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Nickn
10-06-2007, 16:19
every time i play khorne i mite as well give up after deployment because we generally cant get any spells off then because of that hes faster and more harrd hitting ive tried tar pit but chosen knights of khorne on yer flank = dead unit in 1-2 turns that can even kill a 30 man unit that fast ive tried throwng flyers behind em and forcing them to go for my flyers but that doesnt work as he we cant flee from charges and they are just a waste of points so how do tomb kings beat khorne

im not calling khorne cheesy im just saynig tomb kings cant win. :cries:

Mister Hat
10-06-2007, 20:15
Agreed that the undead vs khorne match-up isn't easy because undead of any flavour rely on magic. It would help if you let us know what your opponent takes. There are ways around it, but only if we know what you are facing.

fubukii
10-06-2007, 20:19
well thats a tough thing since tks generally are a pretty hard army to play, and all of your advantages are negated by those lovely frenzied troops who get as many attacks as you have models in your units. Id suggest Possibly stone throwers, ushabti and tomb scorpions killing blow can def put a hurtin on some knights, while so can str 6 attacks. other then those units id say not mcuh esle will be very effective.

theunwantedbeing
10-06-2007, 20:34
You need to stop him marching and make sure his charges are against cheap units and they are angled to deflect his unit to one side,so that you can flank it with something thats able to do damage.
eg. ushabti.

He will have to hold,as frenzied troops cant flee as a charge reaction,allowing you to crush his troops for a very minimal loss.

Catapults are useful as well,sure you wont be likely to get 2 shots a turn with each of them,but that doesnt mean they wont be effective.

warlord hack'a
10-06-2007, 21:12
can you summon at all? I though not, but if you can then that will be your friend.. Otherwise, try indeed the above: have him charge something and then overrun and then you countercharge a flank, not the front as chosen chaos knights chew through almost anything you put in front or at the back fo them. Remeber: nromal knights are scary on the chagre due to S% from the lance, but chosen chaos knights do not have lances, they simply have a very high S, so even when youcharge them you will get hurt back..

warlord hack'a
10-06-2007, 21:13
and do remember also: if you win combat his frenzy ends immediately meaning that liek any normal unit he will autobreak if you outnumber him..

Nickn
10-06-2007, 22:26
winning combat is next to impossible after all the wounds i suffer
as for the llist he uses idont know upgrades and stuff but here it goes
Lord - horse + magic items
exalted chamo + magic items
2 units of 15 warriors withadd HW
15 chosen warriors with GW
5 Chosen knights
5 chaos knights
Large beast herd tons of ungors
7 furies
wolves as shields for knights
1 unit of 25 marauders

i think thats all
all units have full command
and alll units have MoK

superduperkoopatrooper
10-06-2007, 22:47
I'm afraid my knowledge of tomb kings is pretty limited but anyway...

Maybe just forget about magic? Take the obligatory 1 priest then take awesome choppy combat heroes and a tomb king. Combined with chariots, ushabti, scorpions and bone giants you'd have a fairly hitty force. As most have said, use cheap units to set up the best combats for your more powerful stuff.

Going toe to toe with khorne may sound like a bad idea but you've just got to use every trick in the book to exploit frenzy.

Neknoh
10-06-2007, 23:22
How many points do you play?

Btw, two SSC landing on the Chosen = massive pointsloss for him

Nickn
10-06-2007, 23:40
normally around 2k

he puts the knights on the flanks and the chosen warriors in the middle the other foot soldiers surround it then the beast herd and wolves act as shieldss

Neknoh
11-06-2007, 00:04
Beastherds are easy to scare away with skullchuckers.

Btw, that unit of Chosen Knights costs ca. 500 points, without any characters added in, if the lord enters, we are talking approx. 800 points of unit to devastate.

By charging, Ushabti and Chariot units should have a field day on the Warriors, trust me on this.

Nickn
11-06-2007, 11:18
actually that unit is only 320 i have accopy of his list but he does add the exalted champ to it

Neknoh
11-06-2007, 11:50
9 Chosen Knights = 405 pts
Khornate+Full Command = ca. 100 points
Exalted Champ + items, steed and mark = ca. 210 pts.

15 Chosen Warriors + Khorne + Command + GW = ca. 400 pts

We are talking ca. 1100 pts in two units here, you are beeing direly lead behind the light my friend.

Let's see...

