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skott4991
09-06-2007, 17:56
Where/what are the rules for base sizes between man sized figures is it like 40k where you can go bigger but not smaller or do you have to stick with whats in the box?

Negativemoney
09-06-2007, 19:29
you MUST stick with what is in the box.

The only exception would be bases on warmachines as the base does not matter (save hellcannon and Stank) because its always based on the warmachines profile.

Gorbad Ironclaw
09-06-2007, 21:29
In Warhammer, each unit have an assigned base size, and thats what it should be on. There are no rules allowing you to put them on a different base.

skott4991
09-06-2007, 22:01
I was thinking switching between 20mm and 25mm.

theunwantedbeing
09-06-2007, 22:05
Base size stays constant,as there are several items that grant bonuses dependant on those in base contact,bigger bases leads to unfair advantages.
Similarly smaller bases reduce number of models in contact,allowing the model with the smaller than normal base more survivability as less models get to attack it.

etc etc etc
The base you get in the box is generally the correct size base.

mav1971
10-06-2007, 00:08
In my opinion they should put all 1 wound models on 25mm bases to make it fair. It seems to mean the only reason for different size bases is the size of the model. A lowly Empire soldier or Bretonian peasant are on a 20mm base while so are a high elf or dwarf. But a chaos warrior is on a 25mm as is an orc.

sulla
10-06-2007, 00:21
In my opinion they should put all 1 wound models on 25mm bases to make it fair. It seems to mean the only reason for different size bases is the size of the model. A lowly Empire soldier or Bretonian peasant are on a 20mm base while so are a high elf or dwarf. But a chaos warrior is on a 25mm as is an orc.

it represents the training and discipline of the models too. Savage or poorly trained races like chaos and Orcs just don't have the tightly disciplined ranks of races like dwarves and elves. They fight more as individuals and mobs so they don't get the benefit of the smaller bases. As the game has progressed through the editions, the models have grown to fill up their bases fully. Orcs never used to be this big.

ZomboCom
10-06-2007, 00:27
it represents the training and discipline of the models too. Savage or poorly trained races like chaos and Orcs just don't have the tightly disciplined ranks of races like dwarves and elves.

Chaos? Poorly trained? WS5 I5 basic troopers?

It's much more an issue of model size and ranking up frankly.

But to answer the original question, no you cannot change base sizes in fantasy like you can in 40k.

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-06-2007, 03:40
Weapon skill doesn't have anything to do with that kind of training. A chaos warrior is individually very skilled, but they also fight much more as an individual, than as a unit.

Thats how they are poorly trained, in unit/formation combat. It's just not something they do. Hence the bigger, more dispersed formations you get with bigger bases.

Ganymede
10-06-2007, 04:33
Weapon skill doesn't have anything to do with that kind of training. A chaos warrior is individually very skilled, but they also fight much more as an individual, than as a unit.

Thats how they are poorly trained, in unit/formation combat. It's just not something they do. Hence the bigger, more dispersed formations you get with bigger bases.

I don't see where it says that in the Chaos warrior fluff entry. Honestly, I think you are making this stuff up.

Gorbad Ironclaw
10-06-2007, 07:21
Not really, but your right, it doesn't say that directly. However, look at it like this. Being a chaos warrior is ultimately about proving yourself to your chosen god(s), and making there attention focus on you. Not your unit, or the guy/girl/thing fighting next to you. It's all about you. Ultimately, everybody turn to chaos of selfish reasons, they might have various reasons for it, but ultimately, it's selfish. You are the important one, you and you alone. Everybody else is just obstacles thats in the way. Seems to me that would breed a fighting style thats much more individualy based, rather than unit based. Imperial swordsmen know they need to work together to survive. Chaos warriors are much more powerful individually, and they have a completly different goal.

So yeah, it's something I made up, however, I do think it makes sense. Of course, I'm not at all sure thats actually the thinking behind it, likely it's more to do with the models and how they look, but still.

Brother Siccarius
10-06-2007, 08:34
Not really, but your right, it doesn't say that directly. However, look at it like this. Being a chaos warrior is ultimately about proving yourself to your chosen god(s), and making there attention focus on you. Not your unit, or the guy/girl/thing fighting next to you. It's all about you. Ultimately, everybody turn to chaos of selfish reasons, they might have various reasons for it, but ultimately, it's selfish. You are the important one, you and you alone. Everybody else is just obstacles thats in the way. Seems to me that would breed a fighting style thats much more individualy based, rather than unit based. Imperial swordsmen know they need to work together to survive. Chaos warriors are much more powerful individually, and they have a completly different goal.

