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Skyweir
10-06-2007, 16:27
I've got a question.....

Say a character carries a flail and the enemy casts delectable torture on him. Does the character get +2 str on his attacks?
Technically we are not in the first round of combat, since the character isn't incombat and it's the magic phase, so he shouldn't.
But on the other hand, he is armed with a flail and the spell says he uses whatever weapons he has equipped.

Any thoughts?

Enoshima
10-06-2007, 17:58
the +2 strenght is for the first turn of combat.

The spells simply states that the character attacks the unit he is with, not that he engages combat with them.

also combat is fought in the combat phase 99% of the time, the attacks are made in the magic phase.

Also, using a flail doesn't give you +2 strength, only when used in the first round of combat does it give that.

In a normal battle, the character would still be using the flail after the first round, but since it is not the first turn, he wouldn't gain +2 strength.

I view the spell this way, they are attacks made, but not in combat, so definitly not in the first round of combat, so no +2 strength from using the flail (it simply works as a 2 handed weapon without bonus for the spell)

For other people: delectable torture is from the lore of slaanesh in the hordes of chaos book(took me a while to find it)

lokigod
10-06-2007, 18:19
It's the same thing with green fire and choppas on orcs you dont get it:(

Festus
10-06-2007, 19:20
Hi

I agree. It is not in combat...

and Enoshima - yes, I am drunk, and it is a very disturbing Avatar you have there :D

Festus

EvC
10-06-2007, 20:56
Interesting question! Makes me think, should such thinking be applied to the Banner of the Barrows when a unit or character is made to attack his own unit? This magic banner makes Wights always hit on a 3+ against the enemy, so when someone casts magic that makes them attack their own unit, do they roll to hit as normal?

Skyweir
10-06-2007, 21:22
Hmm, seems like people agree here.
I suppose the wording of the spells and the rules do lend themselves to this interpetation.
I'm not complaining though, since it is me the spell will be used at.

As for the Banner of the Barrows, I guess that would be the same thing. Since the rule is not simply "hit on 3+", but "hit the enemy on 3+". And their own unit is clearly not the enemy.
Still, it does seem a bit counter-intutive.

theunwantedbeing
10-06-2007, 23:02
I'de say a character with a flail does give +2 strength when he attacks his unit,its combat,and its not the second round.

Green fire doesnt give the bonus of a choppa as it counts it as an ongoing combat,and you dont get the choppa bonus in ongoing combat.

It's just as much a "combat" as with delectable torture.
So by the logic of "its not a combat so the bonus doesnt apply" means that great weapons dont have any effect,neither do magical close combat weapons(they wont work if its not close combat).

Green fire doesnt work on wights as they are immune to psychology.
Only delectable torture would apply.

EvC
10-06-2007, 23:28
Grrr-een Fire! One opponent casted that spell several times on a unit of Black Knights with the Banner of the Barrows, causing a good few kills...

Ganymede
11-06-2007, 02:45
The spell is very specific in the fact that the combat acts as if it was from an ongoing combat, and not a fresh combat. Therefore, no flail bonuses are used. If such a notation was not there, then the flails would come into play.

How about the incantation of righteous smiting though? Does it have the same wording?

Briohmar
11-06-2007, 11:25
As an advocate of the Dark Prince, one would think I would agree that the flail bonus would apply, I don't however. Just as I would not expect a lance to get a +2 St under the influence of the spell. The lance gets its strength from the momentum of being propelled forward by a speeding horse, a flail likewise gets its strength from its momentum, it is unlikely that a character would be swinging his flail around and around as he marched forward, but would start to do so as he charged, or else prepared to be charged. Just swinging a flail at random a couple of times does not focus the force of momentum into a target.

Briohmar

theunwantedbeing
11-06-2007, 11:28
If the incantation of righteous smiting is used on a unit that has charged that turn(so wont have fought that turn yet) it counts as charging,so all bonuses apply as if it was charging.
It states impact hits are excluded though.

Briohmar,flails dont work from the momentum of charging,its a first round bonus,not a charging bonus.
So it would apply.
Just as a great weapon applies,as would a flail,or an extra hand weapon,or a halbeard..etc etc

Briohmar
11-06-2007, 14:07
If the incantation of righteous smiting is used on a unit that has charged that turn(so wont have fought that turn yet) it counts as charging,so all bonuses apply as if it was charging.
It states impact hits are excluded though.

Briohmar,flails dont work from the momentum of charging,its a first round bonus,not a charging bonus.
So it would apply.
Just as a great weapon applies,as would a flail,or an extra hand weapon,or a halbeard..etc etc

Ah but I said a flail gets its strength from its momentum, which any basic level physisist could explain to you. A fluid weapon has power from its impetus, not from a dead hang. In point of fact, you'd have to be one bad Muth... to hit anyone with a flail from a dead hang, and moreso, you'd have to be a god to keep one whirling for more than a couple minutes. Read what it says about flails, they are extremely heavy to wheel about over your head, which is why the bonus only applies to the first turn, and if you read what I said, instead of just skimming you would note that I mentioned being charged as well. As for your other argument, wow, if you charged, you count as charging. shock, horror, I could never have grasped that, however, if you cast the incantation of smiting on a unit that is already in combat, it does not count as having charged that turn.

theunwantedbeing
11-06-2007, 15:34
He attacks the unit he's with,it doesnt count as an ongoing combat,that makes it the first round of combat,which is where the flails bonus applies.