Another 500 for the two Warrior units
370 for the Lord
270 for the five Knights
The Beastherd should go for ca. 120 pts
Doggies are low costed though, 36 is a fair estimate without an actual number of dogs.
Furies go for 95 points
Marauders go for 200

Your friend is approx. 600 points or so over the limit you know

Nickn
11-06-2007, 14:27
here is his actual list believe it or not hes actually not over

Lord MoK mount black maul chaos armor enchanted shield 354

Exalted Champ Mok berserker sword or glaive or whatever enchanted shield 185

15 warriors HW + shield khone standerd 282
14 warriors chosen GW standerd khorne 365
20 maurauders flails standerd 150
5 chosen knights Mok 270
5 knights Mok 210
5 doggies 30

7 furies 95
beast herd 5 gors 15 ungors 95

this all comes out to 2006
the actual list isnt wh i thought it was earlier so ignore that posting

Darkspear
11-06-2007, 14:46
this is interesting. I always wanted to play against khorne but i never had the chance.
my suggest is to deploy ur units wide and keep him guessing. then load up ur tk and price in a chariot unit facing his weaker flank. try to roll up as many units he can especially the khonate units(that have no characters).

actually with 7 DD, ur magic can still work...mabbe 1 successful incarntation a turn assuming u have spell casting items(those with power lvl).

Khorne is tough. Try it and tell us ur results

fubukii
11-06-2007, 23:31
after seein his list be happy he doesnt just run 5 man units with mok or khornate minotaurs! Take some caapults and ushabti and you should be able to mop him up nicely

Neknoh
12-06-2007, 10:16
here is his actual list believe it or not hes actually not over

Lord MoK mount black maul chaos armor enchanted shield 354

Exalted Champ Mok berserker sword or glaive or whatever enchanted shield 185

15 warriors HW + shield khone standerd 282
14 warriors chosen GW standerd khorne 365
20 maurauders flails standerd 150
5 chosen knights Mok 270
5 knights Mok 210
5 doggies 30

7 furies 95
beast herd 5 gors 15 ungors 95

this all comes out to 2006
the actual list isnt wh i thought it was earlier so ignore that posting

the earlier list posted incorporated another 15 warriors with Additional Handweapons as well as a further 4 Chosen Knights, THAT list was over the points, thisone isnt

warlord hack'a
12-06-2007, 10:41
anything that says no armour save allowed is your friend (if you have nay magic items at all that can do this take them)
anything with high S is your second best friend

cheap throwaway units to make him charge awkwardly are your third friend

an luck is your fourth..

Timber_Wolf
12-06-2007, 13:48
well, i actually play tk (there doesnīt seem to be sooo many tk players around these days...nevermind)
from all armies iīve ever faced, chaos, and khorne (and slaanesh, with some lists) are, IMHO, the hardestone to beat.
normaly, you can use frenzy for yourself, but with undead, you looses your greatest advantage - the "flee" option.
to counter this, iīve worked out some counter strategies (i donīt tell you they work all well and good and such stuff, but it makes winning a bit easier ;) )
if you know, you face khorne (so no tournament army), you can load on cheap, small units to do the same as other units do...
1. use a unit of 5 light horsemen and move them up to the choosen knights of doom - heīll have to charge. you cnaīt flee, but the 5 guys will get butchered and he has to overrun - on your turn, use some mobile stuff, like a giant (or two, against this stuff...) to charge his flanks (movement magic works here quite well) and do some beating. in addition, use a tomb scorpion or some carrion to get a 3d6 pursue movement...
2. same as above, but a bit more evil / desperate (depends on the points of view ;) ) use your 5 horse men and charge the knights in the flank / rear. they get butchered and he has to overrun - 3d6 into nowhere - you lost some points, but if he looses one turn with his uber units fighting hth, it costs him morethan you...
3. if you prefere shooting, get 2 ssc and drop 4 plates per turn on his head
donīt chooses your infantry to go into melee with this unit. they are great blockers, but this guys will crunsh a whole unit in one turn...

all these appoaches require strong magic presence. he has 6 dice (if i counted correctly) one possibility is taking a high priest with plaque and cloak (and some other stuff), this guy throws 6 dice per phase for himself and 3 princes as support. you can attatch the princesto ssc the first 2 turn to get some more chances to get a shoot off and later let them join infantry guys for some extra hth punch.

for myself, i play the same list for about 3(?) years every time i grab my tomb kings (ok, not EVERY time, but about 90%) i prefer lists without tweaking for a special opponent, so i had to work out some other way to beat chaos (i donīt like using a high priest without a king...) - beware, i normaly play 2.5k games, so maybe not everything fits into your list

king - destroyer, collar
prince - chariot, chariot of fire, greatweapon
priest - cloak, jar
priest - hose, 2 scrolls

20 skellies with hw/shields/la, champ and standard, banner of undiying legion
20 skellies as above, without magical banner
5 chariots, standart
10 bowmen
10 bowmen
5 light horsemen
1 swarm base