So yeah, it's something I made up, however, I do think it makes sense. Of course, I'm not at all sure thats actually the thinking behind it, likely it's more to do with the models and how they look, but still.

Actually in SoC the champion of Tzeentch fell to the Changer's powers in a search to save his son. Too bad the Champion was then beheaded in front of that son during SoC and the leadership was given to the son.

Festus
10-06-2007, 08:49
Hi

Gorbad is correct: In the Beginning (from 1st ed onwards) , the Bases were to differentiate between hordes and ranked units, with the smaller bases being an advantage.

Thight formations were able get more attacks in, and could manoeuver more easily.

Nowadays, the models have grown from 25 over 28 to 30 or even 32 mm, and as such use much more space on the bases. Sometimes they are a bitch to rank up properly on 20mm now.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
10-06-2007, 09:43
This is the official page for base sizes:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/base-chart/assets/base-chart.pdf

Steam tank has the biggest base size of 80X120 while Giants are still 50X50?

Brother Siccarius
10-06-2007, 15:17
This is the official page for base sizes:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/base-chart/assets/base-chart.pdf

Steam tank has the biggest base size of 80X120 while Giants are still 50X50?

Must be an old one, because that base aint no 50x50 anymore.

Festus
10-06-2007, 19:27
Bit the Giant still has 50x50mm AFA the rules are concerned. Just having them add a different base does not change that. Or else my Great Taurus still is on a 40mm base - as this is the one he came with.

Festus

Rabbit_on_Rampage
11-06-2007, 05:15
Weapon skill doesn't have anything to do with that kind of training. A chaos warrior is individually very skilled, but they also fight much more as an individual, than as a unit.

Thats how they are poorly trained, in unit/formation combat. It's just not something they do. Hence the bigger, more dispersed formations you get with bigger bases.

Chaos warriors are some of the best fighters in the warhammer world. This includes discipline, and tactical advantage associated with combat finess. I think you're making this stuff up. Khorne Warriors are also completely calm before they enter battle, which is a commonly misundestood part of their history. (That was an example)

N1AK
04-07-2007, 14:09
Sorry to bring a nigh on month old post back from the dead, but it seems better than starting a near identical thread.

I know their is no 'rule' saying you can use different base sizes, but are their any 'rules' on allowed base sizes in the warhammer rulebook? Surely if it doesn't say you must use the base the model is provided with, then putting it on a different size base isn't breaking the rules?
Then you get the confusion of things like Shieldbearer Dwarves, a dwarf lord comes on a 20mm base, nowhere does it say that bearers make him take two spaces (just that he is US 2) so could I huddle them and fit him on one base.

I ask because I am doing a unit of Dwarf Rangers armed with: Great Weapons, Hand Weapons, Shields and Throwing axes. With all this kit I would quite like to go to town on the models, and to fit this I would like to put them on 25mm bases. IMO this actually is a disadvantage to me...

NakedFisherman
04-07-2007, 14:40
I ask because I am doing a unit of Dwarf Rangers armed with: Great Weapons, Hand Weapons, Shields and Throwing axes. With all this kit I would quite like to go to town on the models, and to fit this I would like to put them on 25mm bases. IMO this actually is a disadvantage to me...

It's a disadvantage until a stone thrower hits the unit.

Use 20mm bases. They are the correct size for Dwarf Rangers.

Gekiganger
04-07-2007, 16:17
Not really, but your right, it doesn't say that directly. However, look at it like this. Being a chaos warrior is ultimately about proving yourself to your chosen god(s), and making there attention focus on you. Not your unit, or the guy/girl/thing fighting next to you. It's all about you. Ultimately, everybody turn to chaos of selfish reasons, they might have various reasons for it, but ultimately, it's selfish. You are the important one, you and you alone. Everybody else is just obstacles thats in the way. Seems to me that would breed a fighting style thats much more individualy based, rather than unit based. Imperial swordsmen know they need to work together to survive. Chaos warriors are much more powerful individually, and they have a completly different goal.