The incantation.
If the unit charged that turn,it gets the bonuses,it says so in the spell description on page 35 of the tomb kings book.

Festus
11-06-2007, 17:32
Hi

Oh my, unwanted - for once read the damn spell: It counts as an ongoing round, and weapon bonusses do NOT apply. HoC, p.44 :rolleyes:

Festus

theunwantedbeing
11-06-2007, 17:37
Wrong spell festus,I was on about delectable torture,not green fire.

Weapon bonuses do apply if they would in an ongoing combat.ie great weapons and halbeards.

Festus
11-06-2007, 17:44
Delectable torture: No combat, as already said in post #4

Festus

theunwantedbeing
11-06-2007, 17:47
How is it not a combat?

Festus
11-06-2007, 19:35
A combat takes place in the combat phase, hence the name... this is a spell effect. As long as the rules do not tell us to treat it like a round of combat (first or otherwise, like the Green Fire), it is not a combat: You do not follow the combat rules. Most importantly, you do not calculate a Combat Result, you cannot break, et al.

This is even explicitly stated in the spell...

Festus

theunwantedbeing
11-06-2007, 20:51
So you dont get any weapon bonuses at all for it?
or any bonuses that would only happen in the combat phase?
like great weapons,magic weapons,halbeards...etc etc

Either way..the rules to me at least do seem to imply its a combat,but that there is no combat resoloution,which is something different to "not being a combat".

Ganymede
11-06-2007, 22:17
Don't sweat it, I am pretty sure Festus is just blowing hot air with his talk of hypotheticals. Pretty much all similar abilities state that it works akin to combat, so it is a nonissue.

Festus
12-06-2007, 10:23
So you dont get any weapon bonuses at all for it?
or any bonuses that would only happen in the combat phase?
like great weapons,magic weapons,halbeards...etcA GW gives +2 to attacks by the character, a halberd S+1, and so on.

It is just a few weapons that tell us when to apply the bonus (most notably Lances and Flails). You may only count the bonus in these instances - the first round of a close combat - which the spell effect is not.

And this surely is not hot air, Ganymede, but the rules: You can only do what the rules tell you to do. Nothing more. And the rules tell you when to apply the flail bonus. And this is not while affected by the spell.

Easy, innit?

Festus

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2007, 10:41
Delectable torture
"he will immediately attack the unit he is with(no combat resolution,but a panic test may be caused if enough casualties are scored)"

Doesnt say its not a combat at all,merely that there is no combat resolution.

If its not a combat then you dont get any weapon bonuses.
"in close combat warriors fight using their own Strength characteristic to resolve hits,modified as indicated for the weapons they use"

States close combat,not attacks made by the character.

Festus
12-06-2007, 14:05
correct, and a flail is only good in the first turn of combat...

i'll leave it at that now.

Festus

DeathlessDraich
12-06-2007, 15:43
I'de say a character with a flail does give +2 strength when he attacks his unit,its combat,and its not the second round.

Green fire doesnt give the bonus of a choppa as it counts it as an ongoing combat,and you dont get the choppa bonus in ongoing combat.
.

Introducing, or a comparison with, Green Fire does not clarify but confuses.


The spell is very specific in the fact that the combat acts as if it was from an ongoing combat, and not a fresh combat. Therefore, no flail bonuses are used. If such a notation was not there, then the flails would come into play.
How about the incantation of righteous smiting though? Does it have the same wording?

The phrase "ongoing combat" is absent from Delectable torture. **


Ah but I said a flail gets its strength from its momentum, which any basic level physisist could explain to you. A fluid weapon has power from its impetus, not from a dead hang.

Sorry, please don't take umbrage or take this too seriously, but I can't resist commenting:
'Strength from its momentum' is really poor Physics. - Strength is not a term of Physics. You probably mean Impulse or possibly Force.
Fluid weapon - in terms of Physics; fluids flow, Flails cannot! Power from its impetus - absolutely terrible mix-up of terms of Physics.


He attacks the unit he's with,it doesnt count as an ongoing combat,that makes it the first round of combat,which is where the flails bonus applies.

The incantation.
If the unit charged that turn,it gets the bonuses,it says so in the spell description on page 35 of the tomb kings book.