4 ushabti
scorpion
scorpion
3 carrion

giant
catapult with skulls

the main idead should be obvious, with a strong chariot flank, lots of tunneling stuff, some march blockers and a whole bunch of crap skelletons with a killer king inside the first unit.
against chaos, block march moves with the carrion and the scorps (you donīt have to tunnel them). you wouldnīt get much spells out, so try keeping the king in range to your catapult to cast smithing on it about 4 times for the first 2 turns, after that, switch to movement spells. the big guys are used against the hard stuff - the giant agianst kniths, theushabti against footies. the horsemen and bowmen are your sacrifica units, move them up and let them die to diverd the dreaded knigth charges
if youīre able to charge the knits in the flnka with the giant, keep your infantry back and try to move them into the other flank. if your infantry is charged (most likely), do a counter charge with the giant and keep the infantry unit up to full (and ALWAY put them in 4x5 ranks instead of 5x4 - the extra skelleton will die without doing anything, but this way, you keep your ranks longer). after beeing in htht, cast smithing on your kings unit - after the new tk faq (well, the only one, so not really "new"), you can use your single attack in the magic phase to use the destroyers special attack...thatīs 4 chances for killing blow against 2 guys on horse each turn (and, if one of them is the lord / champion...all the better...)
hope this helps :)

Nickn
12-06-2007, 16:36
the first list i made had no points or anything it was purely from memory of what i thought he used when i asked himm for a copy of his list he gave me the second list i posted. :o

thanks for all the replies ill try them out and tell you what happens

barontuman
13-06-2007, 00:49
So here's an idea, simply limit him to the 2000 points exactly. Those 6 points may actually deny him a whole unit. This is why in my gaming circles, 2000 points is 2000 points and not one single point over.

My theory is this; If those extra couple points don't matter, then it won't hurt to drop them right? If they DO matter, then you're taking an unfair advantage. Armies with expensive models are hit much harder by this rule than armies with cheaper models.

When you play the game right, every point should matter.

Red_Lep
13-06-2007, 01:49
If you can borrow the models you might give the construct list a try, if he'll let you use it.

Rules here http://oz.games-workshop.com/news/oz/journal/assets/GiantWarriorsofKhemri.pdf

That Guy
13-06-2007, 04:57
Dear Lord, that man is begging to be smacked by war machines. I'd take two screaming skulls anyways, but especially against this guy. I wouldn't use Skulls of the Foe....they ARE immune to psychology after all.

Beyond that, like other people have said, use cheap units to redirect his big blocks. I recommend archers rather than light cavalry. Archers can, first, help pick off his support units which will make it easier to redirect his charges. Then, they can redirect the charge. Then, hit him in the flank with Chariots or Ushabti or a Tomb King. The great thing about hitting Chosen Knights in the flank is that you only need to kill one and then he can't attack back and you're going to win combat (and hopefully outnumber) and then he autobreaks. It's fantastic....if you pull it off.

To sum it all up: War Machines make a mockery of his expensive infantry. Use them. Also, redirect his charges to get flanks.

One last important thing to keep in mind: every unit in your army is cheaper than his unit of Chosen Knights. Every. Single. One. Therefore, don't worry about sacrificing anything to get that flank charge. So it's your main block of 30 skeletons that costs 250 points. So what? You're setting up a 500 point unit for the kill. Completely worth it.

Nickn
13-06-2007, 12:10
thanks guys ill try to use some tips you gave me

and thanks red_lep i like that list a lot but im guessing its not egal for tournament play?

Scythe
13-06-2007, 12:53
So here's an idea, simply limit him to the 2000 points exactly. Those 6 points may actually deny him a whole unit. This is why in my gaming circles, 2000 points is 2000 points and not one single point over.

My theory is this; If those extra couple points don't matter, then it won't hurt to drop them right? If they DO matter, then you're taking an unfair advantage. Armies with expensive models are hit much harder by this rule than armies with cheaper models.

When you play the game right, every point should matter.

Or he drops a single marauder, warrior or furry. Hardly any difference really. We play a lot more laid back. 5 pts over to get your unit to a round number and make it that better looking on the battlefield is not going to make much of a difference, but it makes the overall army that more visually appealing, which is a lot more important to us.

Sorry for going of topic, but making problems about being 6 pts over is not going to win you any games.

WusteGeist
14-06-2007, 07:07
Alright I will admit I have skimmed over the postings so if this is covered ignore it. Here we go.
FIRST
Khorne is known for its magic resistance, which only works if you cast a spell against the unit. TombKings have 1 spell that would work against. All the others can not have MR tossed against them.