So yeah, it's something I made up, however, I do think it makes sense. Of course, I'm not at all sure thats actually the thinking behind it, likely it's more to do with the models and how they look, but still.

Skaven are complete pap on their own and they're the embodiment of selfishness and greed ;)

Chaos are much more likely to be fanatical worshipers of their warlord percieved god blessed by their patron, giving them a certain degree of selflessness (especially slaaneshi warbands) than some imperial peasant boy going to war ' 'cos he was told to'. Besides, the worst thing that can happen to an imperial soldier who disobeys is death, imagine what chaos can do.


Dwarves should really be put on a 20mm base, It's fitting with every other dwarf in the army and it removes the chance of you being accused of cheesey gameplay.

gortexgunnerson
04-07-2007, 17:33
I know their is no 'rule' saying you can use different base sizes, but are their any 'rules' on allowed base sizes in the warhammer rulebook? Surely if it doesn't say you must use the base the model is provided with, then putting it on a different size base isn't breaking the rules?
Then you get the confusion of things like Shieldbearer Dwarves, a dwarf lord comes on a 20mm base, nowhere does it say that bearers make him take two spaces (just that he is US 2) so could I huddle them and fit him on one base

GW has published base sizes for the majority of models. Thou this could be argued is not a rule I could also argue that just because it says in the rule book I hit on say 4+ then surely this means hitting on 2s isn't breaking the rules because the first section only told me what to do it isnt a rule :D :D :skull:

Base size matters and effects the model interactions in many ways both good and bad, it is impossible to make claims like im disadvantaging myself.

On the note of a shieldbearer thou that is a crafty one, as the rules havent been upgraded then it means a shieldbearer Lord should be on a 20*20 base. Thou the screams of Rules abuse would be audiable for miles around.

N1AK
04-07-2007, 17:56
GW has published base sizes for the majority of models. Thou this could be argued is not a rule I could also argue that just because it says in the rule book I hit on say 4+ then surely this means hitting on 2s isn't breaking the rules because the first section only told me what to do it isnt a rule :D :D

Base size matters and effects the model interactions in many ways both good and bad, it is impossible to make claims like im disadvantaging myself.

On the note of a shieldbearer thou that is a crafty one, as the rules havent been upgraded then it means a shieldbearer Lord should be on a 20*20 base. Thou the screams of Rules abuse would be audiable for miles around.

It's not quite the same thing as the rules DO state you hit on a 4+, a better example would be moving terrain around during a game (as their is nothing forbidding it) :evilgrin: although the underlying point IS valid = simply saying theirs no rules against (or for) it doesn't make it allowed.

Also in the case of war machines I always wondered if building the cannons pointing straight up was worth it just to see peoples faces when they are trying to hit its new 'mini' profile.

And another interesting question brought up by this is, if you use counts as on a war machine, does it have to have the same dimensions are the current GW model? Otherwise you are changing the size of the model. So no old style Elf Bolt Throwers etc.

As to the whole disadvantaging yourself thing, I think it is possible. My friends Death Company are on Terminator sized bases, and it nerfs them in combat because they get swamped.
I think personally I'd allow base size changes where I cant see an advantage being gained from it, if someone is sticking troops on bases to abuse the rules I'd draw the line :cheese:

Ninsaneja
05-07-2007, 08:21
I can't see any reason to change base sizes. If your models don't fit, use a rank base instead and use less models (I. E. four models on a five-man base for your front rank.)

N1AK
05-07-2007, 09:11
Tis another idea :) although I can see that causing more trouble "But you only have 4 models in each rank, so no rank bonus", "I Thought that that unit only had 16 models etc..." and to be honest 16 Dwarves actually being 20 just seems a bit silly.
Thanks for your input Ninsaneja, I shall think about this further while quaffing beer at the hold.

EvC
05-07-2007, 10:24
This is the official page for base sizes:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer/base-chart/assets/base-chart.pdf

Steam tank has the biggest base size of 80X120 while Giants are still 50X50?


This is out of date and can be generally used but some parts have to be ignored. The War Hydra for example goes on a 50mm base, not a chariot base- otherwise the times it's displayed in the Rulebook it's been misrepresented.