1) 'doesnt count as ongoing combat' and 'makes it the first round' - are interpretations which are as valid as the diametrically opposite interpretation since both phrases are absent in the rules for DT. More below**

2) Don't bring up further complications i.e. TK Incantations please - sounds as if the 2 Incantations, Urgency and Smiting got mixed up.
[However: The similar case of Urgency cast on Skeleton Spearmen followed by Smiting on the same unit, posing the similar problem of fighting in 2 or 3 ranks in the subsequent combat round, is fortunately solved with TK rules]


Don't sweat it, I am pretty sure Festus is just blowing hot air with his talk of hypotheticals. Pretty much all similar abilities state that it works akin to combat, so it is a nonissue.

**Festus has a valid point, a very valid point.

HOC pg 45 DT: "He will immediately attack the unit he is with"

1) First important question: What is an 'attack' in Warhammer Fantasy? [2nd time I've asked this question and I doubt there will be a direct answer - because there is none!]

a) There are 3 types - magical attacks, shooting attacks and combat attacks - or I should say 'close combat attacks' as rules lawyer Atrahasis demands! :D

b) This is obviously a magical attack. It is also a magical attack during the magic phase as opposed to magical attacks in Close combat or shooting since it is generated by a magic spell.

c) However the affected model is forced to use a combat weapon which makes it combat taken out of sequence.

2) "Flails - +2S bonus in the first turn of combat".
This requires another clarification of the phrase *first turn*.

a) Is the *first turn of combat* the same as *the first combat of this turn*?

Very relevant to 7th ed as it is now possible for a unit to fight twice in one turn!*

b) Is the *first turn of combat* the same as *first turn [of combat] in the combat phase*

Ganymede, unwantedbeing favours (a)
while Festus and Briohmar favours (b)


*Applying this to a more relevant scenario - Marauders charging. They are chosen in the combat phase as the first combat to be resolved. They overrun into an enemy unit in combat. This second combat has to be resolved in the same turn by 7th ed rules with the Marauders.

Solution (a) demands that the Marauders should not have their Flail bonus for the second combat

Solution (b) demands that the Marauders must have their Flail bonus for the second combat as well!

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2007, 16:45
I dont see how I am making further complications by stating what similar spells do that have been incorrectly referenced earlier in the thread.

Green fire = subsequent round
Incantation = works like the round you'de fight in the upcoming combat phase
Delectable torture = first round,but not charging.

Flail grants +2 strength in the first round of a combat.
An unengaged enemy who then gets engaged will get his bonus twice in that turn,as its 2 seperate combats.

In your example with marauders they get the bonus in both combats,as they are both the first round of different combats.
Just like if you had a lance you'de get the bonus for both times.
Or if your a chariot you'de generate impact hits both times.

Festus
12-06-2007, 18:05
Hi

Green fire = subsequent round
Incantation = works like the round you'de fight in the upcoming combat phase
Delectable torture = first round,but not charging.
Wow! You are simply making that up! I call that lie and want to see it in print, now and here! :mad:

Festus

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2007, 18:25
It states there is no combat resolution.
It wouldnt state that if you didnt treat it like a combat.
And its clearly not a second round,as he isnt engaged,as the spell doesnt work on engaged units.

Hence it counts as the first round for the purposes of the weapon he uses.

Festus
12-06-2007, 18:29
OK, you just earned a place of honour on my ignore list ... :rolleyes:

Festus

theunwantedbeing
12-06-2007, 18:49
Makes more sense than your "its not a combat" argument.

Briohmar
14-06-2007, 13:05
Sorry, please don't take umbrage or take this too seriously, but I can't resist commenting:
'Strength from its momentum' is really poor Physics. - Strength is not a term of Physics. You probably mean Impulse or possibly Force.
Fluid weapon - in terms of Physics; fluids flow, Flails cannot! Power from its impetus - absolutely terrible mix-up of terms of Physics.

Ganymede, unwantedbeing favours (a)
while Festus and Briohmar favours (b)




You are correct, I did in fact mean force when I said strength. The term fluid weapon is a martial arts term meaning a weapon which is flexible (yes you are correct this is not a physics term), and not rigid, i.e. a flail, Nun chaku (which is by its very nature a flail), three section staff, whip, cat o' nine tails, etc. You forgot to mention my technical usage of Bad Muth... in your discussion of my physics terms, which incidentally "is" a term used by physisists when a large man swinging a flail around his head comes after them for correcting his grammer. :D

BTW this is scary, I seem to be in agreement with Festus more often than not these days, I must be doing something terribly wrong :angel:

As to the rest, I happen to own a flail (or three) and I will tell you that if I suddenly swing it without proper preparation (ie swinging it around my head multiple times to build up "Force") the only person I'm likely to harm is myself, as opposed to say a sword, mace, club, spear, or gret weapon, which are designed more efficiently to use from a dead hang.

Ninsaneja
15-06-2007, 07:29
Question A: Is there any reference to it being a combat, or that he is fighting as if it were a combat? If so, then it will be the first round of combat. If not, he's just whackin them, there's no bonus for taking out your flail and whaling on your dudes.

Statement B: As Delectable Torture does note share similar wording to other spells with similar effects, it is not useful to compare them. Other spells point out that it is done as if it were in a particular round of combat. Delectable torture apparently does not and so is not in combat.