Second
A tombking with liche priest, liche priest and liche priest is more magic than most armies can shut down. Your average khorne army is not going to make more than 8 to 10 dispel dice. That sounds impressive. Actually it is but what the TK list I just tossed out is more so.
The numbers
King 2 dice solo vaules
LP (liche priest) 2 dice added
LP 2 dice added
LP 2 dice added
Total bound dice in one turn with out anything else?
8 dice.

I hear what your all saying. Thats equal to what the Khorne is putting out. Only one small problem. You can easily lead the Khorne units around baiting charges and putting your crush units in position to over run and kill his units. For example, you take 5 fast cav dirt cheap and send them to die, set them at angle and oh look they over run, right in front of my King with DOE and 24 tomb guard with icon of rakaph. I blitz your flank, you loose combat massively and your frenzy just went poof. I out number cause fear and won combat. You are some mortal thats no longer frothing and the mouth because you just realized what trouble your in.

This takes care of one dispel die, and puts you with your over run in position to blitz his next unit. Khorne is the dog with a bone army. Treat it as such and you will be fine, come between that dog and its bone and your in trouble.

Scythe
14-06-2007, 11:05
Alright I will admit I have skimmed over the postings so if this is covered ignore it. Here we go.
FIRST
Khorne is known for its magic resistance, which only works if you cast a spell against the unit. TombKings have 1 spell that would work against. All the others can not have MR tossed against them.


Not really. Only Khorne Daemons have magic resistance (and those are not in the list). Everything else just generates dispel dice.

Nickn
14-06-2007, 12:42
ok heres the problem i try to goo as magic heravy as possible

i run High priest 6 dice
2 liche priests 4 dice
1 prince 1 dice
cascket 2 dice
13 total

turn 1 i get 1-2 spells off
turnn 2 i get 0 spells off
turn 4-5 my army is dead

why do i get no spells off because turn 1 he hides his furies behind the shield where they cant be shot
they charg the cascket kill the guard and the priest now i lose 4 dice

Deceiver_666
14-06-2007, 12:49
The other option is just to not waste points on magic, and create a list that can fight. as your spells probably wont be coming off too well anyway, may as well ignore them all together. with a list like:
Tomb King
Liche Priest
Tomb Prince
Tomb Prince / Icon Bearer

Then For core, mass blocks of skellie troops

Special, 2 unit of 4 ushabti and 2 scorpions to try and charge and killing blow characters.

Rare, 2 basic screaming skull catapults, cheap and deny the Chaos knights and warriors their AS


Or, if you want to go magic heavy to try and get something through, set up you characters as so:

Liche high priest w/mighty plaques 2x 3D6 with rerolls
Tomb Prince D6
Liche Priest 2D6
Liche priest 2D6
with casket of souls 2D6

for a total of 13 casting dice, and thats before items such as the hieratic jar, staff of ravening and banner of the undying legion! something will get through

WusteGeist
14-06-2007, 15:53
Nickn
Problem with your list is you have too much magic and not enough hand to hand power. Tomb king units are good but not against Khorne specially with kings to lead the units.

Deciver
your first list is more on the money but you have taken too much magic away. King Prince Priest Priest is more than likely the weakest you want to go, not King Prince Icon bearer priest(no where near enough magic that way).

Your second list shares the flaw of Nickn's too much magic not enough hand to hand. As I was trying to suggest earlier, the idea is to have magic superiority after you crush a few of his units with baited charges. To achieve this you need the mix of a good fighter type and the magic to back him. Too much magic means you have no fighter type, too little magic you don't have the magic needed to push the advantage once you get it.

Trust me I don't have a history hear yet, but I have a fairly decent track record with Tomb Kings and in fantasy. Stick to this method and you shall crush khorne and any other army out there. Once Tomb Kings get the magic edge they tend to win games.

Deceiver_666
14-06-2007, 18:16
the point of the first list was to just forget all about magic, why take 2 priests if you are up against 10 dispel dice? nothing will get through. just concentrate on killing

Hence where the second list came in, with 13 power dice, your magic becomeds useful, as you will probably get a few spells through each turn. i know the HLP character setup is expensive, but TK characters always are, some people run this setup as their normal list and totally dominate magic.
As the characters are expensive, just use lots of blocks of skellies and keep healing them, and win on CR, try and mke the enemy flee as much as possible.
chea additions such as scorpions and catapults are then all you need to supply kills.

Red_Lep
14-06-2007, 19:07
thanks guys ill try to use some tips you gave me

and thanks red_lep i like that list a lot but im guessing its not egal for tournament play?

I doubt GW tournaments would allow it but if its a local stores tournament they may allow it. If they don't then you could always just use it in friendly matches.

Neknoh
14-06-2007, 21:07
Hrmmm... by hiding behind his screen, he can NOT charge you in ANY way without you getting off magic at least once towards those Furies, furies are NOT large targets and therefore can NOT charge over intervening units.