Personally I think they should just make an errata saying any monster with 5 or more wounds may go on a 50x75mm base or 50x50mm, like the Giant has now. Both have very minor advantages and disadvantages, but it'd be damn handy for all larger monsters to have...

xenotaph
06-07-2007, 20:06
I am a bit confused..

So are people saying that goblins are more disciplined and have more training than orcs therefore they are on smaller bases???????

theunwantedbeing
06-07-2007, 20:18
Yes goblins are more organised and disciplined than orcs.
They just have terrible leadership and lack actual ability and muscle to give them any real benefit over their larger,stronger less disciplined brethren.

The reason we have different sized bases is because of the sizes of the models,no other reason.
If it was really the case then chaos warriors would be on smaller bases than chaos marauders,saurus would be on smaller bases than skinks....etc etc.

In general base sizes remain pretty constant with no real problems....its the conflicting "official base size charts" that cause all the problems as they arent updated with each new army and arent all updated at the same time.

Belerophon709
06-07-2007, 21:58
.........or the base-sizes are simply there for the same reason Festus mentioned they were there for in the earlier versions. Maybe they're intended to be the size they are for the sake of game-balance...
If chaos-warriors are less disciplined or less coherent as a unit, shouldn't their mounted counter-parts (chaos knights) be on larger bases than regular knights as well?

Ninsaneja
07-07-2007, 02:32
In the case of mounted models it is the horse and not the rider that determines most of the fighting space. Chaos steeds are about as disciplined as regular warhorses.

Chaos warriors and marauders are about the same when it comes to personal space! Skinks, while having a larger relative base size to actual size, are on a smaller base than saurus because their size simply does not permit a huge fighting space - think about it, they are as small as a child yet take as much space as a regular human soldier!

ZomboCom
08-07-2007, 12:45
There is absolutely no such rule anywhere about the base size being due to discipline and training. That is utter tosh.

The base sizes are as they are for two reasons. Firstly, for game ballance, and secondly because some models simply won't fit on smaller base sizes.

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-07-2007, 13:22
There is absolutely no such rule anywhere about the base size being due to discipline and training. That is utter tosh.



:rolleyes:

Someone needs to read whats written instead of read half of it and make assumptions.

No one said it was a rule. I was offering it as an additional explernation as to why some models originally was put on different sized bases. It have never been a rule, but it have been something that was mentioned as a consideration when making the unit.

Pendragon
08-07-2007, 13:56
How about warmachine crews then? The base size reference sheets lists the base size for war machines as "-". Am I basically free to put the crew on any kind of base I want?
Case in point, I use a DoW cannon for my mortal warband, and converted up some marauders to act as crew, and mounted them on the 25mm bases they were supplied with (and not the 20mm crew was supplied with).
Though I doubt anyone would care about their base size since warmachine crews tend to be largely insignificant by themselves, what would be the official ruling on this?

/Joel

Ninsaneja
08-07-2007, 16:49
You can't change the warmachine crew, and the cannon doesn't have a base.

Bloodknight
08-07-2007, 17:18
I think nobody would care. If anything, 25mm bases are a disadvantage.

Zapherion
08-07-2007, 19:35
personally i think that the base size is actually representative of the reach of the model. an orc has much bigger and longer arms than a man a dwarf or an elf and so definatly deserves the bigger base. With chaos warriors, it represents the warriors tendency to fight as an individual in a unit as he swings around attacking anything that comes close (they are also pretty big like the orcs)
to go back to the previous argument in this thread, i would agree that chaos warriors are not trained to fight in units, and while they appear to be excellent individual fighters, this is because they have to be to survive the rigours of the chaos life. in a fight for control of a warband you dont tend to have a unit with you, its one on one.

theunwantedbeing
08-07-2007, 20:46
So bigger reach = less models get to fight enemies with a smaller reach?
well thought out ^_^
(harmlessly poking fun,nothing more)

It's down to the model size!!!*stamps foot*

Chaos warriors are too big to fit on 20mm bases,so they go on 25mm bases.
Same for chaos characters.
Marauders just get 25mm bases as you often see character's in those units,and it would be a paint to have them on 25 and 20mm bases as they fit together horribly.

Orcs just generally arent in goblin units and the other way as well.
Its down to size nothing more.

Chaos warriors are hellishly orderly,sure when they are roaming around its every man for himself,but in a battle its the enemy first,then your mate standing next to you thats the target.
Chaos warriors are incredibly skilled at fighting in formation,they train at it all the time.
Their models are just too big to fit on 20mm bases,so they get put on 25mm bases.

