, which also means they get charged not only by the savages (who will fail their charge when the woodies flee) but also by either a boar chariot (which DO work against Woodelves, I know from personal experience, but see more on chariots below) or by some wolfboyz or spiderriders.

And remember: wardancers and dryads are immune to psychology, meaning they can not flee from a chrage. Wait, this rule is so important against We that I will say it again: units that are immune to psychology for whatever reason can not flee as a charge reaction.

so this means that: either a woodelf unit can flee form a charge instead of stand and shoot (the archer part) or it has to stay where it is when it gets charged, making chariots very effecitve indeed (this combined with treesinging which usually leaves only small corridors available on the table, small corridors where a chariot can squeeze through. Oh yes, and chariots can pivot on the spot for free, meaning they can move and then turn towards the threat, whereas a ranked up unit needs complicated manouvres to keep facing the woodelves.

You will need some magic defence though to stop the most annoying treesinging attempts. What also works well against treesinging: a cheap gobbo unit: park it in a forest asap, then when the forest gets treesung the unit will get damage (who cares) but the forest will not move! So you sacrifice one or two gobbo units to keep an open field for your orcs to move through.

so to summarize what I would take:

gobbo on wolf as suicide gobbo (wollopas one hit wunda and brimstone bauble or tricksy trinket) OR black orc BSB with spirit totem
black orc bigboss on boar with Ulag axe, hvy armour, enchanted shield (general)
night gobbo shaman lvl 1 with 2 dispel scrolls
22 svg orcs with spears, FC
2*25 night gobbo's each with one or maybe 2 fanatics
2* 5 spiderriders with musician
2* orc boar chariot
doomdiver

that leaves 100 points to spare if you take only 2 fanatics in total and the suicide gobbo option to take out his great eagle / general). If you take the BSB option you have only 30 some points to spare.

Shimmergloom
11-06-2007, 00:13
His elves are probably hiding in the woods. So you really need 2 units of 7 or 8 squig hoppers and 2 or 3 units of 5 spider riders to flush them out of the woods.

I'd actually scrap the fanatics cause he's going to learn to just draw them out with his eagle or hide in the woods so it does you no good.

Save the points for a few games and don't take fanatics. Then when he doesn't expect you to have fanatics and starts rushing his dryads at you, you'll have fanatics again to take them out. Also drop all the spears on those units. Spears on goblins are a huge waste of points. If you are forcibly playing wsyiwig, and are using bfsp night gobbos, then just cut the spears bottoms off to make them look like daggers. And now you'll have hw/shield night gobbos.

Finally make sure you enforce the no terrain within 12" of the center.

Omegakai
11-06-2007, 00:43
squig hoper's > Wood evles. that is all.

Lord_Byron
11-06-2007, 08:13
Squig herds aren't too bad either. Cheap, fight hard, wont panic, and pop nicely when defeated in combat.

Wood elf archery is weaker at long range, so don't feel like you have to rush into his traps or anything (except with squig herds). Get more shamans. Hang back and blast with magic. Stick them with black orcs, black orc characters or snotlings to keep them casting. Meet him with fanatics when he closes.

A doom diver would be better than a rock lobba against the wood elf force listed.

Keep the wolf riders hidden until the last turn, when you rush them out to seize or contest table quarters.

The trick when playing against woodies is to concentrate on not losing instead of focusing on winning. Play for a draw. He might just get impatient, make a mistake and give you a victory.