Krusk
08-07-2007, 21:30
It's just a matter of Orcs and Chaos warriors being physically bigger than other dudes. It would be inappropriate to put them on smaller bases than that. Difference being of course, that Orcs are big puddings who are not generally as tough, pound for pound, as Chaos Warriors.

Zapherion
08-07-2007, 22:13
actually it was well thought out. being bigger would restict how many people could fight against smaller people. imagine 5 sumo wrestlers fighting against 5 dwarfs. only a couple o the sumo wrestlers could get at the dwarfs even tho they have a far superior reach

Pendragon
09-07-2007, 00:45
You can't change the warmachine crew, and the cannon doesn't have a base.

But it doesn't say what base size to use for the crew anywhere. It does not either, like the O&G list for instance, state wich race the crew is.
Neither is there a official mercenary cannon model, and thus no standard bases supplied.
So, playing devil's advocate here, is there really anything written about wich is the correct base size for DoW cannon crew?

RAI and common sense probably says 20mm, but there's no RAW backup for it, is there?

The reason I use 25mm bases is that it looks better, gives me more room on the bases to add scenery and gubbins, and fits in with my other units better.
I doubt that anyone will complain, but if anyone is petty enough to be bothered by it, it would serve him right not be able to find RAW backup for it (and if it REALLY bothered him, I'd probably rebase them on 40mm bases out of spite...).

/Joel - will however base his marauder-based DoW infantry units on 20mm bases.

Hellebore
29-07-2007, 10:05
Hi all.

I've seen all the tooing and froing.

I want to use Saurus as skeleton warriors, and skinks as zombies in an undead lizardman army.

Do you think that having saurus on 25mm bases would be too advantageous for opponents to play against? I just liked the idea of the weak pathetic skinks equally in zombies, whilst the better saurus act as skeletons.

Even though the base size is different, would it affect things too much?

Hellebore

Urgat
29-07-2007, 10:17
Yes goblins are more organised and disciplined than orcs.
They just have terrible leadership and lack actual ability and muscle to give them any real benefit over their larger,stronger less disciplined brethren.

So black orcs should be on small bases? Sorry, it obviously can't always work like that.

I've always wondered why they don't put legal base sizes in the army books. Seems like plain evidence to me, but heh, whatever.

EvC
29-07-2007, 10:18
It could well do. If you play a Dwarf player then 18 hits from a Grudge Thrower smashing into your Skeletons becoming several less is not positive.

Perhaps you could squeeze a very few onto 20mm bases, then use 40mm bases to fill out the rest of the unit, putting 3 Saurus onto each base to represent 4 Skeletons. That way it's entirely legal.

fattdex
20-10-2007, 08:09
Hi,
I purchased a gigantic model (http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/7384/crapyw2.jpg) to use as beasts of chaos giant. I'm a little worried that a 75mmx50mm base will have it fall over, is it legal to mount it on say a 75mm x 75mm base? Another idea that I had was to use a 75mm x 75mm flat piece of plasticard/tin for a foundation (flocked over, at the sides) and glue a 75x50mm base on top of that, that can be 'trod on' by other units. would I have any problems with this?

EDIT: wrote 100mm, meant 75mm

ZomboCom
20-10-2007, 08:23
fattdex: The technically legal size for as giant base is still 50x50, but 75x50 is also acceptable since that's what the new one comes with. Any other base size is illegal.

Your idea of a larger base with a smaller (75x50) area marked outwould be ok, though not ideal, and certainly annoying.

fattdex
20-10-2007, 08:37
Thanks for the info. After a bit of reading i also realised that anything larger is massive cannon fodder.

What about, using a 50x50mm base, that is mounted on top of a clear piece of plastic for stability (such as a blank cd topper)? it would certainly slide under movement trays much easier than the flocked idea.

Hvidponi
20-10-2007, 22:01
This is pretty simple...
Base are an important part of game balance... this would be like saying, I feel Saurus warriors would be better fit with WS 6 so I use that... WTF?
Stop the madness, play with the rules while in "normal" games... I would be angry (or at least annoyed) if someone used incorrect bases...
If you want to use your own rules, do that, but be sure that your opponet wants to play with your rules too...